Democratic Underground

[berni_mccoy]

Remember this?

"Constructive criticism of Democrats or the Democratic Party is permitted. When doing so, please keep in mind that most of our members come to this website in order to get a break from the constant attacks in the media against our candidates and our values. Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents are not welcome here."

I'm growing quite tired of the lack of adherence to this fundamental premise of the site.

People bash Obama here as much as they did Bush. The criticism is 99% knee-jerk reaction to MSM spin and a small group of people who can't get over the primaries who have a predisposition to that MSM spin.

[wyldwolf]

1. see here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8303604

[berni_mccoy]

3. Sorry I missed that thread. I agree whole-heartedly.

[BrklynLiberal]

167. Great minds......

[Lint Head]

2. Here! Here! or There! There! Which every is most appropriate.

:dem:

[mckara]

146. That's Hear! Hear!

It's an often made mistake.

[tekisui]

4. Thanks for the reminder.

It is getting hard to discuss real issues with the constant battle over President Obama's personality. Too many are bashing him as a person, or every move he makes, rather than dealing with issues that are important.

[Stinky The Clown]

45. Actually, as I see it, a lot of the bashing is between DUers and Obama is simply a common thread ...

.... that binds these pissing matches together. To paraphrase: "I like Obama well enough. It is **you** I can't stand." (<---not directed at you)

And a fair bit of this goes back to the primaries.

[goclark]

5. K and R

[noiretextatique]

6. some of it is problem a concerted effort eom

[geiger]

13. I agree with that, too. it's hard to swallow that a lot of it is coming from oldtime DU'ers.

I always look to see if they are new to the board for mischief, but maybe not.

It's disconcerting, and it worries me that it may be a form of displaced denial as to the severity of the current world economic and social condition.

[Stinky The Clown]

48. That's some of it, probably. Buit there is also just this pent up animosity .....

.... between some DUers and others that has absolutely nothing to do with Obama. Its just that Obama as a topic is one way to make sure the stick that gets poked gets poked into an eye.

If this were a board about ice cream, butter brickle fans would be beating up the rocky road fans and vice versa for no other reason than simply they didn't like each other .... and all of them probably enjoy both flavors.

[SlingBlade]

115. High number of post dosent make them

Long time D.Uers.
I've been keeping track, Many of them are not long time D.Uers
Probably friggin freepers

[geiger]

153. not surprised. didn't want to believe it. but not surprised. thanks for your work.

[newtothegame]

154. Haha you've been keeping track? That's our freakin problem right there then...

If we could get back to discussing the issues instead of spending our time in some desperate search and purge of trolls, we might actually join together to make some kind of a DIFFERENCE on these issues.

[geek tragedy]

116. Well, a lot of old time DU'ers turned out to be scumbags.

A fair number are now circulating Obama birth certificate theories.

[Speed8098]

128. Really?

Well, a lot of old time DU'ers turned out to be scumbags.

Can you name a few? I haven't been around in awhile.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ieoeja]

179. This DU primary season reminded me of the aftermath of my divorce.

I was married to an African-American woman who grew tired of me. Of course, she didn't just wake up one morning, decide she was tired of me and announced her intention to divorce. She proceeded down the normal course of turning her affections elsewhere (i.e. "cheating"). So when the divorce arrived and all of that finally came out...

Surely having been so ill-treated by a Black woman, I could finally see how worthless all those niggers were, right?

I got rid of a lot of friends in short order. Oddly enough, my ex-wife is not one of them. We are still sort-of family.


It was like that during the primaries. Quite a number of DUers who argued tooth and nail against all forms of racism found that, when faced with the reality of a Black man as president - they - just - couldn't - go there.

You will still see Obama supporters toss out the occasional accusation of racism at his opponents here. But I don't think many racists survived. Eventually 99.9% of those who could not accept a Black man as president became so obvious in their racism that they were tombstoned.


I can think of three other large DU contingents strongly opposed to Obama. The Greens and other far Left (by USA standards) who despise all Democrats anyway. They have always been on DU and always will, I suppose. Though they know to take a break during the general election as support of the Democratic candidate at that point is a DU rule.

Then there are the cult of personality types who get attached to one particular candidate and just can not stand to lose. The largest group would have been Bill Clinton fans who transferred their support to the next best thing: his wife. This group was particularly insulting during the primaries. Everyone but them was a cultist. Everyone else was naive. All other supporters were just stupid children. They were terribly snarky. One of them died not long ago, and it was really weird seeing many Clinton supporters openly attest to how they admired how snarky, mean, vicious and vile that DUer was.

A subset of the above group would be the DLC supporters here. But they are just greedy and saw the Clintons as their road to riches. And Obama has now given them enough pie to satisfy their greed.

Finally there is another group that, like the racists, developed an irrational hatred of Obama. Only this one based, sadly, in a good cause. Everyone knew that 2008 was the year we would elect our first female president. They see Obama as having crushed that dream. Most of these are people who likely would have loved Obama otherwise. But the loss of that dream overwhelms all other thoughts. Maybe in time....

[geiger]

155. they need to go back and take a history class or two

if they would just try to read any history book would be a start.

[liberal N proud]

139. BINGO

[geiger]

7. I have been wanting to find a way to say this. Well put. Thanks.

[Every Man A King]

12. DWEEB!!! n/t

[geiger]

14. indweeb!

[omega minimo]

8. Democratic Underground loves threads about Democratic Underground.

some of the bashing (and i just saw a really CLUEless one) seems intentionally flamey and trollish.

There are also folks here who advocate constructive criticism and there are even kool aid drinkers.

Will we reach a point of acknowledging the difference b/w critiquing the policies and discrediting the person?

[berni_mccoy]

10. Until people stop reacting immediately to sensational headlines and without doing some minimal

research themselves, then no, the problem won't go away.

[omega minimo]

16. Sensational Headlines trump Minimal Research

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8304575

[Stinky The Clown]

49. Very perceptive.

I agree with you. A lot of this is to incite and then to get back at someone. And that goes for those who appear to be Obama supporters and those who appear to be Obama bashers.

[omega minimo]

66. Here's the thing, Stinky

:spray: Stinky! The Clown!

"I agree with you. A lot of this is to incite and then to get back at someone."

A lot of it is unnecessary. Why, you say?

"And that goes for those who appear to be Obama supporters and those who appear to be Obama bashers."

..... because nobody can tell who's who and who they "appear to be" is all mucked up by confusion and discussion shoved off track by trigger happy keyboardin'!!!!

Truth is, the basic concept of being able to chew gum, walk, support our president and comment/contribute/commiserate on administration policies is NOT


THAT



HARD.

:bounce:





imho :yoiks:


and btw, if we quite carpin on each other for ten minutes it would be a breeze to knock out all the you-know-whats here starting these threads to make more trouble.

[FLyellowdog]

9. Thank you...

[DevonRex]

11. Anybody else considering leaving?

Or is it just me?

[firedupdem]

15. I know I've scaled back...finding other stuff to do.

When I read FUCK OBAMA and stuff like that, I know something is wrong.

[DevonRex]

17. Know of any other good boards? I don't tolerate "fuck Obama" posts.

[firedupdem]

20. Nope...I found this one by accident, looking for other like minded

people.

[jenmito]

22. You can always put posters on ignore. n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

50. How many times do you turn off your ignore list cuz it KILLS you to know who just said what?

Go ahead .... you can admit it.

:+

[TexasObserver]

53. That IS the way to go. I do it every day.

I have a simple policy. Anyone who starts threads that I consider the work of a HATER, I put on Ignore right then. That means I never see any thread they post here. You can be assured that anyone who has chronically started threads that cross the line do not appear on my screen.

That quickly gets rid of all the people who sign up to criticize, or all those who have been around a while and never did like Obama.

I cannot possibly read every thread, so why have to see those negative threads at all? I can hear that crap on cable news on Fox News or CNN any time I want.

[TwilightZone]

28. Ignore is your friend.

I mean that sincerely. While the "fuck Obama" crowd is decidedly vocal, they are also quite few in number. Put a few of them on Ignore and you might be surprised at the transformation.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SlingBlade]

117. WTF

Your going to let a small group of Obama Bashers run you out of D.U

Over my friggin dead body, They will have to Kick me out
Remember the early days dude, This is a cake walk


:kick:

[geiger]

21. It's been getting tiresome and I have spent less and less time on the board....

[City Lights]

24. Not leaving, but definitely not spending as much time here as I used to. nt

[Occam Bandage]

34. I've been spending less time here.

I can read petty, emotional bullshit based on half-understood issues anywhere.

[DevonRex]

36. I agree. It's becoming a question of what I want to be associated with.

Sure, I can use the ignore function and hide threads. But that doesn't mean they aren't there. And after awhile, if I am so much in the minority here, then I have to accept that I'm the one who is out of step.

[K Gardner]

35. Rarely spend any time here. Not sure what has happened to this board but its

depressing and not worth reading. One would think no one here had lived through the last 8 years. Its not criticism, it is the MANNER and tone of criticism allowed here. Intelligent discourse is always welcome. Just find little of it here these days.

[DevonRex]

38. Funny thing is, I'm as liberal as liberal can get. I tend more toward socialism

than anything else. I'd even like a Department of Peace. But I'm also a pragmatist. If I see slow but steady movement to the left then I'm pretty happy. I don't pretend to have all the answers and I'm suspect of people who do, especially people who aren't actually involved in trying to implement those answers they pretend to have.

I'm suspect of the gloom and doomers, those who declare failure when we've only had a democratic president since January. My question is whether they want to make things better or if they want to demoralize us so that we CANNOT make anything better. I know what my reaction is when I come here: depression. Complete depression.

[K Gardner]

43. Beautifully said ! n/t

[ms liberty]

80. I agree with this so much - I wish I could rec it............ n/t

[kestrel91316]

95. They WANT to demoralize us. And it's working.

[Hekate]

100. I think you're right about that, kestrel. It's not just counterproductive, some of it's sabotage.

Whether it's of the board, the Dem party, the Prez, or the Progressive movement -- take your pick...

[totodeinhere]

187. Sometimes I think they want the pukes to win the next election just so they can have a good...

excuse to bitch some more. Some people are never satisfied no matter what.

BTW, if I were a mode I would delete every "F*** you Obama post."

[bjobotts]

122. I guess I just haven't seen much of it here. But I ignore name callers etc.

[bjobotts]

124. Maybe you could copy and paste what you are referring to cause some get huffy easily.

[bjobotts]

125. I honestly haven't seen much "Obama bashing" here or unsupported criticism.

[Danger Mouse]

47. Don't you dare!

:hug:
Edit: I don't spend as much time here as I used to.

[stillcool]

63. I've been in this space before..

a break is often necessary. It's my choice to spend time in a negatively charged atmosphere, or to turn away and find something constructive to do..but I can never stay away very long. It's like quitting drinking.

[Number23]

65. Dev, you know that you are not alone

There are many here who feel that way. And it's a MF'ing shame (please excuse my language but nothing else fits)

[PM7nj]

69. Absolutely.

I don't come here very often any more. After seeing some of the shit posted lately, I don't think I will be staying.

[espiral]

71. long gone

I have essentially left, except for the occasional brief return once in a while. I got very sick of two things: the hideous behaviour (being cursed at, called an ethnic slur, endless snide remarks about my icon and sig, reading posts where people openly called women bitches, made horrible personal remarks about opposition politicians' children, etc.); and the mandatory Obama cheerleading squad.

US Democrats have not the vaguest clue just how far right the entire US system and social culture still are by world standards, even their wing of it. What they think of as 'progressive' is frequently anything but that; and places like this really bring that sad reality out of hiding. The US Democratic Party and its membership are perhaps centrist at *best*, more like the centre-right opposition to the hard right.

Every so often, I come back to this site if I see something funny posted from that 'Young Turks' program, and that is all.

[amborin]

114. center right, exactly

[bjobotts]

126. Ah come on. You don't come and watch the videos of Maddow or Olbermann??

[ekwhite]

144. In this country, the politics run from center right to far right

There hasn't been a functional left in this country since the Nixon administration. The Democratic party is about where the Christian Democrats in Europe are, while the Republican party more resembles the French Front National headed by Jean Marie Le Pen.

[Tartiflette]

165. Agreed

It sounds funny, really, when one considers how far right the US media portrays Le Pen to be, yet that same media fails to note that the French Front National policies would pretty much fit snugly under the Republican umbrella. I think you've hit the nail on the head with your positioning of the democrats, although there are notable exceptions within the party that would be considered leftists irrespective of country.

[Forkboy]

76. DU is still cool. GD-P is a fucked assortment of agitators, posers, toadies and flunkies though.

I suggest Valium for anyone who actually takes this particular forum seriously anymore. GD-P is like an I Love Lucy skit run amok.

I mean that in the best of ways, naturally.

[omega minimo]

105. crushing grapes with feet or chocolates speeding off a conveyor belt?

:hi:

[ms liberty]

78. I've been spending less time here lately - a lot less. I'm just tired of the meanness...n/t

[Laurab]

79. I don't think it's just you. I've scaled back a whole lot, too.

It's too much of an addiction to not come here at all, but when I do, invariably, I get disgusted, and don't stay long. Earlier today there were a couple of POSITIVE threads up at the top of the Greatest Page - I think I'll stick around so I can K&R, and not let a vocal minority turn this into obama bashing underground.

[Justitia]

92. I spend a lot less time here, like much, much less. The "fuck Obama" stuff is a huge drag.

I didn't work my ass off trying to get him elected to read that crap here.

[Hekate]

98. Yep. (FUCK OBAMA!!11! Gimme a break.) I used to come here for perspective and knowledge...

... and find both crowded out these days by hysteria on steroids (Under the bus! Under the bus! Fuck Obama!) and doomsayers so far down I can't even see the bottom of the hole they're in (The sky has fallen! We're all doomed! Fuck Obama!)

I would really like some of that DU perspective and fact-finding of yore because I really do have some questions about what the Prez is doing, but I find myself pushed into the cheerleading corner with (oh, you know who you are, dear ladies) just for some relief.

DU isn't helping me anymore, and it used to help me a lot. It's a sad situation.

Hekate

[DevonRex]

162. That is EXACTLY it. I have some questions, too. I don't like everything

the prez is doing, either. But I can't even ask the questions I want to ask because it'll start yet ANOTHER hate-filled pile on. If I wanted to see emotional, hysterical, knee-jerk, uninformed, devious hate I could go to freeperville.

If I want real answers to my questions I just surf the net, like I did before I joined DU.

[vaberella]

136. I have. I've reached a point where there's so many on my block list I can't see half of the posts.

n/t

[elocs]

161. DU is like the Hotel California: you can check out any time you like,

but you can never leave. Never leave in the sense that you will still be counted as a member even after you die.

[NJmaverick]

164. Lack of a better alternative

Is perhaps the saving grace

[politicasista]

194. It's been this way after

every presidential election. It was worse in 2005, and worse in 2009. So, it's not surprising that DU is this ugly.

I have scaled back and stayed out of GDP and taken Sundays (and some Saturdays off too).

[City Lights]

18. K&R

Well said!

[Adelante]

19. I do think it's gone over the top at this point

:thumbsup:

[ellacott]

23. It seems as though this board has jumped the shark

Some of the things I read are unbelievable. Most don't know how to fight and think that kicking and screaming is how you get things done.

I remember when DU used to have an impact on political discourse. Howard Dean even used information here to debunk a right wing lie regarding the Dems. and Jack Abramoff.

It is definately knee-jerk reactions run amuck.

[spoony]

25. The dissenters are the ones standing up for "our values."

No to unnecessary wars. No to blowing off US manufacturing. No to banks getting preference over the rest of us. If all you can do is whine "ban them!" it means, ironically, that you do not share Obama's tolerance for dissent. I hope, and believe, that this site's admins also tolerate it.

[berni_mccoy]

26. I'm not calling for a ban to dissent. I'm calling for people to stop bashing Obama.

There is a difference.

[spoony]

29. If that's the case, then press alert and let the mods decide

what's bashing and what's not. But a lot of people seem to think that saying "Obama is wrong" is bashing, judging by the treatment dissenters get.

[mitchtv]

202. Hey ,a post I can agree with

Keep it up . I won't give up fighting for my rights , and no , I wont STFU. You do a stupid mean spirited thing , you're gonna hear about it

[avaistheone1]

27. I think the criticism is valid in instances when the candidates themselves do

not reflect our values when they govern.

I think the board and democracy is alive when we debate and raise these kinds questions, discrepancies and even hypocrisies. The Democratic party has always been different in that way. We are the critical thinkers. We are not the Bush sheep, although I think some people on this board would prefer it that way.

[merkins]

55. Thanks. Couldn't of said it better.

eom

[stillcool]

64. And if someone doesn't agree with 'we'..

they are "Bush sheep"? I like the banner of 'dissent' that is used for any kind of derogatory statement one chooses to make. Much of this is not opinion based in knowledge, or a sharing of knowledge, but just drive by one-liner hits. I don't call that 'debate' do you?

[Jakes Progress]

84. Just you wait.

They're gonna get you for this.

[Median Democrat]

30. Can We Have A Separate Democratic Form and a Troll Forum?

There are some people who like to spam negative articles and attacks. We really do need a separate forum for folks who want to spam outrage and repeat mainstream media talking points, and one for folks who are supportive of Obama's progressive agenda, and want to organize support for those elements of the President's agenda we agree with.

[pecwae]

31. You have many choices:

Use Hide thread, use Ignore, choose to stay out of threads that upset you, alert the Mods to what you see as bashing since they are the ultimate arbiters or choose to stay away from DU.

[berni_mccoy]

32. I can also call out the absurdity and prolific nature of the bashing, as I've done here.

[NJmaverick]

33. It would be nice to once again visit a DEMOCRATIC Underground

instead of the Obama bashing board

[Uzybone]

39. This weekend has almost done it for me

I'm really thinking of taking a long break from this crap. Living in Texas I hear enough bashing of anything democratic to have to deal with more of the same here. President Obama is juggling 15 explosive balls in the air and I see "FUCK OBAMA" because he hasn't dropped them all to fix the posters number 1 issue? Fuck that.

[firedupdem]

42. Man can I relate! I left michigan and I'm in Nebraska!

That FUCK OBAMA has just about done it for me as well.

[K Gardner]

44. I hear you. I've found out I work with the biggest bunch of Freepers EVER.. at work,

all I hear is Fox News, RW talking points, Obama bashing and name-calling; how they're all stocking up on guns and ammo; how we're heading to socialism or communism, etc. And the scarey thing is, I work in a hospital around supposedly intelligent people. I get enough of it at work not to need to hear it here ! :hi:

[PatSeg]

40. I think it has to do with unrealistic expectations

I knew I wouldn't agree with everything Obama does before he became president, but I still think he is the perfect choice for this time. There are no easy answers to the many problems we face and no quick fix. Things will get better, but it will take time and patience.

I come here less often, but I still check in regularly and ignore the knee-jerk responses. Bushdom was just yesterday for me and I haven't forgotten how bad things could be right now - McCain/Palin in the White House is always a good reality check.

[Pacifist Patriot]

58. Well said.

[PatSeg]

127. Thanks

If I get in the bashing mood, there are plenty of republicans out there still deserving of my scorn. I will never forget what they've done to this country and could do again if we lose our focus.

[Strelnikov_]

68. Hear Hear! n/t

[HughMoran]

97. Unrealistic expectations tempered by mischaracterization & snarkasm

What does one say to someone whose responses are predictable and snarky 24-7?

I agree with you - it would be refreshing if realistic expectations were included in the critiques. Mindless one-note posters seem to forget that President Obama really isn't Superman, no matter what some of his supporters might say :)

[PatSeg]

123. "Snarkasm"!

Love it. After eight years of Bush, I think snarkasm has become a bad habit that's hard to break. Though we don't want to become apathetic, criticism needs to be presented with reason and possibly even solutions.

My support for Obama came slowly and a bit reluctantly at first. I don't buy into hero worship and am very suspicious of people who do. I believe that Obama the man is competent, intelligent, and a natural born leader. I will criticize him, but with great respect for the tremendous job he has taken on.

[ekwhite]

145. I wouldn't call him the perfect choice for this time

I would call him the best choice we had at the time. He is, so far, turning out to be pretty good. He is far too corporatist for my liking, but even his moderate reforms are causing the wingnuts to go ballistic. I reserve the right to criticize him, though.

[ErinBerin84]

41. some (a lot of) people write out reasoned criticisms

and sometimes, even if I don't agree with their criticism, I'll rec the thread because I think they make their point well. Other threads that bring up really petty shit or use ridiculous hyperbole, I am personally surprised by how many "recs" they get and am curious to see by who.

[totodeinhere]

188. Legitimate constructive criticism is fine. I've done it myself. But...

"f*** you Obama" posts are wrong and IMHO should not be tolerated here.

[Top Cat]

46. Thanks for the post

[Hellataz]

51. Good Post, Why is the criticism here so harsh? You'd think the other guy won.

[eridani]

73. We expect more from our guy

And rightly so.

[Hellataz]

204. We do, but this immense expectation should give way to the harsh reality we face

[Divine Discontent]

133. quite a few people who pay attention to politics when it's not popular to (after the elections) are

very upset over President Obama's propping up of the war in Afghanistan, enabling of the banks/investment firms with hundreds of billions, and demands against the well being of the autoworkers, among a myriad of issues that might pertain to what others want fixed in regards to things they care about, are things that are upsetting many. I think most of it is the frustration with Geithner's bailout of everything wall street and handing them check after check while listening to Obama rail against the autoworkers and telling them they need to reduce their middle class pay while rich bank/investment CEOs & VPs are getting billions thrown at them with the excuse that we'll all suffer painfully from a depression if we don't help the financial sector out of the fraud they performed.

God bless the president, things are still a mess. He's only been in a few months, and it's gonna take several more long months to start seeing some real change, but it will come, I just want to see him as hard on the financial sector as he was yesterday on the autoworkers' future income.

[TexasObserver]

52. I agree. We need a forum for Haters.

Somewhere other than here.

[zogtheobvious]

72. Hope this helps!

http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/

;)

[Born_A_Truman]

54. Yes, I think it's time for me to take a break

I admit that I've grown beyond tired of the Obama bashing here. Yes, I know---those who claim they want to "hold his feet to the fire", etc, etc claim they support him. Yep.
So, tearing him down on a pro-Democratic message board is going to do that? I don't.

There are times I come here and wonder where the hell I am. I worked to help get him elected. I donated. I did the Drive for Change in Nevada. I was so damn happy I cried when he got elected. After the last two elections and the past eight years, I was elated that we finally elected a DEMOCRAT to the White House.

It makes me very sad.

[Cha]

56. Thanks bernie..these DU rules should

be pinned. So much hate breeding here left over from the primaries.

[DevonRex]

57. I've begun referring to this place as Democratic* Underground.

*not really for democrats at all

[depakid]

59. Been awhile since we've seen one of these threads

although the irony in this instance a touch more than the usual.

[WeDidIt]

60. YOU'RE WRONG!!!!

People are bashing Obama MORE than they did Bush.

[HughMoran]

99. That's 'cause we were completely worn out from 8 years of Bush bashing

:rofl:

[snowbear]

61. Berni....

.
.

... you rock.

[elizm]

62. Thank you. Tried to make the same point in my post..

..but it got locked. Guess it IS time to leave DU.

[alcibiades_mystery]

67. Made of win

:thumbsup:

[jillan]

70. It would be really nice if we could 'discuss' rather than attack.

[Spazito]

74. I agree...

It is a small group of people who repeatedly post OPs far beyond constructive criticism and many were not supportive of Obama before, during and after the election.

I find myself skipping many threads just based on the header and the poster, I know it is going to be of little value, made up of misinformation, misleading headlines, etc.

It is quite sad.

[peacetalksforall]

75. Thanks for giving me a chance to voice my position. I am one who wants to believe

in Obama and this administration so much. As to his intellect and savvy, I think he is brilliant. I trust Ted and Caroline and the other Kennedy's for the push they gave him. I am thrilled beyond means that an African-American made it into the White House. I want to trust that his first desire is to fight for the little people and bring back something that we were taught that we could have and were entitled to by being born in this country. That thing or those things that we were told were so uniquely precious - like honest voting.

I am one who has been critical of some things. Critical in the form of a sadness and worry, fear and anger.

People I discuss things with were shocked when I wasn't so gun ho about Obama because of his war record and even though things he has accomplished and supported have been honorable - the lack of a strong position against the so-called war and the Patriot Act is extremely worrisome to me. I am unhappy with all Dems who have done nothing about the torture and vote theft, but did plenty about bankruptcy, spying, immunity for the data theft corporation, Mukasey.

I am definitely not one of the types of people you refer to in your OP - I would NEVER EVER rely on anything said on right wing corporate propaganda tv. They would never influence me. I have had over 20 years of watching them in action and now I don't even watch television. The right wing is so darn predictable, I don't have to. I've never heard honesty or a worthwhile idea come from them in way over two decades. I'll turn on the tv again when they change.

I listen more to those who say there is no difference between Dems and Repubs and I don't mean Nader - his position has always been too self serving. I listen to people who cut through some of the pretense in some quite sound logic - people who know more than any of us, but who are not listened to unless the listeners do it to turn and make fun of them and put them down. I deplore my lack of knowledge about the real powers - tri lateral, the deals of the IMF, the agreements with leaders of other countries who have massacred their own policies by hooking up with private money for them.

The core key to trusting Obama unconditionally, which I can't do yet, revolves primarily around authorizing more war under pretenses and corporate rule and a federally approved politician-wall street f-up and heist of our lives. A grand redesign of structure is needed and if it doesn't happen for all the people, we will be living out a most inglorious end.

I cannot tolerate using our kids for corporate war that is all about taking the earth resources for those who are Northern European or have their genealogy stemming from there.

If he can't introduce and convince people that the U.S. does not have to control and fight corporate wars to control the earth, air, space and all species who inhabit it - if he can't convince people that our kids cannot be used to do the dirty work, suffer and pay, if he can't advance peace - and if he does submit to wars and anglo-northern european domination under guises and excuses - than I will have a big problem.

I figure my issues with him are between the two of us. I believe he believes in the little people. My belief just has to be proved. In the meantime I moan in pain at some of the decisions while at the same time believing that he might be a near master in timing strategy. I hope so.

My moaning in pain is what I moan about here - it is raw worry that upping the number of our kids in Afghanistan is not just a redux of 2001-2-3. Or Vietnam. I dread the death that this decision is going to cause us and the people of Afghanistan-Pakistan. I despise the idea that we still talk about terrorists. I moan in pain knowing that it may be proved that the U.S. Government is probably the number 1 illegal drug merchant and that all our nuclear secrets were sold for money that went to Republicans and some Dems. I writhe with pain that Homeland Security is still in place with that killer Chertoff in charge, that we haven't been told that the torture has stopped or that yanking men off the streets of the world and flying them in Lear jets to prison has stopped. I am impatient. It is torturous that all that we suffered from under Bush hasn't been reversed yet from the second day in office. It took eight years to get here and it has been some damning that we want it to stop as soon as possible - that it what we cry out about. Time is the culprit if we trust.

We have to remember that we didn't get certain people who would have guaranteed more of the same. If there others like me we worry-whine, it's mostly at the clock. We still have faith in Pres. Obama.

The big problem is to catch the criminals and stop the crime without ruining the Democratic Party because of the players who are in the same bed as the Republicans.

[ms liberty]

77. K&R...and I agree 100%...n/t

[Undercurrent]

81. Agreed!

Well said.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Laurab]

83. K&R - Thanks! nt

[JJ]

85. Obama is the worst...

except for all the others.

[NoSheep]

86. I think the idiots have been allowed to run this place for too long.

[leftstreet]

87. The only extremely boring thing about DU are the loyalty oath threads n/t

[martymar64]

193. Hear Hear!

It's our own version of Mao's Red Guard out to crush and liquidate all reactionaries and dissidents, REAL OR IMAGINED.
Next thing you know, they'll calling for a purge.

It's ironic because I happen to like Obama and think he's a fundamentally decent man, yet his more zealous "supporters" here are quickly turning into some weird cult that will brook no criticism of him, ever, no matter how constructive or well-intentioned. Case in point, the apoplectic hysterics here over Paul Krugman's criticisms of the stimulus plan.
We NEED people that are critical, not just a bunch of fucking Yes Men.

Projecting god status on a politician is always a dangerous thing.

To paraphrase Gandhi, I like your Christ, it's his followers that frighten me.

[iamthebandfanman]

88. Who We Are :

Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office.

[HughMoran]

101. Doesn't mean you can come here and just skullf*** those who are Dems and proud of it

Some of the so called "progressives" are really quite unsavory characters and push the limits of civility in the name of "dissent".

I'm personally sick of those who would be disruptors "just because they can" get away with it.

[rosesaylavee]

89. Thank you.

[readmoreoften]

90. Obamists don't even tolerate "constructive criticism" of the man. What you really mean is

stop criticizing Barack Obama.

President Obama himself is constantly attacking my (and OUR, meaning majority DU) values.
Bombing Pakistan is an attack on my values.
Keeping CIA black sites open through loopholes while claiming to "close gitmo" (which McCain planned to do as well) is a big-time attack on OUR values.
More troops in Afghanistan? Attack on my/our values.
Teacher merit pay? Attack on my and the majority of DU's values.
A government office on faith-based funding? Attack on my values.
Appointing monsters who pushed Glass-Steagall to run the economy? Attack on my/our ability to survive.
Having a cabinet full of Goldman Sachs operatives? Attack on my/our dignity.

Yes, Obama has done a handful of good things. In some cases, he's just getting credit for other people's hard work that he merely didn't obstruct (women's rights at work, etc.) I'm okay with the stimulus. I'm okay with his labor appointment. But all in all, the minor plusses have been ENGULFED by his perpetuation of Bush's neoliberal economic and war policies. For Christ sakes, he has to do SOMETHING to keep mainstream Democrats hanging on.

I won't even comment on his signing onto the UN resolution against the death penalty for being lesbian and gay. WOW! How big of him! :eyes: Now we're no longer on par with Iran and Saudi Arabia. What a great leap forward. And how reassuring for the conservatives that he made sure signing on to the resolution didn't require any binding policy commitments. How bad would it suck if he actually had to SUPPORT ending executions based on sexual orientation instead of merely stating that the US agrees in principle with the concept of non-execution for homosexuals? I mean really talk about the least you can do for a constituency you claim to support.

So far: Bush gets an F- and Obama gets a D+.

[Tarc]

91. I was an avid Hillary supporter here, and for a time, an active PUMA elsewhere

Even I can see the difference between constructive criticism, and inane, childish bellyaching, i.e. your post. An assessment of a "D+" simply does not mesh with anything approaching a rational assessment.

No politician is going to align with your own particular positions 100% of the time. I'm certainly satisfied with the 75% or so of the things I see eye to eye on with the current president than the 5-10% of the previous one.

So do us a favor. Shut up.

[HughMoran]

104. Bravo!

Can you imagine someone trolling their way onto this thread to pronounce their oh-so-magnificent grade of "D" to a man whose been in office 70 days. I shut them up once and for all - at least from where I sit :evilgrin:

[geek tragedy]

110. +1. nt

[Number23]

120. Oh. SNAP!!!

So do us a favor. Shut up.

:rofl: :rofl:

When you're done with it, can you hand that poster back their face??? :rofl:

[HughMoran]

102. I forgot about you

Thanks for reminding me - I've got buttons to press.

[geek tragedy]

109. This post was useful to me.

I'm making my list, checking it twice . . .

[newtothegame]

157. Wow you are desperate...

I suppose if you're miserable and friendless enough to get your rocks off desperately searching for trolls, you may do so. The rest of us will use the site for discussion.

[pam4water]

141. I agree. What has happened? People don't recognize the difference between legitimate debate and

bashing. Sad. I wish I could give a thread negative numbers like diggit.

[kestrel91316]

93. Thank you. I found myself wondering if it was against the rules,

or just something we have to put up with.

"........Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents are not welcome here......."

Now I have something specific to use if an alert is needed. "This asshole is a troll" doesn't seem to impress the mods.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JanusAscending]

94. My dear friend.................

I so agree with you. It used to be I suffered withdrawal if I had to miss a day on DU. Now I go for days without even checking in, let alone posting. The whole place is becoming a sewer, and I don't feel like wading in anymore!! I feel like I've lost a best friend. There is one other forum I'll still post on. Sad, isn't it??:shrug:

[Raine]

96. I'm sick of the negativism

I'm coming here less and less.

[FloridaJudy]

103. Sometimes you just need a break from GD-P

People get frustrated and angry and lose all sense of civility. When that happens, it's best to avoid the discussion. Chill out in the lounge a bit, or hang out in the cooking group for a while - even though discussions about the proper way to clean cast iron can get heated. I occasionally had to use the option of removing GD-P from the Greatest Page during the primaries. Maybe we need to do that more.

I do keep coming back, even if the "Obama Sucks!" and "Quit Picking on Obama, Troll!" rhetoric is sometimes exhausting. At least I can find discussion about real issues here. Better that than all that focus on the latest celebrity meltdowns and weird reproductive practices that the MSM seems to be obsessed with.

[Skittles]

106. EVERYBODY GOOSESTEP!!!

WE TOO CAN BE LIKE THE FREAK REPUBLIC!!!

[geek tragedy]

112. Comparing a call for civil criticism to Nazism.

A very educational post, and helpful to me.

I'm making a list, checking it twice. . .

[JMDEM]

119. Groupthink is groupthink... sigh...

Look...

Ford pardoned Nixon and shut down an investigation that would have uncovered some slimy worms by the names of Bush, Rumsfield, Cheney, Rove, Abramoff, etc etc etc... And we ended up with Iran/Contra, El Salvadorian Death squads, crack cocaine to our cities (via Arkansas), BCCI, the Savings and Loan Scandal, (including the Neil Fucking Bush Colorado Savings and Loan scandal) and on and on and on... with those sleazy characters behind the mess. But that "whole Bay of Pigs thing" was kept out of sight for our own good.

Clinton dropped Iran/Contra investigations of a whole bunch of sleazy characters by the names of Bush, Rumsfield, Cheney, Rove, Abramoff, etc etc etc... And we ended up with energy price fixing, NAFTA, elimination of the fairness in broadcasting doctrine, monopolization of the news media, and a whole bunch of deregulation regarding the financial sector. And more coke through Mena.

And then Florida, 2000. And then 9/11. And then two fucking oil wars -- one for a pipeline and one for control of the middle east. And then complete scams on Wall Street and the banking sector. And the Bush's buying ranches in Paraguay down near Rev. Moon's ranch. And instead of crack cocaine, massive amounts of heroin coming out of one of those invaded countries.

Now Obama is talking like he has no intentions of investigating a bunch of sleazy characters by the names of Bush, Rumsfield, Cheney, Rove, Abramoff, etc. And Obama seems to have staffed his financial advisors with a bunch of banking industry insiders, not people who can really get us out of the mess we are in. (See the most recent TYT broadcast with Cent Uygar... what's his name...)

Hey, but our guy won, you know! Just like winning the Super Bowl, you know?

What's one to do but shake their head... Groupthink is a bitch...

[scubadude]

147. I call them Dem-Freeps...

They just don't understand that even Obama wants suggestions on how things should be done. I have emails from him asking for my opinions. I bet most of us do.


Scuba

[redqueen]

160. I find your simplistic and thoughtless response far more fitting of that place than the OP.

Perhaps you might consider reading Tarc's response upthread.

[scubadude]

189. “It is more honorable to repair a wrong than to persist in it” Thomas Jefferson

“I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.” Thomas Jefferson

“Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms (of government) those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny” Thomas Jefferson

"Down through the centuries, this trick has been tried by various establishments throughout the world. They force people to get involved in the kind of examination that has only one aim and that is to stamp out dissent." Pete Seeger

"So now is the time, more than ever, for those who truly value all the principles of democracy, especially including dissent, to be the most forceful in speaking up, standing up and speaking out."
Jim Hightower

I find the demand for unanimity of thought rather boring. We are here to discuss, learn, and drive the movement, not to preach to the choir.

Scuba

[redqueen]

190. Nobody is demanding unanimity of thought. It's naive / ignorant to say so at best...

disingenuous at worst.

See Tarc's post upthread.

See the "destroy Obama" posts... the "FUCK OBAMA" posts... the posts agreeing with M$M assholes who are still putting out the same anti-Dem spin they've been putting out for decades... only now DUers post it not to mock it, but to cheer for it.

[LostinVA]

196. Yeah, they are

A huge subthread yesterday calling for anyone criticizing the President to be banned. A mod was in there agreeing with them, and sais how they are trying to get posters like that banned. Mind you, NOT bashing, just anyone not 100% "supporting." It was of course locked, but I do have some of it saved.

[redqueen]

199. Sorry, I just meant not this OP, and not in this thread (that I've seen).

Of course there are unreasonable people on both sides of this.

I think all reasonable people can agree that shit like "FUCK OBAMA" and how people want to destroy the democratic party are over the top... yet it's allowed to stand. *That* is what the OP is referring to.

Same goes for those posting bullshit from the M$M and backing it up like it's not bullshit. It's like the primaries never ended for some people... as evidenced by the "oh no Hillary asked who painted it!" bullshit.

[scubadude]

198. You are wrong about me.

I personally don't participate in any of those threads. It is you who is being naive. Whether you realize it or not you are espousing a slow slip to the "Either you're with us, or you're against us" mentality. I'm not disingenuous in the least. I would say totally honest is more like it. I support some of the changes that are being put in place, dislike others, and hope that justice is brought upon those who brought us to these trying times. That is my right as an American. That is what makes me different than a Freep. I must have my say, as should all in a Democracy, yet I respect the beliefs of others.

I support our President, and I expect him to live up to his promises. I expect him to listen to those around him whose voices have bee stilled so long. We must be heard. We can make a difference, more now than in many years. I call for Liberals and Progressives to unite behind our President. Yet when our interest is not being served, we must let it be known.

Scuba

[redqueen]

200. The OP was specific... he is not talking about serious criticism. (nt)

[JDPriestly]

107. Look, since I don't think Timothy Geithner is a Democrat, I don't

think it is inconsistent for me to criticize him and still be on DU. Besides, Obama is not the only Democrat out there. My congressman, Xavier Becerra is the best in the House, and he voted against the TARP, etc. So, we can have different opinions about Obama's economic policies and still be good Democrats. Obama is not the only Democrat. If he doesn't start really supporting unions and the ordinary American people and stop favoring the banks, I'm going to begin to wonder whether he really is a Democrat.

Also, I would like to prevent him from falling prey to the conservative idea that it is somehow possible to reform health care accessibility and cost by working with the health insurance companies. Some Democrats delude themselves into believing that idea, but it is false, and we here should do, write, say everything we can to show how false that idea really is.

Obama is doing lots of things very well. I support him with regard to those things, but we do Obama no favor by remaining silent when he makes mistakes. I would like to see him serve all 8 years that he can serve. By pointing to his mistakes, I am working to help correct them. Obama still has lots of time to get on the right economic course. I hope he does.

[BlooInBloo]

108. No, no, no. The only patriotic thing you can do is to bitch about Obama 24/7....

Anything else and you're a censoring lockstepper.

TRUE progressives hate Obama. You want to be a TRUE progressive, don't you? DON'T YOU!!!!!

:rofl:

[SlingBlade]

111. YES ! ...... K&R

I knew this SMALL minority of Obama Bashing numskulls would finally provoke a response

Thanks, Great Post.:kick:

And to all of you Obama Bashers.....
Fuck You !

I know what you are doing, I know who you are and the day I buckle under to a bunch
of underground FREEPERS is the day hell freezes over solid. FUCK YOU !
I'm bringing it every time one of you assholes post your bullshit.

PS: FUCK YOU !



edited for clarity :)

[Roxy66]

118. Bravo!!! It's about time someone pointed this out!! Thank you!

[Brucie Kibbutz]

121. "There ought to be limits to freedom".

It's so nice of you to permit constructive criticism. :patriot:

[geek tragedy]

130. He's quoting site rules.

And, boo effing hoo if someone gets their feelings hurt after they trash the President.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

132. hurt feelings?

I'm not the one who's so obsessed with the image of a politician that I have throw a fit every time someone criticizes the person I voted for.

Oh, BTW, he may be quoting site rules but all he's doing is making up his own rules by deciding for everyone else what is "constructive" and what isn't.

To hell with both of you.

[SlingBlade]

138. Funny thing is, I can read the shit you post

On any friggin forum I go to, You want to criticize Obama ?

Do it, Just do it elsewhere

[Brucie Kibbutz]

140. You wouldn't be able to read it

if you put me on ignore.

[SlingBlade]

150. Put you on "Ignore" and allow this small group of

Obama Bashers to go unchallenged ?

I don't think so, Matter of fact I'm keeping a close eye on those that have repeatedly
posted on their favorite subject

The failure of the Obama Administration

No fucking way, No fucking how !

:kick:

[Brucie Kibbutz]

181. no fucking way!

[autorank]

131. Obama's in a very tough position k*r

He's stuck with something unique, much like Lincoln but worse in many ways. The entire system has collapsed. There's no civil war and there won't be. But the collapse is pervasive. He put together a consensus cabinet, which I don't particularly care for but it's not the end of the world if he leashes them and they get things done. He's got a Congress that's not of this world, imho. That's a heavy buden. I think a lot of people insert a subtext into his overall strategy to deal with seeing Tim Geithner's face so much. One variation is he'll negotiate the Afghan situation while promising a big buildup. Hope so because selling another war is going to be next to impossible.

He needs to succeed, period. So I sympathize with your position - frontal assaults don't work with your troops debating the plans instead of marching forward. I'm thinking of Evan Bayh, who uses the Democrat label. I think reactionaries are fair game, Bayh and his ilk being among that group. So while Obama gets the benefit of the doubt (and hopefully accolades later for pushing a social justice agenda), the various dogs don't. They'll never learn to hunt. They'll never say "* Obama" but they'll do much worse, ruin the chances for survival by giving the buried Republican minority a chance to rise again and do us all in for good.

[sandyj999]

134. I totally agree, th place is becoming a downer

I have no problem with constructive criticism or discussion but there is way too much of the other. Name calling is childish and only shows the ignorance of the one doing it. I make it a point to avoid whiners and complainers in real life and I sure don't intend to come here to hear it.

I believe that due to the financial problems and the miserable past eight years this country is in a depression and I don't mean a financial one. I believe the previous administration did more to us mentally than we realize.

[vaberella]

135. I've come to terms with this BM...not much can be done. n/t

[deacon]

137. Obama is a different person. Bush antagonized the crap out of people daily and welcomed the

negative reactions because bush/rove loved to drive division.

We DO NOT have that with Obama. He deserves a chance.

The MSM has taken this crisis and created chaos. The GOP fuels things with their dire need for Obama to fail.

Time to take stock in what's happened and the damage bush did by driving the deep divisions.

[ekwhite]

142. I have to disagree

I am a life-long Democrat - my first vote was for George McGovern - but I feel it is important for us on the left to criticize Obama, and to continue to try to push him to the left. I reserve the right to criticize any sitting President, whether on the right or the left. I personally agree with Paul Krugman that Obama's bailout plan is too timid and too little.

I personally think that Obama is very intelligent, pretty much a straight shooter, and a vast improvement over the previous POTUS, but he does have a tendency to be too centrist, in a time when we need stronger action. That is why it is important that we need to push from the left, to give ourselves a better chance of seeing the progressive policies this country needs implemented.

If there are people who are going over the top in their criticism of Obama, that is what the report button is for. Talking about people 'bashing Obama' is not going to generate substantive discussion - just a flame thread. I know that was not your intention. Let's talk about ways to constructively criticize President Obama when needed, and ways to support him when he needs it also.

[berni_mccoy]

143. This thread has not become a flame war as you say it would. The fact is people ARE bashing here

And they are doing it in a way that violates the rules.

[ekwhite]

148. With all due respect

It appears to be more of an exercise in groupthink than a flame ware. Lately, I have only been skimming the front page, so maybe I am missing some of the threads you are talking about, but your OP concerned me, because I believe we need to hold any President accountable, no matter whether he is a Democrat or Republican.

Just to clarify where I stand - I think that Obama is doing a good job overall, especially with the way he had to hit the ground running. I love his appointment of Hilda Solis as Secretary of Labor, and his choice of a consumer advocate to head the FDA. I don't like his choice of Timothy Geithner as Secretary of the Treasury, or Geithner's plan to bail out the banks. The administration, in general, seems to be too deferential to the Wall Street types that got us into this mess to begin with. I also have serious reservations about too much involvement in Afghanistan. What is our exit strategy for Afghanistan. How will we know we have 'won'? Criticizing his policies in these areas is legitimate debate. The F* Obama threads, on the other hand, should be locked and the original posters banned.

[berni_mccoy]

156. Calling it groupthink is not "with all due respect"

[redqueen]

159. It's dissmissive and ignorant.

But it suits those who have some kind of axe to grind, obviously.

As Tarc said upthread, it's easy to see the difference. Some seem to have some reason to pretend it's not there.

[onehandle]

149. One problem is the lack of Democrats at Democratic Underground.

One problem.

[SlingBlade]

151. Aint that the friggin truth

[LynneSin]

152. This is the first time DU existed under total Democratic Leadership across the board in DC

For 8 years we knew who the enemy was - it was George W. Bush and his regime including all republicans and the mouthpieces that support them.

We had a small taste of what was to come when we took control of Congress (barely) in 2006. But this is the first time the people running the show are of our own party. I think we have no clue how to act and sometimes I wonder who the enemy is because sometimes I feel like WE are our own enemy.

No one said Barack was going to agree with us 100% anyone who voted for him thinking that was the case was, well, a fool. And no one expected the man to solve all he worlds ills in less than 100 days. I think a couple of times I posted that this country was going to get 'worse before it got better'. Obama was going to have to do alot of tough love in order to turn this country around.

I see no problem with criticizing those of our own party as long as you respect the idea that the democratic party is made up of all sorts of people, not just hard core progressives that post at online democratic webforums.

I watched 'Religilious' last night and they had an interview of Senator Mark Pryor done by Bill Maher. Pryor is a democrat from Arkansas and all I could think is "THIS CRAZY NUTJOB IS A DEMOCRAT????" but it dawned on me - Pryor does not represent me, he represents people from Arkansas. I need to worry about my own crazy nutjobs like Tom Carper, who tends to be a bit more moderate than I like.

I still believe in the big tent and I want a democrat party where everyone has a voice - not just hard core progressives that post at online democratic webforums (although we deserve our voice too).

[redqueen]

158. What sickens me is the idiots falling for M$M talking points.

The ones who post it and the idiots who lap it up, only to be shown later how they were played (though they dont' seem to care much... oddly).

You'd think people would have learned by now...

Another sickening thing is crap like we see upthread... a D+ after 2 months? Yeah, that's reasonable. In freeperland.

[jobycom]

163. Some good points there, Rookie. But DU has always been like this. The big difference

is that now we actually have someone in charge, and it's difficult for some to express disagreement with an idea without attacking the person.

I joined DU first back in 2001, shortly after the Selection, and promptly abandoned it because there were more attacks on Clinton and Gore than discussion of Democratic ideals. I rejoined in 2002 after a friend IRL coaxed me back in. Most of my early posts were attacks on Greens and Naderites who were attacking Gore and the Clinton legacy. After about a month of intense fighting, I made a long, angry post explaining why I would no longer attack Greens or Naderites or engage in arguments against people I agreed with on 90% of the issues over the 10% I don't agree with them on. Got a lot of "hear, hear"s and the like, and the Infamous and Wonderful WillPitt even pulled my post out of its thread and made it a thread on its own, complete with compliments (Thanks Will).

I haven't always stuck to that (who has?) but I've tried to let it guide me. Others have different values, and some people have a lot of anger and, let's face it, not as much eloquence as some, and their anger comes out as attacks on our own, because that's how they express themselves. Some people personalize because they are more concrete thinkers, less abstract thinkers. It's just the way things are.

I love everyone here, is all I'm saying. Yeah, I lose my temper with the best of them, but everyone here (with a few exceptions) are here because they believe what I believe and want to make the same difference I want to make, even if they disagree on how to make those changes. I can't hate them for that. I might put them on ignore, but I don't hate them. Much.

This has been going on a long time, IOW. Obama is the latest Clinton who is the latest other Clinton who is the latest Gore who is the latest... whomever. No matter who your hero is, someone here will attack them. That's part of the DU world. As long as they seem sincere, I'm their friend.

[BrklynLiberal]

168. Well said seems so inadequate.

[jobycom]

170. Thanks. I'm just happy when people don't hit me. nt

[BrklynLiberal]

172. LOL

:fistbump:

[Redbear]

173. Nice post.

We can't forget that we agree 90% of the time.

[jobycom]

174. Oh my gosh!

There's a name I remember but don't see very much! :hi:

[berni_mccoy]

176. Obama is not a hero as much as someone who deserves the benefit of the doubt

And most "critics" here do not give him the minimum.

And, I don't have as many posts or have been here as long as you, but I'm hardly a "Rookie"! :-)

[jobycom]

177. He's a hero for some. That was a general "you," not a you "you."

Why does that remind me of a MASH episode...

I know you're not a rookie, and I enjoyed your post (many of them, actually), and when I reread mine, I realized I didn't say that. So, great post! My comments were in addition to it, not really in disagreement with it.

I don't really like the way people have to personalize their attacks, and there are a lot of people too willing to believe the MSM story without digging deeper (that killed Hillary Clinton's campaign, and is beating up Obama right now). But I either ignore them or see that as a chance to show them where the MSM is twisting them. At least on my better days I do.

Just saying, this has always been a rough and tumble sort of place, but it's still good.

[berni_mccoy]

178. Thanks, I think I will focus on the last part you mention

Showing people how the MSM will twist their perceptions and ignite faux controversy.

It's been crazy lately.

[HughMoran]

185. That's a great perspective

...and when I'm at my base emotional state, I feel much the same way as you've described. It takes all types and we must try to understand the other persons perspective. That's all well and good until the next attention whore posts an inflammatory subject line (Obama the FlimFlam Man, for instance) and proceeds to post a screed filled with every type of invective known to man - the post is only designed to shiv those who do not agree with the OP's position. These people get rightly ripped and likely put onto ignore. It's so difficult to take a step back and think about that poster as a real person when that person has clearly posted using revenge and a motivation.

[TomClash]

166. K & R - See here too - in sarcastic form

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5351594

[DutchLiberal]

169. Like Bill Maher said: "We need to be loyal to ideals, not people."

Because, he said, "we did that with Bush", and look where that blind loyalty has led to.

[Baikonour]

182. Don't bring logic and forward-thinking into this. eom

[DutchLiberal]

197. I'm sorry!

:rofl:

[tigereye]

171. no, they don't bash Obama as much as Bush.

I've been here 6 years, and that is simply not true. People tend to get very upset about events as they occur due to their particular principles and expectations, and they vent in a variety of ways. It's the way it has always been here.

[stevenleser]

175. Dammit, I cannot recommend because this is over 24 hours old

but I agree 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Baikonour]

180. Find me one example of a highly inflammatory or divisive attack against Obama. Just one.

'Cause criticizing him and Geitner for their shoddy plan ain't it.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. No one here, from what I've read with my own two eyes, has said anything outrageous that echoes the the tone of our "political opponents." And if there has been, then it's more than likely a Freeper troll. Trolling from freepers is not a new phenomenon.

And to say that people are attacking Obama here as a much as they did Bush is patently untrue and preposterous.

[berni_mccoy]

184. You really should do your research before you post you know

Just one example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8302987

That one in particular quotes Fox News as fact and states "FUCK OBAMA".

But there are many others recently as noted by the hundreds of positive responses to this thread.

[geek tragedy]

192. How about this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8302987

[Baikonour]

203. Funny that both of you linked to the same thread.

So that's one example out of the hundreds of threads that are posted daily. One thread from an obviously upset person over LGBT issues and the military.

Any others of this so-called attack on this site from freepers, et al?

I think some of you need to relax a bit.

[zulchzulu]

183. I'm all for constructive criticism, but Utopian PurityBots with Naderian tendencies bore me

If you want to bitch about Obama, provide a SOLUTION. A REAL solution... not a bumper sticker idea.

That said, we do have to be vigilant with Obama or anyone else if need be.

[redqueen]

191. Well said. I'm all for criticism... but the mindlessness referred to in the OP is not criticism.

It's echoing of M$M talking points and, as you put it, bumper sticker ideas... it's beyond tiring and I don't know why so many people seem to want to pretend that OPs like this one are directed at anything but those kinds of posts.

[windbreeze]

186. I couldn't agree more..

I go to other sites, I half expect some of this criticism..I come here...I'd just as soon not see it to the depth that it goes..I can't believe we are willing to do this to ourselves...don't we have enough opponents out there already?? wb

[K Gardner]

195. Wish I could be the 100th Rec, but I've already recommended this :-)

[cleveramerican]

201. I assume I'm among friends here....

and I feel free to say all kinds of things I'd never say in republican circles
Too many don't seem to get that.