Obama is veering closer to Ronald Reagan than to FDR

[brentspeak]

1) Giving Wall St. crooks trillions

2) News that he wants to initiate http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2009/03/10/with-merit-pay-obama-takes-on-teachers-unions/">"merit" pay for teachers.

I imagine that it would be kind of difficult to teach effectively when you're worried all the time about a) fellow teachers politicking behind your back for the better students; b) job performance supervisors who play favorites and down-grade non-brown-nosing teachers.

Somewhere in Hell, Milton Friedman is cackling in triumph.

[David Dunham]

1. No. Merit pay for teachers is the same thing private sector employees face

[brentspeak]

2. And...?

How well has that worked out? More ulcers and sleepless nights = better educated students?

[Just-plain-Kathy]

30. There has to be a way to get rid of bad teachers. ...n/t

[MadHound]

38. There are plenty of ways of getting rid of a teacher

However,given the nature of the profession, the teacher is allowed to defend their position and their job, they can't be fired without such a defense. This is much the same process that lawyers, doctors and other professionals are allowed, and that seems to work out well, why shouldn't teachers be granted the same.

[mkultra]

90. Actually, i woudl disagree

The process of eliminating a teacher simply based on performance is nearly impossible. Unless a teacher makes an egregious error such as abuse, their position is completely protected in MOST school systems. A poorly performing teacher will simply be on "improvment plans" for the duration but pay increase will never cease as long as the system has budget.

[Exilednight]

155. Getting rid of a bad teacher is nearly impossible. It takes a ........

severe case of gross misconduct to get rid of a teacher. I've had plenty of teachers in school who were horrible at teaching or were out of touch with modern teaching techniques who were protected by the teachers union. I've seen teachers who psychologically abused children and were allowed to keep their jobs.

The system is broke, and we can not afford to build the evidence to support our position. Bush used that method to sell a war, and look how well that turned out.

Everyone wants to bash merit pay before they see the specifics of the program. Let's wait until we can actually read the bill before criticizing it.

[WinkyDink]

89. There are plenty of procedures. But also plenty of lazy administrators.

[EmilyAnne]

35. That sounds like a bit of an exaggeration.

I think merit pay could be viewed by many as an incentive to staying positive about their job.
It wouldn't come down to more hours. Merit can be found in innovative teaching methods, as well.

If you're first thought about merit pay is that vindictive teachers will band together to interfere with another teacher's recognition, then it sounds like the teaching environment is miserable all around with or without merit pay.

[MadHound]

46. Tell you what, I'm willing to consider merit pay

When you can find me an assessment that takes in the vagaries of a student's stages of cognitive functioning, particular intelligence(ala Gardener), age, ability, emotional state, developmental stage, sleep the night before, test anxiety, disability, learning or otherwise, socio-economic status, apathy and indifference, the teaching environment, the physical plant, technological prowess and a multitude of other variables.

Until you find a valid way of measuring merit, instituting merit pay would be a disaster. It would be simply another way to destroy our education system.

It isn't the teacher I'm worried about, it is what would happen to the students' education. NCLB is forcing an increasing amount of teaching to the test, can you imagine what would happen if you based a teacher's merit pay on such tests?

The fairest assessment is to take a teacher's body of work, their portfolio, and this can only be done over a period of time. This is why seniority pay has been the norm for so long, because it is about the fairest.

[amandabeech]

48. Don't forget support at home for the teacher's efforts in the classroom.

I'm from an extended family of teachers, and each of them have said that the home environment overall is key, and determines the student's status on many of the criteria that you list.

[brentspeak]

47. Incentive/merit pay is nothing more than "fear" pay

"Merit" pay is an Orweillian term for a system designed to make employees fearful for their jobs. I've personally discovered, as a private sector employee, that various "incentives" management concocts to "motivate" employees always turn out to be nothing more than mechanisms to write this-or-that employee up. "Sell this many of such-and-such product, and you might receive such-and-such bonus!" Ah, but fail to sell such-and-such number product, and your job becomes increasingly in jeopardy. And, of course, the number of products one has to sell to keep that job -- under the transparent ploy of "incentives!" -- keeps getting upped and upped and upped. Speaking as someone who's self-motivated, who enjoys doing a good job simply for the sake of doing a good job, outside "motivation" of that sort does nothing but completely deflate and demoralize me.

One thing that attracts people to the teaching profession is the opportunity to avoid and get away from the rat-race. The absence of back-stabbing, brown-nosing, and favoritism is a great drawing card for teachers. There is nothing "positive" about introducing the goddawful aspects of "incentive" management into education.

[NYC_SKP]

53. That that CAN be the result does not mean that it WILL be the result.

We're talking about pay increases for additional certifications and graduate units, perhaps.

That system already exists in many districts.

The status quo is broken, it does not work.

When I was a teacher, many who were simply awful were paid more than me because of having worked longer.

It's a broken system, there's no incentive to do well beyond love of the students.

And some are just in it for the benefits and the tenure and don't give a fuck for the students.

[alwysdrunk]

77. So you think one should keep ther job just because they have it?

Actualy job performance is a non-factor right? Once you're hired, you can just schelp in everyday, go through the motions until retirement and people are supposed to be okay with that?


Sorry. People are not okay with that.

[brentspeak]

Thanks for admitting that "merit" pay is really about breaking the teacher unions

And there's better ways to evaluate job performance than basing education around standardized testing.

[joeglow3]

134. Where did he mention busting union? nt

[dionysus]

141. answer: he didn't, and brent knows it..

[Stellabella]

54. No. It isn't.

My dh is a teacher at an alternative high school. His kids are usually high, on parole, and consider getting a D a success because at least they passed the class. He's a fabulous teacher, and the kids all adore him, but basing his salary on raising the kid's grades is laughable. And insulting.

And yes, it will come down to more hours. He already works an additional 4-5 hours a day at home preparing lessons, grading papers, and continuing his education.

[polmaven]

64. PRIVATE sector!!!

OMG NO! Not THAT!

[brentspeak]

95. You've got a Hillary avatar

A DLCer. In management or otherwise in the upper-class, ruling over the little people.

[polmaven]

102. I am SOOOOO

not in management or anywhere NEAR the upper income level. Get over it.

[DevonRex]

108. So what? Leave her alone.

[WinkyDink]

88. And that would be how? Please. I'd like to know how students are the equivalent of whatever the

"private sector" deals with.

[Political Heretic]

133. Except that you can't accurately judge teacher merit by grades or test scores alone

Which is what this would do.

[tonysam]

154. No. Schools Aren't Businesses, David.

Teacher pay is based on the civil service system, which is the fairest way to pay people so as to keep favoritism out of the pay process.

"Merit" doesn't exist anyway.

[Deja Q]

3. How did Steve Jobs convince the President that teacher unions are the cause of students' ills?

Granted, there is a downside to unions (pigeon-holing, inflexibility), but with indolent principals and teachers often unable to do a thing because of various laws and lack or inability regarding parenting... and other factors... I don't think unions are the sole cause of the problem here.

[Thrill]

4. I think you need to wait for specifics on the merit pay And

looking at Obama's budget and his stimulus package, comparing him to RAYGUN, shows you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

[cali]

5. Absurd and ignorant.

Not that Obama isn't making mistakes, but only someone with very little knowledge (or a confirmed Obama hater) could possibly believe that Obama is remotely following Reagan's path.

[Deja Q]

6. And media spin too, I think you're right...

[brentspeak]

8. Third possibility:

Informed person who doesn't worship politicians and who holds their feet to the fire.

[cali]

9. not possible in your case. you've displayed your malice and ignorance

too many times here.

[brentspeak]

10. Ha! So says the Queen Mother of Flamebaiting Loudmouths

[cali]

62. really? I challenge you to find a flamebait thread

of mine. I don't post the flamebait idiocy you do.

[dionysus]

76. you fail to see the difference;

1) cali goes off on idiotic OPs
2) you post idiotic OPs

see the connection?

:rofl:

[dionysus]

67. ding ding ding

:thumbsup:

[gcomeau]

13. Hyopthetical possibility: Yes.

Reality: No.

The claim was idiotic.

He's pouring money into the financial sector because when he took over it was on the verge of fucking collapse which would plunge the nation into economic catastrophe. You can argue the merit of the tactic for dealing with the roblem but comparing that to Republicans who pour money into Wall Street under any and all conditions just because that's just who they think should have it all and then saying "See!!! The SAME!!!" is infantile.

The only other piece of evidence presented? "He think something I don't like about teacher pay."

Conclusion: He's Reagan!!!!! Forget pushing on closing Gitmo. Forget chasing politics out of science. Forget moving on Iraq withdrawal. Forget pushing for the most progressive budget proposals the country has seen in half a century... screw all that, Obama is Reagan because of teacher... fucking... pay.

That's just freaking stupid.

[brentspeak]

16. I like that he's closing Gitmo, and that he's moving to revamp the FDA

But he's not appropriately aggressive in getting us out of Iraq, and the other two things I mentioned stink. Either you 100% nationalize the toxic financial institutions -- right away -- or you simply let them die -- you don't give the thieves trillions more of our taxpayer dollars and expect anything positive to happen.

[Chulanowa]

61. Still bitter about Hillary, huh?

[brentspeak]

96. Er, I supported Edwards

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DevonRex]

94. Fuck off with the "worship politicians" bullshit.

[dionysus]

111. what she said

:hi:

[CreekDog]

136. you aren't informed or else you would realize that Obama is undoing most of what Reagan stood for

if you were informed you would know that.

you aren't.

do you actually teach??? God help us.

[Danger Mouse]

142. Hahaha!

:rofl:

[alwysdrunk]

20. Beyond ignorant and purely inflammatory

He's not giving trillions to banks just to do it and make the bankers hapy, he's trying to save the banking system for collaspe.

Merit pay for teachers is the best and most fair way to increase teacher salaries and attract higer quality teachers to the profession.


Reagon? Are you serious?

[Honeycombe8]

51. Too true. Obama is further away from Reagan than Clinton was, for sure.

And Clinton wasn't close to being Reagan.

[DevonRex]

100. Not to mention intentionally insulting and disrupting.

[firedupdem]

7. I don't care for merit pay because I don't think the playing field

is level. However, I don't compare this President to anybody. He stands alone.

[MarjorieG]

11. Giving trillions not ideological choice, as would be Reagan

Obama is no Friedman, even if from U of Chicago. I know people want to pitch that.

Arne D. did okay in Chicago with his education experiments, which wouldn't transfer to NYC, exactly. Still need change in orthodoxy, though.

[jefferson_dem]

12. Oh please.

We need an aggresive reform agenda to fix our broken education system. No more "sacred cows"... Reward excellent teachers and dismiss the bad ones.

I applaud the President's bold vision.

Reaganesque? Nah.

For decades, Washington has been trapped in the same stale debates that have paralyzed progress and perpetuated our educational decline. Too many supporters of my party have resisted the idea of rewarding excellence in teaching with extra pay, even though we know it can make a difference in the classroom. Too many in the Republican Party have opposed new investments in early education, despite compelling evidence of its importance. So what we get here in Washington is the same old debate about it's more money versus more reform, vouchers versus the status quo. There's been partisanship and petty bickering, but little recognition that we need to move beyond the worn fights of the 20th century if we're going to succeed in the 21st century. (Applause.)

I think you'd all agree that the time for finger-pointing is over. The time for holding us -- holding ourselves accountable is here. What's required is not simply new investments, but new reforms. It's time to expect more from our students. It's time to start rewarding good teachers, stop making excuses for bad ones. It's time to demand results from government at every level. It's time to prepare every child, everywhere in America, to out-compete any worker, anywhere in the world. (Applause.) It's time to give all Americans a complete and competitive education from the cradle up through a career. We've accepted failure for far too long. Enough is enough. America's entire education system must once more be the envy of the world -- and that's exactly what we intend to do.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-of-the-President-to-the-Hispanic-Chamber-of-Commerce/

[Smarmie Doofus]

17. How do you determine who's who?

i.e. Who's "excellent" and who's a "bad one".

To school principals, "excellent" usually means "obedient" and "cooperative".

And "bad ones" usually means "more knowledgeable about education than the principal".

[jefferson_dem]

18. How do we make merit-based judgments in any professional endeavor?

Obama has already said he is not recommending a "one size fits all" solitary measure of excellence, especially based on top-down administrator reviews. Instead, it's important to consider - context and progress.

As expected, the unions met this reform initiative with a lukewarm reception.

I look forward to seeing how this plays out when more specifics are rolled out.

[Smarmie Doofus]

25. IF " more specifics are rolled out".

>>> look forward to seeing how this plays out when more specifics are rolled out. >>>>

He's doing the "all things to all people" thing.

He sounds like he doesn't know anything about the way public schools actually function. And , if he's relying on Sec. Duncan, he's taking advice from someonme who's as clueless as he is.

So we await specifics.

[last_texas_dem]

26. The difference, to me, is that teachers are being judged on the

"performance" of their students. In most professional endeavors, an employee is largely in control of the factors relating to their own performance.

Merit pay for teachers is inextricably tied up with the students that they are teaching. If every teacher across America were teaching the same classroom with the same students, it would possible to fairly implement a merit pay system. Otherwise, I have yet to hear of any fair way of putting the idea into practice, and I am hopeful that the Democrats in Congress will have enough backbone to defeat this aspect of Obama's agenda.

[Smarmie Doofus]

14. Does Sidwell Friends have "merit pay"?

Or is it just for the little people?

[CBR]

74. I have to say...

my hubby teaches at a private school and there certainly is merit pay and other similar measures. No idea about Sidwell. I understand the concerns about a teacher being judged on student performance as parents are the key missing variable in the equation; however, reforms must be made to the system because it is not working. We can start with how public schools are financed.

[Smarmie Doofus]

129. How exactly do we know that "the system is not working."?

I have friends in the tony suburbs north of NYC. Their PSs are OUTSTANDING. They RAVE about their schools. There is no merit pay and the chief dissatisfaction is the amount of time spent on test prep... an innovation that was begun in the "lets collect mega-hunks of data" craze ushered in by NCLB.

OTOH, I work in the NYC schools. The system here is an immense disaster. No one has produuced any... ahem.... *data*... to establish or even to suggest that substandard teaching is to blame. Nor is there any reason to believe, logically, that this is true.

>>>>however, reforms must be made to the system because it is not working. >>>>

SOME systems, such as mine, are not working. Some are working quite well.
Reforms should be made to the systems that are NOT working in order improve them but I don't get the jump in logic to "merit pay". There is no reason I know of no reason to suspect that NYC teachers are going to be motivated to work *harder* if they get more money. And that this is going to translate into higher test scores. It's actually kind of amusing. What's wrong with this system has nothing to do with lack of monetary inducements to work harder.

Trust me.... things aren't bad in this school system 'cause we're all locked into a "pay scale."

>>>We can start with how public schools are financed.>>>>

Now yer talking. But it goes way beyond that. We have to figure out ways to lure the middle class back into the public schools. Educated people expect a lot from their kids schools and they tend to get it.

[Political Tiger]

15. LOL!

[David Dunham]

19. Private sector employees do not have tenure. Teachers should get flexible (merit) pay too

Teachers should be evaluated and paid on flexible scales like private sector employees.

[Smarmie Doofus]

24. Evaluated *how*? nt

[alwysdrunk]

73. Evulauated *somehow*

Don't you agree that there are good, bad, and average teachers? I know I had good teachers and bad ones. Is there really NO way to sort that out? Is the only way to say all teachers are they saem? pay them on the basis of how long they've been teaching?

[Smarmie Doofus]

145. Yes, I agree.

I had good, bad and average teachers all through grades 1-12...in private religious school. Note: there was no union, K-8; and there was a ridiculously weak union for SOME of the faculty 9-12.

Sorting them out is most problemmatic. Letting the principal do it is beyond silly. The principal will give the goodies to the inner circle... regardless of how good, bad or average a given teacher. That's just the way it is and perhaps you have to be familar with public school culture to realize how axiomatic that is.

Basing salary on test scores seems utterly impractical. The teachers that get the swiftest classes, wiil score the highest, naturally. I suppose a complex formula could be devised where IN THEORY teachers of kids who made the most statistical *improvement* over a given period of time could be given a bonus. The reality is that public schools are highly politically charged environments where such an outcome would be almost impossible to deliver.

>>>Is the only way to say all teachers are they saem?>>>

I'm not sure. Are we really sure this is such a problem? Is the fact that teachers are paid the same really "the problem" with what's wrong with the public schools in Amnerica. I seriously doubt it.

>>>pay them on the basis of how long they've been teaching?>>>

Theoretically, at least, one becomes more proficient at somethin over time. So a 10 year teacher should be better at it than a rookie. I agree that this model has limits. Some people burn out and/or get complacent. Younger people tend to have more energy... a huge asset when you're dealing esp with younger kids.

There are pluses to scaling pay to length of service, however. There is ENORMOUS turnover in teaching. This is a given. Scaling the pay to longevity tends to mitigate that and promote stability.

[izzybeans]

126. You don't think teachers aren't already evaluated?

[babylonsister]

21. "You're confusing me with someone else" Right.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=8235938#8235945

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=8254327


:eyes:

[firedupdem]

22. aw snap.

:eyes:

[jefferson_dem]

23. Thanks.

Perspective.

:eyes: indeed.

[brentspeak]

31. You're still confusing me with someone else

Where are all the threads of me "attacking" Obama between the time the primaries ended and Election Day? That was the whole point of my "you're confusing me with someone else" post.

On a second note -- apparently, on your planet, we're supposed to uncritically support Obama no matter what. We're supposed to be idiots and just take more of the same corporate-directed B.S. screwing up our lives.

[babylonsister]

37. Those were your words. Oh! And here's another:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8255993#8256172

[Spazito]

86. LOL and....

:thumbsup:



:yourock:

[Danger Mouse]

27. That comparison is just plain ridiculous.

[DevonRex]

97. Yes it is. And from what Babylonsister posted above, it's his usual bullshit.

[Cali_Democrat]

28. Flamebait

nt

[Jennicut]

34. Obviously.

[ZombieHorde]

29. Obama >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FDR

FDR rounded people up because of their race, and then forced them into 'camps'.

[Danger Mouse]

41. One aspect of FDR that tends to be suger-coated on DU.

[vaberella]

60. I don't know how you could sugar coat that. You can't run from apologists. They're everyhwere. n/t

[brentspeak]

99. Interesting that we now have anti-FDRers here on DU

Where in my OP did I sugar coat the Japanese internment camps?

[vaberella]

104. I never claimed to be anti-FDR.

Secondly...my reponse was in no way to your post. My response was to the person who posted above me, who made a comment about FDR. And there are apologists out there to FDR. If I'm responding to you directly I would have posted independently to your OP. However, I posted to the individual above...not you.

[brentspeak]

106. Then I was barking up the wrong tree, then. Apologies.

[vaberella]

109. De nada. n/t

[damonm]

98. A good point...

and that WAS bad. OTOH, the internment may have prevented a bloodbath, given public mood at the time.
I don't think there WAS a good choice available there -but the internment, as it was done, wasn't even the best of the bad choices...

[cliffordu]

32. Yawn....Ho hum.......

same old same old.....

[Jennicut]

33. Reagan wanted limited to no government in our lives. Is that Obama?

Are you living under a rock? Supporting merit pay is not the same as being like Reagan. I hate when people post inflammatory crap just to get attention.

[Occam Bandage]

36. lol.

:rofl:

[LittleClarkie]

39. Number 2 is news?

I knew about that during the primaries. Where were you?

[Zynx]

40. Milton Friedman would have hated these economic policies with a passion.

He maintained that fiscal policy was next to useless for stimulating the economy. Government spending and regulation was a prescription for disaster under his view of the world.

You are veering closer to Joe the Plumber than to Richard Dawkins on the analytical scale.

[Median Democrat]

42. ROFL! Obama As Ronald Reagan? Pass Me What You Are Smoking!

:rofl:

[dionysus]

70. i don't think you want to huff glue with the OP...

:rofl:

[GoneOffShore]

43. I'm going to refer you to this post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8256126

[PBS Poll-435]

44. I don't like this thread

:(

[GoneOffShore]

45. Epic fail

[donheld]

49. Bullshit

[Honeycombe8]

50. Obama hasn't "given" Wall St. crooks anything. The TARP did that.

Voted on last year by Democrats in Congress. Do a letter to your Congressman and Senators, if you disapprove of their vote on that.

The Obama admin. has passed a stimulus bill (no giveaways in that to Wall St.), and is currently trying to pass its budget.

The Obama admin. has administered the doling out of some of the TARP that was passed last year, which was to be doled out in phases.

Crooks or not, I don't think any of us wants our financial system to collapse. But the Obama admin. is going to try to cap financial companies' top dogs' pay, if they accept government funds.

As for the teacher pay issue, I'm not familiar enough with the system to know if the merit pay is good. But I do know he's trying to overhaul the education system. I think Buffett may be right in saying that maybe this isn't the right time to work on ALL issues. We need to get the economy better first. I tend to agree with that.

As for merit pay generally, though, that's the way the non-government world works. It seems to work okay there. The devil is in the details, though. How do we decide one teacher is more meritorious than another? You assume it has to do with the brightest students. But I haven't read that anywhere. It COULD be gauged by improvement. He seems to be against straight test scores. Merit isn't always fair in the public sector, either, though. The real world is a bitch.

[Bluenorthwest]

68. Bad way to deal with education issues

by saying 'the real world is a bitch'. Great. Tell that to the kids whose teachers left for better places, less control, more freedom and more money.
And you really think that merit works well in the private sector? Those in charge are always there because they deserve it. GW Bush agrees with you, and sends his thanks for the compliment. I note that on Wall St, one gets piles of 'bonus' money even if one fails to the point of destruction of the entire system. Merit? Where do you find merit among the makers of the Depression Part 2? Do any of the Wall St folks ever get replaced for lack of merit, ever?
In a world where failure is rewarded with millions, where war crimes are ignored in order to 'look forward', setting teachers apart as the scape goats of society seems cheap to me. Use the children as a device to allow adults to feel they are being wise, even as they let the world burn and give the arsonists a bonus.
Fire all the teachers, that will not make up for letting crooks run the roost and walk free to steal again. It just won't.
Merit pay for teachers, free theft without accountability for Wall St just does not sit right with me.

[Teaser]

52. this post, in handy jpeg form....

[HughMoran]

55. If you define the world using your pencil point world view

Yes, you are 100% correct :rofl:

[zulchzulu]

56. The last thing Milton Friedman would have done is help rescue banks...

Perhaps you don't really know what you're talking about...

As for the cartoon logic that one is either FDR or Reagan, that's just foolish nonsense.

As for merit pay, I know the pros and cons of the issue. I wouldn't rule out some conditions of merit pay where it could improve teacher goals and perhaps attract more people into the field of education with better pay. It's not all black and white and no shades of gray.

[brentspeak]

57. No, I just didn't write my OP clearly enough

I meant to connect Milton Friedman only to the merit-pay proposal.

As I mentioned in another post, many teachers enjoy not having to deal with the demoralizing rat-race mentality. I can't imagine too many people wanting to become teachers if they knew that's what they would be getting into. So no - merit pay is not much of an attraction.

[zulchzulu]

103. I doubt Milton Friedman would even want to get near "merit pay" either

Friedman was for laissez-faire tactics that would fly in the face of any kind of meritocratic gestures. He'd say if a teacher didn't want to teach, another would take their place through the rapids of the free market. Merit pay would be based on some type of "regulation". Friedman was all about letting the blood pour and see who lives.

[DevonRex]

144. Quite right. The whole OP made me

:eyes:

[FrenchieCat]

58. Whoa!

[Hippo_Tron]

59. Milton Friedman would favor letting the banks fail

And that way the "free markets" could take care of everything while people can't buy groceries or pay their rent while the "free market" does its thing. And the federal government didn't even do anything with education when FDR was in office.

But please continue talking when you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

[FSogol]

63. Bullshit. EOM

[BeyondGeography]

65. Somewhere in hell, Milton Freidman is cackling at you

[dionysus]

66. cough *bullshit* cough

:eyes:

huffing glue is bad, hmmmkay?

[Dinger]

69. Hard To Argue With That (nt)

[berni_mccoy]

71. "You are fucking up. Yes, fucking the fuck up"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8256126&mesg_id=8256126

[Spazito]

87. Damn, I was gonna post that link but you beat me to it....

it is perfect for this thread!

:rofl:

[berni_mccoy]

112. :-D

yes, it is perfect for this thread.

[ClarkUSA]

72. Another week, another delusional anti-Obama attack OP by you. What else is new?

[dionysus]

75. i think he tossed back a few too many of these before posting;

[ClarkUSA]

78. rofl! Yup, that's his favorite brew alright.

What a hoot. :rofl:

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[anonymous171]

80. FDR would have totally let the banks and the financial institutions fail.

:sarcasm: Things are different now. Back then our economy was based on jobs that produced stuff. Now our entire economy is based on services (thank you Raygun.) We need to keep the stock market afloat, unfortunately.

[anonymous171]

81. DUPE

[kenfrequed]

82. Not well written

Actually there should be a post that deals specifically with this support of so-called 'merit pay.' I think it is a problem-position that I disagree with completely and I think we can all do so in an intelligent fashion.

The problem with this post is it gives certain conservative DLC-types cover from flack they would ordinarily recieve for standing out in favor of 'merit pay.' We need to discuss the issue and point out percisely why it doesn't work.

[harun]

83. Obama does not support oppression of the Middle Class, Reagan did.

[WI_DEM]

84. Typical far left hogwash. Obama is nothing like Reagan and much like FDR who had zealots on the far

left of his party telling him too that he wasn't doing enough.

[ProSense]

85. That presumes the OP is far left.

Lot of pretenders latching on just because they're bitter.

[blindpig]

91. K&R

Boy howdy, what a herd of True Believers

That river in Egypt must be deeper than the Mariannas Trench.

[ProSense]

92. "herd of True Believers"? Because people think comparing Obama to Reagan is moronic? Maybe

you should read the entire thread. You'd realize that the OP argument silly. Start: here, here and here.

[blindpig]

101. You go right ahead and savor the crumbs...

while the ruling class gets all of the red meat.

[ProSense]

105. "while the ruling class gets all of the red meat"?

You're justifying nonsensicalBS by claiming people who deal in facts are savoring crumbs? Do you always become self-righteous when engaging in willful ignorance?

[DevonRex]

107. Who is that person you're talking to?

[dionysus]

114. dude, you're talking to some who named their DU user a swine that can't see. think about it...

:rofl:

[DevonRex]

117. Ahh. We have a visitor.

:rofl:

[blindpig]

119. Here's some nonsense:

Most of Obama's economic appointees are finance sector suckfish, the same crowd the facilitated this mess.

Obama is ratcheting up the war in Afghanistan and is not fully withdrawing from Iraq.(pay close attention to the fine print of the SOFA.)

Despite the desires of an overwhelming number of Americans single payer health care is off the agenda.

Now, compare that to those paltry 'accomplishments' which you referred to and tell me who is willfully ignorant.

[ProSense]

120. You're right

that is nonsense.

[blindpig]

127. .

[Danger Mouse]

143. How dare we object to the OP comparing a person many of us deeply respect to Reagan who is only...

one of the most hated and divisive figures here, PERIOD!
How dare we get upset by that??
We should be kissing the OP's ass and telling him how brave he is for expressing his opinion on an internet message board. :eyes:

[blindpig]

147. "How dare I?"

I dunno, I just do.

Raygun was scum and your respect is misplaced. Pay attention and notice the connections, look at the results(or lack thereof), critically examine the hype. This ain't 'Change', it's bidness as usual. And always, ask, "Who profits?"

[Danger Mouse]

149. Sorry, looks like my sarcasm wasn't clear.

Basically, what I was trying to say is this:
Comparing Obama to Reagan (who is easily one of the most hated figures on DU) is guaranteed flamebait, and the OP should not be surprised when people who respect Obama and resent the comparison object to it.

[DevonRex]

93. Total BULLSHIT flamebait. As usual, just more stupid. Toddler.

[dionysus]

116. oh no, you've got it all wrong!!!!11!!! if we had elected smoove "slow hand" johnny E,

none ofthis would be a problem!!!
:rofl:
(see post #96)

[DevonRex]

118. Heh. Guess that $400 haircut doesn't put him in the "ruling class"

category. So what's the cutoff? Is it a $500 haircut that puts one in the ruling class? I really need to know where the cutoff is, since I spend like $12 every few months or so. But you never know. I might win the lottery and I certainly don't want to go over the line.

[dionysus]

122. i think you need your own hedge fund to make it official...

:)

[DevonRex]

123. Oh. Well then. Guess I'm safe.

:evilgrin:

[brentspeak]

125. For some reason, the RFK avatar doesn't go well with you

[dionysus]

128. if you had couched your argument from a DK perspective, at least you *could* be seen as sincere,

but seeing you came from the camp of a phoney-ass fake populist with a $400 haircut, hedge fund, and fake poverty center (forget cheating on his dying spouse, the guy is a total FRAUD), you just come across as a blazing hypocrit...

:rofl:

[brentspeak]

131. You were saying something about "hypocrit"?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8180391&mesg_id=8180828

[dionysus]

139. so i made a snarky comment about the Kooch. At least he is sincere, unlike the sleazy phoney

"smoove johnny"

i take it you have nothing, so you have to comb my past posts?

:shrug:

[Hamlette]

110. my guess is you were not around for Reagan, and if you were, you remember it differently

Reagan trashed ppl who needed assistance ("welfare queens") making the rules for owning cars while receiving food stamps a joke (until 2-3 years ago, it was the value of the car regardless of how much you owed on it) he destroyed free state 2 year colleges in California when he was governor, he sneered at education and anyone educated which seems to be the opposite of Obama to me and foremost, Reagan said government is the problem. That turned a whole generation against and away from government leaving us with the likes of Bush and Cheney who just looted our country. They blindly believed Reagan and thought at 22 year old could restructure the stock market in Iraq and open it with no training or a sociologist could run the Iraq health care system (proclaiming that Iraq's biggest health threat was smoking, yep in the middle of the war with no functioning hospitals he put all the money to rebuild the health system into an anti smoking campaign) and a guy who judges show horses can run emergency services
Reagan was an actor looking for sound bites to help win reelection Bush believed him!

And I don't see him giving wall street crooks money, I see him shoring up the FDIC deposits and helping ppl with mortgages in the swiftest dive of an economy ever

[DevonRex]

115. This is nothing more than a bullshit post aimed at saying we were all duped

into voting for a stealth RW candidate. From a disgruntled Edwards supporter, no less. Give me a fucking break.

It's been pointed out over and over again that you do nothing but bash Obama and insult those of us who voted for him and who are not willing to whine and cry and say the sky is falling.

We'll leave the Chicken Little act to you. You do it SO well. :sarcasm:

[dave29]

121. he is veering more towards Obama. Lets stop comparing apples to shmapples

:)

[firedupdem]

124. Thank You....this president is in a class all to himself.

People need to get over themselves.

[TheWraith]

130. You hate Obama. WE GET IT.

Now please stop polluting the forums with your fantasies of doom and betrayal.

[brentspeak]

132. No, you didn't get it

[dionysus]

140. no, he nailed it pretty good. here, this will make you feel better;

[CreekDog]

135. For such a bold statement, that's all you've got???

you said nothing about environmental policy
nothing about increased support for medicaid and the unemployed
nothing about help for homeowners
you said nothing about his stance in favor of universal health care
you said nothing about payroll tax reductions to the poor and working class (Reagan raised those payroll taxes actually)

you came up with two examples and automatically jumped to a big conclusion.

fail. :eyes:

[olegramps]

137. You will get excellent teachers when you are willing to pay them the salary they deserve.

It is just that damn simple. You can't attract people that have invested years in becoming knowledgeable scientists when you are only willing to pay them Walmart wages. Most young teachers today leave in five years. Why? For better pay.

Plus just how many of these "concerned" parents will take out two or three hours a day to study with their kids? Hell, they are too damn busy standing on the sidelines of the little league soccer, baseball, football, dancing classes, gymnastic lessons, etc. with the rest of the parents. They all seem to have time for this crap, but by the time they get home at 9:00 and have a quick meal they are ready for a little TV, glass of wine and the Late Night Show. Not to mention that the kids are exhausted and have long ago craped out. This is what I see within my extended family. Too damn much emphasis on the wrong things.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

138. He campaigned on both.

You're either a moron for not paying attention or you're intentionally trying to be a troll. You pick.

[ncteechur]

146. "Well, there you go again."

[La Lioness Priyanka]

148. no he is really not. nt

[CTLawGuy]

150. -letting tax rates on top 5%

return to Clinton-era levels? Not reaganesque.
-solving economic crisis by increasing government spending to create jobs? Same
-removing ban on stem cell research? ditto
-Lilly ledbetter act: allowing women more time to sue for discriminatory pay? doesn't sound like Reagan to me.

EPIC FAIL

[Arkana]

151. *WHAM*WHAM*WHAM*WHAM*WHAM*

[opihimoimoi]

152. POLAR OPPOSITES....President Obama has a Brain...

[tonysam]

153. Yes, He Is.

I saw this disturbing aspect of Barack Obama a long time ago, but I was and am willing to give him a chance because the alternative was and is unthinkable.

He is going to lose re-election if he keeps up with this neoliberal crap. He needs to represent the people who elected him, not the business interests whose financial support he thinks he needs, and those advisers like Rubin, Summers, etc., who never should have appointed.