US undertaking largest withdrawal of troops and materiel since Vietnam

[HamdenRice]

I posted this before and I think either Prosense or Bloo did also, and all times it sank like a rock in GD. It seems that this actual news about what's happening in Iraq conflicts with many disappointed people's hard wired belief that the war is not ending. Anyways:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/09/world/middleeast/09pullout.html?_r=1

Leaving Iraq Is a Feat That Requires an Army

By MARC SANTORA
Published: October 8, 2009

JOINT BASE BALAD, Iraq — There is no more visible sign that America is putting the Iraq war behind it than the colossal operation to get its stuff out: 20,000 soldiers, nearly a sixth of the force here, assigned to a logistical effort aimed at dismantling some 300 bases and shipping out 1.5 million pieces of equipment, from tanks to coffee makers.

It is the largest movement of soldiers and matériel in more than four decades, the military said.

...

But just as the buildup in the Kuwaiti desert before the 2003 invasion made it plain that the United States was almost certain to go to war, the preparations for withdrawal just as clearly point to the end of the American military role here. Reversing the process, even if Iraq’s relative stability deteriorates into violence, becomes harder every day.

The scale of the withdrawal is staggering. Consider a comparison with the Persian Gulf war in 1991: it lasted 1,012 hours, or about six weeks, and when it was over, Lt. Gen. William G. Pagonis, in charge of the Army’s logistical operations at the time, wrote a book, “Moving Mountains” (Harvard Business Press Books, 1992), about the challenges of moving soldiers and equipment in and out of the theater.

[lamp_shade]

1. K & R

[timeforpeace]

60. Doesn't say coming home. Could be heading to Afghanistan.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[peace13]

5. Obama is doing what he said he would do.

If you remember, Obama campaigned on the idea of getting out of Iraq and ramping up and 'winning' in Afghanistan. You have to admit that he is doing what he said he would do regardless if you think that it is a good idea.

[mopinko]

6. +1

i know there are saner people in the military structure than these modern day crusaders. lets hope they prevail.

[DCBob]

8. umm, it isn't hard to figure out Obama is fulfilling a campaign promise..

"unless you are willfully playing stupid".

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NYC_SKP]

14. You must be kidding me? Where do you get your "news"? I'm going to delete your crazy reply, yep.

Fer cryin' out loud!!!

[vaberella]

40. What did they say? You can pm me. Ugh, I always miss the freeper stuff.

I always see deleted message and I'm like...what was going on....:D

[NYC_SKP]

59. Well,

Actually, I didn't get a chance to read it either.

I was just having fun posting to the deleted thread.

I wonder what it said, too!

:hi:

[NYC_SKP]

16. And another thing: Where on earth did you get your username???

"Lonesome Freeper"???

:rofl:

[gademocrat7]

3. K&R

[Stuart G]

4. K & R

[lunatica]

7. Good

This is very good news. I'm glad I saw it before it sank too. Thanks.

[yourguide]

10. Thanks for reposting

I missed this one until today.

[backscatter712]

11. Progress!!!

Bout time the clusterfuck in Iraq got wound down!

Let's hope all the thinking and pondering Obama's doing about Afghanistan leads him to do the same there.

[architect359]

12. Good news. K&R! (eom)

[Clio the Leo]

13. Thanks for reminding us..... we def. need it NT

[Peacetrain]

15. A really really big K & R

[Joe Chi Minh]

17. How about the mercenaries, super-embassy and other major, new US infrastructure?

[HamdenRice]

18. What kind of personnel work in embassies?

I thought that diplomats work in embassies, and the replacement of soldiers with diplomats is a good thing.

:shrug:

As for the size of the embassy, that was set by the Bush administration. Hopefully, we'll be able to sell off or lease much of it when it's completed now that it won't be needed.

[Joe Chi Minh]

33. Did I say that the diplomats would be replaced by soldiers? I hope that your "hopefully"

proves to be on the mark, but you make no reference to the mercenaries who are reported to have replaced the military, for obvious political, reasons. Or the maintaining of the numerous military bases Bush had built in Iraq. Are you hopeful that they will be relinquished? What is your assessment of the situation and plans for Iraq?

I think this is likely to be an incendiary topic in the eyes of our masters, so if I respond to you further, it's likely to be by messaging.

[billh58]

64. The snip from

the news source stated in the OP specifically mentions the dismantling of around 300 military bases, and the rest will be handed over to the Iraqis. The number of private contractor mercenaries, and their duties, will be determined and controlled more and more by the Iraqis.

[Joe Chi Minh]

77. Thank you for that important information.

[Politicub]

45. Jeez... How about your face? This is good news!

Can people not see the good in anything that happens in the Obama administration?

Oh, and don't forget Poland :eyes:

[Joe Chi Minh]

78. Many of my posts point out Obama's way of doing the right thing, by indirections.

He is a subtle man, and knows that his people are powerless to harm him, while no American president can ever be sure that his opponents can't. So, he affects to comply with them at first, incurs the outrage of his followers, and then gets what they want done in a low-key way.

No. It strikes me that it's people like you who are the liability to Obama's administration, by insisting on blind, uncritical acceptance of everything he does and doesn't do. Presumably, because it's all about emotions to you, never about dispassionate analysis.

[Politicub]

80. You are casting judgement on someone you know nothing about

Mainly myself. Being supportive of the good that the administration does, and pushing for more isn't "blind acceptance." It's appreciating that progress is being made, and realizing that there is much work to be done.

It helps no one to be a perpetual suffering DU martyr.

[Joe Chi Minh]

81. I seem to recall it was you that began the wingeing. I was pointing out the folly of your post.

No more. To quote the Freeway Blogger's response to the toothless Savage, when the latter said the FB knew nothing about him: "I know what you said".

I am glad of Billh58's correction. It is in no-one's interests for Obama to simply continue the neocons' policies. Not even those of the remaining neocons, did they but know it. Equally, it is in no-one's interest for Obama to fail, so the last thing I want to do, is to make premature, negative judgments about his policies. Although it seems to me that, as things stand, what he has inherited is a poison chalice.

I expect that, had he sacked the top bankers, to refashion the country's economy on more realistic and just lines, a New Deal, the orderly upheaval required would have been described by the Republicans and their hirelings as chaotic, a disaster and the recipe for further disaster. Even while he is doing yeoman's work for the country now, they are virtually describing him as a lord of misrule. It is why I was expecting Obama to purge the MSM of its shameless, corporate control by the Republicans, as a top priority. It may be that he is simply biding his time, building up his track record as a basis for increasingly greater trust on the part of the good guys (including former Republicans) at every level of society.

Remember, by the way, Roosevelt had kudos with the bankers of his day, since they had sought to arrange for him to be assassinated, and he was sparing them the charges of treason they should have faced. They had to pipe down and play along with his policies.

[704wipes]

49. oh, military is probably moving out Halliburton on gov't dime

so as they can keep their balance sheet looking good for Uncle Dicky back in Virginia....

[Joe Chi Minh]

79. Far stranger things have happened in that arena.

[ljm2002]

19. Excellent news...

...thanks for posting.

K&R

[Zoeisright]

20. K&R

:kick:

[yourguide]

21. K & R

[grytpype]

22. Oh, but Kucinich would miracle the troops home overnight!

[HamdenRice]

23. Maybe he could do that by just leaving all that stuff there

No danger in that!

[vaberella]

41. That would be great...bombs, bullets, guns, humvees, knifes...great stuff to leave behind. n/t

[Hissyspit]

62. Nowhere that I know of has Kucinich argued to leave that stuff behind!

Petty character assassination.

[vaberella]

72. ~sigh~ I wasn't speaking about Kucinich...I was responding to the poster above my original post. n/t

[Hissyspit]

73. Whoops. I get it now!

Sorry about that.
:blush:

[Hissyspit]

63. Actually Kucinich has acknowledged logistic realities.

Many times. For both Iraq and Afghanistan. He criticized leaving 35,000-50,000 troops in the country and has argued that troop movement and redistribution is not the same as withdrawal, and that withdrawal should be complete. He has argued that withdrawal should begin immediately, be true withdrawal, and that it should be complete. Whether you agree with that or not, that is not the same as saying that withdrawal should occur magically overnight.

[Cha]

24. Yes, it needs to hammered over and over again

to get some people's attention. This is good news and all part of a work in progress.

[HamdenRice]

25. In other news: Iraqi prisons are being emptied and closed, combat patrols have virtually ended and

US casualties are very, very low -- but those facts are maybe for a different post!

[Cha]

26. When we think back over

the last 6 years of the all the horror leading up to(with the US media's collaboration) the bombing of Iraq and the ensuing bloody years..this is a miracle.

PO did want the War On Iraq in the first place..From October 2002..

<snip>

"What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income - to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression. That's what I'm opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics. Now let me be clear - I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity. He's a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history. I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of Al Qaeda. I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars."

<much more>
http://www.barackobama.com/2002/10/02/remarks_of_illinois_state_sen.php

[leveymg]

71. I don't read that '02 quote by Obama to mean he "did want the war on Iraq in the first place."

He's quite clearly saying the invasion of Iraq was one of the "dumb wars" likely to have terrible consequences for everyone involved, including the U.S. He was right.

So, why do you think he wanted that war?

[mkultra]

27. keep the real news coming Hamden

we need people to counter the smear campaign going on here with real information.

[HamdenRice]

28. Looks like the unrec'ing crew has arrived.

Musn't! Have! News! About! ... Ending of Iraq War! Noooooooo!

You kind of wonder what they go through when they read this?

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vidar]

30. This is good., though we're escalating the fiasco in Afghanistan.

[cherokeeprogressive]

31. I think that's called "out of the frying pan; into the fire". n/t

[vaberella]

44. Obama was always going to go in. That's no surprise.

However he also stated we're reevaluating the issue, so there's no telling where we'll go next.

[butterfly77]

32. K&R!

[grahamhgreen]

34. "largest movement of soldiers and matériel in more than four decades" - larger than the invasion???!

[HamdenRice]

76. Yes -- remember Rumsfeld's "tip of the spear" nonsense

Obviously everything being taken out was at some time brought in, but not in one logistical maneuver. They had 8 years to accumulate this stuff and now they have to withdraw it.

The headline also says largest "withdrawal" which puts the somewhat sloppier language in the article in context.

[ipaint]

35. Too bad private armies are replacing them.

JEREMY SCAHILL: Well, I think what we're seeing, under President Barack Obama, is sort of old wine in a new bottle. Obama is sending one message to the world, but the reality on the ground, particularly when it comes to private military contractors, is that the status quo remains from the Bush era. Right now there are 250 thousand contractors fighting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's about 50 percent of the total US fighting force. Which is very similar to what it was under Bush. In Iraq, President Obama has 130 thousand contractors. And we just saw a 23 percent increase in the number of armed contractors in Iraq. In Afghanistan there's been a 29 percent increase in armed contractors. So the radical privatization of war continues unabated under Barack Obama.

Having said that, when Barack Obama was in the Senate he was one of the only people that was willing to take up this issue. And he put forward what became the leading legislation on the part of the Democrats to reform the contracting industry. And I give him credit for doing that. Because he saw this as an important issue before a lot of other political figures. And spoke up at a time when a lot of people were deafeningly silent on this issue. I've been critical of Obama's position on this because I think that he accepts what I think is a fundamental lie. That we should have a system where corporations are allowed to benefit off of warfare. And President Obama has carried on a policy where he has tried to implement greater accountability structures. We now know, in a much clearer way than we did under Bush, how many contractors we have on the battlefield. He's attempted to implement some form of rules governing contractors. And it has suggested that there should be greater accountability when they do commit crimes.

All of these things are a step in the right direction. But, ultimately, I think that we have to look to what Jan Schakowsky, the congresswoman from Illinois, says. We can no longer allow these individuals to perform what are inherently governmental functions. And that includes carrying a weapon on U.S. battlefields. And that's certainly not where President Obama is right now.

BILL MOYERS: But many people will say of course, the truth, which is he inherited a quagmire from the Bush administration. What's he to do?

JEREMY SCAHILL: Well, there's no question that Obama inherited an absolute mess from President Bush. But the reality is that Obama is escalating the war in Afghanistan right now. And is maintaining the occupation of Iraq. If Obama was serious about fully ending the occupation of Iraq, he wouldn't allow the U.S. to have a colonial fortress that they're passing off as an embassy in Baghdad. Bill, this place is the size of 80 football fields. Who do you think is going to run the security operation for this 80 football field sized embassy? Well, it's mercenary contractors.

BILL MOYERS: So we're supposed to be withdrawing from Iraq. But you're suggesting, in all that you've written, that I've read lately, that we will be leaving a large mercenary force there.

JEREMY SCAHILL: Absolutely. In fact, you're going to have a sizable presence, not only of U.S. forces, certainly in the region, but also in Iraq. These residual forces... I mean, Bill, you remember, during Vietnam, the people who were classified as military advisors. Or analysts. And, in reality, the U.S. was fighting an undeclared war. So, in Iraq, I think that we've seen reports from Jim Miklaszewski, NBC News' Pentagon correspondent. He's quoting military sources saying that they expect to be in Iraq 15 to 20 years in sizable numbers. Afghanistan, though, really is going to become Obama's war. And, unfortunately, many Democrats are portraying it as the good war.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/06052009/transcript4.html

[vaberella]

43. ~sigh~

Ugh. The Embassy was there before Obama. Obama has clearly stated that he wants to help Iraq and not leave it in disarray. I'm fuckin' tired of people who want to leave another Vietnam AND Pakistan. That doesn't improve our standing inthe world it threatens it. We made a mess, the least we can do is try our best to mitigate the problem through nation building. Obama has said he is not sending in more troops, or fighter troops, into Iraq. The article posted in the OP states he's limiting and removing them. The people he's sending in are soldiers but seem to function in the way UN soldiers do to keep the peace. That's the least we can do. Secondly, the issue in Afghanistan is what he campaigned on...he never bloody lied about it---and for people to sort of push this thing lik he's escalating in Afghanistan as though it's some damned surprise irks me. Because he said he would throughout the bloody campaign. Now he's going through meeting after meeting to find out what can be done in Afghanistan without senseless deaths. He's reevaluating his objections. That's sometign to find commendabl considering that clown Bush was ready to go into Iran. I want the war to end far more than than the next one since the war issue always bothered me about O's campaign. However, the mess we're in I don't want us leaving nations in more of a bind and hating us more than they already do. Give them some positives would be nice. Making a mess and leaving it even more of a mess is unacceptable. And I'm seeing you and most of those of the left are advocating just that. And then you people call yourselves humanitarian.

[impik]

36. But, but, but

Obama is not doing anything, and he breaks every campaign promise.

Oh well.

[WheelWalker]

37. K&R

:kick:

[bvar22]

38. I can only applaud this.

K&R

Get the ALL out, including mercs.
NO "residual forces".

[sattahipdeep]

39. Absolutely no idea whatsoever?

BILL MOYERS: Now, many people are like that fellow. They say that these drones are new miracle weapons that enable the United States military to kill the bad guys, as he said, without exposing Americans to danger. There's truth in that, right?

JEREMY SCAHILL: I think that this is sick. Where you turn war, essentially, into a videogame that can be waged by people half a world away. What this does, these drones, is they it sanitizes war. It means that we increase the number of people that don't have to see that war is hell on the ground. And it means that wars are going to be easier in the future because it's not as tough of a sell.

....
The fact is that this man is governing over a policy that is killing a
tremendous number of civilians.

We are indiscriminately killing civilians, according to the UN Human
Rights Council. A report that was just released this week by the UN
says that the United States is indiscriminately killing civilians in
Afghanistan and elsewhere around the world. That should be a
collective shame that we feel in this society. And yet we have
people calling it the good war.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/06052009/transcript4.html

[vaberella]

42. This is in no way supporting this war by any means.

You realize, that we were indiscriminately killing people when our troops were there right?! I'm not understanding the bloody argument----it's stronger to say just end the war. But this argument against the drones doesn't jive with me---because our soldiers weren't that discriminatory. Added to that, our soldiers were also dieing while in this one they aren't. This is not to say I don't feel for the people who are innocents in this, men, women, children and the elderly. The war just needs to end, however we can't omitt the fact that one of the top leaders of the Taliban was killed in Pakistan due to drones. As long as the war goes on people would die...arguing against drone is nonsensical---just argue against the war.

And so far, Obama is making the moves to minimze the war until it's near elimination. Drones don't make the war worse----it was already bloody bad, literally and it would be bad with or without drones. However here, we're progressing to a minimization and hopefully end of this nonsensical. Realize that, please.

[sattahipdeep]

48. spin?

It's the job of experienced, knowledgeable investigative reporters
to throw a monkey wrench into the spin machine?

JEREMY SCAHILL: Well, I think what we're seeing, under
President Barack Obama, is sort of old wine in a new bottle.
Obama is sending one message to the world, but the reality on the
ground, particularly when it comes to private military contractors, is
that the status quo remains from the Bush era. Right now there are
250 thousand contractors fighting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
That's about 50 percent of the total US fighting force. Which is
very similar to what it was under Bush. In Iraq, President Obama
has 130 thousand contractors. And we just saw a 23 percent
increase in the number of armed contractors in Iraq. In Afghanistan
there's been a 29 percent increase in armed contractors. So the
radical privatization of war continues unabated under Barack
Obama.

Having said that, when Barack Obama was in the Senate he was
one of the only people that was willing to take up this issue. And he
put forward what became the leading legislation on the part of the
Democrats to reform the contracting industry. And I give him credit
for doing that. Because he saw this as an important issue before a
lot of other political figures. And spoke up at a time when a lot of
people were deafeningly silent on this issue. I've been critical of
Obama's position on this because I think that he accepts what I
think is a fundamental lie. That we should have a system where
corporations are allowed to benefit off of warfare. And President
Obama has carried on a policy where he has tried to implement
greater accountability structures. We now know, in a much clearer
way than we did under Bush, how many contractors we have on the
battlefield. He's attempted to implement some form of rules
governing contractors. And it has suggested that there should be
greater accountability when they do commit crimes.

....
All of these things are a step in the right direction. But, ultimately, I
think that we have to look to what Jan Schakowsky, the
congresswoman from Illinois, says. We can no longer allow these
individuals to perform what are inherently governmental functions.
And that includes carrying a weapon on U.S. battlefields. And that's
certainly not where President Obama is right now.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/06052009/transcript4.html

[vaberella]

46. This is great news. Much much more left to do but I love this sign. n/t

[McCamy Taylor]

47. And this is going to make Obama's job with the economy much more difficult.

End of war always triggers a recession. Allowances need to be made for slowed economic growth. The GOP will not make those allowances, so the Dems have to be front and center reminding folks that it would be much worse with Bush in office.

[704wipes]

50. 1 of my nephews is assigned to this 'move to kuwait'

So if they just drop the stuff on the other side of the kuwait border and hold up there is it 'really' a withdrawl?

[cliffordu]

68. yep - they store it there and go someplace else.

[winyanstaz]

51. K & R...and what a wonderful news story :)

I am so happy Obama is doing what he promised! I have been heartbroken with all the stuff going on to date and have lost faith in Obama..but this news has re-kindled my support!
I want Obama to do the things we need him to do and this is a wonderful start.
Let's bring all our troops home from around the world and let's all work on getting America strong and healthy again.
America and Americans need to come first for a change.
Thank you Obama for this sign.

[dreamnightwind]

52. sure that's good news, but...

How come nobody here is asking how many of these troops and how much of this stuff is merely being shipped to Afghanistan?

I'm not saying it all is, or that there isn't cause to rejoice in the wind-down of the great mistake that was the Iraq War, but we need to keep in mind that, to a certain extent, war isn't ending, it's just morphing to a different theater, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

[juajen]

70. How true, and no one wins a war in Afghanistan. You know,

those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, or something like that. I hate the Taliban and their cruelty to women, but this wear needs to be won by the Afghans and not by us. After all, they know where the caves and other hiding places are in those mountains.

[Laurab]

53. K&R nt

[flyarm]

54. Pete Seeger ; Bring 'em Home

*I edited and replaced Vietnam with Iraq and Afganistan

Pete Seeger

Bring 'Em Home Lyrics


If you love your Uncle Sam,
Bring them home, bring them home.
Support our boys in Iraq and Afganistan,
Bring them home, bring them home.

It'll make our generals sad, I know,
Bring them home, bring them home.
They want to tangle with the foe,
Bring them home, bring them home.

They want to test their weaponry,
Bring them home, bring them home.
But here is their big fallacy,
Bring them home, bring them home.

I may be right, I may be wrong,
Bring them home, bring them home.
But I got a right to sing this song,
Bring them home, bring them home.

There's one thing I must confess,
Bring them home, bring them home.
I'm not really a pacifist,
Bring them home, bring them home.

If an army invaded this land of mine,
Bring them home, bring them home.
You'd find me out on the firing line,
Bring them home, bring them home.

Even if they brought their planes to bomb,
Bring them home, bring them home.
Even if they brought helicopters and napalm,
Bring them home, bring them home.

Show those generals their fallacy:
Bring them home, bring them home.
They don't have the right weaponry,
Bring them home, bring them home.

For defense you need common sense,
Bring them home, bring them home.
They don't have the right armaments,
Bring them home, bring them home.

The world needs teachers, books and schools,
Bring them home, bring them home.
And learning a few universal rules,
Bring them home, bring them home.

So if you love your Uncle Same,
Bring them home, bring them home.
Support our boys in Iraq and Afganistan,
Bring them home, bring them home.

[autorank]

55. k*r Time to say good night Gracie

Bill Richardson did a nice OpEd for the Washington Post during the campaign where he worked out an
estimate based on actual data. He said he could do it in six months. Depends on where we're
the troops are going.

[SalviaBlue]

56. k & r

[Orsino]

57. Who will be the last to die for our mistake?

And how long after will we finally admit to the mistake?

[efhmc]

58. No one else , please.

[billh58]

65. An innocent

Iraqi will more than likely be the last to die, and don't hold your breath while waiting for an admission of guilt.

[angee_is_mad]

61. kick

and recommend.

[ClayZ]

66. Da sooner da better!

K and R

[cliffordu]

67. Yeah but he PROMISED !!!!!! This is NOT ENOUGH~!!!!!

Or some fucking thing.

I wish I was as pure of spirit and motive to complain about this, but coming from where I do, I see this as an excellent sign.

[LooseWilly]

69. A wonderful ending to a stupid war... all on GWB's timeline.

Good job Bush... and cheers to Obama for going ahead and using Bush's timeline... wouldn't want to take a chance on upsetting the right by speeding the timeline up by a month or 6....

[SergeStorms]

74. It's about time.........

it only took what..........6 plus years to train the Iraqis to take care of themselves? :eyes:

And I have little faith that this troop withdrawal will last. We'll be sending them right back there as soon as things deteriorate to the point where U.S. corporate interests are threatened. Count on it. This is a shallow "victory", at best.

[PVnRT]

75. Wait, I thought the M$M was full of bullshit and lies

At least, apparently they are whenever they print something unfavorable.