I just unsubscibed from Organizing for America, the Obama web site.

[John Q. Citizen]

They ask for a reason if you want to give one.

I did. I said I was tired of getting appeals for money to fight for health care when single payer was preemptively barred from the national debate.

Shame that's the only way to get heard.

[leftstreet]

1. Good for you

:thumbsup:

They won't care, but if enough people respond in that manner at least it will annoy them.

[John Q. Citizen]

30. If enough responded like that they would wonder, What's going on?

[waiting for hope]

107. I did it a week or so back - this one was from the

DNC:

waiting for hope:

Monday morning, an unlikely gathering of health care industry and union leaders emerged from the White House, announcing a historic agreement to lower medical costs and save the average family up to $2,500. This kind of broad coalition would have been unthinkable in the past, when the old politics of division and short-term self interest held sway. But this is a new day.

Yesterday afternoon, President Obama announced the three bedrock principles that any comprehensive health care reform must achieve: (1) reduce costs, (2) guarantee choice, and (3) ensure all Americans have quality, affordable health care. And he set a hard goal for getting it done by the end of this year.

For those determined to oppose reform, the President's announcement means lobbyists are already scrambling across D.C. For the rest of us, it means there's no time to lose. As we speak, Congress is negotiating the details for health care reform, so the first step is showing where the American people stand.

Please click below to sign a declaration of support urging Congress to follow President Obama's three core principles for health care reform -- and to enact them before the end of this year:



(The more signatures we have, the more powerful our message will be, so please add your name and then forward this note on to family and friends.)

The health care crisis is not new, but it's getting worse. For decades, real health care reform has been blocked by special interest lobbying and political point-scoring. We simply cannot go any further down this dangerous road of delay and denial. But we don't have to.

Yesterday's agreement marks only the beginning of the broad coalition we need. The most important reason this round of health care reform will be different is you. Last fall millions of regular people came together and did the impossible. Now, we've got to roll up our sleeves, join hands with those new to our movement, and do it again.

Congress is already hammering out the details of the health care package, and it could still go any number of ways. Our representatives need to understand that when the President lays out these three bedrock principles, Americans of every stripe are standing with him. Yesterday's diverse gathering was a powerful start -- and now it's up to us.

It's time to stand up. Please sign the declaration of support today:

http://my.barackobama.com/OrganizingforHealthcare

Reducing costs, guaranteeing choice, and ensuring care for all are ambitious goals, but they are nothing less than what the American people deserve. And passing real health care reform this year is nothing less than what the American people need.

Thank you,

Mitch

Mitch Stewart
Director
Organizing for America

My reponse: I can't believe I just got an email that is asking for my support on an issue that has had good people arrested and silenced because they would like their opinion on Single Payer Health Insurance heard. This is not the party I signed up for over 18 years ago - I don't recognize it anymore.


Good for you - maybe there are many more that have taken this course. K&R!

[FrenchieCat]

2. Good for you!

Guess I'll give them a little more.
Since I pay $1,200 per month for a family of 4, with $75.00 co pay,
and I'm not getting any younger, I'm not willing to make the perfect the enemy of the not so perfect.

[John Q. Citizen]

14. i knew you would pick up the slack. Baucus will thank you. He got 1.8 million form the industry last

year to sucker people like you.

1.8 million. And you think the health care industrial complex gives him that money to lower your costs.

PT Barnum said it many years ago, and it's still just as true today.

[FrenchieCat]

22. Baucus is a different horse, far as I'm concerned......

but I guess you can lump them all together if it makes it easier for you
to withhold your support.

I also Joined Howard Dean's group pushing for a public option.
But of course, that's not what you want either.

Try not calling me a sucker. I don't fucking appreciate it.
Just because you decide to post this OP, and I dared respond,
doesn't make you the boss of me.

[John Q. Citizen]

25. Who is writing the legislation? It ain't Obama, and he wants it like that.

It's so he won't get blamed when you figure it out.

Dean is alright, but he already knows the 60% of Americans who want a single payer plan have been kicked under the bus and have zero to say about what gets passed. He wants to be player. I'm just a citizen. I don't count, except when they want my contribution. Then I really really count and it's absolutely important that I get in the game and fight the boogy man Repos who account for 25 % of the population and control absolutely nothing, just like me. Except that I'm with the 60% of the population who control absolutely nothing.

You are the boss of you and if you want to throw your money away, who am I to complain?

[joeybee12]

105. You're right...Obama wants to keep his fingerprints off as much as possible...

...that's obviously the strategy Rahm et al have decided will work...maybe for a while, but the s**t is going to hit the fan big time on this one.

[John Q. Citizen]

109. Well if you look at Donna Smith's piece in common dreams yesterday and

Robert Reich's piece at TPM today what strikes me is how similar their information is about what's going on with the legislation, and it's looking bad, for Americans.

Donna is head of the Calif Nurses Asso. and was in "Sicko!" and Reich was a Clinton admin insider. She's an activist and he's now a pundit. But while there backgrounds are diverse, there analysis is very close.

If what they are saying is true (and it seems it might be since they both agree) Obama has backed off anything close to reform and may be willing to settle for the appearance of reform. In that case he might be smart to be running away. On the other hand, I don't know if he can just walk away from this. He may be forced to jump into the thick of it and provide some leadership, if he can stomach the contentiousness.


http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/05/17-0

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/robert_reich/2009/05/the-health-care-cave-in.php

[Phx_Dem]

78. Some of us want a choice in our health care, that doesn't make us suckers.

I actually like my health care. I've had it for more years than I can remember. I have two issues which require daily medications and I have never encounted a single problem with my healthcare provider. The only problem for me is the cost is too high. This doesn't mean I love the health care industry, and I may very well CHOOSE to switch to a public option, if one is offered, but I would like to make that choice for myself thankyouverymuch.

Your "sucker" response is such a thoughtful way to add to the diaglogue.

:sarcasm:

[John Q. Citizen]

90. Why would the cost be too high? If you lived any where else in the world it wouldn't be.

Have you ever thought about why the cost is too high?

And if you have, what is your conclusion?

I've noticed that Canadians have far far more choices in their health care than do Americans. They can move anywhere in Canada and go to any care provider they choose. The cost is very reasonable compared to us.

my aunt had very good insurance here, CA State system, but she could only retire to a limited number of places because otherwise she would have been miles away from where her insurance company would let her see a doctor.

Her costs weren't too high, but her options were terribly limited.

I've thought about why that is, and the conclusion I camr to is that private health insurance's main motivation is to produce a profit for their share holders. They could care less if my Aunt wanted to move to a small town in Indiana. They weren't in business so my aunt could get care where she wanted to. They were in business to make money.

[Phx_Dem]

96. Well I don't live anywhere else, I live here. And my conclusion

was to support the President's health reform plan as outlined in his primary campaign, and the same one he currently advocates.

And if single-payer is so wonderful, why do 92% of the French carry supplemental insurance? Same goes for many seniors on Medicare who pay for supplemental coverage from private insurance companies. Seniors who can afford to pay for supplement coverage, do so. And there's a reason.

[John Q. Citizen]

98. The President has said repeatedly that a single payer would be the best if starting from scratch.

What that means is that politically, a single payer would be hard to pass and implement because we already have a giant mess of interests who are going to attempt to keep the gravy train running.

But why would he say that it would be the best plan? (If it wasn't politically so difficult?)

By that he means it would be the best at controlling costs, and delivering high quality care to everyone regardless where they live or work or retire. Because it's the best at controling costs, it means that we get more health care for every health care dollar spent.


Do you think Obama was lying? I don't. I agree with him completely.

Yes, single payer would be the best system, were it politically feasible right now. Obama doesn't think it's politically feasible.

Politically, single payer is tough because the insurance industry, the drug companies, the hospitals, the equipment manufacturers would fight tooth and nail any attempt to cut into their good thing. Some people who have private insurance are afraid that Obama is lying when he says it (single payer) would be the best system. They see it as a bird in hand is worth two in the bush, so that's also a political problem. How do you convince people who have been lied to repeatedly by private insurance companies?

however in terms of choice of doctor, choice of location, choice of hospital and in terms of quality of care, single payer beats what we have, or what we may get hands down,. That's why people in other countries get better quality with more choice than we do, and will continue to, even if we pass the second best system Obama is advocating because it is at least politically feasible.

The US already has the largest single payer health care system in the world. It's called the VA. We don't throw our vets into the capitalist system because. well we just saw the fall of capitalism. What would happen to vets if their insurance company just said , sorry, call us in a year? We are in bankruptcy right now. No we demand the best care for our vets and that's why they get a single payer system. Also their care tends to be quite expensive. If we put themn in a private system we'd go broke fast. But politically, there is no opponents to the VA.

Obama is right that 10th or 15th best is far better than 30th or 40th best. So, he's working to do the best he can. But he's already told us repeatedly that it's not going to be the very best. That would be a single payer system.

[dbmk]

127. As far as I know, the French model is not completely single payer

Its Single Payer To A Limit. It only covers a certain amount. Could be wrong - but thats my understanding of it.

[Joe Chi Minh]

129. Almost completely. A small percentage is insurance for extras, and the take-up,

I believe, is just above ninety percent, because the premiums are so low. However, the Government came down on the insurance companies (I believe its now a single company) like a ton of bricks, when they tried to cheat and exploit the public.

Wouldn't happen here or in the UK, where the business culture of the companies, indeed of business as a whole, is criminal, and the CEOs and directors, untouchable. Totally unrealistic to expect them to be reined in and stringently controlled. Remember, we fear our politicians, the French politicians fear the people.

[Doremus]

110. Looks like you might save $2,500 of your $14,400.

From a post upthread:

Monday morning, an unlikely gathering of health care industry and union leaders emerged from the White House, announcing a historic agreement to lower medical costs and save the average family up to $2,500.

We pay $1000/mo. for health insurance for the 2 of us. Our annual out-of-pocket medical expenses including premiums, co-pays and deductibles total around $15K/yr.

I wouldn't be so generous as to characterize the paltry sum of $2500 as "not so perfect," but I will refrain from voicing my actual opinion until firmer plans take shape. In the meantime, I am keeping a skeptical eye on the Congressional game of footsie that's taking place beneath the conference tables.

[BlooInBloo]

3. Coool! We have our first Goodbye Cruel Obama post!

:rofl:

[AspenRose]

8. You are so bad...

:spank:

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

51. actually its our job to send Obama a message

it wouldn't have done any good to try to send Bush one.

When Obama doesn't do what the voters ask, we have to push prod and get after him.

Hilarious as it may seem, that is what you do even when you have a "progressive" President.

If you have a neo con president, you know you are wasting your time.

[K Gardner]

106. Somehow I knew this was Bloo's handiwork before I even scrolled over to see

the poster's name. You always make me laugh, Bloo :-) :hi:

[Thrill]

4. I guess I don't understand this. Obama's plan was never single payer

And if your beef is with Single Payer not being at the table, your frustration should be with Baucus and members of the finance committee.

Its really sad to see people leave. When our real fight is making sure the public option is in there. For no other reason than its a big step towards single payer.

As Obama has said you can't switch to single payer overnight. You have to take big steps towards it

[FrenchieCat]

5. Poster obviously can afford to bolt from the table if what he wants is not there.....

I emphasize with that kind of feeling,
I just can't afford to do it....

[napoleon_in_rags]

9. Thank you! I don't understand how all these people got through the primary without noticing that.

Of the candidates, Dennis Kucinich as I recall had the single payer universal health care. I argued on behalf of Hillary's plan when it came down to those two, because I saw it as less sketchy than Obamas. Obama was never promising reform that dramatic on health care, I am actually impressed with what he's doing, despite the problems.

[slay]

11. It's not a matter of what he said, it's a matter of right and wrong.

To exclude single payer from the debate is just plain wrong no matter how he campained. Whould we accept single payer exclusion if it were Bush?

[Thrill]

12. Single Payer was at the WH forum. Its the finance comm. that excluded them

Not Obama

[vaberella]

19. Exactly. I mention in my post about the Health Summit. n/t

[John Q. Citizen]

34. Here is the picture of inclusion for you

http://www.guaranteedhealthcare.org/blog/donna-smith-sicko-patient/2009/03/17/rns-six-states-rally-single-payer-outside-white-house-heal

Single payer is included as long as it's outside the event.

That Obama sure loves to hear all ideas, as long as they are pre-approved.

[vaberella]

37. You need to see the video. Single payer was mentioned by Dems and Reps alike

throughout the entire thing. You can pick and choose what you want, but I've seen the footage.

[snowdays]

46. They were excluded at the first WH summit until the last day and you know it.

[John Q. Citizen]

29. Yes, i recall. At the last minute Conyers and Fien were included after people threatened a demonstra

tion at the white House since no single payer advocates had been invited.

They each got five minutes to speak. So the 60% of the American people who say they support a single payer solution got 10 minutes. I know you consider that inclusive.

i don't, but you do.

That's sure a seat at the table.

I'm sure you will love the bi-partisan bill that comes out, and I don't want to hear any complaints after it's a done deal. Promise? You have to love it, because it's been an extremely open and above board process and anyone who complains about it later is just a baby.

It's a glorious day for America. Change the insurance companies, and we consumers can all believe in.

[snowdays]

45. Obama is the boss!! Besides, it was only after many times asking

and finally threatening a protest outside the WH that single payer was FINALLY ALLOWED TO COME. AND THAT WAS ONLY THE DAY BEFORE.

[vaberella]

18. Actually in some respects you're wrong..

And even some people on the committee...many of the Dems are single payer advocates. Single payer is not an organized group. There are people who can represent for it, but there are already people in Congress and the Senate who stand by single payer. Secondly single payer would never succeed in any real talks moving forward---because the Senate would throw it out.

Single payer has certain characteristics that people who are stead fast single payer supports know, will not compromise.

There in lies the damn problem. Single payer says "NO" to any sort of competition by single payer advocates in the US. That won't fly over too well by independent or moderate voters and most definitely won't sell in the Senate. A good move and the RIGHT move would be for single payer advocates to compromise and push for a public option that meets a lot of the agenda and things they would want. Public option crowds out private insurance ultimately. But when single payer advocates don't know the word compromise they're worthless to any conversation.

This is exactly what O was talking about in his speech today to ND. He said that, "the gay activist and evangelical preacher could work against spread of AIDS, but their cultural division keeps them from working together and getting the main goal ahead." (paraphrased)

And this is exactly seen by single payer activists from where I'm standing. Dean is the only one who's making compromises at the same time redefining what is meant by single payer to push the public option through so some realistic change can come through.

[Bluenorthwest]

54. This gay activist has worked with evangelical preachers

to fight the spread of AIDS for over 20 years. Our cultural divisioins stopped nothing, politicians stop it. These 'cultural divisions' are largely imaginary. I was raised in evangelical and pentecostal churches and schools. I know their language. I could run a service any day, like a pro.

Just saying, it is wonderful what the President is speaking of, but sort of sad that he still does not know of the many expamles of such works that have been going on for decades. It is a bit annoying that he acts as if that has not happened, and does not happen, for reasons he can explain, when in fact it does happen, and has from the earliest days of the crisis.
In fact, the first large AIDS fundraiser I ever attened was organized by ministers and church groups, along with some GLBT groups. Thousands of people. Huge stars of gosple and pop. In unity, raising the roof and raising piles of money. I was pulled in by Ms Dionne. At that time, I think the President was a student at Occidental College.

So I'm not crazy about his characterizations. Saying people are 'kept' from work that many have been doing is just not an accurate portrayal of either all evangelical preachers, nor of 'gay activists'. I'd really like to see him point out the good stuff instead of pretending it does not exist.
The divisions he is focused on are only one part of the story, but it is the only part we ever hear.

[Uzybone]

57. Desperately searching for something to argue about

that is another thing that mature people need to leave behind. Yes we know there are some gay activists who work with evangelicals on a community level, I'm sure the Community Organizer in Chief knows this as well. The public at large does not know that, because their leaders (both the politicians and the evangelical leaders) like to focus on the divisions.

[Bluenorthwest]

58. Not arguing at all

Simply saying exactly what you are saying, politicians focus on divisions, even when there are shining examples of unity, long standing examples. I'd like the public at large not to be misinformed. I am not misinforming them. Politicians are, for their own goals and agendas. It has been thus for over 20 years now.

HIV AIDS is the number one killer of African American women aged 24-35. And there are ministers in the community who have been trying to change that fact for decades, along with allies from the gay community. That change is hard to make while politicians benefit by pretending that no one has even attempted that change. If the politicians would all speak truth, things would be better. I can name far more clergy who are in support than politicians. The gay folk and the church folk are not the main source of confusion. That would be the politicians.
So the politicians should speak truth on matters that are indeed life and death. Not partial truth, the whole truth. And if they don't bother, I'll be glad to fill in the details.

[livefreest]

35. if it were Bush then he would be looking how to PRIVATIZE YOU. YES YOU THE PERSON

[Jennicut]

60. Yup. Single payer was never in Obama's agenda.

We can argue which one is better but he really never promised it to begin with. Still the anger at him is there.
Maybe single payer is a better plan. I don't know. We do need an honest debate about it.

[Raineyb]

97. People knew that Obama was not for single payer but that's a far cry from

deliberately keeping it off the bloody table while letting the Insurance companies right the bill. But it's ridiculous to think that a serious discussion is going on when an option that is supported by a large number of people is just preemptively taken off table.

[vaberella]

15. Stead-fast Single payer advocates are like extremists of any ideology.

They see one route and one route only. You're right the fight is to get the public option and make sure the Repubs don't smash that to smitherins or liquify it to oblivion. Public option leads to single payer eventually and that's what I'm pushing for because that will get passed. Single payer wouldn't even have a leg to stand on in the Senate.

[John Q. Citizen]

28. Fight? What about control of both houses don't you understand?

I swear, are the American public so lame they can't remember back 5 years ago when the Repos threatened the nuclear option and the Dems quit filibustering everything?

Are you unable to comprehend that that fight is a fake device so you are so wrapped up in it you won't even step back and question anything but just blindly accept whatever they tell you?

Baucus is the guy who crossed the aisle to pass the bush medicare drug bill. It means we subsidize private companies and the cost of drugs goes up. It outlawed importing cheaper drugs from Mexico and Canada. It outlawed negotiating drug prices. You forgot that already?

That's what Baucus votes for. And that's what he's doing now. It's not that difficult.

sorry, I'm just flabbergasted at what people can't remember and they can't see happening. But good luck. Keep fighting.

When the bill is passed and you finally figure out what it does, don't blame me , OK?

[vaberella]

31. What are you talking about?

I'm talking about Obama's plan. I'm not talking about Baucus or any of the others, it's idiots like him who will squash the efforts of the public option. The public option just by its inception will inevitably destroy private insurance. Especially if it's opened to everyone. If people like Baucus and the rest of them find ways (like Schumer) to twist the public option it will be a pure disaster. Obama's plan is the correct plan and results in a method similar to universal health care---everyone agrees to that (well excluding single payer). But single payer and universal are not 100% the same thing. So there's that. In any event, I'm going with what might pass..public option will. I just want to make sure, it passes the way O wants it to pass, which is the best for the American people, and not the way idiots like Bayh, Baucus, and Repubs want.

[John Q. Citizen]

33. Obama isn't introducing legislation. you didn't know that? There is no Obama bill.

You don't follow this stuff very close. do you?

The White House doesn't have a bill written and they aren't introducing one.

So you are living in a dream world, but dream on little dreamer, dream on.


No, the plan is that Baucus is writing a bill and Kennedy is writing a bill, and they are going to be very similar. See all health care legislation in the Senate has to go through the finance committee (Baucus is the chair) and through the health committee (Kennedy is the chair)

So Obama is just a cheer leader in this. He doesn't have his own bill, and he isn't planning on having one.

Sorry to have to break it too you.

[vaberella]

36. Sorry to tell you, you're not breaking anything to me.

He has a framework---and the plan for a public option must remain as such and not be bastardized to appease Repubs. Along with Baucus, Schumer is also working on a bill. From what I gathered from Dean...Baucus' may not be that great and Schumer from the way others are talking is not good at all. There needs to be more people writing and proposing a bill, but O has a framework in mind of what he's looking for. In any event, there's nothing that single payer can bring to the table based on what I heard coming from their mouths. They want one thing and one thing only...there's no compromise and if there is no compromise what do they want to say. The health summit was much better and there are some great Dems who will compromise but who activated for single payer...I want to hear what they have to say.

If single payer was sincere, in my estimation, they would be standing by to make sure that, if there is a public option it meets much of the framework they would want to see in single payer. That being said, I want to see the options...

[snowdays]

47. It is SHAMEFUL that the committee and WH have done this

to the American people--not even willing to listen. I expected more from Obama.

[John Q. Citizen]

55. Bernie Sanders has a bill introduced already. It follows the Wellstone bill

of a number of years back

It puts in the framework so that states could institute thier own single payer system.

I'm sure part of the bribe for private insurance will be to preclude any possibluity of a single payer system for our life times.

We will be told if we want to control costs we will have subsidize private insurance companies with tax dollars and that the more we subsidize them the faster they will disappear. And people will believe that because they already have.

My bet is we end up with a two tiered medical system, one for the well off and another for the rest of us.

Sorry if I sound cynical, but taking the only thing off the table that the insurance industry is really afraid of and that they would make real concessions to prevent happening makes no sense to me unless the plan is to institutionalize the insurance industry as the third rail of American politics for the next four or five generations.

[mkultra]

67. so you mean the bills are originating in congress? who would imagine.

[John Q. Citizen]

101. Bill and Hillary Clinton, for two. They wrote a bill, remember?

[sojourner]

73. what, exactly, besides "withdrawing support" are you doing about it? we are citizens, and must take

affirmative, civil, rational action to make our voices heard. and we've been warned by this president that he wants us to "make him do it" -- and "make Congress do it".

[John Q. Citizen]

102. I agree. I'm organizing here in Montana. I know a lot of the PO (Public Option) people and

I'm also working with Montanans for Single Payer

We are doing lots of stuff, but it's never enough it seems.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

50. single payer isn't extreme, its the norm. Paying middlemen fat cat CEOs is extremely gullible

And continuing the private insurance scam means that we will ration out services
so that CEOs can continue to get their multi million $ bonuses.

Many developed nations have single payer.

If we go for bailing out the insurance cos, we will have obscenely high costs.

The aberration is that we allow private corporations to profit by denying us a basic human right.

[vaberella]

70. You wish it was the norm.

As a matter of fact when it comes to the American people, they're back and forth on the decision for single payer. In any event, I'm definitely for universal coverage and I have my issues with single payer.

I don't deny that the private system is a mess. This is why I support the public option, if it maintains a smart framework that will lead to a universal system. Any public option will crowd-out private usage eventually-----no matter what it will do that because of businesses. This is not supposing, it will be in the benefit of businesses to not pay for private insurance.

You think it's bailing out without evidence. There's nothing you say that proves that would be the cae with a public option if the single payer advocates stood by it and fought along side the public option people to make sure the language is in top form and that we meet the demand.

If you can't do that, then we won't win the war. Single payer only goes so far and is weak at best. I do love how single payers say this or that; but in actuality the American people one minute are there with it, but with a few nice commercials give up.

[John Q. Citizen]

76. The VA is the largest single payer system in the world. FDIC is single payer insurance for bank

accounts, and congress just doubled the amounts covered.

Social Security is single payer retirement insurance.


I know you have your problems with them, but yes, it IS the norm.


The Republicans wanted a public/private system of retirement accounts. We Dems fought for single payer and won!

[avaistheone1]

130. Single-payer is NOT an extremist ideology. That is flame baiting.

In one form or another it is what most industrialized democratic nations provide its people.

You really know better to pose this an extremist position. Shame on you.

[John Q. Citizen]

21. Neither was mandates. But Obama promised that he would listen to all ideas without

regard to ideology. He lied.


What public option?

There is only one plan. Government subsidies for private insurance companies and mandates that you have to purchase insurance.

See, when it comes to single payer, it wasn't in his plan.

When it comes to mandates, it's Baucus' fault.

And when the insurance company whores have a seat at the table in the white House and in the Senate, but 60% of the American public don't, that's called inclusive and bi partisan.

I figured it out. By the time you do it will already be law.

And you will fight to make it so.

[FrenchieCat]

24. You are not even well informed, so it's hard to get serious about what you have posted.....

There is no health plan as of today, and that's the fact.

[John Q. Citizen]

32. i guess i don't understand, Obama's plan was never mandates. Oh well.

You will understand because you will have to subsidize private insurance companies or be fined.

But I don't understand, Obama's plan was never mandates.

Tough.

Don't complain later. OK? Thrill. If you complain after this is passed I'm calling you a cry baby who wasn't paying attention.

Is that alright? Or do you reserve the right to complain after it's too late, while criticizing me for warning you before it's a done deal?

OK.

And if we all really like the plan, I'll admit I was wrong, and the bi-partisan approach and bringing in the insurance companies and the drug companies and the rest of the health care industrial complex and excluding the 60% of American people who wanted a seat at the table was really a great idea.

OK? Deal?

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

52. Obama said EVERYONE would be at the table

not just the corporate shills who donate to candidates.

That means that Single Payer would be at the table if Obama held true.

Plus we would see it all on CSPAN.

But special interest groups are going to write the laws to maximize their profits and
no way can they have Single Payer experts testifying on CSPAN.

Because the truth is the enemy of private insurance cos.

[firedupdem]

6. As much as I would love to have single payer, I don't think it's

going to happen soon. A public option, which is what Obama promised is what I want to make sure happens.

[John Q. Citizen]

23. Mandates weren't in Obama's plan. Why would you have to fight for a public option?

The Dems control both houses and the White house.

Why don't they just tell the Repos if they filibuster then they will remove the filibuster, the nuclear option? Why do you think that is?

But than they wouldn't be able to drain your pocket book and have you running around fighting for something they could do tomorrow if they wanted to.

Obama promised inclusiveness, but that only counts if you are an insurance company or a hospital administrator.

Obama could call on congress to include the 60% of the American public who favor single payer in the discussions, but he hasn't and he won't.

Get used to it already.

[Thrill]

62. Because there are several Dems in the seat AGAINST the public option

[John Q. Citizen]

94. tHERE ARE 59 so called Dems. 8 coul;d vote with the Repos and we could still nuke the filibuster.

With Frankin 9 dems could oppose and we would still be able to do it. That 3 times a few.

[Fire1]

116. I think I could live with that too.

[Tarheel_Dem]

7. Unfortunately for you, this may not have the intended consequences. Since I

no longer donate to DU, I think I'll transfer the funds to where it's really needed. Had it not been for you, I might never have known where to direct those funds. Thank you for pointing me in that direction.
:toast:

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlooInBloo]

13. (shrug) I notice that Tarheel_Dem has a star. What's next on your whine list?

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[John Q. Citizen]

26. I was jsut happy I got to give Obama some input. Give like there's no tommorrow if you want.

here's a test you can try.

Give Obama 100 dollars right now.


Then in a week or two give 200 dollars. And see what the difference is.

Then share with us the results.

[Tarheel_Dem]

63. Why thanks for your permission. I'll do just that, because JQC told me to.

:rofl:

[John Q. Citizen]

103. Well alrighty then!

[Occam Bandage]

16. Obama was never for single-payer, so, um, grats on figuring out his position a year or so late. nt

[vaberella]

20. Logic is their kryptonite....you're hurting them. n/t

[iamthebandfanman]

68. hear hear! shame on all u du'ers who demand things

from our great president!

shame! shame on all of you for expecting the president to make decisions that are best for the majority of the american people! you should never expect anything from anybody unless they specifically say they will do it up front without any pressure!

shame on you and your families!



i mean seriously, who REALLY has the messed up logic here?

*rolls eyes*

[John Q. Citizen]

27. Neither were mandates. You think he's going to veto Baucus' bill?

:rofl:

[FrenchieCat]

38. I don't think Baucus bill is going to pass as is. Ted Kennedy will make sure of that.

Then, there's the house.

House Health Plan to Include Government-Run Option

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said the House this year will consider health-care legislation including an option for a government-run program that would compete with insurers.

“This is a big agenda, and I believe it should have a public option in it for it to be really substantial,” Pelosi told reporters at her weekly news conference in the U.S. Capitol.

~
Pelosi said the Democratic-controlled House will be “aggressive” in its approach to a health-care overhaul, which is a centerpiece of Obama’s agenda. She said a government role in health care will help U.S. companies be more competitive.

“This is not only about the health of individuals in our country, which will be justification enough,” said Pelosi, a California Democrat. “It’s about the competitiveness of our businesses to make them globally competitive because they are competing with companies and countries where the federal government -- their governments -- pay for health care. They don’t have to bear those health care costs.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=axI6NVjq8cfI&refer=worldwide

---------------------

Baucus, Pelosi clash on health care

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says she's still committed to using a procedural trick to fast-track health care reforms this year — despite opposition from Sen. Max Baucus, the powerful chairman of the Senate Finance Committee.

"I believe it's absolutely essential that we come out of this year with a substantial health care reform," Pelosi said during her weekly press conference. "I believe that is best served by having reconciliation in the package."
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0309/20525.html

[asphalt.jungle]

48. they want health care done by the end of the year, not May

so while you should pay attention to what bills and amendments are proposed, you shouldn't assume that it's what will be on the president's desk.

[John Q. Citizen]

49. I'm assuming most people won't know or understand what's on the presidents desk.

Since most people have no access to what's going on, unless they represent health insurance companies, hospital associations, equipment manufacturers or drug companies.

And the bottom line will be if it's change those groups can believe in.

[paulk]

56. so we should all stop advocating for it, right?

[Occam Bandage]

64. No. But if Obama's failure to support single-payer was his reason for unsubscribing,

why did he ever subscribe?

[John Q. Citizen]

69. I'm sure you subscribed because you favor subsidizing private insurance companies with tax dollars

Since that was his position from the start.

Right?

And because you oppose gay marriage but you are fine with civil unions.

Am I right or what?

[Occam Bandage]

71. I never subscribed, or that is to say, I unsubscribed each time they signed me up.

I don't like getting junk mail asking me for money. If I want to donate I'll donate.

It's strange how you mention "his position from the start." He's moving leftward considerably on health care; if he manages to guide a public option through the Senate (as I believe he will), his health-care reform package will end up being to the left of even John Edwards', to say nothing of Hillary Clinton's. Given that he started with the least liberal health-care plan of the three, that's saying something: the momentum is on our side, making your decision to quit because he wasn't supporting the particular plan you support even stranger. If "supports a center-left health-care plan" is cause for your unsubscription, I have to wonder why you didn't unsubscribe when he supported a center-right health-care plan.

Did you only now decide to care about single-payer health care? That would mean you only follow the marching orders of the blogosphere.

[John Q. Citizen]

77. Well if you don't support him enough to subscibe then that's your business.

[Occam Bandage]

79. I don't consider it support. Apparently you do.

Making it very strange that you would choose to unsubscribe now that he's pushing a center-left instead of a robust-left reform package, while you would remain a subscriber when he was pushing a center-right reform package. Did you only now start paying attention to healthcare? I figured someone like you would stay more informed than that.

[John Q. Citizen]

80. I took Betsy Myers and her boss at their word. It wasn't that good. So I adapted.

Wish me luck.

[Occam Bandage]

82. It looks like you misintrepreted their word.

"We'll be open to suggestions" is not "we will do exactly what you, John Q. Citizen, personally suggest." They have indeed significantly altered their plan since the campaign, given that it now includes a public option whereas it did not previously, meaning they are clearly listening to suggestions for liberal reform.

They never, ever suggested that they would go through with cutting out all private insurance companies. I'm sorry you convinced yourself that they did.

[John Q. Citizen]

84. I had a long private talk with Betsy. I don't recall you being there. So don't tell me what was

discussed.

Your name didn't come up.

Sorry.

[Occam Bandage]

91. I'm just taking you at your word on what was said, from your post on the matter.

If she made other promises you didn't feel like relating at the time, I suppose that's another matter.

[iamthebandfanman]

66. Oh gosh well that settles it! how dare we demand something

from our president!
shame on the american people!
shame on DU!

expecting the president to do whats best for the american people, pishaw, a shame on all of you.

[Occam Bandage]

72. Advocate for single-payer all you like.

I simply think that unsubscribing now as a result of a position he adopted over a year ago is a silly way of advocating. It would be like me scolding a dog for shitting on the carpet a year ago.

[John Q. Citizen]

81. It would be like you posting to this thread a day later.

[Occam Bandage]

83. So if the analogy holds,

that would mean that you unsubscribed now because you only now learned of Obama's health-care plan.

:shrug:

[Raine]

39. Self-delete nt

[Kahuna]

40. Obama preempted single payer during his campaign. I thought

everybody heard that. :shrug:

[Connie_Corleone]

41. Selective memory I guess.

[John Q. Citizen]

42. That's what you say. I just preempted Obama's appeals for money to fight to subsidize

private insurance companies from coming into my computer.

And I feel good!

:hi:

[glitch]

111. How can we "make him do it" if he doesn't listen to options that he didn't endorse during his

campaign?

This actually goes deeper than quips on a forum, it has real-life consequences and deserves your attention.

[Time for change]

117. He campaigned on the right of every American to receive the health care they need, with

substantial assistance from the federal government, as in Medicare. Otherwise known as "the public option".

Then, after talking with the RW Republican Senators and the insurance industry, he's having second thoughts about that, if it's not off the table altogether.

http://www.slate.com/id/2213177/

[wyldwolf]

43. Since I'm already subscribed, I had my wife subscribe to offset your cancellation

[John Q. Citizen]

44. Good. Have her send money to fight to send tax dollars to private insurance companies!

Now! The more tax money we send to the private insurance companies the better!

You know you want to.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

53. John Q, hang in there - most people don't know anything but what MSM tells them

and we have to teach people that private insurance is not the norm, that
it is too expensive and it reduces care.

Folks in the US are ignorant, but they are taught from day 1 that the US is best at everything,
so when our govt screws us over, we are brainwashed already to accept it.

Folks are ignorant of what goes on outside of our countries boundaries.

They still think we have the healthiest economy, we have the best democracy, we have the most moral govt, business is good, wars are ok as long as we have a good excuse, and private insurance is good for us.

BLEH.

But hang in there. We will bust through the ignorance eventually.

Too bad Obama is perpetuating the ignorance. But we have to push him, send him a message,
which is what you did.

I didn't quit his group, but I've repllied to the begger emails twice now with Single Payer on the Table First in subject line.
'

[John Q. Citizen]

61. Thanks for your kind words of support. I didn't ask or expect anyone else to unsubscribe.

I did it because I got pissed being asked to fight to subsidize private insurance companies. Now I no longer receive these requests, and I'm good with that.

I'm not mad at anyone who doesn't support single payer. And I never ever expected Obama to fight to pass single payer. He's an insurance company, drug company, hospital association, and equipment manufacturer lover, not a fighter.

I'm mad that Obama lied about inclusiveness. He's about as inclusive as bush was. Obama includes everyone who wants to do it his way, and excludes the rest of us.

There is no real health care debate. The debate is how much do we bribe the health care industrial complex with and how little do we ask in return.

That's the whole extent of it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. Good for you

I quit a couple months ago when he sent troops into Afghanistan.

[John Q. Citizen]

65. It took me a while to figure it out.

But I finally did.

[Occam Bandage]

75. Well, reading policy statements can be hard.

You just figured out his health-care plan, and p2blk just figured out his foreign policy. Y'all could have saved yourself a lot o' figuring if you had just read his website around this time last year.

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. Nice try

I knew his foreign policy stance when I voted for him. And I have continued to oppose war on Iraq or Afghanistan. When Obama's policy became a reality, I dropped off of the organizing email list.

You can blow this out of proportion all you want. The fact is I am anti war regardless of who is in the WH. I don't do party over country as some DUers do.

[Occam Bandage]

92. I suppose it's not unreasonable to hold out the hope that he was lying,

and only unsubscribe when you find out he was telling the truth.

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. Huh?

When did I ever imply he was lying?

[O is 44]

88. He stated he was sending

more troops to Afghanistan during the campaign. He made it quite clear that he we took our eye off Afghanistan I think many people who are upset now did not pay attention to what he was saying during his 2-year campaign for the Presidency.

[proud2BlibKansan]

99. I know that; I still voted for him

He was clearly the lesser of two evils on this war issue.

[Phx_Dem]

74. I'll increase my contribution to help make up the difference.

[RetroLounge]

119. Yeah, sure you will...

RL

[berni_mccoy]

85. "Shame that's the only way to get heard." -- Shame you feel that way.

[berni_mccoy]

86. "Shame that's the only way to get heard." -- Shame you feel that way.

[Vidar]

89. Good for you.

[polichick]

93. I'm with you - done working for Obama until he remembers who he works for...

Single-payer advocates aren't at the healthcare reform table, but "religious leaders and global warming skeptics" are at the table for energy reform (as per NPR this morning)???

Same ol' shit we worked so hard to change.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

95. I quit when I suddenly realized they were supporting a black muslin abortionist.

:crazy:

[noiretextatique]

104. funny

that your thread attracted a slew of tb's. i support you right to spend your money however you choose. i don't think it's makes you a whiner or anything else, and i don't understand the hostility and defensiveness. single payer SHOULD be on the table for debate.

[John Q. Citizen]

108. I know. It's like people are so defensive. i was really surprised at some of the responses.

[glitch]

112. I'm not. As Obama keeps tacking right in act and policy there will be more criticism

So expect a lot more upset at any criticism from his biggest fans. My bet is it will get worse before it gets better.

Not letting single payer to the table with the same respect as the insurance lobbyists was a mistake, it telegraphed the intended result and presented a rather blatant appearance of unfairness.

The snarkish repression from the fans and the very minor concessions to the center that Obama has made will have to be bolstered with something much more significant, fairly soon. Or he will find both his flanks attacked, from the right because they have nothing else to do for the next four years, and from the left because apparently, "make me do it" means we will not be seated at the table without open confrontation.
:wtf:

[dreamnightwind]

113. petty

A lot of petty people on here that seem to enjoy rubbing things in the faces of those who still try to get real reform through this broken government.

Yes, we know it's broken. Yes, we know Obama didn't promise single-payer (he was also opposed to Hillary's mandated universal buy-in). And we know that, even though he positioned himself as the anti-war candidate, he also said it would take awhile to get out of Iraq carefully and responsibly, and he would re-deploy some of the Iraq forces to take the fight to the TallyBan.

Why that means we're supposed to just surrender to those positions is beside me. I'd rather that people here would get behind those of us who aren't willing to take whatever crumbs the corporations want to let fall from their piggy mouths, and help us do what is right for this country and its citizens.

One more thing: the reason Obama has moved to favor universal coverage that MUST be purchased by all citizens is that the insurance companies made that a condition of accepting people they consider high-risk.

Me? I support single-payer, though it's not the "single" part I'm really advocating, it's the not-for-profit part. There are many ways to do a not-for-profit system. The health corporations are the problem, simple as that. In my mind, mandatory universal through private insurers (no public option, or one that is crippled to allow the private insurers to compete) would be the worst possible solution, and one I will fight any way I can.

Thanks for the OP, I felt the same way when I received their request for money to help them in a fight I don't support.

[John Q. Citizen]

115. there are a few petty people but there are also people who honestly have a hard time

discussing Obama without becoming defensive for Obama, not because they are petty but because they are, well almost in love.

I was talking with a friend a few weeks back and we were both commenting on how refreshing it is to have a President who is intelligent, analytical and who actual has done some symbolic things I've never seen a president do. I forget the exact thing we were talking about, but another example would be how he said at his swearing in ceremony that we all need to work together, Christians, Muslims Jews and non-believers. That was amazing, because I've never heard a President put non- believers on the same level as members of organized religion.

The phone rang and it was his sister from Portland. He told her he'd call back in a little, then he said, "You know, I can't talk to my sister about Obama, she's one of those people that if you say anything that she thinks isn't total praise about the guy she becomes unglued and acts as if you want him impeached or something. I said yeah I know what you mean.

His sister is a nice person, extremely talents and very liberal and opinionated, but i could see how what he said was probably true.

And there are people here like that. If you say, "I think Obama is going to have to speak out load and clear on the public option or it's in trouble, they act like you are attacking the guy and as if they have to defend him from your attack.

Ain't life rich?

[Binka]

118. In Case You Haven't Noticed It Is the Same 7-10 Crowd Posturing

The same fucking 7 to 10 posters screeching. They have no jobs apparently, they spend 24/7 hyperventilating on DU. They fucking make me sick and they are ruining this board.

[John Q. Citizen]

123. I'm not that concerned. I find it sociologically interesting, but I'm not particulary in

fear for DU.

You can always put them on ignore if they really bug you.

PooF! all gone :)

[dreamnightwind]

121. true, people really do love him

and I have no problem with that, a little guilty of the same myself. In many ways he's remarkable.

But it's really about the issues, not the man. I saw this mistake made in the Clinton years. Too many Dems supported their president rather than supporting their issues. As a result, he became what Greenspan called "one of our better Republican presidents". Free trade without working out the labor and pricing issues, deregulated financial markets, welfare "reform", harsher sentencing laws, expanded death penalty, etc etc, the cult of personality gets us in trouble.

He is not the one we've been waiting for, but we are. Obama knee-jerk defenders, remember that.

[John Q. Citizen]

124. Well said. After bush, Obama is a breath of fresh air, but we have to take responsibility and not

cede it to anyone.

[noiretextatique]

128. true believers

believe any criticism of obama is unfair. krugman is a perfect example. i think obama is a remarkable person, and a visionary leader. it is our duty as citizens to hold him accountable to do the best job for the people, not for corporate special interests. our expectations have been so lowered by 30 years of trickle-down voodoo economics and corporate wars that too many of us are willing to accept crumbs instead of the whole pie. i am fifty years old...i've spent most of my adult life under a republiclone regime. i want america to grow the fuck up before i check out of here.

[stillcool]

114. Phoning Congress gets you heard too...

and writing Letters to the editor, etc. I have no intention of giving money to anyone..but then I've never had much money to give. I'm not even going to threaten to withhold my vote 'next' time.

[John Q. Citizen]

125. I never threaten to withhold my vote. I just do it. I've contacted Baucus local office 15 times

this congress. They all know me :)

Testers office a few times too.

[RetroLounge]

120. How dare you?

Obama faithful will be attacking you now...

Why do you hate america?

RL

[Lord Helmet]

122. aren't you special?

[John Q. Citizen]

126. In godesses eyes we all are. Even you, my daughter.