Why does questioning racism "shut down honest dialogue" but attacking those who question racism is

[Empowerer]

perfectly acceptable?

We have heard this frequently the past couple of days in the wake of the NY Post cartoon controversy. Most recently just a few minutes ago on MSNBC's 1600 during a discussion in which a guest insisted that it was a mistake for people to call the cartoon racist, not because it wasn't, but because it put white people on the defensive and made it impossible for the issue to be discussed rationally.

Yesterday, on Hardball, Pat Buchanan, enabled by Mike Barnicle, made similar claims . . .

BARNICLE: OK, Pat Buchanan, you just heard Professor Dyson say that we are less than honest, as a nation, as a people, in talking about race. What do you think happens with white guys like you and me when we talk about race in -- honestly, at least from our perspective? What happens?

PAT BUCHANAN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Oh, you get a... you get a -- I have -- I have spoken honestly, from my standpoint. And I know you really get fired upon.

But let me say this about Mr. Holder. This is a remark of almost paralyzing stupidity. If you want to start a discussion about how there is a measure of social self-segregation going on -- I mean, you have got black churches, Black Caucus, black colleges, and black clubs -- there is that.

If he wants to discuss that, Mike, you don`t start it off by insulting the people you want to talk to. I mean, that was not an invitation to a discussion. It was an invitation to a fight, when you call us a nation of cowards.

Secondly, no nation on Earth has done more in the last 50 years -- and, in the last 50 years, the American people and American nation, to bring this people of color into full participation in American society. And none has succeeded more.

And to call us cowards, I think, it really not only chops off the conversation; it is a blatant lie.

This is a really unfortunate attitude. And one that seems extremely one-sided and self-pitying, not to mention that it smacks of racial entitlement.

We never hear it suggested that by, for example, accusing blacks who express concern about offensive comments, etc. of "playing the race card," or "crying wolf" or being "opportunistic" and worse, certain whites are chilling rational discussion about race. Apparently, in some people's view, whites are perfectly entitled to decide where, when, whether and how race is addressed and anything that makes them uncomfortable not only entitles them to express great outrage but also to shut down the entire discussion. Moreover, they believe they have the unfettered right feel offended and to express their anger, frustration, etc. about being offended, without being accused of attacking blacks or shutting down open dialogue about race.

Yet on the other hand, in these persons' view, blacks (and anyone else who agrees with us) have absolutely no right to be offended or to even express their feelings of offense since doing so may lead to white people being uncomfortable and must bear the entire blame for the failure of white people to address the issue of race in America.

I think it's time that someone called out this hypocrisy.

And while we're on the topic, it should also be noted that when a black person says that "America is a nation of cowards when it comes to discussing race," it is not a personal attack on white people - unless one believes that "America" and "white people" are synonymous. When Eric Holder made this comment, he was clearly not singling out white people - he was talking about ALL of us. So their whining about how AG Holder supposedly "insulted the people {he} wants to talk to" and "call{ed} us cowards" is a rather bizarre complaint, dripping with entitlement and notions of white supremacy. Buchanan and Barnicle complaining about Eric Holder's criticism of Americans equating to a direct attack on white people says much more about their worldview than they probably intended.

[Bicoastal]

1. It's very easy to tell which white people have guilty consciences...

...from the defensive nature of their response.

[Hello_Kitty]

5. I dunno, some of them don't seem to feel guilty about it at all.

The defensiveness of Pat Buchanan stems from his overweening sense of entitlement and annoyance at being expected to show respect for those he deems his inferiors.

[EFerrari]

2. That's what racists do. And Eric Holder was right on. n/t

[EffieBlack]

8. hear, hear

[donco6]

14. I agree with you.

I suppose he could have been more gentle, but sometimes I think people NEED to have their faces shoved in it. I know I did - and a lot of it happened right here. And I'm better for it.

[EffieBlack]

15. It seems that only SOME people are entitled to engage in "straight talk"

People can stand on the floor of the Stock Exchange and rant and rave like maniacs and they become media darlings and heroes.

An accomplished black man stands up and calmly, rationally speaks his mind about a topic about which he has substantial personal experience and he's viciously attacked as a race-baiting crazy person who's criticism of "Americans" is an assault on white people.

[donco6]

18. OH! LOL! Great point!

Didn't even make that connection, but you're absolutely right. See? I miss stuff like this, but now that you've pointed it out, it's so clear.

[EFerrari]

20. No kidding! n/t

[genna]

23. I think you are conflating two related things.

1. Emotionalism used as a way to say that AAs are not rational.

2. Bringing up the conversation of how we get at race being the means to suggest the introducing person is racist for mentioning it.


I think Pat Buchanan types spent 30 to 40 years figuring out how to make race an unmentionable with white people. If you try to deal the paradigm itself #2, you will be castigated.

Think about how Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have been taken apart over the years. These themes come from Democrats as well. How was it done? If you look at that process you will be able to reach #1.

[EFerrari]

22. I've had my remote tagged many times and I needed it, too.

People are going to remember what he said because it was well said, no matter the effort to make him look simply "emotional" or whatever gaslighting was on that day. :)

[CreekDog]

16. and Holder said it the day the cartoon came out

it was no ordinary day for this topic, but a day where the author denied racism, the newspaper denied racism and a bunch of other apologists denied anything was intended.

it's kind of like when black people cannot drive or walk freely in this country without harassment by law enforcement and this is time and time again, denied as coincidence or worse, deserved by a significant portion of the country.

[EFerrari]

21. Yes, he did. It was the first time I felt anything like simpatica towards him

for several reasons. He did very well that day for the American people.

This is going to be a very memorable Black History month because people are MAKING history right now and I'm so happy I got to be here to see it. :toast:

[genna]

24. After a week of even thinking through some of this

The only reason why the reaction (backlash) against Holder wasn't stronger is that monkey cartoon.

Eric Holder's Americans are cowards juxtaposed to a sneering cartoonist and an arrogant ownership/management team. Their pockets had to be threatened before they tried to come off that high horse.

We'll see how this develops but race relations has took different turns for the younger generation because people were willing to press on these sensitive spots.

[Occam Bandage]

3. Because nobody wants to discuss race.

Too many pitfalls. Easier to pretend everything's fine.

[Empowerer]

4. Nobody? Or just the ones who need to discuss it the most? n/t

[EFerrari]

6. I rarely agree with that poster but I do here.

As a nation, we've pretended that that fight is over and that we won. That's wrong, of course. But, as a people. we avoid the topic out of shame and discourge discussion. So, as a nation we all qualify as "the ones who need to discuss it the most". When I came to DU a few years ago, discussing race elicited cries of "racist".

We're very far away from the place where we can simply take about race, imho.

[omega minimo]

10. and part of the reason for that is the toxic atmosphere created by the very media types being quoted

"We're very far away from the place where we can simply take about race, imho."


20 years of people volunteering for Limbaugtamies and 30 years of Orwellian mindfucking, we've lost the knack for discourse in general.

A recent example is the Rev. Wright mess. The feeding frenzy of media sharks bloodying the water, shredding the actual event into an unreadable mess, NOT doing straightforward reporting and THEN telling us what he said and what to think about...................... and they're off!!! A horse race to nowhere, rabid dogs running in circles.

Everything he said was paraphrased EVEN IN THE FIRST PARAGRAPH OF NEWS ARTICLES.

If people watched more Moyers and listened to Thom Hartmann, we'd have more opportunities for dialogue.

I heard a young African American blogger (name sounds like frytsunami ward or something) on NPR after the election and he's an example (from that piece anyway) of a young black person who assumes most white people are clueless and doesn't realize how many of us lived through the progressive era and kind of have an inkling of What It Is.

:hi:

[Occam Bandage]

9. Pretty much nobody.

Racists don't want to because they don't want to be put in a situation of either lying or humiliating themselves in public. Racial-equality advocates often don't want to because they don't want to admit how bad the situation still is, or because it's easier to latch onto bullshit distractions o' the week than to have to go back into the real meatgrinders. And the muddled middle would prefer that such upsetting topics be left for another time, another place, another whatever.

[EffieBlack]

11. I'm puzzled by your categorizations

You seem to place "racists" on one end of the spectrum and "racial equality advocates" on the other.

Do you really believe that those of us who advocate for racial equality are an extreme?

That being said, I believe your charactierzations are grossly generalized. For example, many, many, many "racial equality advocates" desperately want these issues to be discussed. But when we try we are often shouted down by those accusong us of "obsessing over race," "playing the race card," "crying wolf," "provoking 'white guilt,'" etc. - just as the OP described and just as we've seen in the media and right here on DU.

[EFerrari]

12. There you go, playing the truth card.

lol

:hi:

[EffieBlack]

13. :-)

[Occam Bandage]

40. Yes, much as I think "good" and "bad" are a spectrum.

Sometimes there is nothing wrong with being all the way over to one side of a spectrum.

[sampsonblk]

28. And that works both ways

See Harold Ford's senate race.

There are a lot of weak ppl hiding their heads under the blanket for safety on this issue. A lot of would-be black leaders are running from the issue also. In some cases, they dont see it as an advantageous issue to take up.

Very unfortunate.

[marshall]

7. This matter is complicated by the sheer mass of the humor leveled at Bush

For the past eight years we have watched, read and listened to a nonstop flurry of well deserved humor leveled at Bush, from the mildly good natured to the caustic. He has been compared to a monkey, called retarded, etc. It's been funny but it has lowered the standard for what is acceptable in political humor.

Obama's race plays a factor in keeping some decorum on what his detractors have running through their little minds, but I think we will see a gradual eroding of the dam that keeps people's best face on. I think we will have to steel ourselves for a torrent of stuff that will make this chimpanzee cartoon look like a valentine, especially when the election starts looming ever closer.

[Township75]

17. I can find a few reasons for this

1. It helps some people think they are doing something about racism without actually doing something. I see this with charity as well. Rather than finger pointing go out and volunteer time or donate to help those less fortunate get an education, food/shelter, etc. Finger pointing allows some people to appease their conscious about doing nothing significant and takes no physical effort or economic effort on their part. They can do it right from a keyboard and feel very righteous doing it (especially since online is like doing it in public).

2. Race has become a political tool - Repubs used it to help them in the south for years. Now we are using it, and unfortunately, likely will to protect Obama from criticism. My first reaction to that cartoon was not one of racism because I didn't link it to Obama. Rather I thought it was saying the people in DC aren't any brighter nor have more direction in solving the economic challenges than a raged chimp. People in DC does NOT equal Obama, rather all pols. God knows how many times GWB has been referred to as a chimp.

3. AS someone said above, the walls of what is acceptable as cartoons and criticism are getting thinner and thinner.

[EffieBlack]

19. So, let me get this straight . . .

A newspaper publishes a cartoon that people across all spectrums believe depicted our president as an ape. After an outcry from across the country, the paper and apologists for the cartoonist insist that this was NOT the president at all, yet those who were offended by the cartoon's racist implications are using race to protect the president from criticism?

Excuse me, but President Obama has been criticized up one side and down the other from the second after he said, "So help me, God," yet I haven't heard race brought up at all as a defense to most of that criticism. The only reason race is involved in this particular discussion is because a cartoonist chose to use a thinly-disguised, long-established racist metaphor for the President and was called out for it.

So, please, spare us the "if only you didn't bring up race, race wouldn't be an issue" lectures to those of us who object to racist expressions. You'll have to find another way to defend racism, cause trying to shift the blame won't fly.

[genna]

25. Point #2. What measurement are you using to understand criticism on BHO?

[polmaven]

26. Actually, I'm a little surprised

that Buchanan didn't say something like "See...Holder PROVES that, among those black folk, at least, we really ARE a nation whiners...not cowards....WHINERS!"

He is such a racist fool, it would not surprise me one bit if that is what he thinks of African Americans in this country....WHINERS!!!!

[Name removed]

27. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Eric Condon]

29. Here's the gist of Buchanan's argument:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqnOrkcaZts

Starting about 23 seconds in.

[Bluenorthwest]

30. Love your last paragraph

Eric Holder won points from me for saying what he said, and more later in the week but that is another story. AG Holder said 'Americans' as you point out. Those who thought he meant one group of Americans, or that racisim is always a 'black and white' issue missed his entire point.

I was suprised that some thought he meant 'white people' when he said Americans. He meant Americans, in all our rainbow glory, are a tad on the craven side about race and other differences we have. I agree with Eric Holder.

[cyndensco]

32. I too found Empowerer's last paragraph intriguing.

It is all a matter of one's perspective.

Traveling when Holder made his statement, I only heard snippets here and there. I understood his "coward" reference to be those who experience diversity Monday-Friday but who choose to segregate themselves on the weekends. My immediate reaction: Guilty As Charged. With the exception of occasional work-related events, I spend my weekends with black folk like me.

It is interesting many felt Holder was referring to only white people. From my perspective, he was also talking to me.

[Karenina]

31. Bingo!

[vaberella]

33. I'm not afraid to talk about race.

I just can't find anyone willing to have a proper discussion about race. Chickens the lot of them (everyone in general). Some Blacks want to blame everyone. Some Blacks just don't want to talk about it. Some ignore it. Then you have everyone else who is either on both ends of the spectrum.

[EffieBlack]

36. What is a "proper" discussion and who determines what "proper" is?

And is it possible that your inability to "find anyone willing to have a proper discussion about race" could have something to do with the way you approach the topic?

In my experience, there are many, many people interested in discussing this topic. But one of the things that makes it difficult to do is the manner in which it is approached - and that applies to both sides of the discussion, not just African Americans.

[vaberella]

41. Hmm...that's true enough.

Well I did post on a topic dealing with it on the General Discussion thread and it basically seemed more as flame bait than anything productive. I've been in many race relations classes and most of the time people have this "I'm not racist" but I'll imply something racist in a statement or find ways to defend things that are just blatantly racist. As a Black woman, let's just say the topic hasn't been broached in scholastic atmosphere, but you could tell the White students don't want to talk about it because they seem to feel uncomfortable. Those who do are much more "sterile" in their response.

A "proper" conversation for me is basically look at AG Holder's comment and basically share our own opinion on race relations either in our past experience or just perspective. On this site I tend to be a bit weary to discuss such topics because I remember when prop 8 was passed it was like a good majority of people here was quick to blame Blacks for the persecution of Homosexuals, as though there aren't Blacks who are homosexual or Blacks and homosexuality are mutually exclusive. It showed me that some progressives can also have questionable morality and I think this is where I meant that I had problems finding it...in particular on this board.

[EffieBlack]

43. Thanks for the clarification

Your perspective is really interesting.

[noiretextatique]

34. this quote really nails a big part of the problem.

"it is not a personal attack on white people - unless one believes that "America" and "white people" are synonymous."

that pretty much says it all about some race-relate topics, e.g., reparations.

a few weeks ago, our CFO (white male) admonished our department to "use correct grammar" when to staff. i was offended by his comment, and i mentioned it to a white, male acquaintance. he said he would be a better judge of whether the comment was offensice or not because he doesn't have a chip on his shoulder.

i got really angry at him because: do you know how many times i've heard that from a white person? do you know how many times some white person has insisted that what *I* experience is not what *I* know it to be, but what s/he claims it is? it's maddening. oh...and since *I* got angry at him, THAT became the big issue, not the stupid thing he said. also a part of the standard race game.

[genna]

44. Now that sounds like my experience of a race conversation with a male and a white person.

With white women I have known, it is a different conversation where the issue of power is raised because they can see gender is clearly an issue. They can't see the benefit being white may be.


They can see the issue in reverse when it is not a boss-employee situation. If it is not a work context and their paycheck is not stake, white women I know can see how race and gender intersect.

[Behind the Aegis]

35. Racism is a difficult topic for many.

Of all the "-isms" and other forms of bigotry, it seems racism is the one which makes all people uncomfortable on some level. I have conducted and been to many diversity presentations/seminars, when the topic is "racism," it is almost as if the air has been sucked from the room. There are some who are more comfortable than others, and some who are willing to listen. Of course, racism is not just a "white/black" thing and that really complicates the whole topic for some!

[Jennicut]

37. Plenty of white people like me were offended by the chimp cartoon

and the watermelons on the White House lawn, etc. The cowardice lies in those who are afraid to talk about what their views are on race on all sides. There are stereotypes of all races brought down from generation to generation. I am 33 and I will admit that my grandparents are extremely racist and my parents are sometimes racist. They say things that make me cringe. I try to pass down good values to my own kids about equality, acceptance of our differences. The best thing to do is ensure the next generation is more tolerant then the one before it. My own two daughters recognize who Obama is on tv and never even ask about his appearance or that of Michelle or Sasha and Malia. At 3 and 4 children are naturally curious but there is really just an acceptance that this man on tv is someone "normal" and also someone important. That is different from me as I grew up with Jesse Jackson being demonized by conservatives. I had a negative view of him until I got older and look back and realize that this crap is put into your mind by your elders.

[Rebubula]

38. Racism

To quote the Epic band, The Drive-By Truckers

'Racism is a worldwide problem and has been since the beginning of history. And it ain't just white and black either, but thanks to folks like George Wallace - its always easier to play it with a Southern accent'

We all have our biases and prejudices. To deny this is to lie. The trick is to not be a dick about your prejudices and to try to overcome them.

[Terran]

39. Conservatives have poisoned the discussion of race

even worse than where it was 50 years ago. Now, any honest discussion initiated by minorities about race and racism in the US is automatically labeled as "racist" by the the far-right. In other words, telling the truth has been demonized. This is exactly how so many mainstream talking heads got away with labeling Jeremiah Wright as a racist. Even people here at DU bought into that, which was astonishing to me. Obviously not everything Wright claimed can be labeled as "truth"; some of it is speculation. But the core of his statements about America, with his "God damn America!" epitomizing that, are simply objective truth.

Racism in the US, of the worst sorts anyway, has contracted into a hard little knot of arrogant-but-embarrassed wingnuts for whom the worst insult you can make to them is to call them "racist" (they no longer care if you call them "cracker" or "honkey"). These people cannot stand to have the reality of their mindsets about race penetrated, partly because so many of them are in politics and media and can't afford to be openly demonized by their views (that's what brought down the formerly closet racist George Allen).

[polichick]

42. "Buchanan and Barnicle complaining about Eric Holder's criticism...

...of Americans equating to a direct attack on white people says much more about their worldview than they probably intended."

YEP!