Put yourself in HIS shoes.

[Hellataz]

I think the saddest part here, is how so many of us share some substantial core ideals and values and yet everyday this site gets more and more negative, not just towards Obama but to our fellow Democrats, Liberals and Progressives, Lefties...whatever you want to be called. Most if not all of us want equal rights for EVERYONE, we want science and facts to prevail in our governing policies in leu of church and faith values that don't represent everyone. We don't subscribe to trickle down economics and we see the economy through a blue collar perspective instead of through the greedy eyes of Wall Street fat cats and Big Company CEOs. We value diplomacy, diversity, and strengthening communities with social programs. And we understand why Taxes need to be paid and the good that comes from participating in this civil duty.

So with all this in common, and with a President and a majority of Congress/Senate that share most of these same values, why all the hostility towards them and each other? Is this the UNITY that Obama asked us to strive for? Is it so impossible for some of us to stop projecting what we'd do under any given circumstance and remember that we don't know a fraction of what Obama knows about what is really going on in this country. We aren't privy to the vast informations, briefings and stress that he is, so why do we act like we could all do it so much better?

Have we become so jaded that we can't see the all good that's in front of us faces, or do we enjoy living our lives miserable, looking at every action in a negative suspect light devoid of hope that things will ever get better? I sure hope not.

I'm not saying that anyone here who's voices concern over Obama's decisions or policies doesn't have that right or doesn't have a valid concern. It's our patriotic duty to question our government and hold them accountable. They work for us. But it's also been my experience that more often then none, the employee who's actually doing the work, who's down in the trenches and making calls based on first hand accounts is in a better place to make the more informed decisions then their own boss who often sees things through a more narrow bottom line.
Obama is that employee.

Now my analogy might have some flaws, but to put it simply, as much as we bitch about what he is or isn't doing and on what time table, we wont ever know everything he does about the state of this union and all the facets of not just this country but the world that he has to juggle. And while that doesn't devalue our opinions on how we think he should govern this country, i think it's reasonable to stand back and say to ourselves that maybe Obama has good reasons for doing what he's doing and we just can't see the bigger picture at this time.

But yet, so many of us just immediately assume the worst. And after only a few months in office does he really deserve that?

Is it really too much to ask that we aim for party unity again and that if we feel the need to question Obama's actions and decisions we do so in a constructive way? I think President Obama has shown us that he's a straight forward, open minded, level headed guy. One who is more then willing to listen to the american people more then any president has. So does it not make sense that while browsing through our concerns and questions to him, that he's not going to be prone to respond to comments like "Fuck you Obama you don't care about gay people, fix my problem now!" or "You're nothing but Bush light, why did I ever vote for you, now stop this war now!". Isn't it more likely that this man of high intellect and reasoning is more willing to address concerns that come to him in a civil manner? Issues that come to him from people who show that they have some trust in him to do what is best even if they don't agree or understand and will give him their alternative viewpoints in a civil tone.

Here I go projecting, like i said not to, but if I were Obama with all the information, stress and GOP sabotage being thrown at him all while trying to do his historic presidency justice, the last thing I would be receptive to is more hostility from the base he looks to for his much needed support.

And as for the poster hostility towards one another, may I suggest that we put more thought into our thread titles, avoid posting negative Obama headlines as if we ourselves are repeating them or validating them. To staunch Obama supporters lets make an extra effort to post as much positive Obama news as we can find to balance the board out as well as give Obama doubters some reasonable leeway to their frustration instead of calling posters out for hating Obama. And to Obama doubters, can you try to refrain from accusing your fellow board members as Gay bashers or Blind Followers? I can't make anyone do any of this, but I do think it will help and allow us all to focus on what I think we all want, which is to see the democratic party continue to be successful and stay in a position to address our concerns in the future, because we all know, deep down, that as frustrating as it may seem now, it could ALWAYS BE WORSE....think Palin/Jindal 2012. And how much do you think they would care about your issues?

Thanks for letting me express my opinion.

[K Gardner]

1. You've said exactly what I'd have said had I the patience to put my disappointment

in this site into words. Thank you. I swear, it looks more everyday like this site has been taken over by teenagers with an obscene vocabulary or people from the "other side" posing as Democrats. Or perhaps both. :hi: K&R.

[Butch350]

27. Moles are here trying to seperate us and our resolve!

[intheflow]

2. Most thoughtful post I've read in a while.

Thank you for bringing civil discourse back to DU! K&R

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

3. Good post, but with some sinister overtones.

"It's our patriotic duty to question our government and hold them accountable."

No, it is our human right to do so if and when we feel like it.

To cast freedom as just another form of duty to the state is a popular mode of thought that peaked during the cold war.

It implies that democracy is something set up by THE STATE that is mother and father to us all as a better means of perfecting the state.

The general line of thought reached its fullest flower (or thousand flowers) in the Chinese cultural revolution.

When the government tells you to think for yourself you are usually being played.

[Hellataz]

7. Thank you, but also that part wasn't how i meant it and i do posted with sincerity.

Of course it's our human right, i'm just in the habit of saying it's our patriotic duty because the Repubs like to throw being patriotic around in terms of not questioning our government especially when they are the ones in power. Any sinister overtones you may have read into what i wrote were unintentional. I just want to be able to come here and read some more positive content once in a while, but also didn't want to give the impression that I thought it was ok to tell people how they should feel or act, just give an alternative solution to help us all get along better.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. If GDPers were in Obama's shoes, we'd have a full nuclear exchange with Belgium.

Belgium doesn't currently have a nuclear arsenal, but the teabaggers in GDP would find a way.

[me b zola]

5. K&R

:thumbsup:

[Number23]

6. You should read this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=8281733

This OP articulates many of the points that you've written here. Beautifully written by a person whom even his staunchest critics could never claim was not a true "bleeding heart" liberal.

You could almost hear the flesh melting off of the fingers of those who had been burned by this OP. :) The truth ain't easy for everyone to take, especially when constantly complaining and participating in counter-productive behavior will ALWAYS be so much easier.

[firedupdem]

8. K&R-Thank You. Great Post. n/t

[Zodiak]

9. I appreciate the civil tone and the well-thought argument

I can agree with you about always assuming the worst...it is a fair judgment of some of the criticism here. And of course, I agree 1000% when it comes to how posters treat each other...there just is no excuse for antisocial behavior, even if you think the other person is "stupid".

However, I have a couple of points of minor contention with your opening arguments.

1. The reasons some people assume the worst are unfortunately valid. The forces that put this country in its state still essentially have a great deal of power and worse, a lot of leverage. c.f. Bayh and his centrist obstructionists, the Repukes, the financial system, the military industrial complex, the media, etc. Kowtowing to these forces is still all too easy and all too unpunished...in fact, this country's leaders have kowtowed to them so much that the road to selling-out is well-worn. Please understand that assuming the worst may not necessarily have anything to do much with Obama, but with frustration that the pattern of right-wing capitulation is being repeated in important policy areas.

2. We cannot just assume Obama knows more than us and have faith that he will do the right thing. Such a notion is naive to a lot of posters here, and not only that, but it is an appeal to authority, which is a logical fallacy and a precept that runs against the grain of many anti-authoritarians who inhabit this site. It is also equally arguable that Obama cannot research everything by himself and has to rely on advisors for most of his information, and if those advisors are advocates of the "beltway wisdom", then Obama is getting bad information, which is considerably worse than too little information. Many on this site argue that many of President Obama's advisors are beltway insiders who are prone to bad decisions, so it follows that they may be giving bad advice, especially when Obama makes a decision that supports a status-quo and doesn't seem to be a good fix.

If you internalize these two points, I think you will have come a long way to understanding the other side. Of course, I do not necessarily think you need to because obviously you are not a participant in the latest blow-up, but from your OP I believe that you'd want to understand the other side better.

[Hellataz]

10. I do want to understand. I think people have a right to express their concerns.

But i also think that is an aspect of Obama people don't give him credit for, but instead persecute him for. When he reaches out to both sides to try and understand all sides of an argument, people blow up at him for giving the other side the time of day. But those people are assuming that Obama doesn't have a mind of his own and he can't take all sides and come up with a solution that best suits his parties ideals. I have that trust in him.

I also, maybe naively believe that he does know a lot more then we do, and many have taken to "arm chair" governing because they think they know what's best when i don't think they do. They are making judgments based on personal views and not taking into account this country as a whole. Obama has the difficult task, trying to do what's right while showing understanding and leniency to the the sides he might not agree with, so they may eventually come around to his way of thinking or at least be more susceptible to his opinion in the future.

You are right about not know how valid all of Obama's sources are, especially after learning at Cheney still has guys on the inside of intelligence agencies trying to manipulate policies, but I also don't believe that the average american, or even the biggest political junky is more "in the know" then Obama based on their ability to google. I think Obama juggles way more then we all know and i wish more people would give him that benefit of the doubt.

I'd also like to a stop all the really hostile anger towards Obama that seems to stem from understandable frustration and impatience, but ultimately ends up making us look like a party divided. I hate thinking that idiots like members of Freeperland come him and are laughing their ass off at us going at it and fighting THEIR fight for them.

[Zodiak]

11. Once again, there are other perceptions for these points you make.

For one, one big argument that has been bandied around here for some time before President Obama took the oath was that he is not bringing in the left at all to sit at the table. In some cases, the left was allowed in the room to speak, but only after pressure was applied. So to many people here, it is not that the right has been allowed in the room, it is that the left continues to be shut out. If this is one's perception, surely you understand how they could be angry and frustrated, especially after working so hard to get the man elected.

Accusing someone of "armchair" governing is not helpful. There are the opinions of many experts in matters of policy issues to draw from to formulate one's opinion. Also, I have not seen sufficient evidence that critics are not caring about the country as a whole....often I see many of them arguing their points precisely because they do care about this country as a whole. Perhaps being more specific than vague would not only make your point more clear, but it would go a long way towards not making that seem like a blanket accusation.

Lastly, there are also a number of DUers who don't give a flip what the people on Freerepublic think and never did. What is said here is an argument amongst family, and if some peeping toms want to look through the window and snicker, leave them to it.

Trust me, the fight that critics on this site are engaging in doesn't even closely resemble the fight that Freerepublic would wage. I find it unproductive that so many here try to equate criticism from the left as the same as criticism from the right. The right wants Obama to fail and the left wants him to succeed, and therein lies all of the difference.

As far as really hostile anger towards Obama...no, I do not like it when it is over the top, either. But I see that the attempt to squelch that particular brand of critic has also had a chilling effect on those who would not behave in that manner. The ardent are not going to shut up when pressured, but many even-tempered people will consciously avoid a hostile environment if they perceive it to be so.

[Political Heretic]

15. Thank you. Best post in the thread - thoughtful and accurate.

[Hellataz]

18. I don't agree with the assessment that his detractors here are "experts"

I accused possibly well informed or passionate posters of "arm chair" governing, because they are judging him and demanding he do it THEIR way without presuming to know all the facts. I agreed with you that Obama might be getting tainted info from inside government sources and advisors from time to time leading a reasonable window to question his decisions, but you in turn should admit that the majority of people HERE that criticize him are doing with info from the MSM and the internet, which is just as easily susceptible to being tainted, in fact has become obviously so. I believe between the two sources of flowing information about our nation, Obama still has the inside track and therefor should be allowed a little more leeway instead of people just assuming that he doing something "bush like" or doesn't care about a certain group and is actively sabotaging their efforts for equality.

I hate to agree with some here that say people are just pissed because they don't have their "pony", but sometimes it's true. I'm not saying with every Obama critic, but for the most part the majority of criticism i've seen is not about him not doing anything about their cause, it's about him not doing it at THEIR pace. I think that a lot of this criticism is a byproduct of hope and high expectations breaking down into reality. I don't think his DU detractors hate Obama or want him to fail, but I do think they are not doing anything CONSTRUCTIVE to help him succeed. Obama is not a man that responds to that type of hostile tactic, he seems to respect civil disagreements and can more easily respond and resolve problems brought to him by people with a cool head and alternative solutions vs people just having knee jerk reactions to his policies without learning all the facts, which I'm sorry to say, happens here a lot from DU posters.

I'm not saying that we have to give up trying to make this country or world a better place and trying to right every wrong, but we need to let go of the immense expectations that were forced upon Obama and recognize that he has really tough calls to make with factors that we don't know all the details about, and he's doing his best in terms of reality, not the ideal like we wish he could.

As for comparing DU Obama detractors to Freerepublic posters, I didn't. I merely made a localized point that shows the state of the democratic party all over this country, not just here, but other sites, MSM, Blogs and pundents. This isn't about us caring what freepers think of us, it's about them using us in their on going war to sabotage everything Obama tries to do. It's their ability to see the cracks in our parties unity and use them to further their own agendas. Our discourse strengthens THEM. And they really, IMO do not need anything fueling or justifying their irrational hate. And Obama doesn't need to be fighting a war on both sides during this up hill battle he's coursed. He needs our support and understanding and that if we need to criticize that we show him some respect while doing it.

[Zodiak]

20. On your title, you misread my post

I said that DUers have experts to draw from. I did not say that DUers themselves are experts.

Without information from MSM and the internet, there is no information at all. Informed citizens have to have information, and that information is used to form opinion. We cannot simply doubt all sources of information and assume Obama knows more than everyone else collectively. Such a position is inherently servile and unworthy of Jefferson's vision of civic virtue. Trust in Obama and an assumption of that he has better information are both devoid of basis in fact...they are beliefs, and should be given the weight of belief when contrary facts are introduced.

The "pony" thing is insulting, please refrain from it, even if you feel it is sometimes true. There are much nicer ways to characterize people's chief political drives than comparing it to some spoiled child wanting a pony. A person's civil rights, ending the destruction of war, keeping one's job, keeping one's house, keeping people free of our oppressive system of criminal justice etc. are not "ponies".

I think you have the party unity cracking thing backwards. It is not the liberals of the party who have chosen to break away from Obama, but the centrists. And Obama is trying to appease them. The liberals criticize but still support Obama, as evidenced in poll after poll.

By the way, if Obama doesn't respond at all to hostile tactics, then he would never have chosen Hillary as his SOS nor consulted with McCain after we won the Presidency. He would not have Republicans in his cabinet, and he would not be inviting right-wing religious groups to meet him. In fact, he goes out of his way to engage those who seem hostile to him. Why would he loathe the left for criticizing him and at the same time embrace those that are really, truly, openly, and actively working against him? If that it is the case, it is a double-standard, but I suspect that is not the case. Obama said he wants criticism...we should take him at his word.

For years people have been coming to DU and saying we cannot criticize Democrats because it makes a few people on the Freerepublic happy. Such an argument is weak for many reasons, but the main reason it is weak is that Freerepublic and DU are simply echo chambers that have very little bearing on politics as a whole in this country. The rivalry between us and that site amounts to absolutely nothing at the end of the day and resembles competing high school football teams more than it does true political forces. The petty events that happen on these websites do not translate to national politics, and therefore we should not act like we are airing our differences on CNN. Think about this....what has ANY DU said that has ever been picked up by a Freeper and used to damage a Democratic politician? It simply has not happened, and I suspect it never will.

[Hellataz]

21. He does meet with people who have shown hostility in the past but not the present

He meets with people who has been hostile to him in the past or groups who disagree with him, but if you look closely he opts to sit down with people he thinks are reasonable and willing to listen to his side as he is shows them he is willing to listen to them. I highly doubt he makes a habit of pulling people into the oval office who are actively wishing him ill will like i have seen from many here at DU. That's one of the things i like about him, his open mindedness, but meeting with people who disagree with you is not the same thing as courting discussions with hostile people. We even see him breaking away from bi-partisan talks in concerns with his budget he's figuring out that the people who only offer up negativity are not worth his time.

I can also see how the Pony thing can be insulting, but I feel personally insulted but each one of those posters who try and call me or other DU members out for being bigots, or not caring about civil rights issues just because we maintain our support of the president. It goes both ways. I am a staunch supporter for GBLT issues and it's really offenses me to see DUer's caught up in the hostility because people of that community are impatient with Obama pace on this issue. We aren't bigots and we do care and so does Obama, but to see statements like "Fuck you Obama you don't care about us"...does at times come of juvenile. I will never pretend to know the inequality they feel, but I do know my history and I know that these movements take time and the sad reality is that america still isn't ready to prioritize this issue above something that effects everyone like the economy. Does that mean we don't care, does it mean Obama doesn't care...NO, it means he's picking his moment to address this when he feels the country is in a more stable place.

And yes it is the liberal, or most of them, because i consider myself one, that are breaking away from him, maybe not in polls, but here at DU it's what i have read. Obama is doing the right thing trying to appease as many people as he can, it makes him a more efficient leader with the support and clout to get things done. It's maybe something that is unpleasant to think about, but he is a politician and aside from leading this nation he has another objective, Winning another term so he can stay in office and continue helping us. He can't do that if he alienates everyone but the left. He promised on election night to be everyone's president not just the democrats. I thing it's fair for him to try given no republican president would ever consider giving liberals their ear and governing to the center.

Lastly your point about the validity of information from the MSM and the internet, sorry but i maintain my disagreement on this point. I watch and read a lot and it's all skewed. Cable news is only interested in ratings and commentary and a large majority of internet info is unsubstantiated. President Obama I'm sure reads the same stuff we do, but the difference is he has the ability and resources to find out what is true and what isn't from washington sources. Our access to the people behind the doors of congress, the pentagon and white house are far more limited. But still Obama reaches out to us for our opinion, but that's not good enough for some, they feel the need to bite off his ear and he offers it to us and that, IMO will get really old, really fast.

[noiretextatique]

22. you don't think the republican party

is "actively wishing obama ill?" you are very naive.

[Hellataz]

32. When did I say that?

I've said repeatedly that they are trying to sabotage him, but also said that a few that he has chosen to heed advise from or bring to his cabinet aren't people he views as hostile towards him.

[Odin2005]

12. I agree with you completely.

It's hard to imagine what what BS Obama and Geithner are having to deal with. I can see then wanting to do something good and start banging their heads against the wall then Rahm comes in with the latest update on the chatter in Congress and tells them that the DINOs will get in the way of it, with a snarky bash of Lieberman thrown in.

[bigwillq]

13. is this type of behavior happening

on any other progressive website? :shrug: I hardly ever visit any other progressive website besides DU, so I really don't know.

I don't really think it's too big of a deal that there are some negative comments here. Some probably are true and honest in their negative replies (which is fine by me, I can't tell a person how to act or feel towards another person, whether that person is the President or a Democrat or not. Just because some people are democrats, we don't have to like them and we should be able to express our opinion when we don't like someone).

Some may do it just for discussion's sake.

And some just take DU way too seriously, good and bad.


But I would like to have an answer on my first question. :)

[Political Heretic]

14. No. I refuse. He should be putting himself in the shoes of the American working class.

President Obama works for us. I don't need to think about how he "feels" or how "hard" the job is. I need to think about the kind of leadership America NEEDS and what our President could be DOING with his political brilliance and his political capital.

When it comes issues of economic justice, he's choosing to spend it satisfying Wall Street instead of fighting for main street, and that's unfortunate.

[bertman]

16. Thank you for saying that, Political Heretic. I agree with you.

[Runcible Spoon]

17. +1

[Hellataz]

19. I think he has shown he puts himself in our shoes.

Do you honestly see the GOP giving a shit about the middle class or taking steps to help us recover? Hell no. They are bitching about Obama making the GM CEO step down and they are proposing nothing but a budget of tax cuts for the WEALTHY to fix this economy.

You should care about how he feels, because from what i've seen of this man, he cares very much for how you and the american people feel, even people that disagree with him, but he's under immense pressure to do the right thing while battling a GOP sabotage plan the entire time and instead of us backing him up, all we can do is bitch that he isn't handling things that way WE think he should, without even considering how bad this country would be if McCain and Palin had won this election.

[redqueen]

25. Excellent response. (nt)

[debbierlus]

29. Amen. In his shoes, I would do a HELL of a lot of things differently

Like fire Geithner

Put Howard Dean as the chair of HHS

End ALL Bush era unconstitutional practices

Bail Out the people, not the CEOs & shareholders

This is surreal. Unity? Unity in what? Silence in the face of injustice? Silence in the face of our printing presses cranking out 1.3 trillion of worthless money?

No. Won't do it. As long as Obama remains a corporatist vested in ressurrecting a broken, criminal, mafiaesque system of wealth in place instead of real change...NO.

When I spoke out against the same damn things under the Bush administration, DU couldn't get enough.

Obama pulls similiar crap, and it smells like roses? Are yeah kidding me?

[Solon]

23. I really don't care about your pet issues, thanks anyways.

:eyes:

[Cha]

24. Thanks, Hellataz, this needs to

be said and you're one of DUer's who's stepping up. Let's hope this out of control behavior of writing "Fuck you Obama" stops.

[Butch350]

26. I want to ride in your band wagon buddy!

Nicely put. I'm right there with you. From me to Mr Obama, "Semper Fidelis" !

[azmouse]

28. I'm pleased that a man like Pres Obama was willing to step up

and take on what must be an extremely tough job at a really bad time.

[SwiperFox]

30. Beyond naive!

So you think Obama is above us all? Are you insane or simply inebriated from massive doses of propaganda?

You actually propose toning down criticism to play party politics as a spectator sport? Freerepublic vs. DU, Dems vs. Repubs...
THINK FOR YOURSELF! Who is this Obama anyway? Why do you trust him so? You trust him with your taxes, children's future, ecology and with your safety? He is a stranger, just like anyone you see in the street yet you trust him blindly. What is wrong with you? Politicians are professional liars. They are all millionaires, are you? Why do you think he wants to guard YOUR interests and not those of his class? The ruling class, the money class. You are part of us, the unwashed masses (as we appear to them). Has he prosecuted the war criminals? The embezzlers? No he gives (steals) more of OUR $ and protects them. He just wants to look to the future. At the G20 he reinforced his SICK position. "Looking for those who are to blame is history. We must move forward; we are all responsible." -Obama Goddamn, by that reasoning, in theory, we should steal a bank and then declare it history while walking out with sacks of cash over our shoulders. Truly amazing.




To those with the pony statements, all evidence points to this, Obama's idea of a pony for the working class:





So if you want an us vs. them situation, join the winning side, the side of THE PEOPLE! DAMMIT!

[Hellataz]

33. I never once said he was above us all or better, just more informed

And your response, so hostilely attacking me other posters and Obama is the type of over reactionary post I posted my Op in response to. Knee Jerk reactions because you aren't willing to understand where he's coming from, you just assume he's a tool for bank CEO's and that he thinks it's ok to let bad things slide. You never once thought that there were other reasons for his decisions, you have an outside perspective while I and many others are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[SwiperFox]

34. Naivette continued...

So he is better informed? we have 8 years of info right here on DU and he continues with the same disgusting policy.
Also, you think my words equal a knee-jerking reaction? Please, we've had 8+ years of crime after crime, lie after lie and you still cannot see through the propaganda. What is with this Obama? Y'know, Hitler was adored by fans too. Bet they thought he could do no wrong. I am not equating Hitler with Obama, but the sentiment of their followers are truly on par here. Exclude the holocaust, we're talking politics here.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

31. I was confused .........

The past week or so - maybe longer - I've been seeing threads about the dissension and nastiness on DU, the Obama-bashing, the nastiness, the devolution that DU has experienced since the election.

I was confused, because I never saw any of those threads, and I hit DU at all hours, so that was a puzzlement.

I thought maybe people who had been angry at Chimpy Fucknuts for eight years didn't know what to do with that anger, and so Obama was catching it.

I did see some threads demanding that Obama address this or that issue IMMEDIATELY, that people hadn't voted for him to increase troops in Afghanistan, that he hadn't done a thing to bring gay marriage onto the forefront, and some other topics. I got hammered once or twice because I dared to point out that he'd been in office only two months; that did not go over well with those who seemed to think they knew more than Obama did.

I'm willing to trust Obama. I like everything about him, even if I haven't agreed with all he's done. It takes time for things to shake out, to see how they're working, and I don't think anyone here at DU has the expertise to have any kind of informed opinion about this Wall Street business, so I just laugh them off.

And I use my "Ignore" option with great panache. One strike and you're out.

Then it hit me! I realized why I wasn't seeing all those nasty threads you refer to.

I have those people on "Ignore."

Damn, but I'm good. I can spot them from a country mile away.

Great post, great thinking, great sentiment. Well done, and thank you.

[SwiperFox]

35. ...

You don't expect people to be MAD AS HELL? Every day there is evidence of Obama being Bush Lite. The bailouts (stolen money from us as gifts to corps/banks), the war on terra continues, refusal to bring war criminals to justice, etc.

[JTFrog]

36. Bush Lite?

You obviously bumped your head and took a wrong turn.

[SwiperFox]

39. -

You are either profiting from the rampant criminality going on or truly need psychological aid. By the way, personal attacks to shut down discussion is a pathetic strategy. Beware, your higher-ups may be monitoring this.

[JTFrog]

40. I hope so. Someone needs to be monitoring your activity on this democratic board. n/t

[Tangerine LaBamba]

38. And we have another winner!!!!

Ding! Ding! Ding!

<click>

[JTFrog]

41. Gotta love those showing their asses with the "Bush-lite" meme. n/t

[annabanana]

37. Some here have raised armies of straw and then spent

a lot of time battling them. I would say that 95% of DUers like the guy, and have a few problems with some devilly details.

"hide this thread" is my friend.