DU has become so wedded to the "Us/Them" mode of thinking that there is nothing else.

[Bonobo]

Face it.

The two-lane, dualistic, "Us VS. Them" thinking that has defined DU for 8 years, and which grew like a mutated lab experiment under the Bush regime, has infected most of our ways of thinking and talking.

Combine with the already powerful tendency for people online to not see each other as people.

Now add to that the fact that text written on a screen is so easy to misread for emotional content, and so easy to pick apart word for word.

Now add the fact that DU was built as a criticism chamber, tempered by the fires of the last 8 years, it has evolved great powers of Snark.

So this is the state of DU.

As Cali put it so cleverly, we are "drowning in shallow water".

No dialectical understanding. No "shades". Just I'm right, you're wrong and oh, by the way you are a (Nazi/One-issue voter/gay-basher/whiner).

As I see it, DU is almost dead. It is on the table, being operated on by some brilliant surgeons, trying to staunch the flow of blood. But the blood is infected. We are the blood and we are infected by hate, intellectual laziness and a profound shortage of empathy.

Is this related to the Warren issue? Yes. But it is deeper, much deeper. It concerns the very nature of political 'discourse" in this doomed country.

[lamp_shade]

1. Actually, it has been comparatively "nice" around here this morning.

[lamp_shade]

12. I spoke too soon.

[NYC_SKP]

102. I hate when that happens...

A very nice and totally positive thread last night (fabulous pics, you know the one), but one member just had to add their snark.

Could have been far worse, I guess, I'm just glad she's back.

Happy Holidays to you and yours, lamp_shade!

NYC_SKP

:toast:

[lamp_shade]

104. Same to you NYC_SKP... and, yes, I'm sooooo happy she's back.

[gater]

2. I've been a donating member for nearly that whole time...

and I hate to say it, but I hear you.

[TechBear_Seattle]

3. Yes, we are drowning in shallow water

The very sad thing is that many here on DU seem to get off by holding others face down in the muck.

[Shiver]

4. We'll survive.

As long as people are posting stupid pictures of kittehs and rants against the DLC, DU will thrive.

[bridgit]

5. That's the way its always been here. Have felt for quite some time...

Us/Them, me/you, cool kids/uncool kids, up/down, back/forth, salt/pepper, etc, etc, etc, round & round & round. If the opposition ever cares to know how easy they need to take it...they'll just snip chunks of lefty-meisms off with the click of their mieces to pieces :(

There's nothing new under the DU sun, though there should be: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPs7-5feq-M

[mwb970]

6. DU sure is a lot less satisfying to read in the mornings than it was.

Wading through all the I-hate-Rick-Warren threads is as much of a nuisance as the Hillary/SOS I-hate-Hillary-and-Bill-too-so-there ones were. Each of these threads has at least one deep back-and-forth subthread with two DUers insulting each other with increasing bile. These are not at all enjoyable for me to read.

I'm afraid that without bush, the only thing we have left to bash here is each other. I'm currently looking for a more "normal" board to participate in going forward. (Suggestions welcome.)

[Bonobo]

8. Perhaps at this point, we should allow in the "other side".

It would stop the in-fighting largely.

Also, I have always suspected that the insularity of this place could not be good in the long run.

[JVS]

98. Knowing the lack of coherence on our side, the other side would run the place over.

[AyanEva]

13. If you find one...

please let me know. :(

[BeFree]

17. mwb...

"Be the change you want to see".... said Ghandi (methinks)

[tomp]

38. i want to be the conscience of the democratic party....

...something it is sorely in need of. sometimes, things are just wrong.

[BeFree]

43. And what conscience does that entail?

Details forthcoming? You must have this all figured out, right?

[ellisonz]

91. Hey! Don't ask hard questions!

:sarcasm:

[tomp]

103. no, don't ask stupid questions.

"what conscience does that entail?" is that even english?

[Kahuna]

95. When you find a board that supports our new Democratic adminstration..

be sure to let me know. I wish I knew how to start one myself.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

7. DU and too many 21st century progressives do not know how to lead, only how to oppose.

Some people just aren't good with authority, either obeying it or holding it themselves. Not everyone should obey authority, and not everyone should lead; that's fine. 21st century progressives haven't had a chance to lead yet in this country; the hint of opportunity is only just around the corner.

Time to find someone to lead.

[Bonobo]

9. We did find someone. A great leader. He is now being gnawed at. nt

[Kahuna]

20. The "left" always gnaw at their leaders. Then they wonder why we

lose power. Not this time. This time we're not going to let that happen.

[ellisonz]

92. Fuckin' A.

:toast:

[Hekate]

106. That's my plan

Glad it's yours too. :thumbsup:

Hekate

[WritingIsMyReligion]

53. I completely agree with you.

:)

[leftofthedial]

10. get over it

shut the fuck up

[Bonobo]

11. Thanks. I needed that. I was feeling a little left out of the discussion. nt

[leftofthedial]

15. ;-)

;-)

Merry Christmas Eve!

[countingbluecars]

14. I have never been a prolific poster,

but I did enjoy coming here to read and learn. The name calling, ganging up, and hate have made it depressing. Perhaps it is time to move on.

[On the Road]

16. I've Just Had to Take a Vacation from DU

and not post on certain topics.

I disagree, however, that this is a doomed country. And it is becoming less partisan under Obama, not more.

[Kahuna]

96. That, I think is the OP's point. Under Obama it's becoming less partisan..

Yet, there are many on the "left" who want it to remain partisan. How fucked up is that? Then, those of us who support bringing the country together get called names and attacked. :wow: Skinner needs to make some decisions about the direction of DU. DU has been a successful experiment. Now that we have finally gained what we have fought for for 8 long years we need to find a way to preserve it. THAT Skinner, should you decide to accept it is your new mission.

[Bonobo]

99. Yes!

[Hekate]

107. Your point is excellent too, Kahuna. Skinner's mission, should he choose to accept it...nt

[FrenchieCat]

18. Yeah. I'm kind of reprioritizing my life right now...

Cause the shit is about to hit the fan. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8030847

[Kahuna]

19. You got it. A lot of people on the "left" do not want a reconciliation

with people who have not agreed with us in the past. There is no middle ground. The middle is for wimps. Ergo, Obama is a wimp. :sarcasm: :banghead:

[mondo joe]

21. You can't reconcile with someone still attacking you. NT

[BeFree]

22. So

You could say we've lived thru a DU version of our own "Shock and Awe"?

[jonnyblitz]

23. you overzealous Obama followers need to learn how to

deal with criticism when your hero ROYALLY fucks up because we ARE NOT GOING AWAY or SHUTTING UP. all of these diatribes against those of us who speak out essentially can be boiled down to three words: "STOP CRITICIZING OBAMA".

Obama is a big boy, he can handle the criticism, it's just too bad many of YOU can't.

[BeFree]

24. We?

Now that's calling the kettle black.

And where we disagree is on this 'Royally' fucked up.
If you can't understand that then maybe you are right, there is no use even discussing it?

[Bonobo]

28. Your over-the-top reply only helps illustrate my point. Thanks. nt

[HamdenRice]

That's not it at all. Please try to understand the following--->

No one is saying that you can't criticize Obama. What many of us are angry about, however, is that there is a deliberate gang attempt to define agreeing with Obama on this as beyond the pale of acceptable discussion.

You think Obama's invitation of Warren was a horrible fuckup. Great. That's your opinion.

I think Obama's invitation of Warren was a brilliant political move. That's my opinion.

I don't define your opinion as unacceptable or beyond the pale. But a small group of DUers is trying to define my opinion as "homophobic" or worse.

It is not beyond the pale to support the Democratic President-Elect on a Democratic web site!

It's not.

It's a difference of opinion.

You cannot win a debate simply by defining your opponent's opinion as evil, when in fact it is not evil.

That's the mistake some of you constantly are making. It convinces no one. So why keep hammering at it?

[mondo joe]

25. Bonobo, you need to learn to disagree without being disagreeable. NT

[davidpdx]

55. And you do that so well with your petty attacks on people

[mondo joe]

56. Accusing your brothers and sisters of petty attacks is not agreeable, David.

Learn to disagree without being disagreeable.

[davidpdx]

58. If you think your attacks are that, then you need to look at

your own behavior. You have been vile toward me and several other posters.

[mondo joe]

59. David, you need to stop ruminating on old disagreements, and be more focused on

welcoming and embracing those with whom you have disagreed.

[davidpdx]

60. I should forget your vile attacks on me and your petty name calling?

Sure, why don't I give you a stick and let you beat me with it while your at it?

[mondo joe]

61. Even if someone has equated you with child molesters and attacked your civil rights, you

should accept them, and stop playing "us vs them" games.

DU is for all DU members, not just those who share your personal causes.

[davidpdx]

63. Again, maybe you should look in the mirror and say that to yourself

Attacking members on DU is against the rules. I have your removed posts to prove it (several) over the last few days.

[mondo joe]

64. But I'm saying it to you, David. It applies to you. Learn to disagree without being

disagreeable.

[davidpdx]

65. I'm saying it back to you, stop attacking people

with your vile behavior. Get it?

[mondo joe]

66. David, it's not civil to call others' behavior vile or accuse tem of attacking. Be the change

you wish to see.

[davidpdx]

67. No, I'm calling you on your own vile behavior

So by all means, continue to make excuses for yourself.

[mondo joe]

68. What vile behavior am I having, David, in asking you to disagree without being disagreeable?

Is t vile of me to ask you to get past your own pain?

[davidpdx]

69. Your vile posts on DU, so stop changing the subject

It must be nice to have amnesia everyday.


Do you wonder why so many of your posts have disappeared?

[mondo joe]

70. My posts to you right now are on DU, David.

The only posts I know of that were deleted referred to several posters who said "Uncle" was a term of respect, as Uncles.

Since those same posters told me repeatedly that Uncle was a term of respect, the mods must have disagreed.

But those are in the past now David.

Do you need help in letting go of the past and learning to work with others? There are many threads on DU encouraging us to be that way - I can share some with you if you like.

[davidpdx]

71. Nope, try again

Keep making excuses....

I don't work with vile individuals.

[mondo joe]

72. You won't work with vile individuals? Not even Rick Warren?

[davidpdx]

73. Nope, I'm talking about you

And the vile hateful trash you post on DU.

[mondo joe]

74. If you think I'm vile, do you think Rick Warren is vile?

[davidpdx]

75. I think Rick is entitled to his beliefs, even though they are wrong

in my opinion.

However this isn't about Warren, it's about you, about the attacks you have made on DU. Take responsiblity for it or not, I don't care. Just know someone will be pointing it out.

[mondo joe]

76. So his equation of gays with child molesters isn't vile?

What could I have done that would be worse than equating you with a child molester?

[davidpdx]

78. I'm not willing to play your little game

I told you that I disagree with Warren. Of course, we could go back to your "learn to be disagree with out being disagreeable" routine.

Yes, you are vile.

Enough said

[mondo joe]

79. You can say I'm vile, but you can't say Rick Warren is?

This emoticon indicates a big hug for you, David: :hug:

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

I hope those hugs will help you be more agreeable.

[anigbrowl]

83. I can't say I find the OP in the least disagreeable. Best thread for days.

[AZBlue]

89. Oh, wow....that was so ironic.

[Starry Messenger]

26. I think it's just the holidays.

I was in Peet's coffee yesterday and there was a woman yelling at the guy at the register trying to convince him that they carried a product that only she knew about.

It's Christmas and we are here on GDP. That means we are probably all insane. ;) My .02 and wishes for a peaceful season.

[Leo The Cleo]

27. DY is better Than Many other grops

I've been to other groups and DU is TAME!

[grantcart]

29. I get confused, am I an Us or a Them?

[Bonobo]

30. Either, both, neither, yes, no.

[grantcart]

39. Namaste

[Teaser]

35. You are what you choose to be.

.

[grantcart]

36. I choose to be a "We"

[patrice]

40. !

:rofl:

Me too!

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. +1

[KittyWampus]

31. IMO, it's important to note it really is just a handful of posters who insist on being that way

and spend large amounts of time and energy posting bile.

[davidpdx]

57. I agree with you. Those who are doing it are also guilty of

breaking DU rules over and over again as well.

[HamdenRice]

32. Agreed! K&R

There is an attempt to define, as unacceptable, things over which reasonable people can disagree (as Skinner himself noted). And this is being done by demonizing mainstream positions, such as support for Obama.

[RichGirl]

33. You are exactly right.

I'm stunned that so many people want Obama to be just like Bush!! I guess their idea of change was that before, the republicans were the REAL Americans, now we are the REAL Americans!

For those who weren't paying attention to Obama's convention speech...here's the CHANGE: Instead of fighting over our differences we find COMMON GROUND!!

[patrice]

34. Agreed. . . . merry . . . uh . . . christmas . . . . . . .

:cry:

[Bonobo]

37. Thanks...

[kayakjohnny]

41. I think this will probably blow over to some degree. There'll always be another huge

story to come along and blow this thing out of the water. I remember the 'year of the shark' here in Florida, where people were getting bit left and right. The press couldn't get enough of it. The story that wouldn't go away..... Until the 9-11 came along.

[tinrobot]

42. Good points K/R

[Dinger]

44. O.K., Here It Goes . . .

I should send this to the admins, but what the heck . . .

The straw that broke the camel's back was the primaries this year. Divide and conquer, and to a large extent, we are still divided. In my humble opinion, the flames and division hurt DU during the primaries. Ignore lists, gang-mentality, banning, tombstone-dancing, etc. was tolerated and even celebrated. The volume of posts here would make this type of activity virtually impossible to stop, so I understand that some of this would occur.
And after Obama won (THANK GOD!), if anyone here complained about a variety of issues, the well-worn "The primaries are over" line usually smacked down the offending poster. Oh well, that's the way the ball bounces I guess.

IBD (in before deletion)

[Bonobo]

45. Succint and largely correct.

[JohnnyLib2]

82. Yup.

:banghead: has been my favorite smilie.

[QC]

86. AMEN! n/t

[scheming daemons]

46. I feel saddened that we have turned our guns on each other instead of the GOP

But I had a post about this a week ago.


Our very name.... Democratic UNDERGROUND .... is no longer operative.


We are above ground now.


And we don't know how to deal with that.

[Froward69]

50. Hammer meet nail

that's it!!! I think we as a group have obtained a victory (nov 4) and do not know how to deal with it. "wallowing in victory" is the best term to use. its almost as if we have begun to ignore the real enemy (gop/freepers) and turned our guns on each other.

SAD really as we have been disagreeable in the past yet not vicious about it.

during this past week I almost posted about all the numerous challenges we face. Yet are mired in infighting about one subject (Rick Warren).

I propose we just use his initials "RW" from now on. as it is the RightWing as a whole we are fighting.

I think it was Benjamin Franklin (I may be wrong) who said "if we do not hang together, surely we will hang separately".

[Balderdash]

47. Apparently that only goes for folks that disagree with you.

If everyone agreed with you, no problem.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

49. at least I avoid calling people out

and though I can certainly be confrontational, I don't do the us v. them thing. You make an accusation with no evidence. How helpful.

[lumberjack_jeff]

51. I'm okay with "Us/Them". I'm not okay with methodically slicing and dicing "Us".

[Kahuna]

97. Good point. Because if that happens, the so-called "progressive" coalition..

is dead, baby. Dead.

[Umbram]

54. Absolutely fucking right.

We are piranha that have nothing to feed on but ourselves....

I've engaged in it. I wish I hadn't.

[Romulox]

62. If DU is dying, it's because "Status Quo Underground" is an oxymoron.

DU is becoming the home of center/right radical conformists. Just like virtually every other media organ in America.

[cali]

80. bwahahahaha. teh delusional wedded to teh stupid

is what your post represents.

:rofl:

[NYC_SKP]

111. LOL!

Maybe we can all get jobs at Fox News... :eyes:

Happy daze to ya, cali! :fistbump:

[yowzayowzayowza]

77. Are we going to govern as a herd of cats or a pride of lions? K&R n/t

[tandot]

81. "No dialectical understanding. No "shades". Just I'm right, you're wrong ..."

Thanks, Bonobo. It has been pretty frustrating to read DU lately.

[treestar]

84. One thing that Obama will change

is the attempt to exclude people for being on the other side.

everyone wants vengeance, but obama's not going to grant it.

After 8 years of hearing how if you don't agree, you should leave the US, tough, you're excluded, from the freepers and the like, we want Obama to do the same thing to them - but he won't. That's where change comes in.

People want Warren and his ilk excluded from society - told to leave, you're not in the majority any more, you're exluded as you tried to exclude us (and I'm sure Warren would exclude more people, not just gays).

Obama refuses to engage in that tit-for-tat kind of behavior.

[mondo joe]

85. Nonsense. I don't want them excluded from society.

They need to be brought in by being rewarded for behaving well.

Not rewarded for being assholes, as Warren has been.

[Number23]

87. thump-thump. thump-thump...

Sooo very, very happy to rec... :loveya:

[Bonobo]

88. And I love you for loving me...

Especially a Pacific Island girl!!!

[ellisonz]

93. Mele Kalikimaka?

:hi:

[AZBlue]

90. A big huge K&R

Thank you!

[tekisui]

94. Well Said, Bonobo.

I am just waiting it out right now. Things are never static. The next event will come. Some issues have clear divisions within the Democratic Party and on DU. But, other issues are divided along artificial lines, just to have an opposition.

We'll pull through, re=defined if necessary. As long as intelligent people keep putting up interesting posts, healthy discussion will continue. I have seen some very toxic times on DU, and this is one of them. But, in the end we share much more than what divides us.

[RiverStone]

100. I am far more optimisitic! DU will be just fine....

Bonobo, you said:...we are infected by hate, intellectual laziness and a profound shortage of empathy.

Do you toss out a relationship that is temporarily going through a tough time?

As we have bantered and battled and debated our way through to an Obama victory, and an end to the most criminal regime in US history - I have seen instead of hate (JOY), instead of intellectual laziness (BRILLANCE) and instead of a shortage of empathy (PASSION).

I can't fathom seeing this country as "doomed" when we are on the cusp of such a new and exciting change. I see the Warren fiasco as a pothole on an otherwise exciting road trip. I choose to see the hope and believe DU will exemplify what's best in progressives, rather than not.

Maybe it's just perspective eh? :think:

[NYC_SKP]

101. DU is having "growing pains", first time under a Dem administration, we'll be OK.

Remove the enemy, some of the troops turn on each other.

But the enemy is still there, and we will continue, on balance, to fight the good fight.

Happy Holiday to all!

:toast:

[ZombieHorde]

105. I don't see what you see here at all.

in this doomed country

The Sun is a star, and stars die. When the Sun dies, it will expand, and the Earth will be destroyed. Human legacies will be erased, unless of course we populate another planet.

Your post seems to be over dramatic to me.

[Enrique]

108. DU seems doomed to become an anti-Obama site

it's already an anti-Pelosi site, how can DU keep supporting Obama?

[Hekate]

109. I finally started hiding Warren threads just to regain my own sense of equilibrium and sanity...

I am not sure DU is dead and dying just yet, but I think your analysis is pretty much spot on. And there's even an insulting sub-thread, made to order for the occasion. :eyes:

I hope we can get past this and start the work of rebuilding this country -- while, indeed, insuring equal rights (and equal rites) for all.

Hekate

[TexasObserver]

110. People arguing about their areas of disagreement is not new. And it's a good thing.

Ever see any of the political materials from the 19th century? Our disagreements are tame by comparison.

It's not reasonable to expect people arguing on a message board to behave as if Miss Manners was watching.