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For as long as I've lived, I've never been able to call myself "conservative."

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msallied Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 11:48 PM
Original message
For as long as I've lived, I've never been able to call myself "conservative."
Edited on Fri Oct-23-09 12:13 AM by msallied
Throughout my childhood and up through my early teens, before I knew anything about politics or what a Democrat or a Republican was, there was a certain mindset I always railed against. The racists. The dogmatic religious types. The authoritative hard asses. The mean rich people. The ones who polluted the environment. The greedy ones or ones who were really just hateful for no other reason than they could be. I was about fourteen or fifteen before I learned that most of the people like this happened to be Republicans.

But even before that, the word "conservative" always frightened and alienated me. I didn't have to be told what it meant on an idealistic standpoint to know that it was a word that fit me about as poorly as Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman suit would have fit me at 9 months pregnant (or even right now if we're being honest...lol). I couldn't articulate it. I've gone through most of my 20s with that feeling of knowing why but never being able to quite put my finger on what it was that made me squirm in the face of people who call themselves "conservative."

Then I figured out what it was. Conservatism is really nothing more than a way of trying to put an attractive veneer or noble rationalization on one's deep-seated resentment or often downright hatred for fellow human beings. They are like fake, empty plastic people who put on clothes and makeup and who learn how to mimic human emotion in order to appear human, but whose empty, vacuous, conscience-free minds suck all of the warmth and good will out of the room. They're like evil replicants. There is no compassion there. There is no humanity. If there is some great cosmic receptacle where people with defective hearts and souls go, it has the word "Conservative" stamped on the front of it in big red letters. There are good people in this world who attribute this label to themselves. I know many. But I think many of them do it out of ignorance or because it's what their parents taught them. But if they looked deep within themselves, they would probably see that the label doesn't really fit them.

This wasn't something that was taught to me. My parents were never terribly political people growing up, and there was never any real dogma floating around my house. But this instinct has been with me for nearly 30 years, and that tells me more than anything that I think on some base level, we're born into these mindsets and they are either re-shaped or reinforced depending on how we are raised. It just finally feels good to be able to express WHY I have always felt that way.
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RepublicanElephant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. conservatives are definitely insane in the membrane:
A fascinating new study from the British weekly scientific magazine, New Scientist brings up the question on its front cover, "Two Tribes: Are Your Genes Liberal or Conservative?" It delves into the serious scientific research on the formation of political opinions. My attention was immediately focused on several conclusions which I had been noticing since my student days when I was president of the freshman class at college and of the school's Young Democrats:

"...a rather unflattering view of conservatives emerges from the studies. They are portrayed as dogmatic, routine-loving individuals, while liberals come across as free-spirited and open-minded folk."

The story suggests that it's probably pointless to try to change most people's minds about politics.

The Liberal Mind vs the Conservative Mind -- Genetic?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howie-klein/the-liberal-mind-vs-the-c_b_85898.html
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msallied Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Fascinating stuff. I have bookmarked it. Thank you!
:hi:
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. Interesting
Edited on Fri Oct-23-09 01:38 AM by Juche
I have taken the factor 5 personality test several times and always score around the 99th percentile on openness.

You do have to wonder what role epigenetics plays though. Genes themselves are not destiny. Many things like nutrition and environment regulate how your genes are expressed.

Most conservatives I've met weren't very impressive. However my older brother is a conservative and I can have intelligent conversations with him. There are informed, intelligent conservatives who can have a discussion and back up their opinions with facts and experience. Sadly though they are rare. The dogmatic dittoheads, global warming deniers and Palin lovers are the majority from what I've seen.
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. Rec'd....n/t
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
4. I'm substantively conservative.
I conserve unused food and clothing, time, and friendships.
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msallied Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. :) I think that's really the only place the word should definitely apply.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
6. What a thoughtful and intelligent post....
I agree. I think you are born this way, and how you're raised affects you profoundly.

Thank you!

K&R

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msallied Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Thank you!
I had a bit of an epiphany about it tonight and figured I'd share it here since I think most of us probably can relate to that feeling of being instinctively "this way" and being unable to articulate say exactly why other than it just feels right. :)
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. +1
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
7. conservatives want to preserve the status quo, or go backward.
Progressives want to--well, progress. We usually do, eventually. If the conservatives hold us back for a time, we leap ahead and catch up the minute we are free. That's just the way it works.

I think conservatives are the way they are because in one way or another they are filled with FEAR. Fear of change, fear of the Other, fear of death, fear of failure, fear of being afraid. You name it, they don't want it unless it takes them back to some good old days that never existed.
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msallied Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I agree. I have always felt that fear
and greed (which is in its own way a form of fear...fear that you're going to lose your money or your status, so you instead horde everything around you) guide the mindset of conservatives probably more than anything else. And I have truly come to feel that this is an innate thing.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. love that kitty pic by the way!
He looks like a prince. :)
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msallied Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Thank you! I love my big ol' Pixie-Bob! :)
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
10. I can remember being about 10 or 11 and asking my dad "What's a conservative?"
And he said "Someone who is against progress and change," and I remember wondering to myself what kind of moron would be against progress and change. Now I know!
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SPedigrees Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Your dad is a wise man, and well spoken. nt
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PretzelWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 01:44 AM
Response to Original message
14. good to see you again, msallied. been awhile
you've probably posted a lot...but I haven't chatted with you in some time. You're still in Seattle or Washington somewhere, right?

Portland, Oregon here....cheers.
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msallied Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. I've been here and there. :)
Lurking more than posting. But it's good to chat w/ ya! :) Still in Olympia and "loving" the return of our typical fall weather. lol
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 03:23 AM
Response to Original message
15. Different brain set-up?
Are we engaging in a political contest with people whose brains don't work like ours? Failing to understand one way or another will put us in a strategically weak situation.

IMO empathy is one of a number of human personality traits which can be placed on continua. Bell curves are probably oversimplifications, but might serve as a starting point for discussion, with "neurotypical" being at the middle of the curve. Note however that people a couple of standard deviations in either direction can be perfectly functional socially. I'd also like to avoid any nature/nurture controversies--the empirical observations are the same either way, and where people fall on the continua certainly owes as much to life experience as to inborn traits. Let's consider three distributions of traits--cheerfulness/depression, social intelligence, and empathy.

Cheerfulness/depression continuum

Grey pit dwellers-->wet blankets/sourballs-->neurotypical wearers of slightly rose-tinted glasses-->terminally perky

A few years back, one of my coworkers had an article hung in his cubicle describing the job performance of cheerful people versus sourballs, which concluded that the sourballs had more realistic perceptions of complex problems and were more likely to come up with deeper, more thorough and more creative analyses of problems. The terminally perky were far more superficial. Depressed people, when evaluating their own job performances, tended to agree with others' evaluations of them--they did not underrate themselves; their performance self-evaluations were simply accurate. More optimistic people had higher opinions of themselves than their coworkers did.

It's well known that optimism and cheerfulness enhance the immune system and lead to better recovery from a whole spectrum of diseases, so individuals will be selected for that trait. The human norm is probably therefore having a somewhat rosy tint to perceptions of reality. However, it may well be that the tribe needs at least a few people to perceive more accurately what is really going on, and to more creatively deal with new situations, so there would be group selection for this. The price paid is that a few on the far end of the spectrum will periodically get trapped in the grey pit, the dark night of the soul. (To the extent that genetics is involved, it probably works like the distribution of sickle cell hemoglobin genes in malaria-prone regions. The price for having half the population malaria-resistant is having 25% of the population with sickle cell anemia.)

Social intelligence continuum

Expert dolphin-like divers in the social swim-->neurotypicals-->nerds/geeks-->Asperger's syndrome-->high-functioning autistics--> completely dysfunctional head-banging autistics

Human social connectedness depends on the ability of most people to read social signals. However, it is also clearly beneficial to human society to have some of its members partly stripped of that ability so that they can perceive reality logically without dealing with misleading conceptions deriving from pure social utility. That's where we get scientists and engineers from. (Charismatic politicians are at the other end of the spectrum.) The price we pay is that a few people will be doomed to spending their lives banging their heads on hard surfaces.

(Note: I'm not discounting possible environmental causes of autism here, just suggesting that if there are environmental causes, we are possibly looking at an overlay of environment-related cases sitting on top of a full spectrum of personality types within a normal range. Similarly, type I and type II diabetes are very different conditions despite the fact that they have problems with blood sugar control in common.)

I think that the male/female differences in continuum location comes about because it can be absolutely lethal for women to be unable to read social signals emanating from those who have been known to kill or maim them for such misreadings. Whether by biology or sex-role socialization or both, it is generally the case that girl geeks are usually somewhat less geeky than boy geeks--this enables them to mediate between boy geeks and society at large, even though they are generally unable to keep up with the junior high female "in" crowd.

Empathy continuum

Sociopaths-->near sociopaths-->soldiers/emergency workers-->the neurotypically empathic-->altruists-->hearts tending to bleed uncontrollably all over almost everything

Empathy is the human norm--we really do feel other peoples' pain. It creates social bonds because acting to relieve others' pain relieves our own psychological distress. However, it is also necessary to be able to suppress empathy for self-defense and for dealing with emergencies. Your chances of survival are greatly enhanced if your emergency room team does not feel your pain, but instead treats you like a malfunctioning meat machine until your vital signs are stabilized. If we need to suppress empathy occasionally to survive, it immediately follows that a few people will inevitably turn out to be entirely too good at it--hence sociopathology. To sociopaths, others are never anything but objects to be used for their own benefit. On the other end of the spectrum are people almost incapacitated for self defense because of their intense empathy--that's where religious traditions like Jainism come from.

Looking at phenomena like the high suicide rate among police officers and the incidence of PSTD in people exposed to battle conditions, we seem (thankfully) to not have enough people trending toward sociopathology to completely fill our needs for protection/emergency response career positions. PSTD exists because the majority of our cops and soldiers are neurotypically empathic.

So, what does all this have to do with conservatives?

Of the three continua I have described, I think that they are different from us on the empathy continuum. I'd label them as near-sociopathic, not Ted Bundy-style complete sociopaths, but having the same relationship to Ted Bundy as people with Asperger's syndrome have to head-banging autistics. The parts of their brains that process the information "How would I like it if someone did that to me?" function either poorly or only intermittently. And it's a common enough condition that I sure wish there was a common readily recognizable term analogous to Asperger's syndrome that we could use to describe them.

It explains at least a few things, like for instance how rule-bound and authoritarian they are. This indicates deviation from neurotypical empathic ability. Consider how Asperger's syndrome people deal with their inability to read social cues--they compensate by using rulebooks that they generate based on careful observation of neurotypical behavior. (#47. When a neurotypical says "How are you?" this is not actually a request for detailed information.)

Theologians, confronting the observation that people who did not share their particular religious beliefs nonetheless mostly behaved perfectly reasonably toward each other, came up with the concept of natural law. That is, inborn empathy is the foundation of human ethics and the source of the Golden Rule proverbs found in every known human culture. Lao Tzu famously observed "When virtue is lost, benevolence appears, when benevolence is lost right conduct appears, when right conduct is lost, expedience appears." In other words, discard natural human empathy and immediately you need a lot rules and regulations to make people behave ethically.

So, perhaps the conservative insistence on punitive law enforcement, unthinking obedience to authority and displaying the Ten Commandments everywhere reflects real awareness of themselves as deficient people who can't function socially without a detailed rule book. Lots of sociopaths and near-sociopaths, after all, can pass for normal in society if they decide that following the rules is more convenient and pleasant for them than not following the rules. Naturally a near-sociopath will perceive neurotypically empathic types as "bleeding hearts," because that's how someone in the middle of the continuum looks to them from their position at the other end of it.

Situational sociopathology

Consider the well-known experiments of Stanley Milgram, which demonstrate clearly that just about anybody is capable of sociopathic behavior under the right conditions. This is analogous to situational depression, which results not from a genetic tendency to be in that place on the continuum or chemical imbalances in the brain, but from specific lousy things that happen to people.

Similarly, widespread situational sociopathology can result from truly threatening events, like the 9-11 attacks. The urge to strike back indiscriminately will eventually fade as we get back to normal, just as we eventually recover from the death of someone close, divorce, job loss and the like.

So, we have a core group of near-sociopaths that aren't going to change, and the rest of us who are capable of temporarily acting like them. If that first group isn't too large, we're in luck. All it takes to devalue the conservative memes is for more of us to be like the actors in Milgram's second set of experiments. A single voice saying "No, don't apply more intense shocks" snapped the rest of his experimental subjects out of their befuddled-by-authority stupor.

Any suggestions on realistically dealing with the minority of incurable non-empaths? Just let them have their Ten Commandment monuments? (It's certainly no favor to someone with Asperger's syndrome to advise them to just get along without their collections of rote recipes for social interaction and go by instinct and direct perception like other people do. That makes about as much sense as hollering "Make more insulin, dammit!" at diabetics.) Go along with a really punitive legal system to some extent? What?

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msallied Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. As a former psych major, I love this post.
And your mentioning of Stanley Milgram. :) That study (along with the Philip Zimbardo prison experiment in how it demonstrated how willing people were to assuming specific roles, even if it went against their "core" personalities) was both disturbing and fascinating.

If this is part of the human condition for some, how could it possibly be changed? If anything, it shows that we will be engaged in these ideological fights for as long as we humans are around. It's a slightly depressing thought, really.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. I think we can get by with just shifting the cultural norm to expectation of empathy
Then the borderline sociopaths will be more inclined to conform.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 05:29 AM
Response to Original message
16. Has several, even duplicitous meanings. (Fiscal conservative?)
I like the idea of a fiscal conservative. It's nice when government does not spend too much. But, it is more costly to my life, sometimes, when we do not spend that extra money. So, if I want to spend more money in order to save more money, is this conservative?

(Perhaps unnecessary examples:
1. We pay $200/year for internet access. If government were to supply it, the cost would be about one tenth that amount from each of us. But, that would require government spending the money.
2. We average $8000/year for insured health care that does not cover everything nor everybody. Single-payer should cost about $3000/year and that covers everyone for everything.)

Pay less, get more. Is that conservative?

ASIDE: Conserving ones racial superiority is repugnant even for many large-C Conservatives.

To me, Conservative has become just another overused and definitely misused word. And, call it the conspiracy theorist in me, I think some of the meanings deign to create a word that means somethings to some, and other things to others, all in the pursuit of more money and power.
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
17. And I would condemn anyone who dared to call you one!
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-23-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
21. I don't think modern American politics features a convenient dichotomy between "Good" and "Evil"
Plain experience tells us otherwise.
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Politics_Guy25 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
23. OMG-beautiful and well written post
This deserves 1000 recs. Thoughtful, emotional, and so true. Thanks for this post!
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msallied Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Thank you for reading and liking it. :)
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
25. I'm A Conservative...
It's how you use the word. For example, I am a fiscal conservative...I don't believe in spending money you don't have or haven't earned and not to spend the money you have foolishly...to conserve for when it may be needed for important things for my family or to donate to others. I'm also a Conservative Jew...as are all members of my family...which would be considered "moderate"...btween reform (liberal) and orthodox (fundie). I also am a natural conservative...I believe in preserving as much of earth and its natural beauty and resources from commercial exploitation.

Now I could never call myself a rushpublican and it's now based on a lifetime of having to co-exist with them.
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