In his own words.

[AZBlue]

"Instead, it is that American spirit - that American promise - that pushes us forward even when the path is uncertain; that binds us together in spite of our differences; that makes us fix our eye not on what is seen, but what is unseen, that better place around the bend."

- - Barack Obama, August 28, 2008, INVESCO Field, Mile High Stadium, Boulder, CO




"The road ahead will be long. Our climb will be steep. We may not get there in one year or even one term, but America – I have never been more hopeful than I am tonight that we will get there. I promise you – we as a people will get there.

There will be setbacks and false starts. There are many who won’t agree with every decision or policy I make as President, and we know that government can’t solve every problem. But I will always be honest with you about the challenges we face. I will listen to you, especially when we disagree. And above all, I will ask you join in the work of remaking this nation the only way it’s been done in America for two-hundred and twenty-one years – block by block, brick by brick, calloused hand by calloused hand."

- - Barack Obama, November 4, 2008, Grant Park, Chicago, IL




I completely understand being upset by the choice of Rick Warren. I don't like it either. But I never expected to agree 100% with everything our new President said and did. As a matter of fact, I knew I wouldn't - and so did he. These are quotes from just two of the more famous speeches, but this was something he repeated often.

Most of all though, I will never understand hoping the President-Elect "fucks off;" rescinding all support of him and his administration based upon a one-minute prayer from one person among many participating in the ceremony; and above all, assuming Obama's supposed opinion on gay rights, abortion rights or any other issue based upon another person's beliefs. Isn't that what the GOP tried to do to Obama with Rev. Wright? Bill Ayers? Tony Rezko? The "evil" ACORN? And, currently, Rod Blagojevich?

Go ahead, refuse to listen and flame away if you want. I don't care, I'm just trying to insert a little logic and perspective into this discussion.

[kid a]

1. Well said. K&R

[Critters2]

2. When does that "I will listen to you" part start? nt

[AZBlue]

3. See, you're not the only one he's listening to. That's what many seem to have forgotten.

Nothing in Obama's history or previous actions give anyone reason to doubt his support of the gay community as he outlined all along - but that doesn't mean he won't listen to others. The man's a natural debater and loves the chance to make his case and perhaps even change minds.

Listening to and following the advice of others are two completely different things.

[NWHarkness]

9. That's just not so

The Donnie McClurkin affair raised these same issues.Obviously, the concerns expressed by the GLBT community carried no weight with Obama, as he is doing the same thing again.

[AZBlue]

12. He always made his support of the GLBT community clear and it hasn't changed.

I think that on this issue, and I fear others, people didn't really listen to what Obama was saying and assumed things without any basis. Just like they assumed he wouldn't invite people from all sides of issues to participate in the Inauguration or the government, despite the fact that inclusiveness was always a key point for him.

I'm not excusing Warren's beliefs - I'm simply pointing out that Obama's been saying the same thing about open discourse all along.

[Critters2]

27. Actually, you are excusing Warren's beliefs. nt

[AZBlue]

42. Actually, I'm not.

Don't presume to tell someone else what they are or aren't doing. It's rude and it, at least in this case, makes you very wrong.

[Critters2]

50. The problem is, I can read. And what I read was excusing Warren. nt

[AZBlue]

52. Your interpretation of it might be that, but that's your problem, not mine.

[riderinthestorm]

58. So if you are not excusing Warren's heinous beliefs, post it.

How do you square Warren's heinous beliefs with your post?

He's an obvious bigot. He's condemned working women AND Jews. You think you've made your case - mycritters and I disagree.

For the record, I think picking Warren indicates that Obama is pandering to the crassist political agenda trying to woo evangelicals. But they won't be fooled. They KNOW (sic) that gays are evil, sinful and deserving of scorn cause Warren tells them so. There's noone to win amongst the Warren crowd. There's no negotiating with this group. It's absolutely black and white. There is NO political gain to be had within the RR with this. If you knew anything about the RR, this would be obvious.

I don't see any "win" for Obama with this move. Only Warren "wins" as his heinous views are endorsed by the POE Obama by assigning him this prestigious role.

[Joe the Revelator]

5. Unless you believe the sun rises and sets in your bedroom...

he is listening, to the entire country, and trying to please more then just the group that you feel you are most associated with.

[AZBlue]

10. Exactly!

And it's an unenviable position to be in, one I'd never want. But I never expected the intolerance and hate - what we're supposedly railing against - to come first from the blue side of the aisle.

[Critters2]

18. Bullshit. He's made it clear where the glbt community stands in his "entire country".

In the back, asked to be quiet.

[Joe the Revelator]

20. How so?

Aside from also reaching out towards Evangelicals, like he always said he would, what piece of legislation has he proposed that will put GLBTs in "the back"?

[AZBlue]

22. In what way?

Seriously, please back that up with a logical and factual explanation.

[Neecy]

43. our bedroom?

Gee, most of us live in entire homes. What happens in our lives doesn't entirely take place in our bedrooms.

Jesus Christ. Yeah, it's all about sex. Love never enters into it.

[firedupdem]

4. Thanks! I can read those words over and over again! n/t

[NWHarkness]

6. "I will listen to you"

It's great that he feels that way.I wish more people did.

He has seriously offended many of his most ardent supporters, and now insult is being added to injury by the jeers of those who see the GLBT community not as a part of the progressive movement, but as a burden on it. I hope he does listen, and realizes his error in giving validation to a hatemonger.

[AZBlue]

8. Oh, I'm quite sure this is a learning experience for him.

He's a smart, smart man.

On the flip side, we should also go about this more intelligently and learn from this - aren't we currently just giving Rick Warren, a man the vast majority of Americans have never heard of and don't know what he stand for, millions and millions of dollars of free advertising and PR?

[NWHarkness]

11. He didn't learn from McClurkin

And I don't think the amount of attention he is getting now is anything like what he will get standing in front of the US Capitol on Inauguration Day.

[AZBlue]

14. What do you mean?

I'm not challenging your statement, just asking for clarification - I'm not sure what you meant by "anything like what he will get standing in front of the US Capitol on Inauguration Day."

[NWHarkness]

16. Allow me to restate

In my opinion, The attention being paid to Warren now because of this controversy is minor compared to the amount of publicity he will generate for himself by taking part in the Inauguration.

[MADem]

17. Sure he did--he learned that McClurkin brought in the haters.

So then, he signed up Bush's pastor, Kirbyjon Caldwell, the guy who married Jenna and that dorky Henry, who runs Gay Cure Rehabs, to campaign for him.

He learned.

Now he's bringing the biggest headliner in the Fundy Universe onboard. This Pastor Rick guy will probably be able to deliver more votes than Obama will lose by tossing those pesky, demanding gays overboard.

All Obama has to do is give Pastor Rick a platform, and let him come by the White House every so often, like a 21st Century Billy Graham.

Quid pro quo.

It's easier than working to provide equal rights for all Americans, certainly.

[NWHarkness]

23. Gee, is there a pattern there?

I guess if we notice one, we are the ones being hateful and intolerant.

[AZBlue]

24. Get real.

[MADem]

30. Yeah, because none of that stuff happened. Ooops--slight problem--it DID happen. NT

[NWHarkness]

32. McClurkin has been brought up several times now

And you've not said a word in refutation.

You want real, here's real.

The Obama campaign announced that McClurkin, a well known anti-gay bigot, would speak at Obama campaign events.

The GLBT community raised their voices in complaint.

Obama replied that he understood their concern, but he felt it was important to reach out to the "religious" community. He assured us that McClurkin was only giving an invocation, it had no political significance.

When the date came, McClurkin used the opportunity to issue an anti-gay rant from the stage of the Obama rally.


Cut to six months later...

The Obama staff announces that Warren, a well known anti-gay bigot....

[AZBlue]

41. And if Warren uses his one minute to say something homophobic, I'll be the first to complain.

But I'm not going to assume anything, I'll wait and see.

Also - do you have a link to McClurkin's comments at Obama's rallies? (that's not a challenge, I'd actually like to see them). Thanks!

[Clio the Leo]

7. Thank you. NT

[MADem]

13. In his own words, eh?

http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/lesbianactivism/p/BarackObama.htm

"I'm a Christian. And so, although I try not to have my religious beliefs dominate or determine my political views on this issue, I do believe that tradition, and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman."

[AZBlue]

15. Yes, those are his own words. And he's always said that.

He made his stance on LGBT issues very, very clear. I'm not saying I agree with them entirely - I'm saying Obama hasn't changed his mind or his tune on anything. He's always said that the marriage question should be left to states and that civil unions and equal rights should be available to all. And he's always said he will talk with and meet with those who agree with him on issues as well as those who don't agree with him. And he's always said he would include everyone and be President to all Americans - and that it meant no one would ever agree with every decision he made.

[Critters2]

21. There's a thread in glbt pointing out that none of us who e-mailed change.gov

about this issue have gotten any response at all. I don't think he's listening.

[AZBlue]

25. I've e-mailed on a variety of issues and haven't gotten responses.

Were you really expecting responses to every post?? How many people do you think are working on that site??

[MADem]

29. Geez, not even an auto response? How tacky. NT

[AZBlue]

36. Not tacky at all - I'd rather they focus on creating a government.

[MADem]

49. An auto response, though, takes no "effort"--it's like a vacation message.

It says "Thank you for contacting us, we can't answer every message, but your ideas are important...blah, blah, blah."

It costs nothing. No "focus" is needed, either.

It makes the organization appear halfway professional, though.

[MADem]

28. I agree that he's made his stance clear. But his acolytes didn't.

They deliberately muddied the waters, they nudged and winked, they tried to tell people what Obama "really" meant, and they continue to so do even now.

"Oh, he's triangulating."

"He doesn't mean it--he's only doing it to save the planet. He has to kick the gays in order to get GOP support to stop global warming."

"The DLC is MAKING him do it."

"He's a victim of dark forces."

When none of that works, they resort to "Oh get over it, you whining gays. It's not the most important issue!"

I'm not gay, but I think when you screw over one human, you screw over all of us.

I suppose if you were a gay guy who couldn't marry your foreign partner and couldn't get a visa for him because you have no federal protections, watching your child molesting heterosexual neighbor import his third teen wife from an impoverished southeast asian nation, you'd think the issue was important and you'd feel like a second class citizen.

I'm guessing if you were a gay widower who just buried your husband in Massachusetts who had to make do on your crappy, less generous social security benefits, instead of being able to tap your dead HUSBAND's higher benefits based on higher wages, like any WIFE could do, because Obama won't give you federal protection, you'd think the issue was important.

This is NOT just about the word "marriage" versus civil unions. It's about federal protections that accrue under the federal definition of the word marriage. Letting the states do it does NOT result in federal protections for gay couples. Obama is turning his back on our fellow citizens, and it's wrong.

[AZBlue]

38. Look, you've been against Obama since he announced his candidacy.

For that reason, it's hard not to see that you're simply using this issue as a way to spill out all your hate and vitriol that you've had to bottle up since he won the nomination. It's a shame really and I hope you figure out a way to deal with the fact that this man is going to be our President for 8 years and he's going to be fantastic. Peace.

[MADem]

51. "Using this issue" my ass. It was "this issue" that knocked me off the fence.

I was undecided for the longest time, and the archives demonstrate that.

When Obama did the Gospel Tour Hate Fest, and Caldwell and McClurkin got out and stumped for him, it was obvious that he was dogwhistling the gayhate vote. To me, that wasn't "change we can believe in." That was "pandering to hatred in the name of God."

THAT's when I decided that I couldn't vote for Obama.

So take your "spill your hate and vitriol" comments--which are fiction and falsehoods that you have made up to defend the indefensible-- and shove them up your ass. Had Obama not vitriolicly and deliberately used homophobia as a campaign tool, I wouldn't have been so disgusted.

What's a shame is that you're so blinded by The Messiah's Glory that you can't see that he's sitting right next to George Bush on this issue. Or, you just don't CARE about equal rights for all Americans.

It's a mark of real selfishness, the inability to empathize. I'm not gay, but when you deny one group human rights, and symbolically give them the back of your hand by providing a place of honor to someone who wishes them ill, you lose the moral high ground, and you join the ranks of the craven and power hungry.

This was a massive mistake on Obama's part. Getting mad at me for pointing it out doesn't change that fact.

Power corrupts. We'll just have to see how badly it does.

[AZBlue]

53. Welcome to my Ignore List - I don't pander to bullshit like yours.

Not on an ongoing basis that is. I clearly remember you from the beginning of the election cycle and I remember all your previous rants too - I stand by my summation of your childish behavior, then and now. You were one of the longest standing members on my Ignore List before and I realize now that you should have never, ever come off it. I won't be making that mistake again - I welcome differing opinions and discussions, but I prefer logical and mature dialogue with adults.

[MADem]

59. How very adult of you. Toss insults, refuse to engage substantively, and then, when

your immaturity is displayed for all to see, whine like a stuck pig, and hit that Ignore button in a fit of Pout-rage.


There are archives here, you know. Characterizing discussion that includes facts and cites as "rants" is a lazy way of saying "Nanny nanny boo boo" because you don't happen to share my opinion and you have absolutely no good rebuttal to reasoned argument whatsoever. It doesn't make you "right" and it doesn't mean you have a decent argument when you run away like that--because you don't. If you did, you'd present your views, instead of direly suggesting false characterizations about what I've had to say in the distant past.

If you could handle a decent discussion, you wouldn't run away and hide behind an IGNORE button. You don't want a discussion, though, you want an AMEN chorus. I refuse to oblige you.

Cluck, cluck, run along, now. Have a nice life, there, don't lose too many feathers in your travels.

[kid a]

19. i bought you a star to help you get through the difficulty of the next 8 years..

[AZBlue]

26. That was very kind of you!!

:toast:

[MADem]

31. Geez, that was very kind of you.

Thank you so much. You didn't have to do that, but I do appreciate your kindness and generosity.

[madmadmad]

33. AND IN HIS OWN ACTIONS, HE HAS GIVEN A BIGOT A NATIONAL FORUM, AND A TACIT ENDORSEMENT

AND YES, I'M STILL YELLING.

[AZBlue]

39. Good luck with that....

...you're gonna need it!

[Undercurrent]

34. .

Happy to kick and recommend.

:kick:

We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature. - Lincoln

[rusty fender]

35. His words mean nothing!

Here's one person who canvassed for him and gave him money, but who is tired of the empty rhetoric. I have lost all respect for Obama. He can ask Warren and his congregation for support from now on; let them go door-to-door for him. He has lost me.

[AZBlue]

40. You've changed your support based upon this one decision? Oh really?

Please, neither of us are that stupid.

[Bluebear]

37. Words.

[AllentownJake]

44. That's nice

however the squeaky wheel gets grease and unil he invited the bigot the wheel wasn't squeaking as loudly. His problem not mine. So forgive some of us for making noise.

We aren't in campaign mode anymore and I can disagree with him on issues and yes, if he continues down a total centrist path and throws certain members of the democratic coalition under the bus over the next 4 years because its politically expedient for his percieved political interest I will be involved in another campaign (congressional, Senatorial, State Rep) in 2012 because that was not change I can believe in.

[AZBlue]

45. My OP was not intended for those "making noise."

I don't agree with the Warren pick either.

My OP was targeted at the insanity of dropping all support for Obama based upon one decision that someone might not agree with because that was going to happen at some point. There's a lot of people here who seem to be delusional and who felt that everything Obama was going to say and do was going to be 100% ok with them. He's never changed his stance on GLBT rights and he's never changed his stance on inviting differing opinions to the table. That's who we supported, that's who we elected and that's who we got. If some DU'ers were kidding themselves, that's their issue, not Obama's and not ours.

[AllentownJake]

47. Right now is the equivalent on here as right after the PA primary

when no one was absolutley sure who would win and Clinton supporters and Obama supporters were both screaming they would never support the other. Based on exit polling it didn't happen.

Its also a warning of what might be occuring in the future via his policies. This isn't occuring in a vaccuum alot of people were alarmed by the cabinet picks and lack of representation of people that started the Obama movement. Alot of these people have been biting their toungues and can't attack certain Secretaries effectively but Rick Warren can be a summation of all their frustration as it represents the triangulation Bill Clinton did that they fear is occuring again.

So try to keep that in mind.

[AZBlue]

55. People are calling for his impeachment and he's not even President yet.

And I'm not talking about the insane GOP.
This is FAR WORSE than the primaries.

As for people who have been biting their tongues - well, that's my point in a way. I think some people either pretended Obama would just magically become something they wanted, something he never said he'd become, or they just didn't bother to look into what his beliefs were and what his stands were on issues and just assumed he'd be just like them. That's their problem and, to put it bluntly, their stupidity.

I fully supported Obama then and still do - but he was never the perfect candidate to me. There are several issues on which I wholeheartedly disagree with him - LGBT rights is one of them. But I knew he was the right person for now and that no candidate is ever perfect. I still know that today.

Additionally, using Rick Warren as an outlet for that frustration is only hurting the issue. Let's consider how much free PR & advertising Warren has gotten in the last week. Most of America didn't even know who he was before this past week and wouldn't have remembered his name come January 21st if there had been a smarter reaction and one that didn't damn Obama for simply trying to bring together differing sides. It reminds me of Democratic campaigns from the past - in an attempt to bring light to an issue, we've only helped strengthen that issue. It's self-defeating and it's absurd.

[Touchdown]

46. Since when is Mile High in Boulder?

How much else did you get wrong?

[Bluebear]

48. :)

[AZBlue]

56. Yes, I realized that was wrong but it was too late to change it. Rest assured, that's the only wrong

thing in my OP. :)

[AtomicKitten]

54. Warren's inclusion was tone-deaf, but I'm going to judge Obama on his policies.

Policies actually affect peoples' lives for years.

K&R :hi:

[AZBlue]

57. Oh, there you go with logic and rational thinking!

We don't do that here, sorry.

:hi: