Well Cry me a river DU!!!! (Those Photos Obama won't release)

[Perky]

We now have people suggesting that detainee torture is somehow equivalent to the Holocaust in terms of egregiousness and a strawman argument that since we did not hide those photos, we should not hide these.

Gimme a break! No one is hiding anything!!!

THERE IS LITTLE VALUE IN PUBLICLY providing these photos to the media. No one is trying to whitewash anything.

PLease for the love of God get your heads out your ass.

Publication of these photos taints the Jury pool.
Publication of these photos gives propganda fodder to the enemy and at least in theory puts our troops at greater risk
Publication of thess photos could destabalize Pakistan even more.
Publication of these photos dominates the news cycle for weeks with very little upside
Publication of these photos establishes a rallying point for the GOP

THe Preseindet is not caputulating to anyone. He is not appeasing Cheney. It is TRIAL EVIDENCE and should be treated as such.

THe only place these photos should go is to federal prosecutors.

IT IS MORE IMPORTANT.....TEN THOUSAND TIMES MORE IMPORTANT...... THAT THESE CRIMINALs HAVE A FAIR TRIAL AND THEN GO TO PRISON, THAN IT IS TO SATISFY EITHER YOUR PRURIENT INTEREST, OR YOUR SILLY NEED FOR A "GOTCHA" EVENT.

You call for justice and yet you want to destroy the very opportunity for justice to be served?

[villager]

1. *Will* it be "trial evidence?" Whose trial, exactly?

n/t

[Perky]

4. I have no Idea but why publish if some might stand trial?

[villager]

Ah. Some "might" stand trial. Someday. Maybe. Perhaps. When our powder's all dry.

Perhaps the odds of them actually having a trial would be increased if the photos of their crimes were released?

[mikelgb]

13. ...

:think:

[Perky]

14. ANd so does the potential for mistrial,

[villager]

26. for the trials that "might" happen. Someday. to someone. Somewhere.

n/t

[Perky]

30. If you can guarantee that there will be no trials... THen there is noreason to sequester the photos

But you have no way of proving that and infact Obama hiself sayid that release of the photos would damange "other investigations"

[villager]

31. and if you can be strung along with what "might" happen "someday,"

then I guess the Democratic party under Bush seemed like a group of bold,visionary defenders of the underdog.

I have very little faith that these professional pols -- currently in the back pocket of the banks, among other elite interests -- will do anything that inconveniences their career trajectories, including getting their hands dirty with this "torture business," if its too politically "troublesome."

You, however, are quite free to think that "someday" -- surely it's just around the corner! - the Democrats and our "Justice" Department are about to deliver something they haven't even bothered to promise.

[Perky]

44. Give a rational reason to release the photos given the arguments made in the OP

and I have an intelligent discussion with you,,,, but you have to come up with more than "there is value in releasing" what is the value> DOes it serve the cause of Justice. I would argue not. Does it score political points? Of course....but what is the value in that? YOu think the release is going tomake Hannity and Limbuagh and Beck shut up? YOu think CHeny will slither away? You think Pakistan would be more stable. THey want crazy over a cartoon........ WHo wins? if they are released?

[villager]

50. I think there would be value in letting the American people finally "see," at last

what they're government did in their names...

Otherwise, we have Iran/Contra-style cover-ups, and the same toxic actors walk around free, and will come back to drive the tattered remains of American democracy even further into the ground...

[Perky]

52. AH....so it is not about jjustice it is about exposure?

[TankLV]

85. It's about JUSTICE AND EXPOSURE!!!

It's about PROSECUTION AND PUNISHMENT of the WAR CRIMINALS!!!

[Perky]

92. Ecplaing to me how the phot release leads to Justice!

[rocktivity]

97. Taint the jury pool? What you do think Cheney's been doing?

:rofl:
rocktivity

[Perky]

118. Cheny is trying to innoculate himself from prosecution

By picking a fight with Obama, he is setting up an argument that any prosecution is political retribution for him speaking his mind. The argument is specious. but the strategy is actually pretty brilliant. Prosecution will thus make "Cheney the martyr for the cause" and the RW media uses it to rally the base and creating a toxic environment and a tgree ring circus that;s will be Watergate and the OJ trial rolled into one. He daring Holder to prosecute, bacause its likely that most judges would rule this is politics and quash any indictment.

[Supersedeas]

99. great point....the entire argument pivots on whether prosecutions are genuine objectives

[lamp_shade]

2. But I want to see the torcher pitchers!!!!! Kick and recommend. Good post.

[fascisthunter]

3. Did Obama Say there would Be a Trial?

interesting wishful thinking/spin

[Thrill]

6. Go listen to what he said at his presser.

About how it can be used in other investigations

[vaberella]

66. That's why my own outrage was totally snuffed out Thrill. He specifically said that.

Thrill can you make that it's own thread...because there are too many damn idiots on this board.

[Perky]

8. No and he should not comment on a trial he should depoliticize this

rather than daming the process either by naming names or releasing photos.

[liberalmuse]

5. You really shouldn't jump on people...

or attempt to belittle those who are appalled by torture and want justice. I wish I could believe you, but I honestly doubt these fuckers will be brought to justice. The whitewash has already begun. President Obama has yet to show good faith on this, and this is coming from a pretty staunch defender of this President. Until now.

[Perky]

10. He can't talk about prosecution.....

Justice can not be served if he used the Bully pulpit to say people (specific people need to stand trial)

[AndyA]

7. This is speculation on your part.

No one has said they are trial evidence and as such will not be released at this time. If they have, please provide a link.

[Perky]

12. Are they pictures of torture?

Od course they are evidence.

[AndyA]

39. I'll believe it when charges are filed.

Until then, it's all speculation.

[rug]

9. Taint the jury pool. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tace]

15. "There's A Sucker Born Every Minute"

Sucker

We wouldn't have had to deal with this crap if we would have prosecuted Nixon, and then Reagan and Poppy. This is just more of the same.

[Perky]

18. Its the equivalent to a prosecutore releasing grisly crime scene photos,

befre the trial even starts.

[Tace]

22. Perky: There's No Prosecutor

Nobody has been charged with anything. I'd suggest it's more like a victim releasing evidence to the public that MIGHT prompt a prosecution, instead of the usual whitewash by the Good 'Ole Boys.

In any case, I sure don't know what's best here. I just want Bushco, including *, prosecuted for war crimes.

[Perky]

28. I son't want them merley prosecuted. I want them found guilty!

And handing these photo oth to the media, is the best way to stop these prosecutions from happening.

[Tace]

35. I Dunno'.

From what I understand, the most-gnarly stuff is video tapes with audio of small boys being sodomized.

Anyway, the cat is out-of-the-bag.

Bushco are war criminals, the entire bunch.

[Sebastian Doyle]

25. Gotta go back before that.

If we had prosecuted Prescott Bush for funding Hitler and profiting from concentration camps, there would not have been a Nixon, Reagan, Poppy, Chimp, or Cheney.

Where's that fucking dimensional gate machine from last night's episode of "Fringe"?

[Tace]

37. Good Point

And, not unlike today, there's no way a powerful banker is going to stand trial for anything. Dang, and I thought banking would be boring, so I studied journalism. Shows what a dummy I am. : )

[jeanpalmer]

112. It's just information

Democracy can't function if government can keep information from the public. The more disclosure, the better. More outrage so it won't happen again.

[asphalt.jungle]

16. there is no jury pool

these photos were already used in prosecutions, which makes the cover-up angle silly.

[onenote]

17. agreed

I understand on a certain level why people want these released. But they should ask themselves this: should crime scene photos from rapes and murders and child molestations be released to the public? If a police officer sexually abuses someone in his custody, should the crime scene photos be available to anyone and everyone to see? Should they be made available before charges are brought or a trial is conducted or while an investigation is ongoing?

[lamp_shade]

19. Thanks for making sense, but I think I'm the only one who actually READ your post?

[villager]

27. No. Perhaps one of the few who agrees with it in its entirety?

n/t

[azmouse]

40. I read it and thought it made lots of sense.

But we know there are many DUers who can't let that get in the way of a good rant... and the chance for them to make hundreds of posts about the issue of the day.

I see you're one of very few who are willing to wait and see what Pres Obama has planned. Thank you.

[jgraz]

20. You couldn't be more wrong

I'd post a detailed response, but why bother when Cenk Uygar already said what needs to be said;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5648686&mesg_id=5648686

[pnorman]

21. "Publication of these photos taints the Jury pool. "

That's probably the most important thing to bear in mind.

I ask others here to think back on all those HOWLS of disappointment-fueled outrage, even going back to details of the Inauguration Ceremony. In his own "think 3 or 4 moves ahead" manner, Obama has DELIVERED. Keep a close eye on what he says & does, but DON'T get hysterical!

pnorman

[lamp_shade]

23. He has a calculating, deliberate and analytical mind. I wait and I watch.

[spoony]

46. Yeah yeah he's a chess player blah blah

Doesn't it get old excusing constant delays and contradictions by insisting that it's part of some great scheme? We've heard it about wire taps and torture prosecutions and DADT and those grand deadlines and strong-arm tactics applied to car companies to keep them out of bankruptcy. It goes on and on. It seems to me that deliberate and calculating mind is that of a politician, which is honestly not that special a trait.

[pnorman]

53. Ordinarilly, that by itself would make me decidedly uneasy!

I could think of far worse descriptions of Dick Cheney, but that would certainly be an apt one. But my entire sensory apparatus tells me that Barak Obama IS GOOD, and is driven by an intense desire to DO GOOD!

pnorman

[Uncle Joe]

24. Dick Cheney is trying to white wash it with his public relations extravaganza and too many

of his corporate media propaganda puppets readily agree.

If there is going to be any accountability against the people that drafted, legalized and promoted torture, there will need to be a national political will to do so and fighting against the exposure of these photos basically cedes the battle field to Cheney and his cronies, meanwhile the American People can be treated to Jack Bauer propaganda as a means to alleviate any public queasiness regarding war crimes.

Detainee torture and the Holocaust are the same evil dynamic with only one exception, that being the level of magnitude. In both cases the prisoners were dehumanized and just as an Acorn can become a tree, these policies; unless thoroughly repudiated with the "leadership" which drafted, promoted and legalized them held to account will grow again.

Finally if the release of these photos are so important to any trial, why would the Appeals Court rule for them to be released?

[quickesst]

29. Thinking...

..before jumping has always been good advice. Thanks.
quickesst

[DU GrovelBot]

32. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

This week is our second quarter 2009 fund drive.
Donate and you'll be automatically entered into our daily contest.
New prizes daily!



No purchase or donation necessary. Void where prohibited. Click here for more information.

[Bucky]

41. Publication of these photos makes few people DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND

[phleshdef]

33. Plus, as one poster said, if they were trying to "whitewash", the memos wouldn't have been released

[ecstatic]

36. An ACLU guy on Ed Shultz's show pretty much said he thinks Obama is a liar

and hinted that Obama was on Cheney's side. :eyes:

It irritated me but I think he represents the views of many liberals who simply do not trust President Obama or give him the benefit of doubt. That is why on DU and around the liberal blogosphere there is fresh outrage every single day regarding something Obama said or did. Logic/reason never seems to enter the discussion. At the end of the day, if I have to choose between shrill whiners and Obama, I'm going with Obama!

[phleshdef]

38. Yea, I saw that. And yea, people need to appreciate this our most Liberal president, maybe ever.

[lamp_shade]

42. I saw that (I think it was Hardball). I used to have a high regard for the ACLU.

This guy seemed to be only interested in seeing the naughty pictures. Not a good representative. I trust Obama.

[ecstatic]

43. oops...yeah I think it was Hardball

The shows just seem to merge into each other. LOL

[tomp]

82. only a fool would give a politician the benefit of the doubt. nt

[LibertyorDeath]

34. In you dreams

"THESE CRIMINALs HAVE A FAIR TRIAL AND THEN GO TO PRISON"

LOL America has willingly supported Dictators around the World for decades that routinely torture and murder their Citizens.

This is just closer to home but inevitable.

These criminals will retire in comfort style and "freedom".

PRISON LOL you hear that that's the sound of Rove Laughing....

[Born_A_Truman]

45. Has the ACLU stated the purpose of wanting the photos released to them?

[Perky]

49. There ED was on Hardball ans said baisically they wanted them relewased spo that people

could see the horrors of Bushco,

[Born_A_Truman]

55. Actually, anyone that doesn't know it now doesn't need more pictures

People like Liz Cheney could view torture in person and still deny it's torture. I won't view them even if released. I had my fill the first round. Even before that I knew Bushco was evil and didn't need pictures for proof.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted sub-thread

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[Zenlitened]

48. Is this the official STFU script, or just an early draft?

:shrug:

[Revolution9]

51. what ever happened to getting the truth out?

i think the idea of not being outraged is naive and apologetic

[Perky]

54. WHo said outrage was bad?

It is fine to be outraged. but outrage has to harnessed sothat that criminals don't go free, THre greater outrage is if there will be no trials,

Or if there is an ezcalation of roadise bombs or if Pakistan becomes less stable.

ALl of this plays into the GOPs hans. THey would blame Obama, for any of these things happening. THey would say he did it to kowtow to the left.


It would damage prosecutions, THat would be more outrageous.

[Revolution9]

86. what prosecutions?

the whole "get the truth out" thing was a lie?
put the pictures out!

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

56. That's a good list of reasons to not release the photos, although I'm skeptical

that there will be any trials.

[kid a]

57. K & R - good post.

[Tarheel_Dem]

58. I wish I could recommend this post 2 dozen times. Thank you so much.

:applause:

[Raine]

64. Me too!

:thumbsup:

[Lyric]

59. I want them released.

Those were real people, real lives--mothers, fathers, sons, daughters. They aren't anyone's fucking political football, and considering how they suffered at OUR hands, they deserve better from us now than to be hidden away for the sake of political expediency. I am a victim's advocate--I couldn't give a flying fuck who it inconveniences.

Go tell a tortured, sodomized child that his suffering isn't important or politically-convenient enough to fuck up our goddamned news cycle.

:grr:

[Name removed]

61. Deleted sub-thread

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[Name removed]

65. Deleted sub-thread

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[Name removed]

67. Deleted sub-thread

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[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

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[CrawlingChaos]

74. I agree with you Lyric

Nothing, and I mean nothing, should be sanitized for the well-insulated American public. That's been the problem all along.

[Two Americas]

108. thank you

I am so sorry to see you attacked the way you are. It is just sickening to read what people are saying, on thread after thread and on every subject. It has gone way too far now with these attacks on you. I think they will sop at nothing, to do what? Are we to believe they are defending the president? I don't think so. They are destroying the administration in the name of defending it, and damaging the party and the community here beyond any possibility of repairing them.



...

[Lyric]

120. Not to worry, TA. When it becomes obvious that the goal

is not to express an oppositional opinion, but is instead to discredit the messenger via personal attacks so that the message is lost, well that's when I tend to lose interest in the debate. I didn't even see most of what was deleted above. :)

[Bluerthanblue]

119. well Lyric- people on both sides of this issue are USING the photos

of REAL people "like a fucking political football"-

Maybe the fate of these photos should be decided by those who actually endured the torture? Those who are still alive?

Maybe the last thing a sodomized child would want is to have a graphic image of their nightmare plastered all over the news?

I too care about the victims- I care more about them than any 'promise' or any 'arguments' on any fucking internet- any of the party politics or talking points.

Would the release of the photos to the general public at this particular time really make anything any better for the victims? Could it make things worse? Who should decide that? Who serves to suffer as a result?

Outrage is all fine and dandy- but if you think you are the only one who cares about the victims of our country's sins- you need to do some more thinking.

Maybe we owe it to them, to consider VERY carefully the decisions we think are "our" prerogative- but which impact far more than "our" self-centered lives???

[ProSense]

60. "Publication of these photos taints the Jury pool. "

You mean more than Cheney admitting torture on every TV show during prime viewing times?

[Name removed]

62. Deleted sub-thread

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[Raine]

63. Agree

you're totally on point. :thumbsup:

[John Q. Citizen]

69. In your OP you tell DUers "PLease for the love of God get your heads out your ass."

I think you should take you own advice.

It does explain your OP though.

[slay]

70. BULLSHIT!!! If it's trial evidence then fucking say so and start the trial otherwise your excuse is

all in your mind!

[Alcibiades]

71. Sad, really

Time to hit the all caps key, but not the spell check.

[Bluenorthwest]

72. The President said these were closed cases

a handful of people who have already been punished. So I think you are wrong and he's doing the cover up tango. I hope the court rules against him.

[file83]

77. The President also said there wasn't going to be any prosecutions...

...so this "protecting evidence for trial" theory is already debunked.

It's a cover up.

[ZombieHorde]

73. "strawman argument that since we did not hide those photos, we should not hide these."

How is that a strawman argument?

[snowdays]

75. The RW is so proud of you. You agree with them.

[Budgies Revenge]

76. thinking out loud here

All of this is just my humble opinion. Sorry for the length.....

I’ll admit that the “tainting of the jury pool” argument had not occurred to me before and may be valid. Unfortunately, I have no confidence at the moment that there will ever actually be a trial unless something is done to rally public support for it. A disheartening number of people in this country still seem to believe some variation on the following premises: that we have not committed torture, that prosecutions are not warranted even if they believe torture has been committed, or that torture is often justified. Hell, I was in an argument yesterday because a “libertarian” friend told me that no detainees have been killed while in U.S. custody. There is some sort of horrible disconnect going on here, and the only thing that might have a chance of breaking through is the release of these photos.

The argument against release of the photos because it will put our troops at greater risk is interesting because it tacitly acknowledges that the “pro release” camp has a valid point: The photos may be powerful enough to sway opinion. Whose opinion we are worried about swaying is where the differences appear. The “pro camp” argues that we need to release the photos because it might finally persuade the American public to recognize that what we have done is indeed torture, and that it must be prosecuted. The “anti-release” camp argues that the photos will galvanize opinion in the middle east against us—or at the very least will provide a useful recruitment tool to those who want to fight us.
The only problem I can see with the “anti-release” camp’s argument is that this horse left the barn long ago. What has occurred is not exactly a secret. There are already enough photos, stories, and documents out there right now to serves as recruitment tools for years to come. This is also leaving out the fact that our military is still engaged in conflict in Iraq, Afghanistan, and to a lesser degree, Pakistan. Someone might be enraged enough to fight if he is shown one of these torture photos, but I guarantee you he will be more likely to fight--or easier to recruit--if his whole family is killed in a bombing raid, or if his father was taken away by U.S. forces during the night, or if his sister was raped and then shot. My point here is not to disparage the military—my point is that if you live in a war zone long enough, you will probably see or hear enough to radicalize you, regardless of what the government decides to do about these photos.


Pakistan seems to be destabilizing quite nicely with or without the help of these photos.


IF these photos are as shocking as they are purported to be, then God help the GOP if they use it as a rallying point—or I more to the point, God help the United States if it actually works to strengthen them, because we will be willingly and knowingly throwing away any shred of human decency we ever had. I guess on some level, that is what I want to know—will my country fail this test? If it’s going to fail, let it be done now. At least we will have no more illusions about what sort of people we really are.

[Usrename]

78. Sure, the courts can all go screw themselves.

Who cares if the courts says they have to release the stuff? What do they know, anyhow?

:sarcasm:

[mystieus]

79. Well said, Perky

[fujiyama]

80. What trial?

I don't foresee any accountability whatsoever. There is little indication anyone will be prosecuted.

And I'm tired of hearing about how everything we can do now will potentially destabilize Pakistan. That place is far beyond anything we can do now.

Now, I'm not going to completely flip out and say that Obama is acting like Bush, because there is no reason for him to cover for Bush (he's already revealed the memos for example and took a lot for it), and I think he's sincerely worried about possibly endangering troops and going against the commanders advice. Obama has done a lot to make his administration transparent and open, and it's a breath of fresh air after 8 years of Bush...

HOWEVER, I still disagree with this move. How long will we keep hearing about the photos putting soldiers lives at harm? Until ALL our overseas involvements are through? When the hell will that be? As it is, it looks like we'll be in Afghanistan for some time to come... How long will we keep buying this excuse? Indefinitely?

We need the truth to be revealed and the sooner the better. I don't think we should wait 50 years for the photos...after all, some cold war era stuff STILL hasn't been declassified. We can't be told this excuse for much longer. I really don't want to believe Obama is covering for Bush's crimes.

[endarkenment]

81. jury pool? hallucinate much?

[dionysus]

83. +1

:thumbsup:

[TankLV]

84. Get YOUR head out of YOUR ASS!!! RELEASE THE GODDAMN PHOTOS!!!

It's the TORTURE, not the PHOTOS!!!

If we DON'T release the photos, we won't even GET to a "trial" - releasing the photos will INSURE that we AT LEAST have a TRIAL and PROSECUTION for WAR CRIMES!!!

If the photos aren't released, we will all be told to "move on" and "stop dwelling in the PAST" and to "move forward"!!!

BTW - we're STILL waiting for the SECOND PART OF THE REPORT FOR THE IRAQ WAR INVESTIGATIONS to be released - you know - the one that actually ASSIGNS BLAME - that the REPUKES who CONTROLLED the investigations said WOULD BE RELEASED IN THE FUTURE because "now is not the right time", blah, blah, blah...!!!

WHERE'S THAT FUCKING REPORT?!!!

If WE don't insist on it NOW, THEY will NEVER do it!!!

[Perky]

89. Huh? How does releasing the photos insure a trial?

[Stinky The Clown]

87. What??? No cute pictures to distract us?

Isn't that how we balm the masses. Cute pictures?

Or is this a chess thing? That works, too. Its a chess move.

[pecwae]

88. Yes, of course.

Anyone who disagrees with you 'has their head up their ass'.

Why do I think there's a contingent here who would be screaming for these photos to be released (I seem to remember an outcry over the censoring of photos of returning troops caskets during the Bush years) if there was other than a Dem in the WH?

[LostinVA]

107. It's teh same fucking people on here who "screamed" for Bush to release them

Your values and opinions shouldn't change just because there's a DEm in the WH.

[jonnyblitz]

111. they are so transparent , aren't they? it's really sick and sad

that they use "concern for the troops" as their reasoning. as an ex-troop I used to despise the republicans for doing the very same thing.

[nichomachus]

90. Trial evidence? Bwahahahahahahahaaha!

:rofl:

Jesus, I'll bet you still leave teeth under your pillow too.

[Perky]

91. SO FAR THE ONLY COUNTER ARGUMENT I HAVE HEARD IS THAT THERE MAY NOT BE A TRIAL ANYWAYS

No One has taken on any of the other five points raised in my OP

Publication of these photos taints the Jury pool.
Publication of these photos gives propganda fodder to the enemy and at least in theory puts our troops at greater risk
Publication of thess photos could destabalize Pakistan even more.
Publication of these photos dominates the news cycle for weeks with very little upside
Publication of these photos establishes a rallying point for the GOP

[ShortnFiery]

106. These torturers are still "out there" and when they resurface it may be US who lose

our Civil Liberties.

This INACTION will come back to bite us in the ass. The next GOP Presidency will morph our beloved country into a Police State.

Congrats. We're so comfortable now, but these EVIL LEADERS will now grow stronger and resurface in the future.

THIS IS OUR FUTURE because we now fail to act:

[Perky]

117. wow,,,

Do you really... I mean honestly believe that, because the President was persuaded not to relase some photos (for a variety of reasons)of poor treatment of people captured overseas) that it mwans we are headed for a police state here?

Reallly? SHow me the logival progression that gets us THERE. SHow me how the NEOCONs get restored to power. How me how that is specifically linked to a decision not to release some photos,

[bluedawg12]

110. The President should instruct the DOJ to investigate and bring them to trial.

These pictures would be a reason for the President to call for a trial and instruct the DOJ to pursue bringing those involved to justice.

There is a 14-year-old federal law that allows the United States to bring charges against a person accused of torture abroad if the accused is in the United States or is an American citizen (18 USC § 2340A).

[LanternWaste]

93. reveals a Truth.

"Publication of these photos..."

...reveals a Truth.

And a relevant truth, regardless for whom it's inconvenient, should be a high priority for us all.

And truthfully, I'd rather the truth come out with negative consequences than to keep it secreted away for political reasons even should it ultimately have positive consequences for a political party.

[livefreest]

94. i think this is the best argument i've heard so far in support of not publishing these pics. however

-don't we have trials in America while pictures of the crime were in newspapers for months?
-how sure are you that keeping these pics secret does not undercut Pres Obama's message of respect to the Islamic world?
-wouldn't those pics on TV and on newspapers actually show more Americans that torture is not the way to go for our security?
- in which way you see Pakistan getting more unstable? can you develop some scenario? because right now civil populations are displaced, there is direct confrontation between the army and the Talibans...how can it be more unstable?
-is the use of classified documents for the benefit of the Party you and I favor the right thing to do?

[sofa king]

95. If there was a systematic campaign of murder and kidnapping to go with the torture?

Would it compare to the Holocaust then, in callousness and amorality, if not size?

Because there was.

[rocktivity]

96. Too Late

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5655234

Thom Hartman...(has) reported...he was looking at photos that Obama didn't want you to see. Here they are...

Obama says he'll show the photos, changes his mind at the least minute, and then they get "leaked," by an Australian paper? He probably "arranged" it. He's rope-a-doped us once again--but once again, I'm not complaining. Your move, Mr. Cheney.

:bounce:
rocktivity

[polichick]

98. I might believe you if the president didn't make a point of saying that...

...this was the work of a few people, who have already been brought to justice.

[mzmolly]

100. You mean, ultimate justice trumps morbid curiosity?

Imagine that...

Frankly, I think the courts ruled properly, and I think the administration is acting accordingly as well. We're witnessing democracy in action.

[merkins]

101. Not buying your hyperbole

Glenn Greenwald:

'There are many bizarre aspects to Obama's decision to try to suppress evidence of America's detainee abuse, beginning with the newfound willingness of so many people to say: "We want our leaders to suppress information that reflects poorly on what our government does." One would think that it would be impossible to train a citizenry to be grateful to political officials for concealing evidence of government wrongdoing, or to accept the idea that evidence that reflects poorly on the conduct of political leaders should, for that reason alone, be covered-up: "Obama and his military commanders decide when it's best that we're kept in the dark, and I'm thankful when they keep from me things that reflect poorly on my government because I trust them to decide what I should and should not know." It's the fantasy of every political leader to have a citizenry willing to think that way ("I know it's totally unrealistic, but wouldn't it be great if we could actually convince people that it's for their own good when we cover-up evidence of government crimes?").'

_______________________

So Perky I want you to go read this his fullentry on this matter and all the related links to get a grasp of just how far off you have strayed from the path:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/14/afghanistan/

[Perky]

103. Greenwals starts with a faulty assumption that the "evidence:" is being "supressed,"

I think the argument is specius. No one is denying that torture occured, No one (in this administration) is detroying the evidecne The public does have thr right to see the the evidence. I am just suggesting hyperbolically that the proper method for these photos to be seen by the public is in the context of a trial (whether Bench or Jury). Absen the AG saying that there is no intent to prosecute, there is a need to let justice run its Proper Course.


I generally thinkthat the demand to see th photos now, however popular or even how ever well intended, actually undercuts the ability to have a trial substantially, If what we want is Justice, then we can not confuse it ith public outcry let alone mob rule.

No on the other hand, if AG Holder decided not to prosecute, than justice can not be served, but the desire for the glee, of seeing Cheney, being held up to public scorn. is proably also short sighted for all the other reason in the OP.


Look I am not a patient guy. I want trials. I want Cheney to do time. The soooner the better. But I also think the arguemntmade by Ordanare and the wise counsel of those surrounding Obama are all valid.

If Obam was actually stonewalling or supressing. than he never would have released the memos. THare are vaild legal, political and geopolitical reasons to withhold he picture from public scrutiny when the initial and proper venue is a judge and Jury rahter than an angry mob/... even when the anger is utterly justified.

[ChiciB1]

102. Fair Trial?? What A Joke... I WANT My Transparency & To Find Out About

the whole stinking MESS!! This "could" be something that brings TRUTH back to America and let the chips fall where they may!!

FAIR TRIAL --- MY ASS!! Doesn't exist much these days, why start now???

[flyarm]

104. Glen Greenwald's question to people defending Obama's position on torture photos

Glen Greenwald's question to people defending Obama's position on torture photos http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/13/photo ...

"...(5) For all of you defend-Obama-at-all-cost cheerleaders who are about to descend into my comment section and other online venues to explain how Obama did the right thing because of National Security, I have this question: if you actually want to argue that concealing these photographs is the right thing to do, then you must have been criticizing Obama when, two weeks ago, he announced that he would release them. Otherwise, it's pretty clear that you don't have any actual beliefs other than: "I support what Obama does because it's Obama who does it." So for those arguing today that concealing these photographs is the right thing to do: were you criticizing Obama two weeks ago for announcing he would release these photographs?"


...As Judge Hellerstein wrote in rejecting the Bush argument -- now the Obama argument -- that disclosure would jeopradize the troops: "the freedoms that we champion are as important to our success in Iraq and Afghanistan as the guns and missiles with which our troops are armed."

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

edit to ask the op: Hey OP why do you hate our constitution and our nation that was predicated on the rule of law? Why do you applaud Obama breaking our laws????????? Or anyone for that matter? Why are you so happy Obama is shitting on his oath of office to protect and defend the constitution and yet you cheer him destroying constitutional law?

Obama is my employee i expect him to follow our laws and the laws of our courts..no exception..no one is above the law ..and as a "we the people"..i have the right to hold Obama or anyone in my government accountable..you don't like that..well then i think you are in the wrong damn country.

Torture is against the law of the land in the USA..no exceptions..no coverup allowed..even a coverup is illegal!!

[redqueen]

105. I originally wanted them released.

I thought it would help to shut conservatives up who were defending torture.

However now I think that there may be a valid reason to withhold them, so I'm not up in arms about it.

[bluedawg12]

109. Where's the fair trial? The information is out there about the pics.

This can't be swept under the rug. Why doesn't this lead the President to call for an official investigation?

[Cha]

113. Maybe 'cause he's lining

up his ducks?

[bluedawg12]

115. Maybe. The decision not to release the pictures would have been a good time

to announce an investigation.

[IndianaGreen]

114. Your arguments would carry weight had Obama appointed a special prosecutor

as it is, there is no evidence that the Obama Administration is planning to impanel a grand jury, much less prosecute anyone.

[bluedawg12]

116. This was exactly the time to announce investigation into torture.

There is no shortage of information about concerns about torture and abuse.