There was no Hillary "gaffe" in Mexico City. She was pointing to a framed image of the cloak!

[jefferson_dem]

There ya go...

Clinton aide: No gaffe in Mexico City

Clinton aide Mary Ellen Glenn emails that the Secretary of State's question about a relic in a Mexican church -- portrayed in the Mexican press and here as a gaffe -- was actually a misunderstanding.

Clinton asked, the monsignor showing her around later reportedly told the Mexican press, who had painted the Virgin of Guadalupe on a famous cloak. "God," the priest replied.

But Glynn points out that Clinton and the priest were looking at a framed image of the cloak on the first floor of the Basilica, not at the original.

"Secretary Clinton remarked on a replica of the Guadalupe image, not the actual image," she emailed.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0309/Clinton_aide_No_gaffe_in_Mexico_City.html?showall

[xultar]

1. ROFL.

[jefferson_dem]

2. We'll eagerly await a round of corrections from the asshat media whores who spread this lie.

n/t

[xultar]

4. I won't hold my breath.

[DURHAM D]

5. What about the asshat DUers who bought/relished it -

bad news source and all.

[xultar]

11. DING DING DING!

[QC]

39. BINGO! n/t

[emilyg]

43. Yep.

[ruggerson]

58. we have a winnah!

[Skip Intro]

64. Really. nt

[ronnykmarshall]

99. You win BOTH showcases!!!

[DevonRex]

9. We know that'll never happen. nt

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

24. Pssst!

You can't hide on the internets!

[jesus_of_suburbia]

56. I'm not trying to hide anything,

[biopowertoday]

38. I will not call

du members those words but many were in this perpetuating the so-called goof.

glad it is cleared up. thanks for the post.

[TwilightGardener]

3. I don't even know why this was an issue--except for the RW looking to make

an issue out of it.

[xultar]

6. It got traction here @ DU too. But I guess those are the invaders.

[TwilightGardener]

12. If it WAS a gaffe at all, it was minor. Just needs to have her staff brief her a little better.

[DURHAM D]

15. Did you read the OP - it was not a gaffe.

Repeat - no gaffe.

[TwilightGardener]

17. OK. Just saying too much was made of it.

[biopowertoday]

67. good one!!

[El Supremo]

7. So then why did the priest answer "God"?

Sorry, this is spin.

But she was right. Which underling of Juan de Zumárraga did actually paint it?

[xultar]

10. Did you watch the video? Is that the room where the relic resides?

[jberryhill]

48. Was there three weeks ago

The copy is kept near the gift shop, behind the area where the relic is.

The copy is also highly revered.

Take a look at this relic:



No, not that relic.... the image shown here is the copy, and it is the thing that Hillary is shown viewing.

The original has a different frame.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

8. The CNS was wrong? How can this be!?

[ClarkUSA]

13. Seems like face-saving spin to me... why would the priest have replied "God"?

[DURHAM D]

16. Because he is a man of God...? n/t

[jefferson_dem]

18. A bit of "divine humor" perhaps?

n/t

[ProSense]

21. The story sounds really fishy

And Thrush is a complete Hillary tool.

[Beacool]

42. Maybe it sounds fishy to YOU since you started a thread on it.

:shrug:

[SaveOurDemocracy]

25. Color us 'shocked' that you cling to anything that...

shows the Clinton's in a bad light.

[ClarkUSA]

27. I'm not the only one who's skeptical. Why are you attacking me and not addressing my question?

I believe you owe me an apology: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8309072&mesg_id=8309280

Not that I'm holding my breath...

[ronnykmarshall]

98. Stunning !!!!

[Occam Bandage]

28. If he assumed she meant "the original" and not "the reproduction we're looking at."

[ClarkUSA]

35. Why do no news reports mention this Clintonian version? The Mexican press was there...

so they would know what happened, right? This was a primo photo-op so I find it odd that the entire panoply of Mexican press
could have gotten the story wrong.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8309072&mesg_id=8309280

[Occam Bandage]

36. Because every single story was based off that one, single CNA report?

It's hardly shocking that a single-sourced story would be inaccurate in a detail.

[ClarkUSA]

40. It's interesting to note that nobody in Mexico is denying the CNA report, though.

[jberryhill]

52. Like they have some duty to do so?

[ClarkUSA]

78. I would think that a Diocese official would deny the CNA story if it weren't true...

... rather than let a lie stand that implies America's top diplomat is an ignorant doofus.

[jberryhill]

80. And this would be covered by whom?

He's going to call a press conference to dispute a throwaway line in a small circulation rag that he's probably never seen?

And this is going to be covered by who?

Why?

Get real. Just because something is a "big controversy" in blogland, doesn't mean it is a blip on the radar to a diocese in a city of 18 million people who have their own priorities.

[ClarkUSA]

81. The Catholic Church knows how to get news out, especially when it involves America's top diplomat.

I'm surprised Clintonians haven't demanded a retraction from CNA, too.

[Marie26]

83. Didn't the SOS respond w/the accurate version of events?

Why is that not enough?

[ClarkUSA]

84. Because the Clintonian aide's story to Politico doesn't add up. See replies #13 and #59.

[Marie26]

87. Yeah, get right on that. Use those investigative journalist skills!

It's totally not a nitpicking waste of time motivated by a grudge against the SOS.

[ClarkUSA]

93. I'm surprised the Clinton machine hasn't demanded a retraction from CNA if the story is false.

I am sure the CNA would have cooperated with America's top diplomat if they explained it to the editors. Instead,
a Clinton aide ran to Politico with this fishy story. Hmm....

For those who believe anything the SoS says, I can only say if past is truly prologue, I certainly wouldn't, given the
fairytale existence of sniper fire hiding back there. Forgive me for being skeptical when things don't add up now,
either.

[karynnj]

95. Here is a Mexican report - in Spanish

(which I can't read ) but it looks like it happened.

"Ataviada con un traje sastre rojo encendido, y custodiada por un grupo de guardias del Servicio Secreto, Hillary Clinton recorrió el ala norte de la Basílica , que es la que lleva directamente hasta el atrio principal, en donde cuelga el ayate de San Juan Diego.

Monseñor Monroy le explicó el acontecimiento y códice guadalupano: el significado del manto; la consistencia; las rosas; las estrellas; las manos entrelazadas de la Virgen , cada detalle del ayate.

“Cuando le dije que era una imagen que se había quedado plasmada en el ayate de Juan Diego, dijo: ‘¿Pero quién pinto el cuadro, las rosas?’. El Padre Dios, le respondí."

Eso le impresionó mucho.


http://www.elmanana.com.mx/notas.asp?id=112023

From the babelfish translation, it appears they were looking at the actual relic, not the copy when the conversation took place. BUT, as I said I don't read Spanish and the translations from Babelfish are not always good - I assume there is someone who speaks Spanish here.

[Marie26]

82. Uh, can you read Spanish?

If not, how do you know what the Mexican press was saying? You're linking to a US blog that refers to the English CNA article. I've actually visited the Basilica & can say that your photo looks like a reproduction. The original is kept on a high altar while thousands of people pass by on a moving conveyor belt. The photographed picture is in a different frame, mounted like a normal painting. Your photo backs up the story that Clinton was actually referring to the reproduction.

[ClarkUSA]

85. What photo are you referring to? What does a photo have to do with anything?

Just because there's a photo doesn't prove or disprove the CNA story. I know the Clintonian machine well enough to know that if they
felt the story was indeed untrue, they would demand a retraction from CNA, with all the power of the State Department of the United
States behind them. Why haven't they? Why go to Politico, which normally is cast as a rightwing rag here at DU (except when it says
nice things about the politician of folks' choice, of course)?

[Marie26]

86. Sigh

OK, I'll say this slowly - I'm referring to the photo you yourself linked to. That photo clearly shows SOS Clinton & the Monsignor standing in front of a *reproduction* of the Virgin of Guadalupe tilda.

ETA: And why are you totally editing your post after I replied?

[ClarkUSA]

89. A photo does not prove or disprove the CNA story. It could've been taken anytime during a photo-op

The Church lowered the original so Hillary could peer at it:

Msgr. Monroy took Mrs. Clinton to the famous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, which had been previously lowered from its usual altar for the occasion.

Again, why not demand a retraction from the CNA instead of running to the Politico (normally denounced as a rightwing
rag unless it says something nice about the politician of folks' choice)? Also the Clintonian aide's story doesn't add up,
as I pointed out before (see reply #84).

[Marie26]

90. Give it up. nt

[ClarkUSA]

91. Gee, I'll cherish your wisdom forever.

Really.

[Marie26]

102. LOL, thanks!

Sometimes it's the little compliments that brighten one's day. :)

[Beacool]

92. Marie, you're wasting your time.

The original was not lowered. She was shown a replica. The original is only lowered on rare occasions, such as a visit from the Pope.

Some people only want to see the worse in either Clinton, so it's not worth continuing to argue with them. It's like slamming your head against a wall.

:eyes:

[karynnj]

114. Actually, the CNA article DOES say it was lowered

and you are correct that that only happens on rare occasions, which would show immense respect for HRC. There is nothing in the Politico article or elsewhere that comments on whether the original was lowered. This Mexican article seems to refer specifically to the original.

"Ataviada con un traje sastre rojo encendido, y custodiada por un grupo de guardias del Servicio Secreto, Hillary Clinton recorrió el ala norte de la Basílica , que es la que lleva directamente hasta el atrio principal, en donde cuelga el ayate de San Juan Diego.

Monseñor Monroy le explicó el acontecimiento y códice guadalupano: el significado del manto; la consistencia; las rosas; las estrellas; las manos entrelazadas de la Virgen , cada detalle del ayate.

“Cuando le dije que era una imagen que se había quedado plasmada en el ayate de Juan Diego, dijo: ‘¿Pero quién pinto el cuadro, las rosas?’. El Padre Dios, le respondí."

Eso le impresionó mucho."


http://www.elmanana.com.mx/notas.asp?id=112023

The fact is that EVEN as CNA wrote it the WORST interpretation is that, on something not related to foreign policy, she was poorly prepared by her staff. It doesn't reflect on her intelligence, character, or personality - there was nothing illegal, immoral, or unethical here. I lean towards believing she is trying to spin this.

[ronnykmarshall]

100. Are you kidding?

Anything that has one SHREAD of Clinton bashing La Clark USA will run over a pack of boy scouts walking blind nuns across the street to post the shit.

[rvablue]

104. LOL! Couldn't have said it better. Perfect! n/t

[ClarkUSA]

110. Why are you attacking me instead of responding to my civil dialogue?

Skepticism based on reason is not "bashing". President Obama is not the only politician whose actions can be examined and critiqued
at DU GDP 24/7, you know.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

113. Physician, heal thyself!

:eyes:


edit to add:

Very interesting how you edited out the part about some people reliving the primaries. Either you were talking to yourself in a mirror, or you realized it illustrated what a hypocrite you are.


or .... maybe ... you healed thyself. :rofl:

[ClarkUSA]

116. "thyself"? Wow, what century were you born in?

[SaveOurDemocracy]

117. doh ... how uneducated are you?

[ClarkUSA]

118. Educated enough to tweak you and reveal what a Shakespeare snob you are.

:rofl:

[SaveOurDemocracy]

135. Shakespeare snob? Ya think?? NOT!

Educate yourself darlin':


http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/281850.html

[ClarkUSA]

137. Psst... My brothers are both physicians. I was referring to your very arch sense of social snobbery.

[ronnykmarshall]

123. Good catch.

That's his other "defense" he uses all the time. Poor, poor pitiful me, always getting personal attacks and reliving the primary. Please that one still has the primary shoved so far up his ass it can floss his teeth.

[ronnykmarshall]

122. Playing the victim as always.

That's your only responce when people call you out on your shit.

[ClarkUSA]

124. LOL! Y'all are always trying to make Hillary a victim... as if she alone is above public scrutiny.

[ronnykmarshall]

125. Waa! Waaa! Waaa!

Poor thing.

Maybe we should fix you a sugar tit?

[SaveOurDemocracy]

134. Hillary a victim? Is that like JUMBO shrimp?

... Military intelligence?

You are so well known for your Clinton hatred it has actually begun to define you.

[ClarkUSA]

136. The pitchfork mob attack here symbolizes the inability for some to tolerate dissent re: Hillary

Many on this thread have expressed skepticism. We are not hating or bashing. It's called disagreement and discussion.
Y'all should try it sometime.

[ronnykmarshall]

138. Some people don't make it their mission in life.

As you do, hon.

If there is a Clinton thread, you can bet dollars to donuts your ass will be planted right in the middle of it throwing a shit fit.

And yes my pet, I will always call you out on your shit. You take that to the fucking bank.

[ClarkUSA]

139. lol! Links, quotes, proof?

You made the accusation, now prove it.

Where are the links to every Clinton thread since, say, the beginning of the year?

Let's see if I am in every one of them "throwing a shit fit," shall we? Hmm?

[ronnykmarshall]

141. There's a river in Egypt dear.

Dedicated to you.

[ClarkUSA]

146. You can't back up any of your accusations with proof, can you? I didn't think so.

[Beacool]

140. You tell him, Ronny!!!

LOL!!!

:yourock:

[ronnykmarshall]

142. I can read that one with one hand ...

and make dinner with the other. Soooooo easy!

[SaveOurDemocracy]

112. LOLLLL ... got that right!

:hug:

[Beacool]

119. But, but...............

He's the one always telling me to "get over the primaries."

:eyes:



:rofl:

[ronnykmarshall]

126. and then plays the victim card.

It's like sunrise and sunset with that one.

Must be hard to walk with that Clinton stick shoved so far up his ass.

And Clarkie honey, feel free to play victim on this one as well. You do that SO well. Well other than bitch about the Clinton's all the time.

[biopowertoday]

127. BINGO.

[ruggerson]

145. The biggest joke on DU

[rucky]

31. Eric Clapton?

[Starry Messenger]

14. That article in CNA makes me totally suspicious.

I could find no attribution to an author on the "piece" And now it has gone viral throughout all the righty-blogs. I smell total bullshit. :thumbsdown: Several people here didn't even question the veracity of the article. That's just sad.

[El Supremo]

19. deleted by poster

[burning rain]

20. In any case, it was useful to reveal the frothing irrationality of Hillary-haters.

They certainly showed themselves in all their "glory."

[ProSense]

22. This is a good attempt to clarify, and may even be true.

Still, the larger point remains that if this was about Obama, the media would have run with it uncorroborated.

Remember in the DVD incident, there was no reaction from Gordon Brown.

[El Supremo]

26. Sorry folks. That was the original.

Taking some time out from the war against the Mexican drug wars, the visiting secretary of state made a point in Mexico City of visiting the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe to deliver a bouquet of white flowers on behalf of the American people.

"Catholics believe that almost 500 years ago the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was miraculously imprinted on the cloak of St. Juan Diego, who became the Catholic church's first saint indigenous to the Americas in 2002,'' Malcolm notes in Top of the Ticket. "The basilica's rector, Msgr. Diego Monroy, had had the image lowered from its altar for a closer look by the visiting dignitary,'' who is a Methodist.

"Who painted it?" Clinton asked.

"God," the rector replied.

Clinton lighted a candle during her 30-minute visit and, on her way out told a crowd of Mexicans, "You have a marvelous virgin."

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2009/03/hillary_clinton_praises_marvel.html

I'm neither a Roman Catholic nor a Hillary basher, but this was a hugely stupid question.

[Traveling_Home]

29. Spoilsport hmmmmmmph nt

[Occam Bandage]

30. A photograph of her near the original does not disprove the correction.

The correction doesn't claim she was never near the original, only that she asked that question in front of a reproduction and not the original.

[ProSense]

32. You're right, but where was the reproduction? And was this response a joke

"God," the priest replied."

I think someone is attempting a very lame damage control.

[Occam Bandage]

34. On the first floor of the basilica, as the article said.

It's possible the priest misunderstood her, and thought she was talking about the original and not the replica. It's possible the priest said nothing of the sort. It's possible it was a joke, with the joke being "I know you're talking about this reproduction, but the famous thing here is that God painted this image, so I'll pretend we're talking about the original image, hahaha."

[jberryhill]

46. The reproduction is right there where they are standing.

I was there a couple of weeks ago.

This is the COPY:



It's on the first floor, below and behind the altar, next to the gift shop.

Yes, they keep a copy near the real one.

Note the different frame from the original:



Do you see the smaller non-tooled goldtone inner frame?

Not present on the copy.

[Beacool]

50. Not gold tone, solid gold.

The original has a solid gold inner frame and a silver outer frame.

Nothing but the best for the Guadalupana.

;)

[jberryhill]

51. Well, I don't assume

I have pictures of both the original and the copy in my cell phone.

After you walk out of the back, there is a platform where they have a priest with a bucket of water, a toilet bowl cleaner, and one heck of an arm, just blessing the bejeebers out of any and everyone there.

I got my cellphone blessed, and all of my calls have been good news ever since! Heh.

[Beacool]

57. We can use all the blessings we can in these difficult times.

Nothing wrong with a blessing.........

;-)

[guruoo]

66. IMO, instead, her staff should have allowed her credit for striking a blow against

intellectual dishonesty.

[jberryhill]

49. That is a photograph of her near the copy

The copy is also highly revered, but in the room with the distinctive wood panels:



To the left of it is the gift shop. Directly across from it, behind Lieberman, is the office where you can buy masses.

[Starry Messenger]

33. The "original" was based on an anonymous report.

Sounds pretty fishy to me. This link is the only original link for the story:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15511

There is no author in the byline.

[jberryhill]

44. THAT - IN YOUR POST - IS NOT THE ORIGINAL

Wrong frame. But the RIGHT frame for a reproduction that is highly revered.

I was in Mexico City three weeks ago and actually visited the Basilica.

Behind the altar area where the icon is mounted, there is a sort of trench-like area with moving sidewalks, upon which you can stand and pass by and under the icon.

They could have lowered it there, but it wouldn't look the way it does in your picture.


There is a hallway that leads from that trench to an office and gift shop area where there is mounted a large REPRODUCTION painting of the icon. It's that are where there is the wooden background you see of the picture of Hillary in your post.

I stood watching that reproduction for a while because, since the original is mounted high up in the area with the moving sidewalks, a lot of worshippers come with their babies and there is a ritual that they go through - touching the cross in the icon's collar, and then making a cross on the forehead and lips of their babies. I'm not Catholic, or particularly religious, but I do find other people's expressions of faith moving, particularly in relation to sacred objects (I've been to Turin as well, and the devotion of the folks there is also impressive).

Anyhow, that spot in the picture above is where the reproduction is, and has the same frame as the reproduction - which is NOT the frame of the original (and of which they would not allow a flash picture anyway).

THIS - the one in your post - is the COPY:



You think they lowered it for the divorced guy and his Jewish sidekick?

[El Supremo]

53. OK. You conviced me.

The frame is very similar but lacks the four raised designs on the sides.

And I know that they don't allow flash bulbs or bright lights on the original. That did surprise me.

So why do all the news reports have it wrong? Catholic propaganda?

And why weren't McCain and Lieberman stuck dead by a bolt of lightening? :-)

[jberryhill]

54. Looking for a story

I have something of a relic hobby, and ambiguous commentary abounds.

In Turin, I stopped by the Museo de la Sindone - the Shroud Museum - about a block and a half from the basilica where the Turin Shroud is kept. The Museum is under the older chapel where the Savoy's used to keep the Shroud, and a large replica hangs over the altar there.

Apparently used to dealing with confused foreign tourists, the staff on the way in asked me which language audio guide I wanted, and when I said "English" they gave me the audio guide, pointed me to the start of the tour and said, "It's not real."

I was kind of dumbfounded for a moment they'd say that - even knowing that, yes, there is a reproduction hanging in that chapel, I still thought, momentarily, that by "it" they were referring to THE Shroud, and not the reproduction. Taken aback, I said, "It's not?", and they realized the ambiguity, pointed to the reproduction and said "THAT one is not the real one. The other one (pointing in the direction of the basilica) is real."

[JohnnyLib2]

37. Love it!

[Beacool]

41. Thank you and THANK YOU!!!

I love how the RW blogs and those on the left too went batty over this non issue.

Where are all those who mocked her????

Any mea culpas????

Three Hail Marys and a Lord's Prayer for some of you.

:spank:

Thanks for the clarification.

:hi:

[karynnj]

76. I did not mock her, just thought it mystifying that she could have visited before

and completely missed the significance to the people there and thought her staff needed to prepare her better. I put in words like "if", but I really think this explanation is completely laughable because no one asks who painted things that are known to be replicas - no matter how good they are. This is damage control for something that needs NO damage control.

[Bill McBlueState]

45. well, their god probably did that one, too

It's not like there's any objective way to tell.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. The Virgin of Guadalupe questions this account.

According to the Virgin of Guadalupe, she stopped to read Hillary Clinton a poem and there was no cloak at all.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[karynnj]

59. This sounds fishy to me -because if she knew it was a copy, who asks who the artist is

Think about it. Do you ask who made the museum gift store copy of any work of art? There is a huge gulf between a person with the technical expertise to copy a work of art and the original artist. In most cases, the answer to who made the replica would be "I don't know."

(editing to say that I read the comments after posting this and 2 posters used the examples of Michaelangelo's David and the Mona Lisa - there are reproductions of each. No one would ask who made them - the question would always be on the original. This is not credible and the question is why her staff doesn't just take responsibility. Not taking responsibility for mistakes - if it becomes a pattern, will hurt her - and through her Obama. This was not a life and death error - and a gracious admission would have been refreshing.

Between that and the Mgr's answer, I really think that she was speaking of the original and remembered it was famous, but not what the story was. This spin simply confirms it happened - something I was not sure of given that the only source was the Catholic news agency.

[ClarkUSA]

77. Exactly. The Clintonian storyline just doesn't add up on many levels.

[polmaven]

107. I don't find that unusual at all...

"who painted a copy of the original?"

Why would that not be a question a curious person might ask?

As far as the originals of David and the Mona Lisa, the originals of both are PAINTINGS! The original of this is NOT! So why would "no one" ask who did the PAINTING? I would certainly want to know that.

[karynnj]

115. David is not a painting

It is a sculpture. http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/micheldavid/david.html There are many sketches and photographs of it - but the artist is the man who sculpted it.

[polmaven]

121. Painting or sculpture,

you are right that the artist is the man who sculpted it.....I don't get your point, then, as to why it would be unusual for someone to ask who painted the replica of the Virgin?

It is obvious that she was, at some point, standing and looking at the painting. The frames are different between the original and the copy. So why would she not ask who did the copy? :shrug:

[karynnj]

130. Believe what you want

I think it unlikely - though not impossible especially as the Mexican article speaks of it as having been said when seeing the original.

[polmaven]

143. Of course you do...

It is typical of many here to always believe the worst of Secretary Clinton. It is way past the time to get over the Primaries.

[karynnj]

144. Get over the primaries?

The HRC people keep saying that and it makes NO sense. I didn't want HRC to win .. and she didn't. I have and had nothing "to get over". My opinion of HRC is mixed - and that was the case 4 or 5 years ago - long before the primaries. No one else is treated with the deference you seem to thing HRC is entitled to.

That does not mean that I have to think that she - or Obama, for that matter, walk on water. Here the WORST thing this could possibly say is:

1) On a busy trip, there was an UNSCHEDULED stop that HRC did not correctly remember the background of.

or

2) A politician is spinning rather than admitting something SHE finds embarrassing.

Neither is very damning and if the shoe fits, the shoe fits.

[backscatter712]

60. HA!!! I didn't think the "Catholic News Agency" held much credibility. I was right!!!

:rofl:

[ClarkUSA]

79. Yes, Clinton aides have so much credibility that we should believe anything they say to Politico.

[dionysus]

61. i was never a big hillary fan, despite voting her in twice... but who gives a fuck about these

non-stories?

:shrug:

[firedupdem]

62. Same as that teleprompter crap that was brought here this past

weekend. Pointless

[dionysus]

63. even if she did gaffe, which we don't know, it's foolish. Obama once said something like

"56 states" or whatever, when it was clear he meant primaries. this type of shit is ridiculous...

[redqueen]

88. Yes, utterly ridiculous...

helps with filling up the ignore list though.

[ronnykmarshall]

101. See above ....

[dionysus]

106. i know there's assholes who are going to continue flaming her ronny, but i think its ridiculous.

[guruoo]

65. ROTFL!!

You tell em' Hillary! :headbang:

[girl_interrupted]

68. LMAO!

Glad she straightened them out!

[guruoo]

70. Unfortunately, the institutionalized superstition will always live to fight another day

[Lord Helmet]

69. face saving spin and who cares anyway?

I can't believe this was an issue to begin with.

[Political Heretic]

71. I think what angers me most is that this is even a story at DU or in the Media

EFCA is dying, we're going to keep blowing children the fuck up in Afghanistan but hey.... Hillary might have made a "gaffe" in Mexico City - oh noes!

[blogslut]

72. So, she was looking at this image?

[Norrin Radd]

73. So, did God do any paintings in Cubism, or Abstract Expressionism?

Pop Art? Dada? Rococo? Lascaux cave paintings? Interesting that he doesn't have his own style, but chose a prevailing one from that time period? Hrmmmmm...

[dysfunctional press]

74. what style would you call this one...?

[Norrin Radd]

75. This

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Found_art

or a Gestalt (law of closure)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_psychology

[dysfunctional press]

97. so- god is into dada now...?

how retro of him.

[FudaFuda]

94. I thought "You have a marvelous virgin" was more 'doh!' than "who painted it?" n/t

[karynnj]

96. Here is a Mexican report -that is likely NOT based on the CNA story

(which I can't read ) but it looks like it happened.

"Ataviada con un traje sastre rojo encendido, y custodiada por un grupo de guardias del Servicio Secreto, Hillary Clinton recorrió el ala norte de la Basílica , que es la que lleva directamente hasta el atrio principal, en donde cuelga el ayate de San Juan Diego.

Monseñor Monroy le explicó el acontecimiento y códice guadalupano: el significado del manto; la consistencia; las rosas; las estrellas; las manos entrelazadas de la Virgen , cada detalle del ayate.

“Cuando le dije que era una imagen que se había quedado plasmada en el ayate de Juan Diego, dijo: ‘¿Pero quién pinto el cuadro, las rosas?’. El Padre Dios, le respondí."

Eso le impresionó mucho.


http://www.elmanana.com.mx/notas.asp?id=112023

From the babelfish translation, it appears they were looking at the actual relic, not the copy when the conversation took place. BUT, as I said I don't read Spanish and the translations from Babelfish are not always good - I assume there is someone who speaks Spanish here.

[AtomicKitten]

105. Hi Karyn.

When I first heard of this what I consider a blip on the faux pas meter, I recall distinctly that the painting was lowered down for Clinton to get a looksie. If the painting was lowered, it was the original. But who cares really? Her question was not a huge deal in light of the maze of superstition and dogma of the Catholic church to wade through, but obviously embarrassing enough to proffer the ridiculous original vs. copy explanation.

Frankly I find this whole thing a ridiculous exercise in trying to smooth over something that was no big deal to begin with but reminiscent of the Tuzla brouhaha when some here at DU actually claimed the video didn't have audio and we just couldn't hear the sniperfire.

Sometimes it's best to just let sleeping dogs go undisturbed lest they bite you in the ass.

[polmaven]

108. Might she not have looked at both

the original AND the copy, and then asked who painted the copy?

[ClarkUSA]

129. Here's the translation. This El Manana story backs up the CNA story. Surprise, surprise.

Also, El Manana's reporting adds details missing from the CNA report:

Ataviada con un traje sastre rojo encendido, y custodiada por un grupo de guardias del Servicio Secreto, Hillary Clinton recorrió el ala norte de la Basílica, que es la que lleva directamente hasta el atrio principal, en donde cuelga el ayate de San Juan Diego.

Wearing a red dress suit, and guarded by a group of guards of the Secret Service, Hillary Clinton toured the north wing of the Basilica, the one that leads directly to the main atrium, where the Ayate de San Juan Diego hangs.

Monseñor Monroy le explicó el acontecimiento y códice guadalupano: el significado del manto; la consistencia; las rosas; las estrellas; las manos entrelazadas de la Virgen , cada detalle del ayate.

Monsignor Monroy explained the event and the Guadalupe codex: the meaning of the mantle, the consistency, roses, stars, entwined hands of the Virgin, detail of Ayate.

“Cuando le dije que era una imagen que se había quedado plasmada en el ayate de Juan Diego, dijo: ‘¿Pero quién pinto el cuadro, las rosas?’. El Padre Dios, le respondí."

"When I told her it was an image that was reflected in the Ayate of Juan Diego, she said: 'But who painted the picture, the roses?'. "Father God, I answered."

Eso le impresionó mucho.

That impressed her.

With respect to the "explanation" proffered by the Clinton aide, it is interesting to note that there's no mention of viewing a "replica" in either the CNA report or the El Manana account. Gee, I wonder why? :eyes:

[karynnj]

131. Thanks, ClarkUSA! There are times I've wished I took Spanish rather than French

This is MUCH clearer than babelfish. :) It is a far more detailed account than the CNA one. It is nice that the Bishop took the time to explain the meaning of the various things.

[ClarkUSA]

133. Yeah, languages are fun, aren't they?

It is nice that the Bishop took the time to explain the meaning of the various things.

Yes, it was. I am sure Hillary will never forget his remarks. ;)

[Ilsa]

103. Will FOX and CNN and the others take back their slander? A correction is due. nt

[karynnj]

111. they might not believe the Clinton aides

1) The Mexican paper reported it clearly as speaking while at the real thing.

"Ataviada con un traje sastre rojo encendido, y custodiada por un grupo de guardias del Servicio Secreto, Hillary Clinton recorrió el ala norte de la Basílica , que es la que lleva directamente hasta el atrio principal, en donde cuelga el ayate de San Juan Diego.

Monseñor Monroy le explicó el acontecimiento y códice guadalupano: el significado del manto; la consistencia; las rosas; las estrellas; las manos entrelazadas de la Virgen , cada detalle del ayate.

“Cuando le dije que era una imagen que se había quedado plasmada en el ayate de Juan Diego, dijo: ‘¿Pero quién pinto el cuadro, las rosas?’. El Padre Dios, le respondí."

Eso le impresionó mucho.


http://www.elmanana.com.mx/notas.asp?id=112023

2) NO ONE asks who painted copies of famous objects. Go to any museum and ask who did anything in their gift shop and you will be told it is a reproduction of art by ....

This really is a case where simply saying she knew it was important, but forgot the story would be refreshing and honest - whatever is lost in appearing to not know that part of the culture is less than is loss when you try to cover up something that needs no cover up.

[ZombieHorde]

109. Doesn't matter.

The original was not painted by a supernatural creature, Clinton's question was legitimate.

[Beacool]

120. It matters around here if it can be used to trash Hillary.

The left, just as Clinton phobic as the right.

:shrug:

[karynnj]

132. No one is "trashing" HRC here

The fact is that any thing that doesn't say that she is beautiful, brilliant, a fantastic diplomat and probably the best person ever born is taken as "trashing".

Here, she very likely, was caught not knowing the background of a cultural/religious site. Saying this does not say;
- that she is dumb
- that she is insensitive
- that she did a bad job
- that she has major character flaws

Hillary is NOT perfect -no one is. Not Obama, not any Senator.

Worse things are ROUTINELY said of almost every other Democrat - including Obama.

Why not take issue with the incredible attacks on Dodd - where a 29 year record supporting things like Family leave (passed and signed by Clinton, giving Clinton an early popular victory) and standing up as strongly as anyone against FISA and the torture bill? Now, I think he did take far too much money from AIG and he is in trouble with the mortgage, but he is not the only person who to get money for elections risked looking like he did something wrong. I remember the 1996 Presidential election.)

[biopowertoday]

128. Looking at this thread -it me it looks like a RW Clinton thrashing

opportunity.