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Why does Hillary Clinton bug me? Or maybe it's not her... I'm confused.

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sohndrsmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:40 PM
Original message
Why does Hillary Clinton bug me? Or maybe it's not her... I'm confused.
Edited on Tue Jan-13-09 02:45 PM by sohndrsmith
I'm also very uncomfortable - and surprised by this to a great extent. I'm not sure what it is, but there is something about these confirmation hearings, or Clinton herself, or both - or neither - that is really not working well.

Admittedly, I have never been a HRC fan, but that softened significantly after she lost the nomination to Obama. I thought her handling of the matter was wonderful (if not stellar... still, my respect for her grew in a very large way - to the point that I thought she could be an asset to Obama's cabinet or administration in some way, regardless of her role. I wasn't keen on her being picked for VP, though, I'm still skittish with her, but I'm glad to have seen a side of her I hadn't seen before: I'm hesitant to use this word because of the sexist, diminutive or servile sense it may provoke, but nothing could be further from the truth - I just don't know another or better word: but the graciousness of her concessionary actions in defeat showed me strength of character and even, yes, integrity, that I did not see in her in the past. I have come close to liking her. Almost. I certainly developed a great deal of respect for this most adept and skilled politician. That was big (for me).

There is no question that she knows policy, she knows Washington, she knows how things work and she knows how to play the game. She's extremely smart and her expertise on all things wonk are unparalleled. She also, (or so I thought before this past year) was the most formidable and expert political campaigner there is. Unfortunately, I acknowledge that with a bad taste in my mouth because I thought her ability to play dirty pool to keep that spot made this "first place" spot somewhat hollow. But that's just me).

But I made up with her on much of this, because I really thought she was going to become the honorable public servant I wanted her to be but never thought she was. This is all subjective and intuitive, but the way our leaders present themselves to us (even little nobodies like me) - matters. And I know there are millions of people who disagree with me and adore H. Clinton. This mystifies me. I don't know why and that bugs me.

I think what prompted me to write this post is my reaction to the Senate hearings today. Not what was said, not the specifics, not the questions or the answers, but the overall flow of the thing, the media coverage, the performance and interaction of those involved. I could be wrong, but I'm uncomfortable enough to wonder if I'm not the only one - or if I am, have someone talk some sense into me.

What startled me so much was the sense (not only in Clinton's demeanor, but in the Senate and the media as well: the message I keep getting alarmed by is: Clinton feels and is perceived as Obama's equal in a way that does not make sense and I don't mean that in any gender-derisive way, so please don't read that into this). But The SoS is not the CinC's equal, and I'm just amazed at the way this is playing out.

Am I off base?

Has anyone else had this reaction?

I'm actually really disappointed. I was rooting for Hillary more than I ever have before. I felt I made peace with someone I - plainly put - did not trust - for years. I think (or thought) I'd gotten past that, but what the Senate hearings evoked in me is... fear. She scares me. I don't think strength is well served in bullishness. She sounds adversarial and battle ready - and somehow that doesn't really square with diplomacy and detente in my brain... Maybe she's nervous. Certainly she's qualified as far as international politics are concerned. She knows every detail. But I can't shake the sense that she is missing an unquantifiable element that we desperately need as we rebuild our global reputation and respect, as well as finesse damaged allegiances and safeguard our nation. And I can only hope that her ambitions are led by what she's incorporated from Obama, not something else.

I understand this post is purely emotional and intuitive, and therefore a lot of people will probably dismiss it as irrelevant. Maybe it is. But one thing that has been sorely missing in our government and leaders, specifically, is that interactive, personal (human!) element that I think is far more valuable than perhaps some others might. Especially in this topmost negotiative position that the interpersonal abilities and deference when appropriate is more crucial than in any other post.

I'm surprised by my reaction, but for the first time since Election Day, I have had the sense that this is a troublesome post that does not fit. I have tons of faith in Obama, but I am uneasy and I feel guilty about that because I wanted to feel good about this and I don't.

Anyone else? Thoughts? Ideas? Reactions? Insults...? : )

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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. insults in 5...4...3...2...1..
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. It's too long, swampie, I'm not going to read it.
If only the OP had a summary sentence or something, but I can't get a read by scanning so I'll have to be uncharacteristically unreactive. :shrug:
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. i read it
its just more of the same
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #11
42. DUzy's are coming back!
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Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. LOL!!
wow!. that was good!!.. they immediately started coming!!
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sohndrsmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Ha! well said... go for it. I'm just being honest. : ) thanks for making me laugh at myself... n/t
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. Bug off...I'm
tired of DUers trying to undermine our new incoming Government. The Primaries are OVER.
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sohndrsmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. Hm... I've been bothered by the nitpicking over every move, too. Which is why
this surprised me. I've been behind Obama and his decisions pretty much full-bore, full-tilt since he won the Election (and before). I trust this person and his decisions and have found that, without exception, all the criticisms over his actions (or inaction when others "expected" him to say or do what they thought he should) has proven to illustrate that he is WAY ahead of the rest of us (or at least me). We have a leader that can actually think in complex ways and understand them from many perspectives. He understands the balance of long-term and short-term issues regarding serious, global problems.... and he knows what he's doing. I have not joined in the chorus that has been picking apart his every move, but maybe that's what I just did here. I didn't view it that way, at least I didn't view it as a criticism to Obama, but as a potential problem - or thorn in his side.

The enormity and power that is Hillary Clinton makes this different. I do not see this in any way related to the primaries, but I'm afraid this may be the response if or when she is criticized. Lord, I hope not. I didn't have any sense of an adversarial or competitive edge to Biden, and he's the bloody VP! I really did and do have a nearly unshakable positive attitude about Obama and his ability to lead and handle his administration. That made my unexpected reaction to these hearings all the more surprising.

Thanks for disagreeing and making a valid point.

I just hope you're right and I'm wrong...
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Me too..
Thanks for letting me vent about the negativity on the board and having a rational response.
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sohndrsmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. thanks back : )
Venting because something is legitimately troublesome is not a bad thing (in my opinion, anyway).

My post was way too long and clumsy as a result. Even so, I'm happy that there have been a few brave souls who slogged through it or skimmed it and read something that sparked a response. I deserved the reply that just said, "too long". That DUer is right and that was a mistake - point taken. It's just as obnoxious as ALL CAPS (which I don't read), so I got a good dose of my own medicine on that one.

Agreement is way overrated sometimes. Disagreement, though, can degrade into personal barbs way too fast. One is a useful tool, one is not, and we all get to choose which one to use.

Thanks again. : )
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. Beware the mighty Clintoris.
You didnt look her in the EYE did you? :hide:
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. LOL!!! Clintoris! That is freaking brilliant!
The Clenis and the Clintoris went into a bar...

:rofl:

The evil eye! :rofl:

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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. They eye is boned!!!
:rofl: I love it. :hi:
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
21. copy right that! QUICK!
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I Googled it immediately...
It felt pretty good! :smoke:

Seriously, it's already in the Urban Dictionary, darn it.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. I wish I could take credit for coming up with it.
Alas... 'twas not I. :(
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Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. and your point is??? Hillary is fine and will be fine..
thanks for your concerns.... Just kidding.. - I hope you see her differently and your fear will go away once she starts working and reporting to President Elect Obama.

On the meantime, welcome to DU!
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sohndrsmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. thanks, Sebass1271. I'm appropriately embarrassed, and trying to learn. : )
I don't think politics is separate and devoid of all things that can't be measured, documented, recorded, or defined by rule or process. I am not convinced that personality and presentation is not insignificant for the nation's global mediator, among other things, and I was truly surprised by my reaction and laid it out here for whatever discussion or ridicule that might provoke.

With one rec and a bunch of replies, I've prompted a heck of a lot more ridicule than philosophical or theoretical debate. : )

That's cool. It's a good way to learn.
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
6. Im with you to a large extent
Her confirmation seems less like a hearing into her abilities and more like a coronation.

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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Coronation? Not this shit again. Senator Kerry and the committee are doing a fantastic job.
This is a confirmation hearing, not a coronation.
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. There are as many hard questions being asked as there were of Bush appointees
Just because she has a (D) next to her name shouldnt excuse the diminution of the process.
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Kaylee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
7. Hmmm...maybe it's nervousness.
Edited on Tue Jan-13-09 02:51 PM by Kaylee
I don't think she ruffled any feathers as First Lady. And other Nations seem to view her in a favorable light, so maybe she is just coming off a bit strong due to the stress of the situation. It must be difficult to sit there and be grilled by your colleagues as they determine if you are acceptable or not.

Edit to say: I'm not watching, so I can't speak to your perception of her performance.

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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
9. Yawn. Concern noted n/t
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sohndrsmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. yep - you're right. No surprise, and I'll probably regret the post (and it is too long. I'm bad).
But I did hope to learn something, perhaps open up a dialogue. If not here, then where?

I appreciate all comments - positive, negative, humorous, whatever.

Sorry to make you yawn... I am not all that good at posting. I know I need work on that, so thank you for the reminder. : )
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. I think you meant well in your post, you wanted a discussion...
...unfortunately the tone here on DU will prevent that from happening.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
12. essentially, you're blaming Hillary for something she has not done
What startled me so much was the sense (not only in Clinton's demeanor, but in the Senate and the media as well: the message I keep getting alarmed by is: Clinton feels and is perceived as Obama's equal in a way that does not make sense and I don't mean that in any gender-derisive way, so please don't read that into this).

1. Hillary has no control over how the media and senate choose to portray or treat her.
2. Hillary has gone out of her way to defer to Obama. So if you believe Hillary thinks she's Obama's equal, then you are either a mind reader or maybe have an issue with self-assured confident women.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Well summed up...
Or, in other words: "It's you."

Hillary has no control over the Kool Aid, but we should be more careful of what we swallow.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. "... gone out of her way to defer to Obama..."
says it all
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
17. Traditionally SOS is the 2nd most important person in the executive branch
She's being perfectly deferential, but you may be underestimating how important a job this is.
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MarjorieG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
18. Given her real and self-perceived stature, she needed a big job and accolade.
Anything less would give conspiratorial grist to media, real or not, and junior senator was no longer enough, although Kerry seems to handle it with more grace.

The SoS is a great opportunity for her, for us, and solves a big problem of how to utilize her, to give her the respect she earned and requires.
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CakeGrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
25. I'll back you up so it's not a total flamefest
Edited on Tue Jan-13-09 03:10 PM by CakeGrrl
She's a little too intrinsically hawkish for my taste. Time will tell about the extent to which Obama defers to his cabinet's counsel on foreign policy, but no one has a crystal ball...not even the ones who wave you off with a "She'll be great!" One can only hope.

Edit to add: this seems to be one cabinet pick where some of those who reserved the right to be concerned about Obama's OTHER picks are brushing off those who aren't 100% warm and fuzzy about this one. Go figure...
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sohndrsmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. I don't mind the flamefest, actually, but thank you - you're both kind AND brave.

Re your edit: I'm not mentally organized enough to remember who has criticized what, but I have been stunned by the amount of criticism on Obama's every move. Then again, if people have concerns what better place to discuss them than here?

I'm uncomfortable - but I don't think Obama made a mistake. If he has I have absolute faith in his ability to handle it, because he will make mistakes - that's a given. One of them may prove to be giving the Clinton's a pass on the vetting process, if I am understanding that right. Given that he's dealing with a former president, though, it may be the only appropriate thing to do. Personally, I don't agree with that. These finances involve global initiatives and seem more than appropriate for vetting our Secretary of State, our foremost No.1 global representative. I really hope Obama holds his ground on this. I'm sure it's extremely difficult to submit these disclosures, but those are the rules, no? I think it sets a bad precedent to let slide. They are not beyond the rules or above them. We don't need to focus on Clinton unless it's to honor her for doing a masterful job as SoS. Ugh. I may have to retract (or contradict) a few apologies unless this gets resolved properly, swiftly and with little to no fanfare. Historically speaking, that isn't likely to happen.

It seems that the only times Obama has really tripped up is when he has made concessions in his rigorous vetting process (and that includes one unforgettable but largely forgotten reverend).

Obama IS pretty quick on his feet, and he sure isn't reckless, so I'm not in a panic. I just found myself dealing with a little red flag that I didn't expect at ALL. Ah well... If it does prove to be a troublesome fit, so be it. Obama has no problem with dealing with whatever comes his way, and there is a titanic-sized mass of disaster doing just that, so I feel a little bad thinking of an extra one.

I've wondered if the backlash on Obama might be (in part) just a result of people just being so bloody used to having to take sides, do battle, work so hard to win because it's been so important... and not being able to change gears so abruptly. Perhaps. Some of this may just be sort of residual and reflexive (I can't help but picture a bunch of those robotic mops banging around aimlessly and just fighting with whatever they bump into).

I guess they call it "transition" for good reason.

I'm sure there's even some fear of the unknown in a lot of us - all change is stressful on some level, even positive change, which this certainly is!). It's all normal, and I guess I'm no different than anyone else in trying to figure it all out and bumping into things in the process.

On top of trying collectively trying to change gears, I think a LOT of us are so angry with the nitwit who's leaving and frustrated because none of it touches him...

It's something of a perfect storm.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
31. I think you may want to look at yourself and why a strong female bothers you.
Edited on Tue Jan-13-09 06:15 PM by Marrah_G
Not flaming you or insulting you. Just making a suggestion.

Alot of people still have trouble wrapping their brains around women in power.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. I agree strongly with you, Marrah.
I've seen this before. People have made weird remarks about strong females; and strong females, from my perspective, are the most loving people in the world.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
32. Some plants require fertilizer to flower. n/t
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
33. I think you're trying to articulate something, but you're being too polite
Isn't the following basically your point?

I don't think strength is well served in bullishness. She sounds adversarial and battle ready - and somehow that doesn't really square with diplomacy and detente in my brain...

:shrug:

Nothing wrong with those statements and you don't have to qualify them. They should give anyone pause given the balls out aggressive bullshit foreign 'diplomacy' the BushIncs have engaged in. AND the ClintonsInc continued during Bill's term.
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rvablue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
35. Hillary doesn't bug me ... but this spurious OP does. n/t
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
37. I'm not worried
when the flames were hot (right after the primaries), Hillary was an emblem of unity, hard work and decency. She fell completely into line. I expect her to do the same as SoS.
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MyNameGoesHere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
38. THE HILLARY ATE MY BABY!
I don't know. Maybe fear is getting to you.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
39. No matter how 'strong' she is, she will have to be a 'team player'
with President Obama. Trust me when I say, Hillary Clinton has the UTMOST respect for Barack Obama, more so probably than her own husband. She WILL NOT be ALLOWED to 'run over' this President. Clinton answers to the Commander in Chief, who, in this case, is Barack H. Obama and he is the type whom, in a very unasuming manner, will LET HER KNOW THAT, in no uncertain terms.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
40. I cried with joy today. Blubbered like a little baby. It made me realize
it's REAL. Obama will be president, Biden Vice-President and Hillary SoS. We could not ask for a better team at this time in history. The better Hillary looks the better Obama looks and the better Democrats look. We have SO much to be grateful for.

Let go of your doubts and let the good stuff win out.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-09 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
41. The weird feeling you are experiencing is called LOVE. You've been smitten by the Goddess of Peace
and you haven't quite come to grips with how to deal with these complex emotional feelings you are having over her. Hillary has that magic...that alluring appeal. It's overwhelming and takes even the most level-blooded people by surprise when they're least expecting it. It's hard for you to cope so you're doing your best to reject these emotions because you never dreamed you could worship another political player as much as you do Obama. With some diligent patience and a little help from your friends, you should soon be able to admit your incredible passion for the Goddess of Peace that's been bottled up inside you. For many people, it's hard to be equally passionate about both Obama and anyone else at the same time, but what's meant to be is meant to be. Don't hold back a minute longer. Hope that helps, and no charge either... :smoke:
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Mother Of Four Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-09 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
43. I think I know what you're saying--
It's a nebulous "This just doesn't FEEL right" gut reaction that's difficult to articulate. It doesn't help when you've had bad feelings before, it's almost like rebuilding a relationship.

With some forgiveness asked in advance for using it as an example, it also doesn't help perception when on one hand people say "Well O isn't perfect" or "He's not the messiah" and then later on have people referring to HRC as a goddess.

It's OK to be leery, we've been beaten to death by untruths-hidden agenda's-manipulation and broken promises for the last eight years. It's PERFECTLY understandable to be gun shy, also very healthy.

In a nutshell this is the way I look at it.

Why did I vote for Obama?
I trust him to make the right choices.

If I trust him to make the right choices, how should I react to him choosing HRC for SoS?
I should follow my original line of thought, and TRUST him to make the right choices. Why give myself an ulcer over what hasn't happened yet?

Makes it easy eh? We'll see how it plays out, but for now it really is ok to have some hope. Honest. :hug:


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