A lot of us have white relatives who believe that all government does is take their money

[CreekDog]

and give it to black and brown people.

ever since i was little i heard this. (thankfully many close family members hated racism and taught me differently)

so now, Obama comes along and wants to do something about health care.

among the ignorant that i have met, are any details going to matter?

aren't they just going to think what they've always thought?

and isn't that why they are so excited and so angry?

at least when Clinton tried to pull it off, his whiteness confused some of them a little.

but with Obama, come on! they have no doubt. i'm assuming that all the times i've heard relatives and other ignorant people in my midst say that Jesse Jackson would "give everything to the blacks" that these same people are thinking the same about Obama.

sometimes i just wonder if these people see this like i see a football game...i see the colors that are worn and that's how i know who i like.

just wondering. so yes, i think a lot of this is racial, i do. some minds have changed over the years and many racists have died -but not all. this stuff isn't left behind in mere decades. and those that are most likely to see this as an us versus them racial equation are not going to be convinced about health care on the basis of facts.

just ranting now as i think back to all the things even family members have said about black people and jewish people and immigrants over the years. i'm thinking about all the times people said racist things to me thinking i would agree with them because i am white. many of them are still out there and alive and undoubtedly still thinking as backwardly as they always have.

:rant:

[RandomThoughts]

1. Point out they are being used to fight a race war, by people in a class war hurting them.

Walk them through this formula.

They go to work, part of their wage goes to them, part of their wage goes to taxes, and part of their wage goes to pay for health care.

That part that goes to health care, a part of it pays for lobbyist to set social policies that CEOs like.

Part of the money that goes to pay for health care goes so one CEO can make half a billion dollars a year.

Part of the money goes to pay people like Glenn Beck to create anger so people will be scared.

Part of the money goes to buy a politician so they can take larger portions of the money a person pays for health care.

Part of the money goes to name a stadium or a park, so people will think the insurance companies are nice and kind, when they are just after the money.

Part of it goes to media or PR trying to make people think the problem is government.

Corporate systems take a slice of payments just like a tax does, Who do they give it to? Some goes to people with shares of stock, many go to 'friends of theirs' by laundering money with million dollar offices, and some goes to lavish salaries. And if you think when I say shareholders, I mean pension funds, the banking sector makes sure pensions are wiped out with bubbles. So that payment gets put back into the CEO and upper class wallets also.

If they have a need for an 'us or them', just move them to class 'us or them', and they will implode their own side. Although I think it is best for people to live in moderation instead of contention.

What is a better thing, a person of color or not, getting some health care from their taxes, or one person getting half a billion dollars a year from their taxes? When they say "neither its their money", then bring up that if there is a public option, then those crazy obscene payments to CEOs would have to be lower for them to be able to compete. The ideas they like, free market principles at work.

If a CEO makes half a billion a year, pay someone 20 million, and they will find you someone that can do a better job for only 5 Million a year. That is an example of competition. Where someone can bid for that guys job because the club is not a closed system that protects itself for profit for itself, but the system is so corrupt, nobody that controls things like that want lower pay for a CEO, because it is a buddy system where they are all scraping as much off the top without stopping anyone else from doing the same thing. It is monopoly price setting not competition. And that will change.

Many good people make lots of money, but the system that maintains such payments is skewed, and it comes from a tax from people.

[CreekDog]

3. You are right about everything except in thinking that I can reason with ignorant racism

I haven't figured out how to reason with ignorance unless the person actually wants to change.

[provis99]

9. you can't reason with those idiots

Just tell them Obama does have a secret plan to give everything to blacks. At least it will shut them up from shouting in your ear, since they aren't going to change their minds anyways.

[CreekDog]

11. my step grandmother once told me there was going to be a race war

i asked her which side she was going to take.

nothing else i have ever said shut her up. :eyes:

[RandomThoughts]

10. Well it is just a thought.

But the racism has nothing to do with the group they do not like, it has to do with them thinking they deserve more, and that other group is the problem they do not have it.

Unfortunately alot of racism is side by side with selfishness, it requires lack of caring component. So sometimes showing that things like racism are just created to keep them from seeing what is going on, you can reach their core motivation, although that motivation is not always good, but at least they will be thinking as they are still selfish.

And if a person can't ignorantly blame another group, and they do have to think, they will better also think on many aspects of selfishness. So it does lesson that in the long run also.

[BlooInBloo]

2. *GASP* But... but.... we say "it's just a few bad apples"!!!

You're killing the lie dude - ixnay on the ruthtay!

[rudy23]

4. I've always said that taxes and private vs. public are racial issues at their core.

It all centers around that meme you mention. I'm very well aware of it. To the average repuke, 98% of their tax money goes to welfare.

[CreekDog]

6. and if they think that, how on earth will any fact change their mind?

they've already made up their mind to believe a lie, to believe a most preposterous lie.

i've pretty much stopped arguing with them if they won't discuss things on the basis of fact other than to warn them that i disagree and not to assume i agree with them.

[rudy23]

13. Yep. Taxes, and the public vs. private debate are faith based, racial, tribal issues

The sooner we realize it, the sooner we can think of a strategy for dealing with it.

[NewJeffCT]

5. Are the roads paved & maintain just for black & brown people?

If you have public utilities, are they only for black & brown people?

Are national parks like Yellowstone & the Grand Canyon only for black & brown people?

Is Hoover Dam (and hundreds of other dams) only for the benefit of black & brown people?

sometimes people don't think about how much benefit the government really provides sometimes.

[CreekDog]

7. You are arguing on the basis of reason and fact...it will fall on deaf ears with these people

if they were amenable to reason, they wouldn't believe such nonsense in the first place.

until they are open to changing that disposition, it is pointless. the only useful thing to do is ask them if they are willing to discuss things based on reason, if they are, you can proceed, if not, what's the point?

thus, if they say ludicrous things during your discussion about Obama's race or whatever, don't enable them, cut them off and say you will not argue with ignorance.

seriously.

if they want to talk about their ignorance i won't let them.

[tridim]

8. And then a year later they'll realize that it's actually helping them.

Checkmate.

[TheKentuckian]

12. It is almost impossible to have productive conversations when you can't even agree on the basic

facts.

The only way to make any headway when you are in two different universes with wholly different physics and concepts of time and space is to make a point based on their own bullshit and even then you usually get wordless blinking and more or less "I'll bring that back to ya. They then go back to their bogus source and come back with the same crap.

The new lockup default protocol is to advise that they want to talk about something else or respect the relationship and don't want to lose it in anger. Any inane bullshit to avoid acceptance of reality in an all effort to hold on to a pack of lies.

These people aren't mislead, it is willful. They believe exactly as they want and refuse any data that would upset those beliefs. At some point, the ignorance can no longer be coddled, accepted, or ignored. At some point, the needs of the people and the nation must be tended to. At some point, if the ground won is not given then it must be taken.

[bertman]

14. Oh how I identify with your rant, CreekDog! Only life's experiences can change some of

those attitudes. Unfortunately, some of the thicker ones will not see the light even when the evidence is clear and right in front of them.

Don't stop trying though. Use some of the thoughts that have been posted here. You never know when one of your comments will be THE ONE that makes that person think a different way.

[burning rain]

15. I don't often hear such wicked talk.

Most of the righties I deal with are decent, non-racist, mainstream conservatives who view poor folks of all colors as vermin who can die in the gutter for all they care.

[LibDemAlways]

16. I have relatives who firmly believe that black people are

all on welfare and that they use their food stamp allowance to buy steak and lobster. Nothing you could say or do could convince them otherwise.

[CreekDog]

17. when i was less than 10 years old, many of my relatives told me this

over and over and over and over. :banghead:

when i was less than 10 years old!

when i was less than 10 years old in South Philadelphia my friend Billy told me about black people moving into his neighborhood and called them the n-word.

kids aren't born to say such things, i would bet lots of money his parents taught him to say it.