dixiegrrrrl
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:48 PM
Original message |
Obama said just now " I have never said I was in favor of a single payer pan" |
MNDemNY
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:49 PM
Response to Original message |
PretzelWarrior
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
5. you seem unsure. do you think true or false? |
MNDemNY
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
25. Not unsure, confused by the silly question. |
Hutzpa
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:49 PM
Response to Original message |
PretzelWarrior
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:50 PM
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MNDemNY
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:53 PM
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Hutzpa
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #13 |
18. you're sleep walking. |
MNDemNY
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
19. maybe, but I am correct. |
Deja Q
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
21. You both need to get laid. |
Hutzpa
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #21 |
AngryAmish
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #21 |
PretzelWarrior
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:49 PM
Response to Original message |
3. TRUE! He said if we were starting from SCRATCH, he'd be for single payer |
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but as it is, we need something more incremental
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MNDemNY
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
7. Unless you go back to his days before the Senate. |
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But that would not fit your fantasy, now would it?
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Bluerthanblue
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
8. that's right- It's what I've always heard him say. |
Newshues
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
16. incremental towards what? |
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Seriously. You can't have an incremental change towards a goal without having a goal to change to.
Just what do you think the incremental is towards?
This is hair splitting like supporting civil unions but being against gay marriage. I can understanding that position as a compromise to head off gay marriage but under equality reasoning? not so much.
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Deja Q
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
17. Wouldn't it be more cost-effective to start a new system from scratch? |
BlooInBloo
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #17 |
23. It's the difference between fixing a boat in drydock and fixing a boat while still sailing on it... |
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Edited on Tue Aug-11-09 12:56 PM by BlooInBloo
One gives you more options than the other.
Taiwaan is an example of the drydock side of the analogy.
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JayMusgrove
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Tue Aug-11-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #17 |
68. How would you enroll 300,000,000 people all at once? Suggest a |
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way that that could be done.
There would be chaos, massive layoffs in the health insurance industry, (I might like THAT part), and if you think the town halls are turning violent, imagine what we'd be seeing if all 300,000,000 people had to enroll in one day, week, or month. Even i the IRS takes months to sort through about a hundred fifty million taxpayer's tax forms.
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SKKY
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
20. Ding! Ding! We have a winner... |
Oregone
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
61. So he favors it in a hypothetical situation, but he doesn't favor it overall? |
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Thats your take?
BTW, expanding Medicare to cover more people is far more "incremental" that establishing a brand new government bureaucracy for the "public option".
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Dawgs
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:51 PM
Response to Original message |
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Since running for President? TRUE
Prior to running for office? FALSE
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MNDemNY
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #6 |
11. Your popping the pretzel's bubble. |
Joanne98
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:52 PM
Response to Original message |
9. False. And that's why he got asked that question by a republican |
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Now they're going to make a big deal about HE LIED!
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Deja Q
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:52 PM
Response to Original message |
10. An article AND A YOUTUBE VIDEO |
DrToast
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:53 PM
Response to Original message |
12. Did he say "ever" or just since the health care debate has been going on |
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He said a long time ago that he was in favor of it, but not recently.
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DJ13
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:53 PM
Response to Original message |
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But I think he was "never for single payer" in relation to after his decision to accept health care money when he first ran for the Senate.
I really dont appreciate his easy dismissal of single payer due to it being "disruptive".
Thats just a dodge to excuse his half baked attempt to "reform" health care while maintaining the same status quo that is the heart of the problem.
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dflprincess
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Wed Aug-12-09 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
92. It would disrupt not only his ability, but the ability of most of Congress |
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to raise large sums of money off the current system.
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villager
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:53 PM
Response to Original message |
15. "I happen to be a proponent -- of a single payer plan" |
create.peace
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Tue Aug-11-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #15 |
24. thanks! saved me some time. nt |
PretzelWarrior
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #15 |
26. that is not germane to what he's doing once he is running on the goald of health care reform |
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in 2007 and 2008. A quote from 2003? When he wasn't even in a position to affect change on that level? It's a stretch.
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villager
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #26 |
30. Earlier position on health care not germane to his current one? |
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Edited on Tue Aug-11-09 01:04 PM by villager
He clearly *was* in favor single payer, before he was against it. Or found it "disruptive."
the point is, power has corroded Mr. Obama's "progressivism." Just a tad.
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PretzelWarrior
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #30 |
32. power? Or political reality. look at the fucking psycho storm with what IS being presented. |
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at least with the current plan, Obama and team can rightfully counter the "Canadian socialized health care" canard with the truth about people keeping their private insurance.
I think you and your purity types are a big reason we kept losing elections.
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villager
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #32 |
36. i think you and your "reverse every progressive stance we have" crowd is a big reason |
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the Democrats are perceived as having no backbone, and failing to stand up for any real change...
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PretzelWarrior
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #36 |
47. uhhhmmm...yeah. right. we already have more change than you guys admit |
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and it is continuing to happen, but since it isn't happening to the extent YOU want...then it isn't happening. Buncha fucking whiners.
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villager
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #47 |
57. "buncha fucking whiners?" Projection much? |
debbierlus
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Wed Aug-12-09 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #36 |
86. Exactly. Why would they listen to us - the health care industry buys the politicians |
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Writes the legislation....
Dictates the dialogue
And, the people just go along with it.
Such good little Germans
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Hutzpa
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #30 |
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sometimes we tend to nit pick to what we wanna hear, there is nothing different from that video to what he has always said, which is, HE IS FOR SINGLE PAYER, but its going to take a while to get it.
People just tend to ignore the obvious...
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PretzelWarrior
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #34 |
38. why can't people here play along even for a fucking moment? |
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I know we're not GW Bush lemmings who will swallow whole anything fed to us, but there is a point at which healthy skepticism bleeds over into unmitigated cynicism and obstruction.
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MNDemNY
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:10 PM
Original message |
"play along" ?? No thank you, a lie is a lie. he should not lie. |
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And you should not defend a lie.
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PretzelWarrior
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:13 PM
Response to Original message |
45. no. he's not lying. but neither is he content to stop at only a public option |
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but he can't say that and hope to get any progress on what is being worked on right now. you guys are pathetic. willfully stupid. Too fucking bad McCain and "Death Panel" Palin aren't running things instead.
I'll say it again. You "single payer" purists are stupid, stupid, stupid.
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Hutzpa
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #45 |
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well why didn't you say so Rahm, it could have been easier on all of us...:rofl:
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MNDemNY
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #45 |
59. You jump to conclusions too fast. |
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It IS a lie for Obama to have said that he was never in favor of single payer. You , and I both know that is not the case, (unless you are of the mind that Obama was lying back then. )
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Hutzpa
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #38 |
43. Want me to play along |
vaberella
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Wed Aug-12-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #30 |
76. No it didn't. That was a video before he even ran for President--about 3 years before. n/t |
MNDemNY
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #26 |
37. No his claim using the word "never" is the stretch. |
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Edited on Tue Aug-11-09 01:09 PM by MNDemNY
stretched to the point of a lie.
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Bluenorthwest
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Tue Aug-11-09 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #37 |
71. And a lie is a lie. That was a lie |
Deja Q
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #26 |
JVS
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #26 |
58. That was the argument people made against giving him credit for opposing the Iraq war. |
Bill219
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #15 |
28. Some of the comments on some of the videos on that site |
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are down right scary and insane
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Hutzpa
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #28 |
31. I'm not paying attention to that |
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the video is whats important, those jackasses that are being paid to go to blogs and disrupt does not phase me one nano second.
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Hutzpa
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #15 |
Phx_Dem
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:00 PM
Response to Original message |
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Edited on Tue Aug-11-09 01:01 PM by Phx_Dem
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scheming daemons
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:04 PM
Response to Original message |
33. True.... in hist time as Senator and President, he has never been for it... |
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..made one statement back in 2003 saying "if starting from scratch..."
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vaberella
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Wed Aug-12-09 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #33 |
dixiegrrrrl
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:08 PM
Response to Original message |
35. I should have been more clear. |
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Edited on Tue Aug-11-09 01:08 PM by dixiegrrrrl
I typed out the question as I was listening to his Town Hall on C-span right now. ( It will prolly be replayed)
It has been claimed that DURING HIS CAMPAIGN FOR PRESIDENT he said he was in favor of "single payer".
My question on this thread is:
does anyone remember that ? better yet, has anyone a link to a quote during the campaign.?
edit to add word.
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Hutzpa
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #35 |
Name removed
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #39 |
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Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
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Hutzpa
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #41 |
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but the question is, has he ever been for single payer?? that was the question... no? yes?
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PretzelWarrior
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #46 |
49. but your latest answer was to a clarification of the question |
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and you're being willfully ignorant/blind because you want your pound of flesh from Obama on some idealistic principled point.
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Hutzpa
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #49 |
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quarter pounder will do it....:P
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dixiegrrrrl
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #46 |
51. Please see my clarification in question # 35. |
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DURING HIS
************PRESIDENTIAL ***************
CAMPAIGN.
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BonnieJW
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:12 PM
Response to Original message |
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When he was a state senator, he said he favored single payor. I saw the video. Doesn't he realize all this stuff is on video?
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ProSense
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #42 |
56. "Doesn't he realize all this stuff is on video?" |
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Do you realize this thread is bogus?
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BlooInBloo
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:12 PM
Response to Original message |
Writer
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:16 PM
Response to Original message |
50. FALSE. He's always been pro-skillet. n/t |
PretzelWarrior
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #50 |
52. good catch, Writer. lol. |
scheming daemons
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:18 PM
Response to Original message |
53. One time.. in 2003... Obama said he was in favor of single payer. EVERY SINGLE TIME SINCE...... |
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he has said he is NOT in favor of it... including dozens of times on the campaign trail during an 18 month Presidential run.
If you came into this year thinking that Obama was for Single Payer, then you're a fucking idiot or you've been asleep for 6 years.
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4_Legs_Good
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:24 PM
Response to Original message |
60. I recall him answering a question saying if he were starting from scratch he would like Single Payer |
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but given that we already have a system, he's in favor of different reform.
David
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Thrill
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:50 PM
Response to Original message |
Raine1967
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Tue Aug-11-09 01:53 PM
Response to Original message |
63. What is a single payer pan? |
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I am so confused. Does that mean only one person gets to cook babies and grammas for the death panel at a time?
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dixiegrrrrl
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Tue Aug-11-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #63 |
ItNerd4life
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Tue Aug-11-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #64 |
66. Yes, but I did think it was funny. I laughed anyway. nt |
masuki bance
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Wed Aug-12-09 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #64 |
83. You should have included this- |
gmoney
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Wed Aug-12-09 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #63 |
84. Obama rejects socialized cookware! |
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A chicken in every pot, perhaps, but you must provide your own pot!
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ItNerd4life
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Tue Aug-11-09 03:32 PM
Response to Original message |
65. WTF? We in DU can't even agree on what Obama believes or said? |
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No wonder there is so much confusion from the other side, we are confused on our own side.
Obviously he isn't explaining himself very well and getting a single coherent message out.
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PretzelWarrior
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Tue Aug-11-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #65 |
69. you're right. he's the one dredging videos from 2003. how bad of him. |
Seen the light
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Tue Aug-11-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #65 |
70. I agree with this 100% |
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The Obama administration has completely and utterly fumbled the health care debate that I happen to support them on. Their message people need to be fired and they really SHOULD start from scratch with explaining this, but I unfortunately think it's too late for that.
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JVS
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Wed Aug-12-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #65 |
74. You'd think DU would grasp the difference between the words "once" and "never" |
stillcool
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Wed Aug-12-09 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #65 |
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people can't grasp ideas...it has to be limited to Yes or No, and obviously has to be repeated ad nauseam so every one can catch up.
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itsrobert
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Tue Aug-11-09 03:35 PM
Response to Original message |
67. I think all that eat "Pan" Pizza should all chip in |
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That's only fair. That's how we do it at work. And if there is any left over we offer it to the others.
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Hutzpa
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Tue Aug-11-09 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #67 |
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you gotto be kiddin, me eat left overs.....you're mad...:evilgrin:
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Hansel
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Tue Aug-11-09 04:25 PM
Response to Original message |
73. I can't recall him ever saying he was in favor of "single payer pans". |
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In fact, I don't remember him talking about pans at all.
During the presidential campaign he never said he was in favor of a single payer plan. I think what he ran on when he ran for president is what is relevant here.
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vaberella
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Wed Aug-12-09 01:28 PM
Response to Original message |
75. True. As a candidate the President NEVER supported single payer. |
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He did say in a town hall 3 years BEFORE running that if they started from scratch and if they had both houses. We aren't starting from scratch even though they have both houses.
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Jakes Progress
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Wed Aug-12-09 01:44 PM
Response to Original message |
78. Politicians don't lie - they campaign. nt |
TheKentuckian
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Wed Aug-12-09 01:55 PM
Response to Original message |
79. How is this dogged sticking to a quote from before the man was even in the Senate |
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even relevant to the conversation. Obama did not run on single payer and never supported it on the national stage. I'm also unclear on the focus for a system that probably doesn't have 10 votes in the Senate and like 90 tops in the House.
Sure, with expending all political capital he could get near a plurality in the House and maybe 35 votes in the Senate but since that won't pass shit either then why all the hand wringing and emotion. I'd love to see it happen to but the support is fucking flimsy in the general population and non-existent in the policy making arena.
You get me some consistent polls that show majority support for dismantling private for profit insurance and I'll say you have a grassroots groundswell for this but if you can't and you can't show me the votes then you are being a stooge for the status quo. Yes, single payer covers everyone. Yes, single payer could work with the money in the system or likely less. Yes, single payer is something that we need to move to in order to control the rate of growth of medical as part of the big pie but their is no real stomach for it in either the public (despite some polls) and entrenched will against it in the legislature.
Again, give me all the polls you like showing public favor but until you can demonstrate the will to kill the insurance industry as it exists today and the acceptance that all current plans are going the way of the dodo then you might as well show me a Zogby or something because the questions being asked don't stand up against the noise machine at all. The only thing I believe is there is a clear majority that favors doing something different if it doesn't cost them anything, including comfort zone.
Obama is pushing for something barely in reach as is. 99% of the time before the last year we would have been doing cartwheels over some regulation. BEING RIGHT ISN'T ENOUGH. You still have to play your hand and bluffing is of very negligible because the guy you're sitting across from can see most or even all of your cards.
They fucking know how many votes we have and have a good idea of the ones that are persuadable and you're not thinking clearly if you miss this. Obama took the most aggressive course of action plausible and has run for two national offices without promising any more than that. Why are you so fiercely holding on to a single old comment but quick to dismiss the plethora of subsequent statements.
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vaberella
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Wed Aug-12-09 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #79 |
81. Because people don't like Obama. n/t |
Hippo_Tron
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Wed Aug-12-09 05:15 PM
Response to Original message |
80. Depends on the meaning of the word "never" |
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Edited on Wed Aug-12-09 05:15 PM by Hippo_Tron
If by "never" you mean never in his lifetime, it is a false statement. If by "never", you mean within the time that he started working on health care reform as President than it is a true statement.
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debbierlus
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Wed Aug-12-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #80 |
87. I think the definition of never is pretty clear. It means NEVER |
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Long ago
Once
In 2003...
That is not never.
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Hippo_Tron
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Wed Aug-12-09 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #87 |
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Edited on Wed Aug-12-09 08:10 PM by Hippo_Tron
Wouldn't you feel kind of petty and stupid if you got up and said "But Mr. President, when you were 12 years old you wrote an essay about how we should have Single Payer!" If that were the case he would've also been wrong to use the word "never" without qualifying it as "never in my adult life". In this case he did more or less the same thing by not qualifying it with "never during my Presidency".
People use the word "never" in colloquial speech in the context that Obama did all of the time. I don't think the intent was to deceive anybody, I think the intent was to make it clear that as President he has not supported Single-Payer.
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polichick
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Wed Aug-12-09 05:17 PM
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82. Well, if he never said it he damn well SHOULD have! nt |
vaberella
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Wed Aug-12-09 06:39 PM
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85. Before he was in the Senate. As a Senator, Candidate, and President he has not. |
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I think he came to realize that it would be impossible to pass when in the Congress. What one says before politics normally changes when you are embroiled in the political climate, for many situations. And when it comes to universal health care he would never have been able to fully distinguish himself with that. He'd either turn into another Kucinich--which would never win a Presidential Democratic ticket or Presidency because of the "other side." Not that Kucinich isn't the shizzite and know what he's talking about---because I agree with him 90% of the time; but because the nation will see him as 150% radical if they saw Obama has 100% radical.
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Arkana
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Wed Aug-12-09 07:03 PM
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88. I believe he did say it--but he also said during the campaign that |
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in the current political climate there's no fucking way we'd get it. You think they're screaming NOW? Can you imagine if all the versions of the bill were single-payer?
So he is in favor of single-payer--in the sense that if he was building a system from the ground up, that's what he'd make it. But we've got an entrenched system here, albeit a shitty one.
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stillcool
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Wed Aug-12-09 07:55 PM
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is that he was in favor of Universal Health Care, but it would take many steps to get there. In other words, now, in this current reality..he has never been in favor of single-payer. Difficult I know. Since True or False is the only answer that is acceptable.. I say True.
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Sun May 05th 2024, 03:06 PM
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