End of life issues threaten to unravel health care reform.

[cleveramerican]

These issues are not easy ones.
They are however easy to demagogue over.

Death panels now are safely hidden behind insurance company walls.
Drag them out into the light of day, expose them.


We need to speak to the nation honestly and forthrightly about some of the most tricky political issues ever to come across the national stage.
We may lose some friends and we may make some true enemies, but in the end we will win respect for having the courage to turn and face these things.


A few weeks ago I would have said abortion or illegal alien issues would be the thing most likely to unravel reform.
I now think end of life issues are much more divisive and widely misunderstood.

[depakid]

1. Really?

My take is that- while it was probably tone deaf to begin with, what it's resulted in is getting the loonies to jump quite a bit too far.

As with the Stephen Hawking thing.

Goes to show that it's hard predict the dynamics- especially when there are irrational people driving the "debate."

[BOSSHOG]

2. And yet

an organization which profits from end of life counseling, wills, living trusts etc ... advertises heavily on right wing radio. limbaugh and beck push it so it must be a good thing to them.

"End of life" is just another way to stir the unwashed to express fake outrage and indignation, and thats very sad.

[cleveramerican]

3. These issues are real as hell

To minimize these questions assures defeat.

To minimize the fear, the difficulty, the pain, the sadness,the costs associated with "end of life" issues makes us come off an arrogant and uncaring.


You do all that with the word "fake".
Some portion certainly is fake, but the larger portion is real as hell.

[Jennicut]

4. None of us minimized the issues, in fact the Dems in the House

and one Rethug thought these issues were important enough to include them in versions of the health care legislation being worked on.
The fear is driven by right wing loons and the older, elderly Americans who hated Obama to begin with easily believe it. Simple as that.

[cleveramerican]

6. you could not be more wrong

simple as that.

I agree that right wing nuts lit the fuse.

but the widespread fear and uncertainty is the TNT.

The fear is nearly universal, much more deep and real than you care to admit.

[Jennicut]

7. I argued with my conservative father about it yesterday

There is no reasoning with these people, there is no way to confront fears that are not real except in their minds. Will we lose older Dems? I doubt it. These people were never for Obama to begin with. The irony is that as a diabetic I face drops in my coverage way more the my 63 year old father ever will. Like I said, there is no reasoning with people that do not want to be reasoned with.

[depakid]

8. Seems like what we're dealing with is a case of psychological projection

Unclever and uninsightful, yet arrogant.

Wonder where that comes from?

[cleveramerican]

10. dismissing peoples legitimate concerns...

as right wing conspiracy is psychological projection of a different kind, and much more damaging to our larger goal.

[depakid]

13. How is it that the members of DU fora put it?

Thanks for your concern? Something like that.

[dave29]

5. Wrong.

Every point we make, they will have a counter-accusation, and it will be false. There will always be a subset of people who will not trust "our" side.

To those whom are open, they will seek out the facts, and we will continue to repeat them. It is obvious to anyone whom has had insurance or insurance issues where the "death panels" currently reside. We can continue to point that out.

Engaging in useless attempts, however, to dive into the mire on this issue would be counterproductive, and a waste of precious time, as it would continue to raise the ire of those who seek to derail reform.

[cleveramerican]

9. thats the problem...

There are no facts for our side to rally behind.Everything anybody says is subject to change
There is no bill. There are 5. None of them are finalized.
Its down to our rumors against their rumors, not enough facts on any side from where I'm sitting.
Reasonable doubt is a given in this political environment

[Sarah Ibarruri]

12. Then why don't we push in favor of passing whatever Obama wants?

Or is that not a good idea, and if so, why not?

[cleveramerican]

19. what exactly does he want?

He has been pretty vague up to this point.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

20. Attainable health care for all, paid by what's now going into monstrous defense spending

and by the rich, who haven't been paying taxes since the Repugs began exempting them from taxes via every Repug administration we've had since Nixon.

[dave29]

15. there are no death panels.

That is a fact.

[cleveramerican]

16. they are disguised as insurance companies

[Sarah Ibarruri]

11. I'm against sending money to bomb pregnant moms and children.... do my desires not count? nt

[cleveramerican]

18. your feelings about the war are pretty meaningless to the current healtcare debate

but you already knew that.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

21. And what do you want in the way of health care? nt

[cleveramerican]

27. I want the most public transparent system that can be agreed upon

[Sarah Ibarruri]

28. So you don't really care what health care exists or doesn't. If you do, what do you want? nt

[cleveramerican]

30. I care deeply, but that is secondary to what we, as a nation, can agree upon

and I also know it will happen no matter what I think.
If I refuse to compromise, I will likely be marginalized.

I think what we end up with is all that matters.
Sounds rather cold I know.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

33. Once again you have refused to respond. I think it's quite clear what side you're on.

Thanks.

[cleveramerican]

35. I am not on the fantasy side

I respond, you repeat. Which part did you not understand?
I gave you my best guess what is going to happen
I am a handicapper, not a cheerleader.
How you or I "feel" about it is not what is being discussed here.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

14. Are living wills and advance directives really THAT controversial?

:shrug:
They've been in use for some time and AFAIK never been hugely publicized or controversial. Now somebody wants to allow Medicare to pay for people who wish to voluntarily receive counseling about living wills and advance directives and suddenly they're now referred to as "death panels"?
:wtf:

[cleveramerican]

17. those who frame the argument usually win

Death panel is exactly the sort of term that frames the argument on their terms and reduces us to playing defense.


We have got to grab hold of this mix of hopes and fears and untangle it in full view of the public.
No easy trick.
The president himself has got to lead, forcefully, and right now or else no one here will recognize what comes out as "reform".

[Sarah Ibarruri]

22. Let's ask him if he wants single-payer health care and see what he answers :-) nt

[Proud Liberal Dem]

23. Him who?

:shrug:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

24. Clever, the OP. nt

[Proud Liberal Dem]

32. Oh o.k.

I was confused for a moment.

[cleveramerican]

25. Single payer is a nice fantasy , buts its not within reach at this pint in time

single payer is dead, deceased, no longer alive.
Nobody , no elected official is even calling for it, for this round of legislation

[Sarah Ibarruri]

26. Okay, so my question was, where do you stand on Obama's health care reform? nt

[cleveramerican]

31. There are 5 bills in play, none of them are final.

so the answer is I have no idea where I stand on Obama's plan cause he currently doesn't have one.

Nobody can possibly rally around a plan that doesn't exist yet, thats why its looking like its slipping away.

[TheKentuckian]

29. There is no way to proof yourself from bullshit frames

As long as we have been dealing with these drooling zombies it would seem that we'd all know that facts and concrete evidence fail to ever move them. They will not believe anything that doesn't come from who they bought the lies from in the first place and even then they'll often still just throw the source under the bus and continue to believe whatever they choose to.

This ignorance is extremely willful in nature, they are seeking misinformation and then clinging to it regardless of any objective reality.

I say fuck 'em though. They can sit on the respirator in agony or have their plugs pulled when they are holding on to life with every fiber. If they want a living will they can take that out of their prescription or food money, since that is how they apparently want it. That money is probably better used on someone that wants care and isn't fixing to die in a couple months.

The reality of this is that many seniors don't want anyone else to be covered and they just want every resource poured into preserving their unproductive asses so they can leave the world as close as possible to their supposed "good old days". They don't give a shit about their children or grandchildren. They want to dominate the debate but want to go by their own facts, often invented out of the air.

[zeos3]

34. Read the testimony at the link

Let's see if we can drag this to the light of day.

Dr. Peeno's testimony is from 1996. She was on a private insurers death panel.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6295532

[jasi2006]

36. Seniors are f***king up agian!

They gave us George Bush in 2000 and now they are going to thwart the nation's chances for decent healthcare reform, mainly because they are too selfish, too ignorant to listen and learn, and too scared by what Limbaugh and FOX and Palin tell them. Get a grip folks! You are living on Medicare...just like me (69) and you are satified with your healthcare but your children and grandchildren are suffering under this system NOW...not in the future...NOW!!! It's not about the future...it's about what is happening NOW!!!

[Orsino]

37. Lying media oppose health-care reform by inventing "end-of-life issues"...

...among other tactics.

[lunatica]

38. I rec'd your thread because people have unrec'd it.

Your thought are valid and should be discussed, not dismissed