PHOTOS No offence, but I'm kinda glad Michelle didn't travel to Saudi Arabia.

[Jackeens]

1

2

3

Laura Bush in Saudi Arabia in 2007.

Michelle today:



U.S. first lady Michelle Obama cheers as graduates arrive in the auditorium at the graduation ceremony for the Washington Mathematics Science Technology Public Charter High School in Washington June 3, 2009.

[Triana]

1. Egh. Seconded. n/t

[onehandle]

2. Looks like Laura didn't get the memo. Cover it up, or else. nt

[MADem]

3. Isn't this SA visit just a stopover, anyway?

I didn't even realize that he was going to SA--all I heard about was CAIRO. Then again, I haven't been paying a lot of attention. One of my relatives has been going in and out of Cairo a lot, lately--they've been spiffing the place up a bit.

[Lasher]

4. What's the point getting your picture taken if you've got a blanket over your head?

I can actually see that lady's fingers in the last photo.

[Colobo]

5. I would love to see humanity emancipated from Christianity, Islam and all that stuff.

[Inuca]

6. SCARY looking.

Also, the pink makes it worse.

[Hepburn]

7. WOW....

....:puke:

But, Pickles would probably look better in a burkha.

JMHO

[ronnykmarshall]

11. Bad, bad, bad!

:silly:

[Hepburn]

32. Just being my bad self today...!!! n/t

[Hepburn]

8. Check this out: SWIMMING IN A BURKHA!

IMO, a sure way to drown with all that wet fabric!

[Beacool]

22. She's even wearing gloves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How sick is that? Are her hands also so enticing that no man could resist seeing them?

Pity that Hillary didn't go to SA with Obama (she's catching up with him in Egypt). It would have been great to see her flaunt her blonde locks and bright suits in these bigots' faces.

:crazy:

[Hepburn]

30. Yeah, the gloves....

...like BARE hands are sooooo enticing.

:eyes:

[mopinko]

34. ya know, i think that is the point. it is a fetish.

like the mormon sacred underwear, like the victorians. they find it titillating. so they impose their fetish on the whole population. because they can.

[Hepburn]

35. Wonder if any of the men take photos of gloved hands into the bathroom and...

...oh, never mind...:puke:

[Beacool]

38. Bad, bad, bad..............

Now I got that thought in my head!!!

:spank:

[Hepburn]

54. Here ya go....

...Sexy, black, French gloves!



:evilgrin:

[Beacool]

60. You're too bad!!!

:rofl:

[Beacool]

37. I was thinking

I wonder what men who won't allow their women to wear in public anything other than a burka think of women who don't wear them. Do they think that they are promiscuous, that they are fair game because they are not covered from head to toe? How did they react when dealing with our previous 2 female SOS and now with Hillary? I know that they represent the US and therefore they will listen, but privately, do they really respect their intelligence and expertise?

:(

[Clio the Leo]

73. I dont know how they reacted but....

... here are some pics for comparison.



(Albright in Kuwait)


I cant find one of Hillary.

Interesting to note in the swimming photo above, the MEN are wearing shirts. Still not exactly equal dress code, but how many American men swim with their shirts on?

[Beacool]

79. Hillary hasn't gone there as SOS.

She may have gone as First Lady, I don't recall. But as FL they wouldn't have cared much one way or another about her opinions. Being the SOS is a totally different story.

;)

[femrap]

43. deleted nt

[Beacool]

44. What are you talking about?????????????

I'm appalled that this woman in the pic couldn't even bathe without wearing gloves. I'm not condemning the woman, but the regime that considers even showing hands something so sexually arousing that they have to be covered.

:wow:

[femrap]

71. I deleted the post....

I misread your post.

Women are nothing in Saudi except temptress...Eye Candy...they are blamed for unsatisfied erections...so they cover them completely. Saudi women have few freedoms...they cannot drive nor vote. Saudi follows Wahabi Islam...most strict of the Sunni. This Wahabi dude came to earth in the 1800's...I compare him to the Mormon dude...we need to have many many many wives!

I'm rather pissed that Michelle didn't go to Saudi and stand up for women's rights...but that is NOT possible because they sell us oil. It's all about oil, money, power, and oppression of women.

FYI...when looking for land mines, the women go ahead of the donkeys and camels....I think that says everything, doesn't it?

Mother Nature will have the final say. These power-humgry rich boyz have pretty much destroyed this planet.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, OK?

[Beacool]

78. That's OK, no hard feelings.

As for the administration, they said today in the news that Obama wasn't going to push for human rights in SA nor Egypt (same as with China). They said that at the moment there were more important issues to deal with than human rights.

The US has had a tradition of decades of kowtowing to the Saudis, I doubt that there will be a change in policy anytime soon. I doubt that Michelle would go to SA to give a speech on human rights. Not because she probably wouldn't love to do it, but it would go against our policy of not pissing off the Saudis while they sort of pretend to be our allies. They got the oil, we got the need for it.......

:eyes:



:hi:

[femrap]

83. The U.S. is number ONE

when it comes to Hypocrisy.

The women in the Middle East will fight the war the gov't/taliban/religion fights against them. If I had to wear a burqa, I'd have an ak 47 under it. It's not that I'm not a peaceful person, sometimes you just have to defend yourself and those women certainly qualify.

:hi:

Join me in not purchasing anything made in China or Saudi Arabia. I don't buy anything from China unless it's the only country that makes the item...like alarm clocks and fans. I have no clothing nor electronics from China. Taiwan, OK. Vietnam, OK....in fact I think we owe them for such destruction.

I, sometimes, don't think women are included in the category of 'human rights.'

[femrap]

41. Big reason why so many

women died in the tsunami...keeping themselves covered from head to toe had been drilled into their brains since the first day of birth.

[Hepburn]

55. OMG....

...that is so sad....:cry:

[femrap]

72. I know...

I wonder when this oppression will stop.

[OnyxCollie]

50. Wet Burka Night!

Ha cha cha cha!

[Kalyke]

63. But, you know something, she and her husband look as

though they're in love.

Seriously.

[hileeopnyn8d]

67. I noticed that too.

Maybe it's just me, but their posture seems very intimate.

[endarkenment]

9. Gross!

pebbles, that is. Hard to tell about the other people in the picture.

[depakid]

10. Agreed. It would have sent the wrong message.

as aptly illustrated above.

[Rebubula]

13. What wrong message?

Not trying to be snarky or rude...just wondering what message is being sent...

[depakid]

26. Michelle Obama is a strong and independent woman in her own right

her travelling to Saudi Arabia would have tweaked just about everybody's noses.

No sense in doing that.

These sorts of deals are why some of us recognize that with respect to foreign policy, President Obama may well be one of the most effective leaders in history (and not just US history).

[Grey]

12. In picture #3, Check out the

pink ribbon on her left shoulder. I think that is interesting.
There may be two or more ladies wearing them in picture #2?

[Hepburn]

15. Like pink "breast cancer" ribbons? n/t

[Jackeens]

16. Well spotted! These women, apparently, were breast cancer survivors

Just found this:

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2007/10/gulf_women_afra.php

[left coaster]

17. wearing pink ribbons..

..in support of breast cancer issues, perhaps?

[Occam Bandage]

28. I'm surprised their society is allowing them to declare that they have breasts. nt

[Captain Hilts]

14. Agreed. nt

[vaberella]

18. Laura Bush looks like an inconsiderate fool. ~sigh~ n/t

[Withywindle]

61. Eh, no, in this case I don't think so.

I mean, she's a frump with bad fashion sense, but I don't think she's being inconsiderate here. I think when Western women visit countries with these dress codes, we should be respectful enough to dress modestly, wear a headscarf when visiting a mosque, etcetera. But I also don't think we're required to endorse full veiling by wearing it if we don't believe in it, and it would be too much like putting on a weird uncomfortable costume anyway. It wouldn't show respect, it would be like playing pretend.

[Drunken Irishman]

64. I normally agree with you vaberella, but not this time.

[Beacool]

19. Laura was there to support breast cancer awareness.

She looks quite lovely in these pics, sorry she picked such a loser for a husband.

These poor women, Saudi Arabia is one of the most repressive governments in the ME, but every US president has been bowing to them for decades. Money and oil talks.....

I was friends with a girl some years ago whose father was a diplomat in SA, she refused to go back after her first stay. She said that it was suffocating to be a woman there, even within the diplomatic corps. Thank goodness my dad never had to serve in the ME. Lucky because my mother would probably have been arrested, she would not have stayed quiet about their repression of women. She would have gotten her Irish up and told them precisely what she thought. LOL!!

:D

[Jackeens]

20. "She would have gotten her Irish up"

:thumbsup:

:-)

[Beacool]

24. Anyone who thinks that women are the "weaker" sex hasn't meant my mom.

My dad knew better.

:7

[FunkyLeprechaun]

36. My friend who's a doctor

Had to go to Saudi Arabia and she had to cover up and could not leave the hotel without a male companion. She said she felt like a prisoner in the hotel.

I know someone whose father is in critical condition (had a heart attack) in Saudi Arabia but cannot get hospital care because he's not a Saudi. Its crazy that the Saudi doctors won't treat someone with a different ME nationality.

[Beacool]

40. It's terrible.

The girl I spoke of said that even as a member of the diplomatic corps she was forbidden to drive a car. She spent a miserable summer (we were in boarding school in high school) and refused to go back. Imagine the culture shock for an American teenager.

The story about your friend's father is appalling. No solidarity, not even an ounce of humanity. What's the man supposed to do, just drop dead of a heart attack?

Geez.........

x(

[csziggy]

76. A friend of mine spent ten years in SA - her husband was working for Saudi Oil

As a Safety Officer/Fireman. She's told me the only way she survived was traveling out of SA a LOT. She got to see much of Europe while he was over there working. Their house was across the street from a mosque - the call to prayer was flat out annoying though after the first six months she almost forgot it was there.

To this day when she sees a Muslim woman with her head covered in this country, she wants to rip it off. She says she lived by their rules while in their country, they should live by our rules here. But being a good Democrat and a moderate liberal, she restrains herself.

[Beacool]

77. I have very little first hand knowledge about the Koran.

But, is anything written there that states that a woman has to be covered form head to toe? How about having to be accompanied at all times by a male member of her family? Obviously, it doesn't say anything about driving.

To me these are the same misogynist dictums that the Catholic church came up with to keep women under control by denying them the opportunity to serve as priests.

Just because a paternalistic society imposed restraints on women over centuries, women should not feel that they have to continue to be subjected to them.

;)

[csziggy]

80. I don't know much either other than what I've read in popular media

But I agree with you - I don't think the Koran requires that women be covered or be subservient to men. In fact, I think I read that Mohammed gave his wife a lot of independence and relied on her a lot.

Of course, neither the Old or New Testaments have anything other than what the misogynist Paul wrote about women being subservient to men - Jesus certainly never said anything like that. And there have been plenty of Christian sects that create that dogma for their use.

Cultures bend their religions to fit what those in power want them to say. And it has been very useful to a lot of religions to control their women. Most often they do it to control paternalistic succession but I believe they also do it to control a potentially powerful segment of the population.

But times change and cultures either change with the times or they die off. I think we are in a period of history that is seeing the death throes of some cultures, and that is always dangerous.

[Thothmes]

82. What the Koran requires is that men and women

dress modestly. What constitutes "modestly" is open to interpretation. The Wahbis sect of Islam take the ultimate strict interpretation. The Muslims, say in Turkey or Indonesia have different interpretations of "modestly"

[Number23]

81. "they should live by our rules here."

She says she lived by their rules while in their country, they should live by our rules here.

What are the "rules" here that your friend thinks Muslim women should live by?

[ecstatic]

21. Does that woman have a full blanket over her head because

she can't be seen with a woman who is not covered up? :shrug:

[Dulcinea]

23. Maybe she didn't want to go.

Would you want to go somewhere that you'd have to wear a big black curtain in 120-degree weather? No thanks!

[On the Road]

25. Of Course, If She Went Immediately After that Graduation Ceremony

her outfit would have fit right in.

[zulchzulu]

27. The one on the far left in the second photo is such a HOTTIE!!!!

:sarcasm:

[noamnety]

29. I'm guessing you've never had friends who wore a burqa.

Being in the Detroit area, I have. It's so strange to imagine saying to one of them that I'd be humiliated to be seen with them.

I also think it's weird that people here (not the OP) are commenting on the breast cancer ribbons as if they are somewhat surprised to see them supporting a cause. You all know they have opinions and go to protests and such, right?

At a protest rally I went to in Detroit (you can see a couple people in burqas at about the center of the photo:



Finally it makes us look culturally ignorant to refer to burqas as having a "blanket" thrown over one's head.

-------------
All of these comments are separate from endorsing misogyny in that culture (or any other culture). We too have a culture of misogyny though it's manifested in less visible/dramatic ways at times. There are a lot of other oppressed people in our own culture - do we really want a first family who refuses to be seen with them?

[Jackeens]

33. I have several!

There is a large Muslim population in Ireland now, so several of my friends are Muslim women, many of whom wear burkas. I respect their culture and religion, but I'm sorry - I just can't be comfortable with the thinking behind burkas, no matter how open-minded I try to be. As a woman I find them offensive, that's just the way it is. But they are happy to wear them - they choose to - so I respect their choice.

What I can't figure is why you assume I have no friends who wear burkas, simply because I am uncomfortable with their purpose??

[noamnety]

39. A lot of us are uncomfortable with their purpose.

The OP seemed to express pleasure about Michelle not associating with the women in the photos. I don't think we should be in the business of snubbing women who live in oppressive cultures - all that happens then is that we are contributing to their further oppression and marginalization, where I'd rather give them MORE voice, not less.

[Jackeens]

42. No!

I never, for one moment, intended the OP to suggest "pleasure about Michelle not associating with the women in the photos" - I am sorry if that is how it seemed. Needless to say, my issue isn't with those women, it's with the culture that requires them to dress in that manner. Of course, some are content to dress that way, but many are not.

But I understand your point, maybe Michelle's presence there might have been seen as a gesture of support and solidarity to those women, it is another way of looking at it.

Either way, I don't see Michelle's absence from this leg of the trip of as a "snub" to those women, rather - perhaps - a snub to that regime?

[frazzled]

45. Yes, we shouldn't be culturally myopic . . . and yet

Back at the time of the Iranian revolution in 1978 I had the opportunity to sit around with a group of young Iranian students and artists here in the U.S., a number of them women. They were so excited and positive about it. I asked the women--one of them an accomplished filmmaker, another a graduate student, and both really hip and decked out in full western style--weren't they opposed to wearing the veil? Absolutely not: they embraced it.

Okay, I thought. It doesn't compute, but who am I to judge? And yet, as we know, we can only bring our own perspectives to these things. I continue to feel that Sharia law is essentially anti-woman, and that the veil (or the burqa) is misguided and ultimately self-defeating. But my opinions don't count. And women here can not advocate for Muslim women. If they want equality or have problems with these things, they must fight for that themselves. We can't impose our notions of equality on them on the end of a placard.

Years later, I know that at least Iranian women have been vocal and successful in fighting for certain kinds of rights, especially the right to divorce. Women even in Saudi Arabia will decide for themselves what they want. And they are well-educated and accomplished. If they want it, they will achieve it.

[RayOfHope]

46. Your friends are protesting in Detroit. I doubt these women protest much in Saudi Arabia n/t

[Fleshdancer]

31. IMO, this would be the hardest thing as a high level female politician

I can't speak for other women, but I refuse to visit any country that requires me to cover my face. If I can't respect a country's customs for whatever reason, then I won't go. Some women don't have the luxury of choice though (ie: Hillary Clinton) and I wonder how they deal with it. Perhaps some don't care. Perhaps others really struggle with it. I have no idea.

[rvablue]

47. Foreign women are not required to cover their face in Saudi Arabia.

They merely have to wear a scarf over their hair.

Hence why Pickles has that scarf draped over her shoulders in the pic. She probably went into a house/room with just women (including the photographer) and so was able to remove it. When she left all she did was lightly drape and tie the scarf over her head.

[leftynyc]

57. What would happen if

a woman didn't wear the scarf over her hair?

[Fleshdancer]

68. Is it that way in Kuwait too?

I should look that up. Google here I come. :)

[sammytko]

70. not required to cover up in Kuwait, but they don't show skin either.

One thing they do, is wear tight clothing. i was surprised.

[rvablue]

48. The mocking, ignorant and culturally insensitive remarks on this thread are pretty sad.

And surprising on a place like DU.

I guess for all of the traveling that many here have done, very few have been to the Middle East.

[endarkenment]

51. so this is just a fashion issue between cultures?

nothing else to see in the head to toe shrouding of women by fundamentalist patriarchal societies?

[rvablue]

52. Didn't say anything about a "fashion issue" and this post just proves my point. n/t

[endarkenment]

53. I give up. What is the politically correct attitude towards shrouded women?

[leftynyc]

58. I am and will always be

insensitive and mocking of any culture that treats women like shit and makes them cover from head to toe as if our bodies are dirty. Fuck them. And I wouldn't visit any of these countries for just that reason.

[Drunken Irishman]

66. That's if you expect us to agree with this culture.

I do not.

[rvablue]

69. I don't agree with it either. That doesn't mean that we have to refer to hijab as a "blanket."

And if I remember my fellow Catholic, at times, the mocking and denegration of Catholics on this board has gotten to you at times.

You'll never find me telling folks they can't criticize the Catholic Church. And I don't mind if others, including myself, have criticism for what we see in these pictures.

I certainly wouldn't want to live like that and wouldn't wish it upon anyone.

Tone and choice of language are everything. And also respecting others. There are many, many women all over the Arab world, who if you told them tomorrow they could take off the scarves, head wraps and burquas (don't know the Arab word for burqua) they wouldn't. It's part of their identity, whether imposed by a male, thousands-of-years old hierarchery (sound familiar) or not.

I've had these discussions firsthand with women who hold university degrees, professional jobs, and in one case, with a lady with a husband who wished that she wouldn't wear a head scarf (this was in Jordan where it is not law)and she didn't want to take it off.

[MoonRiver]

49. OMG! What is weirder, dimwit's bride or the blackones?

:crazy: Then comes a beautiful, intelligent First Lady, just radiating positive vibes! Incredible contrasts! THANK YOU GOD!! :)

[Sultana]

56. The 2nd and 3rd pic are from Pickles trip to Dubai/UAE not SA

[Jackeens]

65. Yikes! This link says it was Saudi Arabia

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2007/10/gulf_women_afra.php

Sorry if it was wrong. I spent some time in the UAE and found it to be relatively 'liberal' (apart from Sharjah) so it never entered my head the photos were from there. Sorry again!

[annabanana]

59. I like Michelles robes MUCH better than the Saudi women's. . .n/t

[geiger]

62. #3 pix is the most absurd pix i hav ever seen in my life. L Bush looks like the stupidest person on

the planet.

[Clio the Leo]

74. Perhaps the question we need to all be asking ourselves is....

... if a group of Yanomamo women visited the Congress or the White House, would we expect them to wear bras and shirts ... and pants?

I'm gonna post this photo here even though I'm not sure if it's allowed, but I think the very question is proof of my point....

(obviously if it's a problem, a mod can delete it)

I'm obviously not endorsing all of the disparity between the freedoms Western woman have and some Arab women DONT have ... but it's something to think about. Modesty is a relative thing.

When in Riyadh .....

[Teaser]

75. check out the spectacles on the babe in the first pic

woo hoo.

[LooseWilly]

84. Next time, don't bother to say no offense...

I would've just assumed you were making a fashion judgement (which I'm rather ok with)... now I see that you're making a values judgement (which I'm not so ok with).

Oops... "no offense" made your post rather offensive. Clumsy you. I'll presume you'll learn from your mistake... so that you can make your value judgements in a more suave fashion the next time...