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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 02:38 AM
Original message
Dear Pastor Warren
I know that your not a pastor but I am humoring you.

Pastors have an all consuming passion about the pain of the person that they are encountering. Your a mega church preacher but you like to wear the appearance of a pastor so we will go with that.

Pastors don't care about the arbitrary lines that divide people they are concerned about pastoring to the pain that life has delivered them. It requires the kind of Ich-Du (I-Thou) relationship of Buber. (I know that guys like Buber never made it to the halls of Fuller so here is the cliff notes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Buber).

When you compare people who have been in committed relationships for decades and have raised happy children to pedophiles or incest participants you are not establishing an I-Thou relationship.

It does go down with the superficial folks at Saddleback. These are the folks that are worried about
http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/home/bibleqanda/index.html

- the color of Jesus eyes
- Is my name in the “Book of Life”?
- Will we judge angels?
- Will our pets go to Heaven?

And of course the all critical question of the ages, "Should a tithe be based on gross or net".

But Pastor Warren, (I just find 'But Mega Church Preacher Warren' to be somewhat counterproductive) I have searched your website and can find not a single question about;

The Christian response to an unjust war?
What is an unjust war?
Does God approve of Torture?

Well your on a bigger stage now and your pseudo intellectual two step may impress the pseudo intellectuals at Fuller (although I don't think even the Fuller Professors are happy with your use of 'Supernatural' as an explanation of Biblical Revelation - getting a little close to Joseph Smith for most intelligent Christians) and in the spirit of "reaching across the aisle" I wanted to give you an assist as you prepare for the invocation of January 20th.

Given that you have become so detached I thought it would be helpful for you to concentrate on giving the Invocation to three particular people. It will help you contextualize the kind of people that you need to reach if your going to be seen by the people outside of your narrow little world as an intelligent person.

Focus on these three people

1) Michael Schiavo.

You will remember Michael. Turns out Michael put on a Herculean effort to find the best medical experts in America to help his wife. He used up all of his resources and spent years in patient care for her. When the best medical experts in the world were absolutely convinced that she was brain dead and with the blessing of his in laws (who would later abandon him and sell their list of well wishers to pro life groups for a sizable sum) he picked up his life and started another family. With his common law wife he still maintained a daily vigil of care and affection. When all hope was gone and he wanted to keep his promise to Terri to help her end her life in dignity you took the low low road.

You called him a Nazi.

You stated that his actions were akin to Nazi atrocities and that he was probably motivated by keeping her silent out of his own self interest.http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0503/22/lkl.01.htm http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7286474/.

Following her passing and an autopsy it was proven that Michael and his doctors were in fact absolutely right and that your pronouncements were slanderous. You have never apologized or retracted these shameful acts. As you say pride is the most difficult sin.

Pride is what keeps you from being a real pastor.

2) My niece 'Pin'.

She died of AIDs and I know that you are proud that your "Church has done more than any church in the world about AIDS". The problem is Pastor Warren that she didn't die of AIDS she died of shame. There would have been drugs that I could have bought her had I known. She lives in Thailand and the drugs there are very cheap. She got AIDS from her husband who also died. You see when you compare homosexual activity with incest and pedophilia and call it a sin you continue the stigma against those people, and the people who share the disease that is synonymous with homosexuals would rather die than admit they are sick.

Pin was 19 she was feisty and a handful. She wasn't a great student but had a great smile and she was loved.


3) My brother-in-law 'Som Yod'.

Som Yod grew up in an isolated Thai village without electricity and without any outside cultural influences of any kind. There was no awareness of homosexuality or any gay people in any of the local villages. Now since the age of 3 Yod refused to wear boys clothes. They tried and tried. The tried to spoil him, they tried to encourage him. When he reached 6 and was supposed to go to school he was beaten every day for a year. He never went to school.

Now that little boy did not choose the confusion that he found himself in. If you really think that homosexuality is a choice and not the reality that people find themselves in then you are ignorant. However I think that you do know that is the case and you also realize that if you let this thread unwind it will result in a complete unraveling of your polished up fundamentalism.

Well he is grown now. Now that his mother has passed he is the sweetest person I have ever met on 4 continents. He has never said a negative word about another human being, although he does poke gentle fun at folks from time to time. I can't imagine a person who would be a better parent or life partner. As his Pastor can you help him? Can you feel his pain?

After all if a little boy doesn't have a clear direction on his sexuality at the age of 3 and it isn't his fault then the idea that there is a clear purpose that everyone in the world is born to would fall apart. The "Purpose Driven Life" would be exposed. Then again anyone who has absorbed the Holocaust realizes that your image of a benevolent God working a web of individual plans is, well crap.

In the spirit of reaching across the aisle I give you these three anchors to help you establish Buber's 'I-Thou' relationship.

Keep them close while you ponder what message of inclusiveness and hope that you can deliver a message that will match 1/100,000ths of President Elect Obama's.

If you find these three too challenging to meet in an honest dialogue you have an alternative. You can defer the invitation. You can say that you are doing it out deference to those that have been wounded and hurt. Trust me this is your best move. Even your supporters will think you were classy for it.

Of course I know that it was too great canyon for you to cross, that 5 weeks just isn't enough time to retrain yourself into a real pastor.

That's alright Pastor Warren I won't tell anyone it will be our secret.


Sincerely,



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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. grantcart that's one fine letter...
K & R
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. thank you mad maddie
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 02:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yup, he's a con artist.
I think your assessment of protestant ministers generally, however, is pretty charitable.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. good ones are a vanishing breed
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 04:12 AM
Response to Original message
5. Wow, excellent.
Did you send it to him?
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I will on Monday
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 04:14 AM
Response to Original message
6. Bravo! Proud to recommend this one! n/t
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Thank you
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
7. grantcart, I'd like to say a word or two about the friends in your circle.
I'm jealous of them.


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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Old Crusoe you are my circle of friends

if your not sharing in the struggle your just an observer
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. I'd love to take that compliment, but it belongs to many others
long before it ever reaches me.

You are both keen observer and noble struggler, and your posts on this site aren't just effective; they gleam.

Thank you.
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crappyjazz Donating Member (886 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
9. That's amazing
thank you for sharing it
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Thanks crappy
somehow that doesn't sound right
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ThisThreadIsSatire Donating Member (697 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. Do the People Who Want the Signs All Over Actually Read the 10 Commandments?
Is it just me, or do a lot of churches drain their congregation's spirits almost as fast as their wallets?

But I digress...

Exodus 20:6, which falls right in the middle of the passage outlining the 10 Commandments, reads that God will show: "...steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments." Please note, homosexuality is not addressed in the 10 Commandments.

And as far as calling homosexuality a choice, isn't it ironic that the same people who reject the science that shows otherwise embrace the science that put the %-key on their calculators and cash registers. Curious indeed.

Go get'em grantcart, and thanks for educating me about this guy.

p.s. Hope Obama isn't standing too close to him. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a bolt of lightning...
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
14. One of those posts that just arrests one's attention.
A real gem among the landslide of forgettable words on the topic of Rick Warren.

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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. thanks JeffR
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Neecy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
16. outstanding
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. thanks neecy
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
17. thanks for this, grantcart,
Bless your pointy little head.

:hi:
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #17
26. thanks friend
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Lisa0825 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
18. Grantcart, you are wonderful.
You have such a fabulous way of taking words and spinning them into a meaningful message.

:pals:
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
19. I wonder if he really believes the stuff he says or if it's all totally an act.
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TK421 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
20. I love it...very well written
of course, the dear Pastor will not write you back....he has no intelligent responses to your questions; if he does, indeed write back it will probably be some line of bullshit that we are all used to hearing. " Blah,blah,blah...yes, you are correct, thank you for your concern"

The guy doesn't care!
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give-me-liberty Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
21. bravo dear sweet friend
you have captured our struggle into a personal dialogue.

I support you 100%.

love and hugs for the LGBT struggle which you outline with grace and dignity.

i'm honored to know you
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. welcome to DU
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
22. K&R
Thank you.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. thanks Finnfan
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
27. Dear Pestor Warren, get off out planet!
:hi:




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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
28. This, by far, is the BEST thing I have ever read on DU
Thank you!
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:46 PM
Original message
thank you
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. thank you
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
31. .
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 02:44 AM
Response to Original message
32. nice letter!
well thought out.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. thanks
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 03:14 AM
Response to Original message
34. K and R. I am starting to hate this guy more an more and more! nt
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. well then I have done my job lol
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
36. Wonderful letter. Did you send it to him? nt
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. yes
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greenbird Donating Member (432 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
37. Beautiful
Just beautiful
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
38. Great letter
Warren is a carnival barker, devoid of empathy.
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
39. That is one great letter!
Right on point, grantcart.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. thank you and welcome to DU
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
42. I dont disagree with your sentiments grant
But we are all imperfect and largely products of our environment. I hope neitherr you nor I is ever held accountable for every word we utter as I am quite sure there will be huge hate fests directed at us for one reason or another. Probably way larger hate clubs for me than you but just the same....
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #42
47. Fair enough

but lets go back to real basic stuff.


The guy has a PHD in Theology.


He now states that the Bible revelation is "supernatural". The idea that any part of the experience is "supernatural" has no biblical or theological basis in the histoical church. He has gone off the reservation and completely invented his own approach to the bible. That is what is aggrevating about him.

The scholarship on the authoriship of the Bible is very well done and before he passed even Fuller he would have had to have passed an exam that describes, for example, the editing of Genesis from three sources. But he gets his pulpit and just pretends that none of that exists, in other words he just makes up shit. That's what is so aggravating about this guy. He is the pastoral equivalent of Senator McCarthy. He just makes it up so that he can get good press and get ahead of the Evangelicals.

I have good friends who are conservative and moderate evangelicals -- they don't lie -- they admit the limitations of the Biblical record.

Warren starts out accepting evolution and gradually rejects it, he purposely dumbs down his message.


The examples I cited from the website were taken verbatim. In the midst of war he welcomes the question of what color is Jesus eyes but brings out not one ethical issue that the nation faces.

Even his stance on Aids is counter productive, he wants to raise awareness of the issue but then deomonizes gays thereby making it harder to get people tested and get people on treatment.

And here is the big issue, so he is wrong, he never apologizes or corrects himself even when the scientific evidence is absolutely without question as in the Schiavo case. It is ethical hit and run and malpractice all at the same time.

But here is the real clincher. Suppose that you are in a gay family and your children hear the statement that relates homosexuality to pedophilia. Imagine your child coming to you and asking you what pedophilia is. Imagine having to explain to him how some people equate what you are with venal crimes.

If either you or I got a platform that big we would never be so careless as to cause that kind of pain.

Peace
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
43. Very powerful words. Thank you.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #43
49. thank you
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
44. joyfully kicking
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 03:13 AM
Response to Original message
45. kick
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 03:42 AM
Response to Original message
46. kick
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 03:47 AM
Response to Original message
48. kick
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
50. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours
So, a kick for this very moving letter.

Best wishes to you and yours, grantcart, wherever you happen to be spending this week.

NYC_SKP
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. and to you NYC_SKP

thank you
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illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-08 03:08 AM
Response to Original message
52. Beautifully brilliant. I may have to stalk all your posts!
I have spent the last week trying to inject a few realities about the "Good Book" for my family bent on embracing it as the "Word".

I, too, want to know what they do with those years of study in theology. Do they know nothing of the Council of Nicea? The Nag Hamadi collection? All those popular manuscripts when Christianity was forming?

Not to mention that anyone who has studied another language knows the difficulty of translating something literally and being able to be true to the author's original intent.

Then to try to tie it up all neatly and tell people you are certain of the message while ignoring blatant contradictions and inaccuracies is,... well, a con game. A con game that breeds ignorance and hatred.

Thanks. Your post is DU at its best.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-08 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
53. I have one answer, re: Tithing from Gross or Net: Whichever is more from one's pocket.
Edited on Fri Dec-26-08 08:41 AM by WinkyDink
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-08 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
54. K, R and Thank you.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
55. Kick. n/t
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
56. Excellent thread AND Martin Buber mentioned! Life is good.
:thumbsup:
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