Is half a loaf better than none? Maybe. BUT CRUMBS WITH RAT POISON ARE NOT

[Armstead]

This health care process has given new life to the Centrist cliches like "Half a loaf is better than nothing" and "Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good."

Okay maybe a half a loaf is better than nothing. But bread crumbs laced with rat poison is not.

Crumbs...Some requests that the insurance industry be nicer to their customers...Pretty Please.

RAT POISON -- Killing the idea of any form of universally available public health coverage WHILE FORCING US TO BUY THE CRAPPY Overpriced POLICIES SHOVED DOWN OUR THROATS BY THE INSURANCE INDUSTRY.

More rat poison -- Taking a rare opportunity to actually make a positive difference for health care, and totally blowing it so that we are stuck with an ultimately creuler entrenched mess for years and decades to come.

Unless the Democratic leadership gets off their collective asses soon, they will be giving a huge gift to the insurance industry while screwing thee and me in the process.

Change you can believe in? Maybe if you are an overpaid insurance executive or lobbyist.

[CTyankee]

1. My heels are dug in on the public option. Period.

No more giveaways to the insurance industry!

I want creeping socialism, not more creepy corporatism!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

2. My analogy for the 2 party system is it currently exists is the moldy bread vs turd plate.

If you're locked up in a room and told that you'll be there for an indefinite amount of time. Then your jailer offers you only two meal choices for your time there. A) moldy bread on a plate B) a turd on a plate. Which one will you go for? (The turd plate of course being the repukes).

[jgraz]

3. I hate to say it, but we need to kill the current healthcare proposals

It's absolutely clear that Medicare for All is the minimum we should accept.

[Davis_X_Machina]

11. Be prepared to wait another twenty years.

Meanwhile, in the real world, in a real state with an actual universal health insurance program in place since 2006 with a.) a purchase mandate, b.) fines, and c.) no public option, a recent Boston Globe poll found respondents 2-1 in support.
Repeal polled 11%.

Is it the best plan possible? Of course not. Is it improving actual people's non-theoretical lives -- apparently so.

Incidentally, the prisons aren't full of protesters and the state legislature that passed the program in 2006 remains 7-1 Democratic.

[jgraz]

14. "Real world" is usually code for corporatist wealth transfer.

BTW, nice cherry picking of the data. Assuming you're in favor of government by polls, you neglect to include the fact that a plurality of respondents said that the state could not afford to continue the law as it stands.

Poll on the repeal of ANY law and you'll likely get a response around 11%. This law is no different. The question is not whether it's better than the amoral fraud passing for healthcare in most of the country, the question is whether it's enough and whether it's sustainable.

Given the choice between locking in a minimal, unsustainable change and waiting for something real, I'll choose the latter. I doubt it will take 20 years, given how close the current system is to collapse.

[dionysus]

17. real word, or realpolitick, in this case, means if you refuse to settle for 1% less of what you want

you get nothing. look it up sometime. because, hey, i'd love single payer, ok? but i'd like to you to illustrate for me, noting how hard it is for even the fucking dems to get a good public option in.. how the *hell* do you expect single payer to pass? is a magic unicorn going to pass it?

here's how i predict you guys would react;

bill passed with PO; it's not single payer, obama is a corporate whore!!11!

no bill passes; look, there's no reform at all, obama is a corporate whore!!1!11!11.
:eyes:

[jgraz]

18. You really think that any of the current healthcare bills gives you 99% of what you want?

Really? Ninety-nine percent? That's a nine followed by another nine. 1 point away from everything you could possibly hope for.

Please tell me your expectations aren't nearly that low.

[dionysus]

22. i think you know that i was refering to an all or nothing approach.

but rather than quibble about that, can you address the content of my whole statement? i think everyone here is for single payer, but it's clear that it doesn't have close to the support in congress it needs to pass. i'd rather get something that will help people that we can build upon, rather than nothing.

i think that you won't be satisfied with anything less than single payer, and that you're setting yourself up to be pissed.

the more i think about this, you can blame the repukes, you can blame the senate, you can blame obama himself all you want. i think the problem with health care reform is a symptom of what our whole system has become (and has probably been that way our entire lives). we may be political junkies here on DU, and even the freepers might be involved (in the exact wrong direction, but we know that), but for every DUer or every freeper, there's probably 5 times as many people who aren't informed, don't care, don't give a fuck. if they can afford beer and their choice of TV, they just don't care. only in an environment like that can corporations steal out in the open and no one can stop them. we can scream and yell, but the numbers aren't there. the cliched term of sheep really applies.

that's why i will be gratefull if we can start out with something that helps a decent amount of people. because until our citizenry is informed and involved in sufficient numbers, this whole endeavor will be like rolling a boulder uphill.

[jgraz]

23. Yes, but I was not.

I'm referring to a crap-or-something approach. If we get an unsustainable boondoggle that does nothing but enrich the insurance companies, we're better off where we are today.

[dionysus]

24. well, i am still pinning my hopes that they can't be stupid enough to blow it. if they do, i can't

disagree with any of your sentiments. however, i don't think obama himself did all this to get into office and willfully screw the country. he seems good on this, the house is definately good on this, i cannot understand what the hell is the problem in the senate.

and if they do pass something, the debate here will start all over on is it good enough. i know some will be pissed at anything non single payer. i just hope we get something that'll help a lot of peopel and get the ball rolling in the right direction.

[Armstead]

27. 1 percent less? Budsky, the public option is already about 25 percent of what I swant

Many people want to get the health insurers completely out of the picture so that healthcare can actually focus on health care -- not exorbitant profits for non-productive insurance oligarchs.

No, we were told that won;t fly. Instead they told us that a compromise would be a public option, while private insurers would remain in the drivers seat.

Now we're told that even the public option is either not going to happen or will be so watered down that it won;t exist for most people.

1 percent? hell we're down to about 25 percent of what I and many others want.

[dionysus]

29. i agree with your sentiments but if you think the health insurance industry can be wiped out that

easily... that's just not possible right now... i wish it were.

and "what you're told" is either shit people on DU editorialized, or written by the MSM. i'll eat a ton of crow if i am wrong, but i think people are flipping out way too soon.

if i get egg all over my face, i'll admit it. maybe i am too optimistic, i really hope not.

[Armstead]

31. I hope you are right too...I'd love to be wrong onm this

[ChiciB1]

35. I NEVER Use The Word HOPE Anymore.... Haven't For Many Years Now...

SO, I can only wish you're correct, however if I were to bet, I think INSURANCE COMPANIES will be the big WINNER, lose nothing much of what they already have and may find some way to "scam" the system even further!

Many here "hate" John Edwards, but him saying that you shouldn't sit down to dinner with "those" people, because they'll eat all the food, STILL rings true!!

From what I'm seeing RIGHT NOW, I see the BIG GUYS getting "buttered bread" as usual! One can only wish that Olbermann will be listened to, and I'm certainly one who supports him AND Rachel! And for me, I'd add Dylan Ratigan to the bunch, he's been calling out for REAL REFORM, not what is on the table now. Been doing it for some time too! Calling many Communistic Corporations!

Maybe not in those exact words, but very close!

[ChiciB1]

36. Just Heard Ratigan Call It CORPORATE COMMUNISM Again!! n/t

[ipaint]

21. See link for poll

The real world being referred to is 80% white and almost 60% making over 30,000 a year.

[ipaint]

20. 506 adults answered the phone.

Do you think the Massachusetts Health Insurance Reform Law should be repealed, continued as the law currently stands, or continued but with some changes made?

Repealed- 11%
Continue as is- 22%
Continue but make changes- 57%
Don't know- 10%

Top three changes-
Reduce costs/affordability- 30%
Expand benefits and coverage- 23%

Only 9% were paying for coverage on their own

80% of respondents white
5% black
7% hispanic

58% of respondents make over $30,000 a year.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/2009-releases/fifty-nine-percent-support-massachusetts-2006-health-reform-law.html

[dflprincess]

39. I agree

The insurance companies can't survive much longer without the massive cash infusion Congress & Obama want to give them to shore up the crooked system we have now.

I've said before that, if all these politicians who claim they'd support single payer if "we were starting from scratch" or "if the time was right" had fought for it, we'd be getting a better bill - even if it was a compromise.

But starting from a point of "How do we save the insurance companies and those campaign contributions they make?" made it pretty clear than very few of them were really interested in actual reform from the start.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. Denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions?

Thing of the past.

Health insurance deciding to just drop you when you get sick?

Thing of the past.

Being unable to afford health care?

Thing of the past.

Coin collections at the 7-11 because little Susie has childhood cancer and her parents can't afford to treat her?

Thing of the past.

People bitter about Obama?

That will live on forever.

[rudy23]

5. How will a weak public option fix those things?

That's why people are upset---the proposal Obama is pushing does none of those things.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. Lurk moar.

Obama's pushing all of these things.

[SpartanDem]

9. The PO wouldn't do those things regulation will

no pre existing conditions, no recession and caps out of pockets expenses would be part of the regulations on insurers

[rudy23]

12. What about skyrocketing premiums? What will it do about those?

Also, I believe the term is "rescission."

What kind of caps are the regulations going to put on out of pocket expenses?

[shimmergal]

25. The trouble is--

what are the chances these regulations will be vigorously enforced?

The way Congresscritters have rolled over for insurance companies so far, I wouldn't count on it.

[Engineer4Obama]

26. So we shouldn't pass regulation because it won't be enforced?

Isn't that sort of a self defeating argument?

[Cha]

13. What?! PO is for all of those

Goodies.

[dionysus]

16. you saw what kind of PO the final bill has? amazing.

[saracat]

8. Baloney. Wanna try to "define"what the PO in the final bill will say?

The president has indicated that the PO under considration will NOT be available to ALL people, yet everyone else will be forced to not only buy the private insurance but dance to their tune. The insurance companies have already figured out the loophole in the prexisiting condition clause. And what is the defintion of "Affordable" ? I am sure you can't answer any of these definitons. Some will settle unquestioningly for ANYTHING. That is the defintion of a sheep. And lets not even mention the deal with big Pharma.ALL people will have to pay the mandate.The government will only be covering those the insurance companies don't want because they cost them too much!
I am "bitter" about the fact we have yet to be given real healthcare reform and this is being presented to us under that guise.

[Armstead]

10. REAL healthcare reform? A thing of the past.

You think the insurers are going to play nice once they get past this little hurdle? They'll find new and creative ways to avoid pre-existing conditions and continuing to jack up rates on their new captive market. The dumbasses in Congress and the WH won't even put in price controls or meaningful regulations.

people will still be collecting pennies for little Suzie AND more people will be going into debt to pay for health insurance they can't afford.

REAL healthcare reform? A thing of the past.

[dflprincess]

38. Your health insurance may not drop you but

they will be allowed to jack your rates up to 11% of your income and you could be facing some pretty hefty annual deductibles (plus all the stuff not covered like dental and vision).

You may wind up with insurance but, thanks to the high out pockets, you may still not be able to afford care. Same system we have now - except you'll be forced to contribute to a private insurer who won't cover your claims.

[depakid]

7. I've yet to see any proposal that deals with ERISA preemption

Which means tens of millions of Americans still won't have a remedy (and there won't be a deterrent) for denial of claims. Even after... 2013 (which in itself is an insult, considering the scope and gravity of the problem).

[dionysus]

15. i am dissappointed that you seem resigned to a sellout or a failure.

enough so to use that tired "huh huh huh huh Change you can believe in?" crap.

amazes me that people could tolerate 8 years of bush but can't even wait for a bill to be settled before pushing failure. in case you haven't noticed, this is as close as health reform has even gotten.

[Armstead]

28. The same Weasal Faction of democrats who rolled over for Bush are now rolling over for Big Insurance

[dionysus]

30. i agree with you on that. but i think we can get something good through.

the president,the house, and most of our senators are good on this.

[Pab Sungenis]

19. Agreed.

The Baucus bill is the rat poison in this effort. We MUST stop it in committee. Call the Democrats on the committee and demand it die.

[Craftsman]

32. Everytime the gov. throws the middle and working class a bone, they give Wall st . a steak

[Armstead]

33. Great way to sum it up

[Craftsman]

34. And both parties share in the blame.

I have yet to see any pro worker trade deals or nafta being looked at.

[ChiciB1]

37. Again... Good Comment... I'm With You... n/t