"Prolonged Detention?"

[Brigid]

Yikes! Why is Obama making me nervous with talk like that? :scared:

Isn't this one of the reasons we hated Bush so much?

[polichick]

1. Shhhhhh - some DUers are pretending it's not the same at all.

[Cha]

16. And, it's not

the same.

[EFerrari]

36. Of course it is. It's holding someone to avoid trying them because you'll lose.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

38. If people would like multiple sources of what the REAL issues are - link

http://open.salon.com/blog/behind_blue_eyes/2009/05/22/obama_proposes_indefinite_preventive_detention_without_trial

If you go to the link above, there is an opinion, plus Rachel Maddow discussing this, plus a link to the following sources:

Other sources - Obama Is Said to Consider Preventive Detention Plan (NY Times), Obama Endorses Indefinite Detention Without Trial for Some (Washington Post), CCR: Obama Embraces Indefinite Detention, Not Meaningfully Different From Bush (TPM), Obama in Bush Clothing (Washington Post), Terror suspects face indefinite detention after Guantánamo (Financial Times), Facts and myths about Obama's preventive detention proposal (Glenn Greenwald of Salon), Is Obama creating "an American Gulag?" (Joan Walsh of Salon).
************************************************************************************************************************************

My opinion:
The most major issue of course, that detaining someone indefinitely without trial for things they have not done, is illegal and is illegal in just about every country that operates under a rule of law.

I don't want to appear to be quaint, but anyone remember the Magna Carta?
http://www.middle-ages.org.uk/magna-carta.htm
Why the Magna Carta was important to the History of America
A document signed by an English King in 1215! Why the Magna Carta was important to the history of America? The Magna Carta is considered the founding document of English liberties and hence American liberties. The influence of Magna Carta can be seen in the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Article 21 from the Declaration of Rights in the Maryland Constitution of 1776 reads:

"That no freeman ought to be taken, or imprisoned, or disseized of his freehold, liberties, or privileges, or outlawed, or exiled, or in any manner destroyed, or deprived of his life, liberty, or property, but by the judgment of his peers, or by the law of the land"


I for one am not willing to throw the Rule of Law, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights down the toilet for Obama or ANY President.

[ProSense]

2. The ACLU summed it up well

here.

[L. Coyote]

37. "Then they came for me, and it was too late."

When you are/were the innocent person locked up without rights under the law,
you have a very different perspective on this class of ideas.

It always starts like this, changes in the law creating a class of "others"
and it can easily end with extermination of a minority group. History repeats.

[napi21]

3. If I was arrested for threatening to kill every abortion Dr. I could find,

but during my interrogation, you could not prove I'd done anything wrong so far, would you think it's OK to just release me even though I promised I will continue to hunt down every Dr. I can find & kill them?

As I understand it, the prisoners in Gitmo that they're talking about have done exactly that, except substitute the abortion Dr's with Americans. In fact, their case is worse than mine beause I could be tailed 24/7 to make sure I didn't succeed, but they can't.

[Old Hank]

4. Making death threats is a felony

You would have to go to jail for that reason.

[Vincardog]

11. What proof do you have that any of them said any such thing? Innocent until proven guilty and all

that old fashioned stuff.

[napi21]

14. Old fashioned??? I'm basing my statement on everything I've heard

in the nedia, on every channel. I can't do an exact quote but the statements are that the prisoners who can't be tried for lack of proof still continue to profess aligence to Bin Laden and consistently state they will kill every American they can if given the chance.

I tried to think of some similar circumstance to prove my point. Perhapse I chose the wrong example, but I'm sure you get my point.

[Old Hank]

18. I think you contradict yourself

You say that these individuals can't be tried because of lack of proof, but that you base your comments on the proof that you've seen in the form of media articles, etc.

Is there proof or not? And if there isn't, how is it that you have access to it and can use it to reach a conclusion on the matter?

[napi21]

19. Is it proof in court? I don't know. I know I can honestly tell you that

if I were to be taken into custody by anybody and maybe not even tortured, but held in shameful conditions because that group didn't like what or who I believed in, and I was held there for YEARS, I'd sure be going back to my own group and looking for retaliation!

I have no way of knowing for sure that the reporters I've heard state what these prisoners have said are right or wrong. It makes sense to me that there would be people who really believed in what Osama was preaching would still be strong supporters and want to continue the fight against the people they consider their enemy.

I've heard tonight some opinions that we should simply return the untriable prisoners to the battlefield because that's where the soldiers are who are best able to deal with them. That's makes a bit of sense too, although I question why we would want to send additional trouble for our already overtaxes military.

My sympathies to our President. I sure don't have a good answer to this mess. I hope he & his advisors find one.

[Vincardog]

28. So your argument is that if they wern't terrorists before our illegal treatment has made them

terrorists? Because the Corporate controlled medias' talking heads have been scaring you for years with this new boogie man; it makes sense to label people "the enemy" and imprison them forever without charge trial or accountability?

[mmonk]

34. Evidence and trials to establish guilt or innocence is so

yesterday.

[Hippo_Tron]

21. You can't imprison somebody for a crime they haven't committed

[Bluenorthwest]

24. If you were arrested for such threats

The charge might be 'making terrorist threats'. Such crimes are dealt with in court all the time. Your whole premise is off the mark, because if you had said those things in interrogation and in public, you HAVE done something wrong, and illegal, and punishable. People go to jail for making such threats. Making promises to law enforcement that you will 'hunt down and kill' doctors is in itself a crime.

[Luminous Animal]

30. Of course you would be released.

No crime. No time.

[masuki bance]

5. Prolonged vs. Indefinite. Which sounds better?

[Bluenorthwest]

25. Prolonged vs Preventative

That is the real question. Or at least another question!

[Brigid]

6. If Bush had coined this term . . .

Everybody around here would be going absolutely ballistic, and we all know it. Just sayin'

[Cha]

15. Yeah, don't be comparing bush

to President Obama because it's not going to get you anywhere.

[Captain Hilts]

27. Correct. nt

[ShortnFiery]

7. ...

[Lord Helmet]

8. he said if and when

I'm hoping for the if part and not so much for the when

[Vincardog]

9. BO just announced he is not interested in the rule of law.

[SeattleGirl]

10. Bullshit

[Vincardog]

13. Bill of Rights

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Do you see his 'prolonged detention' policies following any of the above?

[grantcart]

20. Here is a list of the camps that kept 425,000 people in 'prolonged detention'

All completely constitutional.

There are certain conditions that allow the US to keep Prisoners of War in prolonged detention. If you read the President's speech he specifically refers to a few remaining detainees that might fit that description that cannot be tried because the conditions of their captivity by Bush has contaminated their prosecution.

But right now Obama is the only one who is actually trying to get the rest of the detainees tried in the US or released.



Here is the list of locations where foriegn nationals were kept under 'prolonged detention';

In the United States, at the end of World War II there were 175 Branch Camps serving 511 Area Camps containing over 425,000 prisoners of war. The camps were located all over the US but were mostly in the South because of the expense of heating the barracks. Eventually, every state with the exception of Nevada, North Dakota, and Vermont had POW camps.

This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it.
Camp Location
Camp Allegan Michigan
Bradley Field Connecticut
Camp Adair Oregon
Camp Albuquerque New Mexico
Camp Algoma Idaho
Camp Algona Iowa
Camp Aliceville Alabama
Camp Allen Norfolk, Virginia
Camp Alva Oklahoma
Camp Andrews Boston Harbor
Camp Angel Island California
Camp Ashby Virginia
Camp Ashford West Virginia
Camp Atlanta Nebraska
Camp Atterbury (3,500 Italians. Later 10,000 Germans)(www.IndianaMilitary.org) Indiana
Camp AuTrain Michigan, AuTrain
Camp Barkeley Texas
Camp Bastrop
Kurt Richard Westphal escaped in August 1945, and was recaptured in Hamburg, Germany in 1954.
Texas
Camp Beale California
Camp Blanding Florida
Camp Bowie Texas<1>
Camp Brady Texas
Camp Breckinridge Kentucky
Camp Briner North Carolina
Camp Bullis San Antonio, Texas
Camp Butner
Kurt Rossmeisl escaped on 4 August 1945, and surrendered in 1959.
North Carolina
Camp Campbell Kentucky
Camp Carson Colorado
Camp Chaffee Sebastian County, Arkansas
Camp Chickasha Grady County, Oklahoma
Camp Claiborne Louisiana
Camp Clarinda Iowa
Camp Clark Missouri
Camp Clinton Mississippi
Camp Como Mississippi
Camp Concordia Kansas
Camp Cooke California
Camp Croft South Carolina
Camp Crossville Tennessee
Camp Crowder Missouri
Camp David Maryland
Camp Deming
Georg Gärtner escaped on 21 September 1945, and finally surrendered in 1985. He was the last, and had remained at large for 40 years.
New Mexico
Camp Dermott Arkansas
Camp Douglas Wyoming
Camp Edwards Massachusetts
Camp Ellis Illinois
Camp Evelyn Alger County, Michigan
Camp Fannin
Located on the campus of the now University of Texas Health Center at Tyler.
Tyler, Texas
Camp Florence
Largest all-new prisoner of war compound ever constructed on American soil <1>it is now used as United States Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS)
Florence, Arizona
Camp Forrest
First attempted escape by two German POWs on 5 November 1942.
Tullahoma, Tennessee
Camp Gene Autry Ardmore Army Air Field, Oklahoma
Camp Germfask Germfask, Michigan
Camp Grant Rockford, IL
Camp Greeley <2> Greeley, Colorado
Camp Gruber near Muskogee, Oklahoma
Camp Hearne Hearne, Texas
Camp Hereford Deaf Smith County, Texas (only for Italians)<2>
Camp Hobart Oklahoma
Camp Hoffman (close to Fort Lincoln and Held over 5,000 confederate soldiers) Maryland
Camp Hood Texas
Camp Horseshoe Ranch Hickory, Oklahoma
Camp Houlton Maine
Camp Howze Texas<3>
Camp Hulen Palacios,Texas
Camp Huntsdale Pennsylvania
Camp Huntsville Texas
Camp Indianola Nebraska
Camp Jerome Arkansas
Camp Las Cruces
Werner Paul Lueck escaped in November 1945, and was recaptured in Mexico City in 1954.
Las Cruces, New Mexico
Camp Lee Virginia
Camp Livingston Louisiana
Camp Lockett California
Camp Lordsburg
1942-1945: held Japanese American internees, and then German/Italian POWs.
Lordsburg, New Mexico
Camp Mackall Hoffman, North Carolina
Camp McAlester Oklahoma
Camp McCain Mississippi
Camp McCoy Wisconsin
Camp McLean Texas
Camp Mackan North Carolina
Camp Maxey Texas<4>
Camp Mexia Texas
Camp Myles Standish Massachusetts
Camp Monticello Arkansas
Camp New Cumbrland Pennsylvania
Camp Ogden Utah
Camp Oklahoma City On site of Will Rogers World Airport.
Camp Opelika Alabama
Camp Owosso Michigan, Shiawassee County
Camp Papago Park
Germany's 'Great Escape' was from a 200 foot tunnel by 25 prisoners on 24 December 1944.
Arizona
Camp Pauls Valley Oklahoma
Camp Peary Virginia
Camp Perry Ohio
Camp Philips Kansas
Camp Pickett Virginia
Camp Pima Arizona
Camp Pine Grove Furnace / Camp Michaux Gettysburg, PA
Camp Polk Louisiana
Camp Pomona California
Camp Popolopen New York
Camp Pori Michigan, Upper Peninsula
Camp Pryor Oklahoma
Camp Raco Michigan, near Sault Ste. Marie
Camp Reynolds Pennsyslvania
Camp Jos. T. Robinson Arkansas
Camp Roswell
1942-1946: German POWs.
Roswell, New Mexico (14 miles SE of town)
Camp Rucker Alabama
Camp Rupert Idaho
Camp Ruston Louisiana
Camp Santa Fe New Mexico
Camp Scottsbluff Nebraska
Camp Shanks New York: Point of embarkation
Camp Sharpe Gettysburg, PA
Camp Shelby Mississippi
Camp Sibert Alabama
Camp Sidnaw Sidnaw, Michigan
Camp Somerset Maryland
Camp Stark New Hampshire
Camp Stewart Georgia
Camp Stockton California
Stringtown POW Camp Atoka, Oklahoma
Camp Sutton North Carolina
Camp Swift Bastrop, Texas
Camp Thornton Illinois
Camp Tipton Oklahoma
Camp Tishomingo Oklahoma
Camp Tonkawa
Site of murder of Johannes Kunze by five fellow German POWs, who were subsequently tried, found guilty and hanged.
Oklahoma
Camp Tooele / POW Camp, Co.1, Tooele (original postage) Utah
Camp Trinidad
A 150-foot electrically-lighted tunnel was discovered by authorities.
Colorado
Camp Van Dorn Mississippi
Camp Wallace Galveston County,Texas
Camp Warner Utah
Camp Washington
Reinhold Pabel escaped on 9 September 1945, and was recaptured in Chicago in March 1953
Washington (near Peoria), Illinois
Camp Waynoka Oklahoma
Camp Wharton Wharton, Texas
Camp Wheeler Georgia
Camp White Oregon
Camp White Rock Dallas, Texas
Camp Wolters Texas
Corpus Christi Naval Air Station Corpus Christi, Texas
Edgewood Arsenal Maryland
Eglin Army Air Field Florida
Fort Benjamin Harrison Indiana
Fort Benning Georgia
Fort Bliss Texas
Fort Bragg North Carolina
Fort Campbell Kentucky
Fort Crockett Galveston, Texas
Fort Curtis Virginia
Fort Custer Michigan
Fort Devens Massachusetts
Fort Dix
Harry Girth escaped in June 1946, and surrendered to authorities in New York City in 1953.
New Jersey
Fort Drum New York
Fort DuPont Delaware
Fort Eustis Virginia
Fort Gordon Georgia
Fort Jackson South Carolina
Fort Kearny Rhode Island
Fort Knox Kentucky
Fort Lawton (Seattle) Washington
A riot by Negro soldiers took place over preferential treatment given to Italian & German
POW's. One Italian POW was lynched, and Leon Jaworski was the military prosecutor. The Italian and one German POW who committed suicide rather than be repatriated are buried just outside the post cemetery boundaries.

Fort Leavenworth Kansas
Fort Leonard Wood Missouri
Fort Lewis Between Olympia and Tacoma, WA
Fort McClellan Alabama
Fort Meade Maryland
Fort Niagara New York
Fort Oglethorpe Georgia
Fort Omaha Omaha, Nebraska
Fort Ord
A 120-foot nearly completed tunnel was discovered by authorities.
California
Fort Patrick Henry Virginia
Fort Reno Oklahoma
Fort Riley Kansas
Fort Robinson Nebraska
Fort D. A. Russell Texas
Fort Sam Houston Texas
Fort Sheridan Illinois
Fort Sill Lawton, Oklahoma
Fort Sumner New Mexico
Fort F.E. Warren Wyoming
Glennan General Hospital Oklahoma
Halloran General Hospital New York
Hampton Roads Port of Embarkation Virginia
Indiantown Gap Military Reservation Pennsyslvania
Holabird Signal Depot Maryland
McCloskey General Hospital Texas
Memphis General Depot Tennessee
New Orleans Port of Embarkation Louisiana
Olmstead Field Pennsyslvania
Pine Bluff Arsenal Arkansas
Richmond ASF Depot Virginia
Tobyhanna Military Reservation Pennsyslvania
Westover Field Massachusetts
Rose Hill Rocky mountain arsenal, Colorado

[Vincardog]

29. Prisoners of War? Did Congress declare War when I wasn't looking? When will this "War" end?

[EFerrari]

35. Comparing the fake WOT to WWII doesn't work.

[Zynx]

23. You have a problem lecturing on the rule of law when your signature line doesn't spell

"indict" correctly. Indite means something else altogether.

[Clio the Leo]

12. Because.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8424595&mesg_id=8424660

[jillan]

17. Obama said "if and when" that happened, it would be done within the

laws of our constitution, and our values.

Isn't everyone jumping ahead here? Obama talked about that as something he does not want to do.

-----
In our constitutional system, prolonged detention should not be the decision of any one man. If and when we determine that the United States must hold individuals to keep them from carrying out an act of war, we will do so within a system that involves judicial and congressional oversight. And so going forward, my Administration will work with Congress to develop an appropriate legal regime so that our efforts are consistent with our values and our Constitution.

http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/05/21/transcript-of-president-obamas-speech-about-guantanamo-and-terrorism-may-21-2009/

[JamesA1102]

31. Please no one here wants a thoughtful or factual discussion

based on the facts. Everyone just wants to beat their chests in self-rightous indignation.

[Brigid]

22. Don't dismiss my concerns . . .

just because we're talking about the trustworthy Obama. What about the next Bush who comes along, and finds that terms like "prolonged detention" have become palatable to the American people? One good thing that may have come out of the Bush years is a healthy distrust of government and the realization that it is made up of people, not all of good character.

[dionysus]

26. apparently you didn't listen to him explain all this in his excellent speech yesterday?

:shrug:

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

39. Rachel speaks for me when she says

"This was a beautiful speech from President Obama today with patriotic even moving language about the rule of law and the constitution and one of the most radical proposals for defying the constitution we have ever heard made to the American people."

I guess a number of people are not buying the explanation.

[leftofthedial]

32. Compare Gitmo now

to Dachau in 1933-1936...

compare "prolonged detention" and the absence of any objective criteria for determining who qualifies for it with the earliest stages of any totalitarian regime's use of "prolonged detention."

[scrappydo]

33. okay...okay...okay..argue until you are blue in the face...

To begin with, how can we prosecute anyone if there is no cleear picture that says what these detainees have done? The CIA screwed that up - THAT CIA under BUSH. Every person brought to trial in this country has both a prosecution lawyer and a defense lawyer. How can we prosecute anyone with no clear charges under which to prosecute them and no viable defense because if charges cannot be brought, you do not know the evidence against a client and no way to defend them. Gitmo is a HUGE problem and Congress has not been any help. Do not expect the problem to be solved any time soon because it will not be.

President Obama has to wade through the ungodly mess Bush and his cohorts left behind. Obama is a chess player. Do not judge him or his remarks until all of the pieces have been played. We knew when he was campaigning, and have seen since he was elected, that he handles situations slowly and with great deliberation. Yes, there are sometimes smoke and mirrors, but they may only cover the behind-the-scenes play and moves that we, as private citizens, are not privy to.

I believe some people on this blog jump to conclusions too quickly, others complain because they simple like to complain, and others have the common sense, critical thinking skills, and reasoning power to wait until the last chess piece has been played.

Patience is a great virtue - I wish some you would work on that.

[EFerrari]

44. You're very free with the time others are serving. n/t

[Unsane]

40. You people are morons. These detainees ARE NOT AMERICANS.

They are not residents either, or aliens for that matter. They have never sat foot in this country, are not being held in this country, and were captured in a foreign theater of war. They are PRISONERS OF WAR, not criminal defendants. POWs are usually held by the capturing country INDEFINITELY until hostilities end and release to a host country can occur (see GENEVA CONVENTIONS). The question now is HOW to continue holding these people until Obama feels comfortable either (a) adjudicating them as defendants in federal court (b) continue holding them indefinitely as POWs, or (c) release them to a host country.

This isn't a case of fucking Dan Defendant who gets a right to a full jury trial.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

41. This discussion is not limited to Guantanamo

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/21/us/politics/21obama.html?_r=1
from the article linked above:

They said Mr. Obama told them he was thinking about “the long game” — how to establish a legal system that would endure for future presidents. He raised the issue of preventive detention himself, but made clear that he had not made a decision on it. Several senior White House officials did not respond to requests for comment on the outsiders’ accounts.

“He was almost ruminating over the need for statutory change to the laws so that we can deal with individuals who we can’t charge and detain,” one participant said. “We’ve known this is on the horizon for many years, but we were able to hold it off with George Bush. The idea that we might find ourselves fighting with the Obama administration over these powers is really stunning.”

The other participant said Mr. Obama did not seem to be thinking about preventive detention for terrorism suspects now held at Guantánamo Bay, but rather for those captured in the future, in settings other than a legitimate battlefield like Afghanistan. “The issue is,” the participant said, “What are the options left open to a future president?”

**********************************************************************************************************
Always helpful to label people as morons when trying to discuss issues of major importance. Your labeling is a reflection on you, not those you direct it towards.

[Adelante]

42. Here is a discussion of that very thing at "Talk Left"

"Preventive Detention" And Prisoners Of War

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2009/5/22/112959/706

[EFerrari]

43. Human rights are not dependent on the comfort level of the Executive.

And the majority of them were not captured, they were SOLD to Rumsfeld for a bounty.

The moran is very much on the other foot.

[rcrush]

45. kick