To the gay guys & gals at DU: I've changed my mind.

[Redstone]

I wrote an impassioned post here a while back, saying that we should hold back on criticizing President-Elect Obama until after he was inaugurated.

I hereby retract that statement.

His decision to let that racist, bigoted, anti-gay-rights fundie asshole speak at his inauguration DESERVES to be bitched and complained about, I hope to the level that makes him reconsider that decision.

You all have every right to be livid about this. It is my fervent hope that you (and we who are not homosexual ourselves, but believe that human rights are not reserved to the heterosexuals) will put enough pressure on him to make him reconsider his poor choice.

Redstone

[Maven]

1. Thank you.

K/R

[JohnnyLib2]

40. Aye.

K & R

[LeftCoast]

2. Glad to hear

[IndianaJones]

4. that poll is open.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7995229&mesg_id=7995229

[Yes We Did]

8. That thread complains about everyone complaining...

not just about Warren.

[IndianaJones]

10. uh huh.nt.

[LeftCoast]

18. Apparently some truths are too much for DU

:shrug:

Though I would like to know what rule I broke...not that they'll ever tell me.

[IndianaJones]

19. too blunt maybe? nt.

[LeftCoast]

20. As far as I know blunt isn't against the rules

Sure didn't get any of the numerous pro-warren posts locked.

[Yes We Did]

6. I haven't seen any of those.

I keep hearing about them, but I haven't seen any. Links?

[zeemike]

37. Here is a link to a "pro Warren" thread that got locked

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4688671

It was not pro Warren but an attempt by me to explain why I was not all up in arms about him...but that is all it takes to get flamed.
It seems that if you do not express outrage at him you are a homophobia bigot and many other names.
And it has caused me to re assess my support for GLBT causes.
I don't like being bullied into things.

[JohnnieGordon]

65. And the mod made it clear it wasn't locked for your OP, but that it'd become a flamewar

The thread wasn't closed for what you said, which is what you were trying to imply.

And it has caused me to re assess my support for GLBT causes."

Oh do tell, you only care about equality as long as the minority group in question behaves as you see fit. It's against the rules to oppose full equality for gays, but if it's what you believe, you should have the courage of your convictions and start detailing your new-found lack of support for gay rights.

[zeemike]

66. It became a flame war not because of what I said but

Because I said it.
And yes I did re assess my support for GLBT causes because that showed me that some of them here are more interested in silencing free expression than they are with civil rights.
But that has not been my experience in the real world. I have never been called such names with the Gays And lesbians I have known in real life. And I have always felt free to express myself with them.

[JohnnieGordon]

70. Oh I'm all for your reassessment, I just wanted you to start detailing it

Get into some specifics about your lack of support for GLBT causes. You see, I wanted to encourage you to be specific because it's against DU rules to oppose gay equality, and if you do oppose it, you should be tombstoned. But you'll have to be more specific first. Don't be shy now.

[zeemike]

77. Well if Skinner wants to tombstone me for what I have said

Then so be it.

But as far as subjects concerning gay rights is concerned I will no longer post in those threads and centennially not respond to any name callers.
It seems no that you want to hold Skinners rules as a threat to intimidate, and I don't play that game aether.
But if DU wants to descend into the taking of loyalty oath I am out of here anyway because it is a fascist tactic to control free speech and thought.

[AntiFascist]

85. I'm sorry you got bullied....

please understand that a lot of gay people have to face homophobia all of their lives, and this issue is enough to push us over the top enough to become emotionally charged and say things that are not always rational.

I agree that GLBT issues should not be front and center at the inauguration or at the beginning of Obama's term, but whoever came up with the plan to use Warren at the invocation obviously did not anticipate the visceral reaction that would result.

[Truth2Tell]

86. if getting pressured or flamed on a message board

is really enough for you to re-assess your "support" for GLBT issues, then obviously you never really supported them in the first place.

Some people aren't "all up in arms" about racism either. Mostly they live in the South - but you can find them all over.

[IndianaGreen]

3. Thank you, Redstone

No one can speak for an entire community, but I am certain that are a grateful for all the wonderful words of support from heteros such as yourself on this important human rights matter.

I only wish Harvey Milk were alive today to speak up for all of us.

[flvegan]

5. Well stated, sir.

[last1standing]

7. Thank you.

It amazes me how many at DU want us to just go quietly into the next four years and accept whatever comes to us, good or bad. I cannot accept that because I've seen what inaction and silence does. I'll not go quietly where people like Rick Warren want me to go.

[Swamp Rat]

9. rAmen!

[grantcart]

16. a masterpiece

[avaistheone1]

11. That is change I can believe in.

You made my evening Redstone. I am not a gay person either.

[KitchenWitch]

12. Excellent post.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

13. K&R!

Well said, and I agree...

[Starry Messenger]

14. k&r good sir

[az chela]

15. I agree with everything you said

[EFerrari]

17. I didn't know about this guy either and it took a while to get it.

Great post, Redstone.

[Redstone]

23. Thank you, SFK2K. It took me a while to figure out what the

contoversy was, as well, given the firestome of "information" we have to wade through these days.

Redstone

[BeFree]

21. Yeah, sure

Like I'm supposed to believe you now?

Its politics, and it was a brilliant political move. You shouldn't let ill winds blow you around.

[Redstone]

22. I don't get the hostility. What exactly IS your point?

Redstone

[MadMaddie]

34. Hey Tom

You are in fine form this evening.

Hope all is well!!

:hi:

[TomInTib]

24. Oh, go f**k yourself....

you and the horse on which you rode to CT.

Yeah, that's right...

f#*k the horse, too.

Fuck George Walker Bush, too.

Hell, fuck everybody.

Tom

[Redstone]

26. You're in rare form tonight, Tom, my friend. Talk to me if you will, but do it soon,

because I'm about to sign off for the night. The fatigue lies heavy upon me these days.

Redstone

[TomInTib]

30. I'll cast, you can crank...

Down by the bank, there are two old men...

Telling tales

Setting sail

And fishing for whales

Sleep well, Redstone.

Merry Christmas.

You know, the thing we used to wake up to

Wide-eyed

You know

Tom

[Redstone]

97. Damn, I wish I could do that poetry thing as well as you can...

But I can't. However, I do get the gist of it, and I can see us there, indeed.

Not a bad way to spend a tail-end of a pair of ill-advised lives, would it be? Sounds comfortable and restful, and couldn't we, the both of us, use some of THAT?

Redstone

[TomInTib]

33. Last night, I stayed up late

watched the sun rise

heard that early bird call...

ain't it hard, when you fall....


Just trying to keep it between the ditches

That East Texas Moon

is shining down on rooftops

and Beer Joints

Merry Christmas, Redstone,
Tom

[JohnnieGordon]

44. delete

Post incorrectly placed

[xchrom]

25. 13th recommend -- and thank you. nt

[Redstone]

29. You're welcome. It's looking like Mr Obama's "big tent" doesn't have enough

room for you gay folks.

And that's just flat WRONG, especially given his own background.

Just my opinion.

Redstone

[1776Forever]

27. Rick Warren and Women's Issues - The more you know the more you shake your head!

I just found this article looking around the net to see if there was any scuttlebutt on the Inaugural Committee maybe thinking about the Warren decision. WOW - The more you find out about this so called spiritual leader, the more there is to loathe!

Women`s Issues - Rick Warren speaking at Obama's inauguration
This was a question posted for Sonia Pressman Fuentes - 12/19/2008

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Women-s-Issues-3086/2008/12/Rick-Warren-speaking-Obama-2.htm

QUESTION: Hi there. This question is regarding President Barack Obama's decision to ask Pastor Rick Warren to speak at his inauguration. There was quite a lively discussion going on on feministing.com about this, and many were disappointed in and angry with Obama for this, because Warren is known for his extreme right (wing) christian views.

I was reading about him and the church that he founded. They are biblical literalists, who believe that women should not be in leadership positions over men, that women should have a submissive role in marital relationships and should "submit to the authority of men". He is also vehemently opposed to abortion rights and compared gay marriage to incest!

Rick Warren claims that he is not sexist nor are the beliefs espoused by him and his church misoginistic. He said that he believes men and women are equal in value, but that god simply intended for them to play different roles. He claims that it is feminism that has harmed women, by devaluing the traditional role of women which was to be nurturers.

(snip)

ANSWER:

There isn't much I can say because I agree wholeheartedly with everything you wrote. I was aghast to read about it and sent out an e-mail to like-minded friends this morning about it. One guy wrote back saying that perhaps this is a wise political move on Obama's part as he's giving a sop to the right-wingers on this, so he won't have to do it on something more important.

I don't agree at all. I, too, was an Obama supporter but I was always fearful about his views on faith as he espoused such views in speeches. I certainly don't like it and think it's a horrendous choice when there are so many liberal priests, ministers, and rabbis who would have made a better choice.

Women put Obama in office; he doesn't seem properly appreciative of that.

There's been an outcry against it--but I don't expect Obama to change it.

Sonia Pressman Fuentes

............

So now we have another view of Warren to disagree with. Amazing!

[jberryhill]

28. Amen - another convert here /nt

[zulchzulu]

31. Likewise (to be consistent), praising Obama for including pro gay rights Reverend Lowery is needed

Warren is going to do the 1:30 invocation. That's not who I would have chosen, but that's what's going to happen.

Lowery will do the benediction at the end. It will be a wonderful message.

I find that if you are going to be consistent, you need to praise Reverend Lowery's inclusion with the same breath that you might despise Warren.

[last1standing]

32. Would Jesse Jackson cancel out David Duke?

Would the head of the NAACP cancel out the leader of Stormfront?

Lowery is a good man, but by suggesting we need to include praise for Lowery every time we criticize Warren is to suggest some sort of equality or cancellation. As a human being, I believe I have the right to expect that everyone our president honors would be a proponent of human rights - ALL human rights, not just those who look, act, believe and have sex like them. Even one anti-human rights advocate is enough to spoil an entire room of pro-human rights advocates if that person is placed in a position of honor.

[AntiFascist]

38. Why pick two people who have solid opinions on the issue in the first place?

This only serves to polarize people and draw attention to an issue that really should not be at the forefront of Obama's inauguration. Also, Warren is the one getting all the face time on television and promoting his little book. That's why this was such a big mistake, the inauguration should be a time to celebrate the end of the Bush era and the start of something new, not a time to feel disgusted, as many of us do now.

[zulchzulu]

55. So let's give Warren more attention than he deserves like the right wing protests controversy

Right?

Warren is going to say some stupid prayer. The whole thing is a fucking joke anyway.

So why not give him more attention than he deserves so that people DO buy his books, go to his web site and what the hell ever. Right?

All this shit reminds me of how the right wing protested the movie "Last Temptation of Christ" to the point that what tepid support and viewership of the movie instead made it very successful.

The media AND a lot of people protesting asshat Warren NEVER also mention that Lowery, a very vocal supporter of equal rights for all and gay marriage, will also end the ceremonies.

So keep shouting about Warren. It's exactly what Warren wants.

[AntiFascist]

81. The whole thing is a joke anyway?

How wrong you are, Obama's inauguration will be celebrated worldwide as the first time an African-American has been sworn into office in the US, as it should be. The fact that the GLBT community is being slapped in the face in the process is something that I and others will not stand for. Civil rights should be for everyone.

[crappyjazz]

43. Here's a glass of water with some poison in it

Don't worry, I'm sure the part of the water not poisoned will cancel out the part that is.

[JohnnieGordon]

46. I find that gays are worth not being disrepected *any* of the Inaugural choices

I find that gays deserve to have the Inaugural free of any spotlighted professional homophobes. The invocation and benediction should've BOTH been done by someone who respects equality, or at the very least isn't an activist against it.

[Redstone]

64. Aha. Thank you for providing me that perspective, because I didn't know that.

I'll be sure to watch, based on your information.

Thanks again.

Redstone

[MADem]

69. Why is praise required, simply for doing the right thing?

The invocation invokes the Invisible Friend to the party. The benediction thanks the Invisible Friend for coming, and hands out the blessing of the Invisible Friend to those assembled.

I didn't think it is necessary to "praise" people, like little kids getting toilet-trained, for doing the right thing. Isn't that what all of us strive to do in our day to day lives?

Perhaps it's a generational thing. Doing the right thing never used to be something that merited "praise"--it was simply expected of civilized people.

Nowadays, everyone has to be a winner and get a prize just for showing up.

[ThomCat]

35. It is good to hear you say this.

:)

Thank you.

[meowomon]

36. I Feel Stabbed in the Back

I could deal with the whole not wanting to call it marriage thing. I was so proud when he included us on his election night. I sat in a room of my co-workers and cried. I don't get how others don't get what this feels like. We are equated with child molesters. There are death penalties for us in other countries. And now we are expendable again in the Democratic party.

Barack Obama is proving to be a very slick Chicago politician. Bravo Mr.President Elect. You played us well.

[AntiFascist]

39. Thank you Redstone!

This gay DUer very much appreciates your support and that of everyone else who understands why we are speaking out.

[No Elephants]

41. At change.gov, I emailed Obama when I heard about Warren . Yesterday, I read

Obama's full statement defending his choice for the first time. (Until yesterday, I just had the headline--that Obama disagreed with Warren). I found Obama's statement dishonest, so I went to change.gov this morning and emailed about that. I've also made a fresh contribution to HRC, even though I had promised myself no political contributions during December.

And you?

[No Elephants]

42. Oh, just to avoid confusion, that contribution was to HRC as in Human Rights Campaign.

[JohnnieGordon]

45. We know it could never have been a racist speaker, we know gays were singled out as expendable

Obama has assigned us second class citizen status and it's not even the first time (McClurkin), it's part of a pattern.

[polichick]

47. I mentioned in my email to change.gov that they wouldn't have chosen a racist speaker.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[polichick]

49. imo being gay is just as immutable as the color of our skin.

[JohnnieGordon]

50. Fuck you, homophobe. People don't choose to be gay

And there's been plenty of studies that show sexual orientation is an immutable characteristic.

[elkston]

51. Note: I've added more to my original post for clarification. Please read (EOM)

[polichick]

52. In America nobody should have to pretend to be what he or she is not...

The bottom line is that ALL deserve equal rights ~ and we can't stop fighting until ALL of us have them.

[JohnnieGordon]

53. Arguing that one form of bigotry is more important than another is itself a bigoted assertion

Your "clarification" does nothing to change that, and I did alert your post.

[bluedawg12]

78. He doesn't have sense enough to be catious about "comparisons of victimology."

"My attitude is if people are being treated unfairly and unequally, then it needs to be fixed. So I’m always very cautious about getting into comparisons of victimology. You know, the issues that gays and lesbians face today are different from the issues that were faced by African-Americans under Jim Crow. That doesn’t mean, though, that there aren’t parallels in the sense that legal status is not equal. And that has to be fixed. I’m going to be more sympathetic not because I’m black. I’m going to be more sympathetic because this has been the cause of my life and will continue to be the cause of my life, making sure that everybody’s treated fairly and that we’ve got an expansive view of America, where everybody’s invited in and we are all working together to create the kind of America that we want for the next generation." - Candidate barack Obama

Source: 2007 HRC/LOGO debate on gay issues Aug 9, 2007

[uppityperson]

84. I read the edited and still disagree. Now I edit since you are TS'd.

People can pass, whether skin color or sexual orientation.Yes, they can pass and some do. Whether skin hued or sexual orientation or ancestry. Sexual orientation, like skin color, is hardcoded and unavoidable.

Try the copy/pasted/trait substituted thing below:

To expand on this. I do believe people are born black or white. But the black person has a choice as he matures with the knowledge that society's views on his lifestyle are not favorable. He can be defiant and open, yet willing to accept the consequences. Or he can walk a tightrope. Put on the public face of "white" man, but privately pursue his passions. He doesn't even have to lead a false life. He can just play the perpetual white dude with a good tan. Sure, people may ask questions, but unless he just CONFIRMS he is black, no one will bother him.

[Starry Messenger]

87. Wow, I just alerted on that guy 2 minutes ago.

I feel like magic! :D

[Redstone]

101. Well said, uppity, especially to me, who is half American Indian and married to a woman who is

half African. We know about "passing," we do, so your well-reasoned post struck home indeed.

Thank you.

Redstone

[Bluenorthwest]

57. Well I offer that you should try that logic on

the two straight brother who were beaten last week in Brooklyn. One is now braindead. They were mistaken for gay because they had an arm around each other or something.
So these guys, beaten by heterosexual for simply being mistaken for gay, what would you say to them? Were they too defiant about being brothers?
These are actual questions. Answer them.

[elkston]

58. Look, that was horrible and just as bad as racial violence.

But I do believe there is a distinction between violent homophobes (who somehow feel "threatened" by gays), and those who are tolerant, but not 100% accepting.

The latter group becomes restless when one of their own (Obama) unfairly becomes the subject of misplaced GLBT outrage. I know it smacks of "They should know their place", etc. Being black, I totally get that line of thinking and it pisses me off.

But I don't think its as bad as that this time. Its more like, find the RIGHT battle to pursue, and we'll be behind you 100%.

[IndianaGreen]

68. Translation: Sit in the back of the bus and "we'll be behind you 100%."

I am old enough to remember when there was opposition within the Black churches in the North to those involved in desegregation. The old guard was fearful of alienating the majority whites by their support of civil disobedience in the South. They feared losing what little they have been given!

[bluedawg12]

75. Those who are not 100% accepting cannot call Obama one of their own.

"those who are tolerant, but not 100% accepting...becomes restless when one of their own (Obama) unfairly becomes the subject of misplaced GLBT outrage." - elkston
........

Q: : You’ve criticized homosexuality throughout your career. What would you say to your child if he or she were a homosexual?

The answer from Barack Obama after Keyes reply:

OBAMA: Well, to answer the original question, I would love that child and seek to support them. ...I detest the bashing and vilifying of gays and lesbians. Most gays and lesbians are seeking basic recognition of their rights so they’re not discriminated against in employment or renting a house, so they can see their partner in a hospital. These are rights for everybody, not just some people.

Source: Illinois Senate Debate #3: Barack Obama vs. Alan Keyes Oct 21, 2004

........

I think making sure that we don’t engage in the sort of gay-bashing that, I think, has unfortunately dominated this campaign-not just here in Illinois, but across the country-is unfortunate, and that kind of mean-spirited attacks on homosexuals is something that the people of Illinois generally have rejected. - Barack Obama 2004
Source: IL Senate Debate Oct 26, 2004
......

My attitude is if people are being treated unfairly and unequally, then it needs to be fixed ...That doesn’t mean, though, that there aren’t parallels in the sense that legal status is not equal 9for gays). And that has to be fixed.

I’m going to be more sympathetic not because I’m black. I’m going to be more sympathetic because this has been the cause of my life and will continue to be the cause of my life, making sure that everybody’s treated fairly and that we’ve got an expansive view of America, where everybody’s invited in and we are all working together to create the kind of America that we want for the next generation.” - Then candidate: Barack Obama

Source: 2007 HRC/LOGO debate on gay issues Aug 9, 2007

Those who lack 100% tolerance for gays can't call PE Obama one of their own and are in no position to say what is "misplaced outrage" by an oppressed minority and what is not.

[mondo joe]

59. Really lame.

[mondo joe]

60. And so what are Jews in your little hierarchy?

[IndianaGreen]

67. Your ignorance has no boundaries, doesn't it?

Gender identity and sexual orientation are hard coded in the brain.

You are spewing Warren's "lifestyle choice" bogus crap.

[smokey nj]

71. This is one of the most hateful posts I've ever read.

[bluedawg12]

74. PE Barack Obama disagrees with you

"I do not believe being gay or lesbian is a choice." The candidate Barack Obama

Source: Meet the Press: 2007 “Meet the Candidates” series Nov 11, 2007

[sniffa]

83. Are you fucking serious?

:wtf:

[yardwork]

73. Just as racist posts are instantly deleted here and the posters are banned.

Racist posts, anti-semitic posts, those are all handled quickly here. Anti-gay posts, not so much.

[JohnnieGordon]

80. I'm going to feel like a 2nd class citizen here if they don't delete the post I alerted

Saying racism is a higher priority than homophobia, because we have the option of living a fabulous life in the closet. They've had a long time to delete it, it is the weekend and maybe they're swamped with Warren threads. But it's been a while now. Maybe our human dignity is only important-ish.

[JohnnieGordon]

89. They deleted it, even a tombstone too, I'm shocked. Faith in DU definitely renewed..nt

[warrior1]

54. Thank you Redstone

:fistbump:

[Captain Hilts]

56. Obama's not "letting" him speak at the inauguration, he INVITED him. Active case, not passive. nt

[Redstone]

98. Excellent point of distinction, and I thank you for posting it.

Redstone

[EndElectoral]

61. This is like Lincoln asking a pro-slavery minister to speak at his inauguration.

[LostinVA]

62. Thank you, sweetie!!! And from Haruka, too -- k&r

[Forkboy]

63. An example of why I feel criticism should always be not only allowed, but encouraged.

[yardwork]

72. Thank you for your support.

Point of clarification. It's not the decision that is bothering so many of us, it's the attacks on gay people as a result.

I can understand why people have differences of opinion about Obama's decision. What I abhor are the many, many nasty cracks and dehumanizing, dismissive comments toward gay people here. That's what makes me "livid."

[TankLV]

76. Thank you.

Sometimes it takes awhile...

[omega minimo]

79. When men stop calling women GALS gay marriage shall prevail!!!!

:bounce: :party:

[Redstone]

90. Just a figure or speech, for God's sake.

Redstone

[Rockholm]

82. Thank you Redstone.

[LWolf]

88. We all draw our line in the sand at different places.

Mine was way back when he voted to fund the Iraq War, after being "against" it. And McClurkin. And the teacher merit pay thing.

He's only added to my reasons to speak out as time goes on.

[Midlodemocrat]

91. I love you, Redstone. You are the absolute best in every way.

:hug:

[we can do it]

92. Sometimes What Seems Trivial Initially Grows the More You Think About It

The facts pile up, the shit gets deeper. It is a sign of intelligence changing your mind when you have time to mull over facts and feelings.

warmest holidays to you!
:toast:

[bonito]

93. Holding back and pushing forward

Like the tide is how it's done, both a force apposed to the other, but without ether, there is none.

[David Zephyr]

94. Thanks.

.

[John Q. Citizen]

95. Human rights are vital for all of us humans.

[Redstone]

99. Well, yeah, especially because no one has been able to answer this basic question to me:

So, if Johnny gets to marry Joey, or if Suzy gets to marry Sally, EXACTLY HOW does that have a negative effect on the marriage between me and Mrs R? How does it make our marriage less valid, or cheapened in any way whatsoever?

If Johnny and Joey or Suzie and Sally pledge to love and sacrifice for each other the same as Mrs R and I did, that takes NOTHING away from our vows. It's not like there is a finite amount of love and loyalty out there, right?

The whole controversy about "gay marriage" strikes me as one of the most worthless wastes of time we've done in this country since the effort to give Black Americans equivalent civil rights to white Americans in the 1960s.

We should have learned by now that ALL Americans should have equal rights and protection under the law, no matter the reason that they're "different" from the majority.

Some day, we may learn that. And it can't come fast enough for me.

Redstone

[Divine Discontent]

96. thank you much, Redstone. eom

[bullwinkle428]

100. Great post, dude. K&R!