Why does Clark CONTINUE to defend the murderous School of the Americas ?

[Hoppin_Mad]

Why does Clark CONTINUE to defend the murderous School of the Americas - responsible for training numerous despicable killers and torturers in some of history's most notorious right wing paramilitary death squads ? ( El Salvador, Guatemala, Chile, etc )

When will he denounce this vile institution, which at one time was under his command - that taught torture, murder and mayhem and is responsible by proxy for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians ?


"Renamed the "Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation" (WHISC), the school trains hundreds of soldiers each year–supported by millions of US tax payer dollars. Many of these soldiers have been responsible for some of the worst human rights violations and the most brutal terrorist attacks on civilian communities in our hemisphere, including: the massacre of more than 900 people at El Mozote; the Trujillo" chainsaw massacre of over 100 civilians; the execution of six Jesuit priests; the assassination of Archbishop Romero and Bishop Juan Germidi"

-------

Keith Dodge of Plymouth, NH writes: --

General Clark was at Plymouth State University yesterday, 11/18/2003 and was giving a speech to our community in Heritage Commons. I didn't get called on during the Q&A, though I did get his attention afterward when he was shaking hands. I asked him what the thought about the upcoming protests at the SOA and where he stood on the school's operation.

He said that he had once taught there and that he supported the school. When I aksed about the many documented Human Rights abuses commited by SOA graduates, his reply was, " Imagine the things that would have happened if these soldiers hadn't been taught our principles of Democracy."I then asked him if he would support the schools closing and he said "I think the school's a good thing, and no I wouldn't kill it."

This is less than TWO months ago, people !

----------


WASHINGTON - In a position that's likely to alienate some Democratic primary voters, retired Gen. Wesley Clark is a big booster of the controversial "School of the Americas" - which critics charge has history of graduating Latin American soldiers accused of rape, murder and torture.

Clark fought for years to keep the school at Fort Benning, Ga., open, even testifying on its behalf in Congress, despite graduates like imprisoned Panamanian ex-strongman Manuel Noriega.

Clark's backing of the school - whose curriculum once included teaching torture, execution, kidnapping and blackmail - puts him at odds with many Democratic officials and groups like Amnesty International, who want the school closed.

Rep. Jim McGovern (D-Mass.) calls the school a "stain on our reputation" and leads the effort to close it. "With all due respect to the general, the school is an insult to our troops," he said. Nearly all Democrats in New York's congressional delegation oppose the school and Reps. Dick Gephardt (D-Mo.) and Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) voted to shut it.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Could you please supply the links?

This does concern me knowing SOA's history

[Hoppin_Mad]

5. Here's the main link exposing this "School of Assassination and Torture"

http://www.soaw-ne.org/

Here's the link of the personal account where, less than 2 months ago, Clark defended the SOA. This originally appeared on a CLARK blog !


http://www.birddogger.org/news.php?id=117

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

74. Yes Manuel Noriega did so well

Again the school's record speaks for itself so much so that even mainstream news organizations such as 60 Minutes highlighted the abuses of its graduates.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoppin_Mad]

78. Here's the proof you request in writing - There's no denying it

http://mediafilter.org/guest/Pages/September.21.1996.23.26.32


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Manuals used by the U.S. Army's School of the Americas between 1982 and 1991 appeared to condone executions, beatings and other human rights abuses, the Pentagon said in a disclosure that prompted renewed calls for the school's closure.

The Pentagon on Friday disclosed English translations of portions of seven training manuals it said were pulled from use in 1991 by then-Defense Secretary Dick Cheney. He determined that the language violated U.S. policy. At the time, the Pentagon conducted a review of the training materials and reported the findings to Congress in closed briefings.

"The review found that about two dozen isolated phrases, sentences or short passages, out of 1,100 pages in six of the manuals, were objectionable or dubious," a Pentagon statement said, "(and) appeared to condone practices violating U.S. policy."

The phrases, including references to "eliminating potential rivals" to "obtaining information involuntarily" to the "neutralization" of people, were taken out of context, the statement said.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tinanator]

96. not nearly so much as your reply

Im not sure who should be held responsible for your unfamiliarity with the SOA programs and perhaps reality itself. Would you settle for some copies of the comic books they printed up to show terror techniques for Contra "freedom fighters"? You want to pick an argument on the web, dont be asking for hard copies of what is likely classified documents. I never cared much for the term "straw man", but what else describes your approach?

[xultar]

147. They never would have learned to kill without SOA right? n/t

[xultar]

146. What about RWANDA and HAITI? n/t

[xultar]

145. Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, and prior Dem Presidents all Supported SOA

[burrowowl]

2. Damn good question eom

[Printer70]

3. Shhh...we're not supposed to point out the similarities

...between Clark's views and the Right. He's a "real Democrat" because he said so and if you disagree, go to the back of the bus!

[maxr4clark]

4. Koolaid, anyone?

[moz4prez]

6. answers, anyone?

[floridaguy]

7. As a Clark supporter, I cherish the chance to defend his views . . .

Of course, if you start with the premise that individuals that graduate from a certain institution and do bad things mean the institution is bad, we probably should start checking the schools where Hinckley,Dalmer, and any other sociopath or killer attended school.

Wes Clark has spent his life protecting your freedom. If the SOA is really what you say it is, he will do what is necessary to change things. It's that simple. Perhaps, you were hoping he'd say one thing and change his mind tomorrow.

Sorry. You'll find that he will stand by his opinions and comments, but he will always be ready to assess the facts.

So I guess this is what it's going to be like being the front-runner from now on. Unlike supporters of other candidates, Clark supporters will not whine when you question him. We will defend him though, because he's the best chance we got to beat Bush, and you know it.

[Hoppin_Mad]

9. Er, did those schools TEACH COURSES in torture, murder and repression ?

[quaker bill]

52. Well.....Yes they did.

CIA produced the manuals on the most efficient techniques. Some turned up during that little Iran-Contra thing in the 1980's.

They trained Iran's secret police in these techniques well enough to bring about an Islamic revolution.

(no they didn't, it couldn't be true, Clark wouldn't support this)

Yes they did, my daddy was a civil servant working for DOD, who let the contracts to buy military equipment in the US for the Shah, and other now infamous characters in Central America and supervised delivery of the purchased goods.

He had meetings with commanders at SOA to assess their needs. He believed that he was helping in the effort to protect democracy. Then he went to Iran about 2 weeks before the revolution. He came back very scared. This reaction, from a man that was a foot soldier in the campaign to retake Italy in WWII, was a bit surprising to me. But then 2 weeks later...

SOA was everything people on the left believed it to be and perhaps more.

The only problem I have with closing this facility is that this alone will not be enough if the program just continues at other locations. A true change away from the diplomacy of coercion is needed. Coercive diplomacy is a cause of war and terrorism, not the solution.

Clark's support of this program indicates that he is not the candidate who would achieve this.

[Hoppin_Mad]

81. My post was rhetorical - answering the ridiculous assertion

That the colleges were murderers like Dahmer attended were equally responsible for turning out killers.

ABSURD !

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. Look I don't dislike Clark but the record on SOA speaks for itself

Several years ago 60 Minutes did a piece on this school and almost ALL of what is bad about our policy in Latin America can be traced to this school ( the rest ot the World Bank and IMF)...all those dirty wars we hear about in all those countries can be DIRECTLY traced to the training that took place from this institution.

I LIKE Clark but this is a HUGE issue for me and simply dismissing it won't do.

[diamondsoul]

56. As much as I have strong

admiration for General Clark, this stance really disturbs me. The things that have been taught at the SOA are well-known to those who have done the research on it, instruction books have been made public and the texts are alarming to put it mildly.

There are three things in General Clarks record thus far that I find reason enough to support another candidate, and all of them are a direct result of his military career and training. The SOA defense is one, his comments in an article I read here recently about depleted uranium are the second, and his insistance that we can somehow "win" an unjust invasion is the third.

I don't begrudge him his view, I just can't bring myself to support it, if that makes sense?

[Kolesar]

58. "Wes Clark has spent his life protecting your freedom", Not!

Make that "spent his life protecting America's interests". There is a difference between the two.
I would credit the ACLU with protecting my freedoms. :)

[Cheswick2.0]

61. If you cherish the fact to defend him, when are you going to do it

all you have done so far is tell us you don't question his authority or judgment. Why am I not surprised?

[Mairead]

62. C'mon...Clark knows damned well what SotA does.

The idea that he's deluded about it is simply not credible at all.

[JNelson6563]

65. Then plese do

As a Clark supporter, I cherish the chance to defend his views . .

By all means, please defend supporting this school of terror.

Of course, if you start with the premise that individuals that graduate from a certain institution and do bad things mean the institution is bad, we probably should start checking the schools where Hinckley,Dalmer, and any other sociopath or killer attended school.

Ah but the difference you fail note is that these disturbed individuals did not attend schools that offered courses in torture and other horrors. They were just home-grown American sickos. I would surmise they were likely neglected in child-hood, possibly abused too. That coming from first hand knowledge of how these environments affect individuals.

Wes Clark has spent his life protecting your freedom. If the SOA is really what you say it is, he will do what is necessary to change things. It's that simple. Perhaps, you were hoping he'd say one thing and change his mind tomorrow.

Oh very nice. "....protecting your freedom." Trying to personalize? Would that be to shame folks into thinking they are ingrates for questioning a man who spent his life protecting their personal freedom? haha As to Clark changing his view of this school, yes, I'd hope he'd have defended it due to lack of knowledge adn would change his assessment of it upon learning the full truth. As it turns out that wasn't the case and he made the defense with full knowledge of what it's all about.

Sorry. You'll find that he will stand by his opinions and comments, but he will always be ready to assess the facts.

Seems he's alredy done this and arrived at his erroneous conclusions anyway. Interesting.

(Here's my favorite part ;-) ):

So I guess this is what it's going to be like being the front-runner from now on. Unlike supporters of other candidates, Clark supporters will not whine when you question him. We will defend him though, because he's the best chance we got to beat Bush, and you know it.

I didn't know Clark was the front-runner! Clark supporters will not whine when he is questioned??? haha That's pretty rich. I see Clark quotes posted, accompanied by no commentary and Clark supporters decry the horrible "attacks". haha It si very amusing.

As to us KNOWING Clark is the best chance to beat Bush, how dare you presume to know what anybody else knows. Just because you think you know something doesn't mean everyone feels the same.

So was this an attempt "to defend his views"? If so I hope you can do better than that!

Julie

[tinanator]

69. thats amazing

no sophistry, no rebuttal, just a blind faith in black as white. up as down. None are so blind I guess?

[jadesfire]

70. Normally I would agree..

with the tone of your post but the School of America's (or whatever they want to call it now...)is an incredibly volitile and important question. Dismissing the concern people have about this question does not help you build support for your candidate.

the soa has trained (and still has pictures of these men in their "hall of fame") Noriega, Pinochet, and countless others who took their traning and turned it on the people of their countries. it is a tool that is used to repress democracy.

this is a legitimate question that deserves to be answered, i would like to know...

[bitchkitty]

125. Disingenous -

We're not talking about business school here. We're talking about the SOA. They're not learning marketing techniques.

[oasis]

8. Somebody just apologized for calling Clark "Butcher of the Balkins".

should we have doubted their sincerity?

Edit: Balkins not Belgrade.

[Hoppin_Mad]

10. I apologized for using that inflammatory desciption for him

Hopefully HE will aplogize for, or at least explain his support for the SOA.

[revcarol]

11. How dare you not want a candidate that can out-Bush Bush?

You long-haired, sleazy, librul, VW driving, flag-burnning commie, you!!

All hail our glorious leader who will defend us by making sure Latin America never comes into its rightful place. Spoken as one whose relatives suffered under torturer Pinochet, whose many henchmen were proud graduates of the School of the Americas.

[oasis]

13. kick

[Tweed]

12. Continue to read the web site

As a Clark supporter, this does bother me and I would like to hear him answer a simliar question on the topic ASAP. However, if you continue to read the website and scroll down, you will see that even the person who wrote that is saying that we should hear more from Clark on the topic and ask him further questions about this. My biggest question would be why none of the the other Democratic candidates have brought this up. That web site may not be the most credible source. After all, it is just some guy. I would like to hear Clark talk about the topic more before I made a final desicion.

[oasis]

14. Kick so the original poster can take note.

[Hoppin_Mad]

17. I read that - It was from a CLARK Blog

And in essence the posters were HOPING that Clark would change his stance on a position that left even the Clark supporters shocked and dissapointed !

[revcarol]

15. I saw him talk about it at the time he was overseeing it.

He said, oh goody, that it was all changed, and that, oh goody, the people were learning real democracy, oh, goody, we would see real democratic leaders come out of the school...Events have proven him wrong.

That he can STILL defend it, after he knows about these more recent disasters(he's too smart NOT to know,)is a disgrace.And we have seen some of the graduates try to overthrow/undermine liberal leaders that the Bushies want out.

Someone above said that none of the candidates were talking about it. DK is. He wants it shut down pronto!! Surprised?

[slinkerwink]

16. kick for a valid question.

[BootinUp]

18. The question that is going on three threads now

Here is my take:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=87625#87660

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. Changes to SOA were cosmetic in 00

They are still a training camp for thugs and are a conduit for the transfer of wealth from the American public to Dyncorp and Raytheon.

[BootinUp]

23. Annual reviews by outside organizations is cosmetic?

[Cheswick2.0]

63. a good question would be

was Clark teaching there even before those cosmetic changes took place?

[Printer70]

21. Impart better American ideals??

"better American ideals to the students as part of the program. If the school didn't exist, what would the effect be?"

Are you serious?

[BootinUp]

22. Yes please give me your best shot. Or you don't have one?

[Printer70]

24. SOA- and its ideals

"Human rights groups were quick to accuse the US of aiding and abetting El Salvador's military regime. This was not an idle allegation. Nineteen of the 27 Salvadoran officers who took part in the massacre by a UN Truth Commission report were graduates of the SOA. In fact, almost three-quarters of the Salvadoran officers implicated in seven other bloodbaths during El Salvador's civil war (including the assassination of Archbishop Oscar Romero 15 years ago this month) were trained by the SOA. The elite institution has left its mark everywhere in Latin America: Of the 246 officers cited for various crimes in Colombia by a 1992 international human rights tribunal, 105 are SOA graduates. "

Now, where'd they learn to do all that! Hmmm...

[BootinUp]

26. So you are going to attempt to prove

The SOA is bad simply because some people that graduated from it committed war crimes? That is not proof of a problem at a school.

First, you did not address the reforms that have been made.

Second, you did not say why you think these murdering soldiers would not have existed were it not for the SOA. I have read some of these things before, the evidence for making your accusations is quite flimsly.

I believe our soldiers are some of the best in the world. I believe that when they are ordered into action, they are as ready as possible for the horrors they will witness, and trained to take appropriate action but to respect innocent life and protect non-combatants. I believe that we know how to do this training, so that soldiers will be prepared to act correctly when faced with these situations. I also believe that we should never use military action unless it is a last resort.

[Printer70]

27. LOL

Yeah, it's just coincidence. How many of those apprehended in Latin American nations for committing human rights crimes were educated by Princeton? How many Cornell graduates were involved in coup attempts in Latin America? Either you are naive or you are spinning like a top.

[BootinUp]

29. Since that was your best shot I'll leave it at that. n/t

[Printer70]

32. Thanks for playing

...and making me feel smart, relatively-speaking.

[Hoppin_Mad]

28. Here are excerpts from their training manual

HOW can you be defending the SOA ? !

http://www.soawne.org/SOAManuals.html

Manual Excerpts Deemed "Completely Consistent with U.S. Law and Human Rights Policy":

I. The following excerpts, typical of the manuals as a whole, recommend that Latin American militaries preemptively infiltrate opposition political parties, youth groups, unions, civil society organizations; use children, doctors and clergy as sources; take advantage of humanitarian aid programs; and view legal political campaigning as potentially subversive.

"We have already seen how a relatively small number of individuals can come to control an organization by infiltration and fixed elections. The government can inform itself in a timely way about insurgents' activity in these organizations, by placing its agents in all organizations that it suspects could interest the insurgent group. Among the main organizations of this type can be mentioned political parties, unions and youth and student groups." ("Handling of Sources," p. 7)

"AGE: The employees worthy of greatest confidence are mature, objective and emotionally stable individuals.... Children are, at least, very observant and can provide precise information about things they have seen and heard, if they are interrogated in the appropriate manner." ("Handling of Sources," p. 26)

"The insurgents try to influence the direction, control and authority that is exercised over the nation in general and in the administration of the political system. The insurgents are active in the areas of political nominations, political organizations, political education, and judicial laws. They can resort to subverting the government by means of elections in which the insurgents cause the replacement of an unfriendly government official to one favorable to their cause. The insurgent activity can include disbursing campaign funds to gain members and organizing political meetings for their candidates.... Also, insurgent leaders can participate in political races as candidates for government posts." ("Revolutionary War, Guerillas and Communist Ideology," 1989, p. 51)

"The CI agent should take advantage of the aid programs through which the government provides food, clothing, health care and housing for the population. As these are programs with which the government is identified, it is possible to persuade the individuals who have benefitted from them to collaborate in the search for people ready to work with the government." ("Handling of Sources," p. 34)

"Teachers, doctors, social workers and clergy in a local area also can provide a lot of information to the CI agent. These individuals usually have a close relationship with the population and enjoy their respect. They usually maintain a variety of files that can be a useful source of information." ("Handling of Sources," p. 35)

"Before the guerillas take control: The CI agent should consider all organizations as possible guerilla sympathizers. He ought to train and locate informants inside these organizations to inform him about activities and discover any indication of a latent insurrection. We are especially interested in identifying the members of the guerillas commando structure, its political structure and base of support. By infiltrating informants in the diverse youth, workers, political, business, social and charitable organizations, we can identify the organizations that include guerillas among their members. The agent can also identify the relatives of these guerillas, their supporters and sympathizers of the insurrectionary movement.... The CI agent also should investigate other organizations that are not yet under the guerillas' control, since doubtless these will include members who sympathize with the insurrectionary movement; for that reason, it is essential to identify those persons." ("Handling of Sources," p. 75)

"Organizations or groups that are able to be a potential threat to the government also must be identified as targets. Even though the threat may not be apparent, insurgents frequently hide subversive activity behind front organizations. Examples of hostile organizations or groups are paramilitary groups, labor unions, and dissident groups." ("Terrorism and the Urban Guerilla," p. 112)

II. The following excerpts recommend that Latin American militaries institute repressive, controlling measures over the local population, making black lists of suspected civilians, instituting checkpoints, ID cards, curfews and rationing systems, and enforcing measures through arrests and exile. There is no discussion in any of the manuals about a state of siege or other legal measures that would provide a legal basis for such suspension of civil liberties and democratic guarantees. "CIVILIAN SECURITY: In all cases the mission of the military forces has priority over the well-being of the civilians in the area.

Examples of the civilian security measures are: Systematic registering of the civilian personnel, including the neutral foreigners and enemies: This is done by the civilian affairs agency and includes the distribution of rationing cards, work permits, travel permits and permits for crossing borders.... Surveillance of suspect political groups: one should find out whether other groups are sympathetic to enemy cause. Such groups must always be considered potential agents." ("Counterintelligence," pp. 10-11)

[BootinUp]

66. Is all of this official material?

I am sure I read online somewhere that much of the objectionable material was brought in by students and was not official material. I don't have those links so I'll have to look for them again.

To me the important thing is the process for insuring the school is run to highest standards. And not that somebody can find some objectionable material, but was is done about when it is found, and what are they doing to improve the school.

The question is, does anyone here objecting to the SOA, even acknowledge the school has some worth? Or is this just another target for pacifists?

[bitchkitty]

129. Weak, lame, pathetic.

You're defending the SOA.

[Hoppin_Mad]

25. Here's something written AFTER the "changes" (basically a change of name)

Published on Tuesday, October 30, 2001 in the Guardian of London

Backyard Terrorism

The US Has Been Training Terrorists At a Camp in Georgia for Years - And It's Still At It

"If any government sponsors the outlaws and killers of innocents," George Bush announced on the day he began bombing Afghanistan, "they have become outlaws and murderers themselves. And they will take that lonely path at their own peril." I'm glad he said "any government", as there's one which, though it has yet to be identified as a sponsor of terrorism, requires his urgent attention.

AFor the past 55 years it has been running a terrorist training camp, whose victims massively outnumber the people killed by the attack on New York, the embassy bombings and the other atrocities laid, rightly or wrongly, at al-Qaida's door. The camp is called the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, or Whisc. It is based in Fort Benning, Georgia, and it is funded by Mr Bush's government.

Until January this year, Whisc was called the "School of the Americas", or SOA. Since 1946, SOA has trained more than 60,000 Latin American soldiers and policemen. Among its graduates are many of the continent's most notorious torturers, mass murderers, dictators and state terrorists. As hundreds of pages of documentation compiled by the pressure group SOA Watch show, Latin America has been ripped apart by its alumni.

In June this year, Colonel Byron Lima Estrada, once a student at the school, was convicted in Guatemala City of murdering Bishop Juan Gerardi in 1998. Gerardi was killed because he had helped to write a report on the atrocities committed by Guatemala's D-2, the military intelligence agency run by Lima Estrada with the help of two other SOA graduates. D-2 coordinated the "anti-insurgency" campaign which obliterated 448 Mayan Indian villages, and murdered tens of thousands of their people. Forty per cent of the cabinet ministers who served the genocidal regimes of Lucas Garcia, Rios Montt and Mejia Victores studied at the School of the Americas.

-snip-


http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1030-02.htm

[Tinoire]

92. Clark is peddling: "The School of the Americas teaches human rights"

However, he was questioned by someone with more pacifist nature when they questioned Clark about his support of the School of the Americas in Georgia. Rep. Dennis Kucinich has criticized the school which is for the purpose of training Latin Americans, of training individuals who violated human rights. Clark responded:

“The School of the Americas teaches human rights,” he said.

Later in the forum, Clark revisited the issue when another questioner indicated he was dissatisfied with the general’s earlier explanation.

The program, he said, offers the opportunity for Latin American soldiers to be exposed to the Democratic culture of the United States so that they come to respect the values they are being trained to defend.

http://www.iowapresidentialwatch.com/dailyArchive/Dec2003/12-21-03.htm

[JNelson6563]

55. I see no answer

I am involved this year in politics because I was very much against the Iraq war. Normally I don't give money or talk to people about politics, I just vote. This year is different. I have contributed to Clark because I think he is really special and has very good qualities that we need right now. I believe that Clark would be the last one to take us to war, he has seen it up close, he has had to call or write the families that lost loved ones, he was wounded himself. I tell you that it is those that do not know war that I am more afraid of. Did you read the snippet of that speech?

This post of yours doesn't even seem relevent to this thread. I don't understand why you posted this as an answer.

Julie

[BootinUp]

67. Sorry if the link didn't work, this was what I said

SOA. As I understand it there was a pretty massive reform to the system for reviewing curriculum in 2000. It is done by congress and by independent organizations annually. While you have a valid concern, consider the fact that we have an opportunity to impart our better American ideals to the students as part of the program. If the school didn't exist, what would the effect be?

[bitchkitty]

128. The effect?

"If the school didn't exist, what would the effect be?"

Let's see - you're saying that it's better we run the torture school rather than someone else?

Um, okay.

[BootinUp]

132. No dear kitty thats not the obvious answer

to the question.

The obvious answer is the atrocities would still have happened, since they are a result of strife in the Central/South American countries.

The argument that you and the others are making is analagous to getting rid of shooting ranges so the murder rate will go down.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

30. SOA is wrong

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amnesty Int’l seeks to close U.S.-funded “assassin school”
By Katie Celani
Staff Writer

Last Thursday the students of Amnesty International and Environmentalists of Columbia Organization hosted a small meeting to petition for the closing of the School of the Americas.

The School of the Americas, founded in Panama in 1946, trains 900 to 2,000 Latin American soldiers a year. In 1984, due to the Panama Canal Treaty, the school was relocated to the U.S. at Fort Bening, Georgia — the largest military base in the country. According to the U.S. government the school promotes professionalism and expands the knowledge of U.S. policies such as democracy.

However, in 1995 the Pentagon released training manuals which show evidence of training in torture, assassination and other counter-insurgency tactics. So far, over 50,000 soldiers have graduated.

The School of the Americas has been under attack by human rights activists in this country for many years. Martha Pierce, a member of the Chicago Metropolitan Sanctuary Alliance, which deals with social issues in Central America, spoke to Columbia students on Thursday about the atrocities committed by graduates of this school. In 1980, graduates of the SOA raped and murdered three Catholic nuns in El Salvador. Others were responsible for the assassination of Archbishop Oscar Romero, and some rather infamous Latin American dictators, such as Panama’s Manuel Noriega and Bolivia’s Hugo Banzer Suarez were allegedly trained at the SOA.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

http://www.ccchronicle.com/back/99may03/news3.html

[Moderator]

134. ProudToBeLiberal

Per DU copyright rules
please post only four
paragraphs from the
news source.


Thank you


DU Moderator

[ProudToBeLiberal]

31. Can't believe Clark supports SOA

Gen. Clark supports the "School of the Americas" and stated "I think the school's a good thing," even when reminded of the many graduates who went on to commit human rights atrocities (11-18- 2003).

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=103-12162003

[ProudToBeLiberal]

33. No Question that clark supports SOA

Clark stays on the warpath with talk on security

By JOHN P. CURLEY

PoliticsNH.com


One voter challenged Clark on his support of the controversial School of the Americas in Georgia. A recent newspaper story documents how Clark was a staunch supporter of SOA in congressional testimony.

While graduates of the program have committed human rights violations, they represent a “tiny minority” of the school’s students should be prosecuted for their crimes, he said, pointing out that former Panamanian dictator and SOA graduate Manuel Noriega is currently imprisoned.

“The School of the Americas teaches human rights,” he said.

http://www.politicsnh.com/archives/pindell/2003/december/12_19Clark.shtml

[NV1962]

34. Well... Here's how I see it

This is a most uncomfortable issue for me, and I wholeheartedly agree with what nothingshocksmeanymore said, especially the closing remark: I LIKE Clark but this is a HUGE issue for me and simply dismissing it won't do.

The School of the Americas (SOA) bears a very dubious legacy that isn't whitewashed by its new name, the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHISC)

The first post, by Hoppin Mad, provides a few clear pointers why the controversy surrounding the SOA won't go away. And frankly, I hope that President Clark will take decisive steps to cut away the carcinogenic elements that, I believe, still persist in the WHISC. By restructuring the organization, preferably moving it away from Ft Benning, and publicly laying down a policy framework that rules out repetition of death squad leaders and members being prepared -- on the American taxpayer's dime -- for "duty" in El Salvador, for one example. In El Salvador, at least 75,000 people were tortured, murdered or "disappeared" mostly at the hands of directly and indirectly US-backed death squads. That's "just" the case of El Salvador.

But I also believe it's just as important to acknowledge that a rotten apple doesn't negate the validity of the other apples in the basket.

I think there is a very valid reason to have a military academy, where members of "friendly" armed forces can learn about their role within and responsibility towards the democracy they serve to protect.

But as I said, I believe the past weighs too heavily on WHISC - and I don't think another name change will do good. I think it must be torn down and rebuilt, preferably elsewhere - to make clear a total breach with the policy introduced by President Kennedy into the SOA with which political indoctrination methods were taught to rig the minds of military, and ultimately their governments, not defending American values, but American interests instead.

This may sound as purely subjective (and it is, because it reflects my opinion) but I believe it also reflects Wes Clark's ideas, too.

I think a clear indicator, which also provides an answer to the question of this topic, lies in the very same quote that sparked off this topic:

• He said that he had once taught there and that he supported the school. When I aksed about the many documented Human Rights abuses commited by SOA graduates, his reply was, "Imagine the things that would have happened if these soldiers hadn't been taught our principles of Democracy." I then asked him if he would support the schools closing and he said "I think the school's a good thing, and no I wouldn't kill it."

I don't think Wes Clark denies the atrocities that were committed by graduates of the SOA. I also don't think that Wes Clark approves of the anti-democratic "methods" in which military are, or at least have been instructed.

But I do agree with Wes Clark, when he points out that teaching the principles of democracy, the American values, is a good thing that deserves preservation.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

35. Teaching american values?

What gives us the right to impose our values on other people?

[NV1962]

37. If the students come here to learn...

they ought to be taught what's right and wrong according this country, no?

[slinkerwink]

36. but the questioner brought up the atrocities committed by the soldiers

and clark didn't even answer that question.

[NV1962]

38. Unless those soldiers acted under Wes Clark's command, he needn't

That's up the White House to explain, really.

[Mairead]

64. "American values"

somehow we find it hard to sell our values,
namely that the rich should plunder the poor.
-- John Foster Dulles

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

72. Thanks for the thoughtful response but my rebuttal is as follows:

Imagine the things that would have happened if these soldiers hadn't been taught our principles of Democracy.

What things would have happened differently in Nicaragua and Guatemale had WE NOT trained murderous thugs how to control population by propaganda campaigns?

What would the economy be like in Nicaragua had we NOT trained the "Freedom fighters" how to bomb commodities such as corn and sugar?

How is teaching POPULATION control through manipulation and terror, teaching the principles of Democracy?

Again, I respect MANY MANY of General Clark's positions, but this one is not only a cause for disrespect, but a cause for repudiation.

The closed door secret policy at SOTA or WHISC or whatever you want to call it now certainly doesn't shed any additional light.

I will say this: General Clark may see SOME need for SOME of the ideals taught at SOTA...to wit...violent revolution is bad for populations and they can never be safe so if one actually DOES make democratic changes in their country then SOME degree of military force MAY be necessary to quell those that would interfere...however, the TACTICS taught at this school CLEARLY crossed the line of human rights. I am ONE AMERICAN who is sick and tired of our policies abroad moving farther and farther AWAY from the issue of human rights.

[NV1962]

110. I don't think we disagree on the premise, but on the conclusion

First, I'll address your three questions:

1. What things would have happened differently in Nicaragua and Guatemala had WE NOT trained murderous thugs how to control population by propaganda campaigns?
   
2. What would the economy be like in Nicaragua had we NOT trained the "Freedom fighters" how to bomb commodities such as corn and sugar?
   
3. How is teaching POPULATION control through manipulation and terror, teaching the principles of Democracy?

1) As much as I agree that SOA played a key role, let's not forget on whose shoulders the burden for that crime really rests: the President. Without his authorization, fat chance that that trafficking in social depravity would have taken place. What happened in Central America during the late 70s and especially during the 80s is an accusation that lies, in my opinion, entirely at the feet of government. The military personnel teaching at SOA was carrying out the President's policy, following orders. SOA was "useful" because it provided a means of "remote control" (read: clean hands) over a foreign situation, without having to commit troops in action there. It's a "cheap" solution, maybe not economically, but politically it's a steal.

2) You forgot to mention a patent breach of international law, committed by the role model of the current criminal in the WH: mining the harbor! Yet, even the acts of sabotage within Nicaragua that you refer to are relative peanuts, compared to the damage of the economic blockade imposed by Reagan. Again: presidential policy, presidential responsibility. What a pity that the votes kept going his way... To this day, the impunity for those past crimes persists (and that of many others that overflow the scope of this topic.)

3) Ah, but there lies the rub: what you see is not what you get... We say that we teach "American values" but we teach repression methods instead... Shhhh! What, hypocrisy you say? How dare you!

However... These three very valid questions you pose speak to the SOA as it became - not to its fundamental (theoretic) mission. Not to "what it should / was meant to be."

I believe that our respective views on the SOA/WHISC's grim track record in Central America (e.g., El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua... Etc.) are pretty similar.

Where we perhaps start to diverge is on whether the idea of providing an ideological / politological component to a "purely" military academic curriculum is a good idea, or not. And I say perhaps, because I haven't read your opinion on that basic idea, which (again) is the original foundation of the SOA.

Just in case we do differ, I'll lay out "my" case here. As said before, it was JFK who amplified that function within the SOA, which is a decision that can't be seen outside the context of the Cold War, and especially Kennedy's commitment to keeping the Americas out of the SU's sphere of influence. Also, that "teaching American values" stuff isn't too remote from other famous Kennedy initiatives, e.g. the Peace Corps. It sorta "fits neatly" in there.

But... Fast forward to the 70s, when the "ideological curriculum" increasingly became a loincloth for teaching foreign soldiers that terrorizing, torturing and murdering their civilian population is OK - as long as it helps to control those "pesky commies" whenever they posed any significant threat to US strategic interests, read: big corporations.

During Reagan, things really went off the scale. Aside from the SOA training death squad cadre, lots of money, weapons, logistical and tactical (intel) resources were pumped into that bloody genocidal machine. SOA wasn't but a cog in a crushing and murderous apparatus. Iran/Contra, etc. etc. (Furthermore, I don't think it's entirely left of field to suspect a connection there with the bloody invasion of Panama and the capture of Manuel Noriega, during Bush Sr's administration, i.e. to wipe out embarrassing traces of evidence that could link a massive hard drugs operation into US foreign policy. But that's another topic.)

I believe that this heinous development is an extreme perversion of an otherwise sound idea.

One of the things that "sting" in my mind, thinking about the two terms of President Clinton, is the kid glove treatment given to this sordid legacy of the SOA. I think it's pretty shameful that it was, in fact, during George HW Bush's administration that the bulk of "reform" of the SOA took place - and I put that word in quotes to express doubts over the mostly nominal changes. I think that two terms of a Democratic President gave ample opportunity to wipe out that stain, in a strong and committed effort that should have restored a much more broad legitimacy to that fundamental mission: teaching military not only about tactics and strategy, but also their place, role and responsibility at the service of a society under democratic rule.

I think it's a crying shame that under Bill Clinton this sordid SOA legacy wasn't "cleaned up." And I could be wrong, but I haven't heard Al Gore express more ambitious ideas in that direction, either.

Now, it could be argued that Wes Clark, with his lifelong US Army commitment, wouldn't be the most obvious choice to "clean up". A conflict of interest / loyalty thing, sorta. Well... I see this with a Kennedy twist: why not?

With is background -- heck, he even taught there once -- he commands both knowledge and authority to (finally!) put that sordid past to rest.

I think he's the best guy to sanitize the WHISC.

And I truly believe that that is why isn't willing to "kill it" - because his experience in former Yugoslavia points out that it is foolish, dangerous even to throw away the infant with the bathing water.

Dangerous, because providing key members of "friendly forces" with weapons and purely technical ("military knowledge") assistance alone, and no ideological feedback, cuts off and denies valuable opportunities to establish strong ties, and teach values that really are (and do) an awful lot of good, in short: when really American values are taught to visiting military students.

In short: I think we share the apprehension over the premise -- the sordid past of the SOA -- but I'm not sure we agree on the conclusion.

But I hope that at least I made a reasonable case that those statements of Wes Clark, mentioned at the beginning of this topic about the SOA, needn't be thrown as a projectile against his candidacy.

[Bolo Boffin]

39. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Let's tar Max Cleland with the same brush...

Having said that, in my opinion we should and must continue such efforts as military education for our allies through the Marshall Center in Europe, the School of the Americas, and similar programs. It has always been my belief that those who understand war, including the true costs of war, understand peace and all of its blessings. Today, we train our military in the strategy of war and the art of peace. U.S. military personnel are well schooled as students of (Karl von) Clausewitz, Sun Tzu, (Alfred Thayer) Mahan, and the best known writers of conflict and engagement. At the same time, they also receive thorough and effective training in such fundamental American principles as subordination of the military to civilian control and respect for human rights. While our foreign military education efforts have not always succeeded in instilling such values, I believe that recent reforms will eliminate any such shortcomings in the future.

KEEPING OUR PRIORITIES WHILE KEEPING THE PEACE - Senator Max Cleland

You've listed 18 people out of 63,000 graduates. That's .03%. As General Clark has said, a small minority.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

40. what what have these "18" people done?

School of Assassins
by Mary Turck

What do Col. Byron Lima Estrada of Guatemala, Lt. Josê Espinoza Guerra and General Juan Orlando Zepeda, both of El Salvador, and General Juan López Ortiz of Mexico have in common?

They are all murderers. They were all trained at the School of the Americas. Because of them, and because of thousands of others like them, many people call U.S. Army's School of the Americas the "School of Assassins."

And what do Panama's Manuel Noriega, Argentina's Leopoldo Galtiere, Peru's Juan Velasco Alvarado, Ecuador's Guillermo Rodriguez, and Bolivia's Hugo Banzer have in common? They have all been dictators in their countries, and they were all trained at the School of the Americas. Because of them, and others, many people call the U.S. Army's School of the Americas the "School of Coups."

The School of the Americas (SOA) is a military training school for Latin American soldiers. SOA is an official program of the U.S. government, funded by the government and run by the U.S. Armed Forces since 1946. SOA graduates have long been implicated in terrorism, human rights violations, coercion, and atrocities committed against civilian populations across Latin America.

Until now, evidence against the SOA has been mostly anecdotal. Sure, its supporters say, SOA graduates brutally murdered six Jesuit priests and their housekeeper and her daughter in El Salvador in 1989 and took part in the massacre of 900 people in El Mozote, El Salvador. Yes, they acknowledge, SOA alum Byron Lima Estrada was convicted this year of murdering Guatemalan Bishop Juan Gerardi in 1998. And it's true that another SOA graduate commanded the unit that carried out the 1994 Ocosingo massacre in Mexico. When pressed, they will even admit that, during the 1980s, SOA manuals recommended blackmail, torture and execution of political dissidents. But these were aberrations, SOA supporters insist. Most SOA grads do not torture. And SOA doesn't even exist any longer. Now it's called WHISC and everything is better.

A University of Wisconsin graduate thesis demonstrates that the defenders of SOA are wrong. Studying data on individual SOA graduates over a 40-year time span, Kate McCoy found that "students who took multiple courses at the School were more almost four times more likely to violate than their counterparts who took only one course. ... reater exposure to the School of the Americas training makes trainees more likely to engage in human rights violations ..." .

In its 57 years, the School of the Americas has trained more than 61,000 Latin American officers in combat techniques, command tactics, military intelligence, and techniques of torture. These graduates have left a trail of blood and suffering in their own countries. Today, SOA/WHISC trains about a thousand soldiers each year.

McCoy's study also addresses SOA supporters' claims that the school changed during the 1980s, and now gives better training in human rights. Her statistics show that "contrary to the Army's claims that the School of the Americas has corrected past faults and that professional standards have been raised over time to promote the highest respect for human rights, there is no statistical evidence that students who attended the School in the 1990s were less likely to engage in human rights violations than those who graduated in the 1960s."

On January 21, 2001, SOA's name was changed to the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHISC). But only the name was changed-its mission and its shame continue. No one really believes that makes a difference.

McCoy's study did not include data from the WHISC years of 2001 and later-the Bush administration insists that this data will not be released because of "national security" concerns. That means future researchers will not be able to reveal such embarrassing statistics about SOA/WHISC. McCoy observes regretfully that the Bush administration's move means "studies such as this one could not be updated, and it may become increasingly difficult for researchers to apply their tools to vital social and political questions."

Every November, opponents of the School of the Americas gather for a massive demonstration outside the gates of this school for terrorism. They carry crosses and banners with names of people murdered by SOA graduates. They sing and pray and chant. Some cross the line painted on a street outside the gates of Fort Benning, committing civil disobedience.

Dozens of the demonstrators-like a 68-year-old Sister Caryl Hartges from Wisconsin-end up serving time in federal prisons. She crossed the line last year, on her fifth trip to the demonstrations at Fort Benning. Sister Caryl served her time. And she's coming back to SOA this November 22. She explains that, "It has do with the call of the Gospel, which is a call for justice, which sometimes takes precedence over the law of the land."

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1118-12.htm

[ProudToBeLiberal]

41. transcript of the video about SOA

School of the Americas: School of Assassins
Maryknoll World Productions (1995: 18 minutes)
Narrated by Susan Sarandon
Transcribed by Darrell G. Moen

Susan Sarandon: In the late afternoon of December 4, 1980, an unmarked grave was found in a field in El Salvador. When it was opened in the presence of the U.S. ambassador, it revealed the bodies of four women: Maryknoll Sisters Mara Clark and Eda Ford, Ursaline Sister Dorothy Kazel, and lay missionary Jean Donovan.

Of the five officers later found responsible for the rape and murder of these women, three were graduates of the United States Army School of the Americas. According to the Pentagon, the mission of the school is to train the armed forces of Latin America, promote military professionalism, foster cooperation among multinational military forces, and to expand the trainees' knowledge of United States customs and traditions.

The School of the Americas originated in 1946 in Panama. Now, it is located on the grounds of Fort Benning, Georgia. The school teaches commando operations, sniper training, how to fire an M-16, and psychological warfare. Since no major declared war between Latin American countries has occurred in decades and the communist threat has vanished, why provide this kind of training?

Representative Joseph Kennedy: If you look at the course ranges that are offered to these inividuals, they in fact are a dedicated way of teaching military leaders in foreign nations how to subvert their local communities.

Susan Sarandon: Since it opened, more than 55,000 military officials from 23 Latin American and Carribean countries have trained at the school. About 2,000 students a year. As facts have emerged about the school and its graduates, it has drawn the attention of a growing number of human rights activists, such as Maryknoll Father Roy Bourgeois.

Maryknoll Father Roy Bourgeois: Just down the road here is the School of the Americas. It's a combat school. Most of the courses revolve around what they call "counter-insurgency warfare." Who are the "insurgents?" We have to ask that question. They are the poor. They are the people in Latin America who call for reform. They are the landless peasants who are hungry. They are health care workers, human rights advocates, labor organizers. They become the insurgents. They are seen as "the enemy." They are those who become the targets of those who learn their lessons at the School of the Americas.

Susan Sarandon: What has been learned about the lessons taught at the school? In the 1980s, the civil war in El Salvador became a focal point for human rights activists throughout the world. Death squads operated freely, often killing 50 people a night. There were so many cases that on March 23, 1980, Archbishop Oscar Romero in San Salvador made a plea to the military leaders of his country.

Archbishop Oscar Romero: I would like to make an appeal in a special way to the men of the army. In the name of God, in the name of the suffering people whose laments rise to the heaven each day more tumultuous, I ask you, I order you in the name of God, stop the repression.

Susan Sarandon: While celebrating mass the next day, Archbishop Romero was assassinated. A number of years later, the National Security Archives in Washington D.C. made an important discovery when they obtained a copy of a declassified cable, Cape Dole. Woman working at the National Security Archives: These two cables are both from the American Embassy in El Salvador.

One is from Dean Hinton, who was then Ambassador to El Salvador in 1981. And it discusses a meeting during which Roberto D'Aubuisson plans the murder of Archbishop Romero. During the meeting, there is described a lottery that the people who are attending the meeting hold to see who would draw the "right" to kill Romero himself.

Susan Sarandon: D'Aubuisson was trained at the School of the Americas. Also trained at the school were two of the three officers directly responsible for the assassination. December 11, 1981: El Mazote, a small village in El Salvador...

Rufina Amaya (survivor of the El Mazote massacre): First, they forced everyone out of their houses and made us all lie face down in the street, both men and women. There were soldiers on both sides. Then, they moved away to see the women kneeling down on the ground to pray. They killed all of them. Not a single one of them survived, just me by the grace of God. I hid under a tree. When I heard the screams of the children, and I knew which ones were mine, they were crying, "Mommy, they're killing us."

Susan Sarandon: Over 900 men, women, and children were massacred. Virtually the entire population of the village and the area surrounding El Mazote. Out of 143 bodies identified in the laboratory, 131 were of children under the age of 12, including three infants under the age of three months. Ten of the 12 officers cited as responsible for the El Mazote massacre were graduates of the School of the Americas.

They were members of the Atlacatl Battalion, a part of the El Salvador Army. November 16, 1989: San Salvador. Six Jesuit priests, their housekeeper, and her 15-year-old daughter were slaughtered. To get the facts about this incident, a U.S. Congressional Investigation began, led by Representative Joseph Mokely.

Representative Joseph Mokely: I went down . I talked with the Embassy, talked with the military, talked with the unionists. I had meetings set up in very dingy places to talk with people who didn't want to talk to me in public. And we gathered enough information that we pushed the investigation to the degree that it was concluded and the people who perpetrated the crime were found guilty. The killing was done by the Atlacatl Battalion which is the crack battalion in that country. And these are the people, some of them had just returned from the United States, where they were taught a course on "human rights" amongst other things.

Susan Sarandon: Nineteen of the 26 officers implicated in the Jesuit murders were graduates of the school, including Yushi Renee Mendoza, the lieutenant in charge of the squad that killed the Jesuits and the two women. He attended a commando course a year before the massacre took place.

Representative Joseph Mokely: The Truth Commission to the U.N. substantiated everything that I had brought forward.

Susan Sarandon: The United Nations Truth Commission Report released on March 15, 1993, cited specific officers for committing atrocities during the El Salvador civil war. At School of the Americas Watch just outside Fort Benning, Georgia, Vicky Imerman matched the names cited in the U.N. Report with names in a United States Government document.

Vicky Imerman: What I did was I took these officers, all the officers listed in the report and I looked them up in list of graduates of the School of the Americas which we received through the Freedom of Information Act. What I found were 49 of the 60-some officers listed were graduates of the School of the Americas. These officers attended the school both before and after they committed atrocities. Francisco Del Cid, right here, was on the Commandant's List a couple of years after he ordered the massacre of about 16 civilians and had their corpses burned.

Susan Sarandon: El Salvador is only part of the school's story. In the entry area of one of its main buildings are photographs of those the school honors, its so-called Hall of Fame. At the top of the list, Hugo Banzer, former dictator of Bolivia, a graduate of the school. Some of the others similarly honored are the former dictators of Honduras, Ecuador, and Argentina. And generals from eight other Latin and Caribbean nations, many cited by human rights groups for involvement in human rights abuses in their own countries.

Among other graduates, Manuel Noriega, former president of Panama, currently in prison in the United States. Four of the five ranking Honduran officers who organized death squads in the 1980s as part of Battalion 316, are graduates. Half of the 250 Columbian officers cited for human rights abuses attended the school. The three highest ranking Peruvian officers convicted in February 1994 of murdering nine university students and a professor were all graduates. Also, the Peruvian army commander who brought out tanks to obstruct initial investigation of the murders.

During the dictatorship of the Somoza family , over 4,000 National Guard troops graduated from the school. Many of them later became known as the "Contras," responsible for the deaths of thousands of Nicaraguan peasants in the 1980s. The general in charge of Argentina's so-called "Dirty War" was a school graduate. During that internal conflict in the late-1970s and early-1980s, an estimated 30,000 people were tortured, disappeared, and murdered.

General Hector Gramajo of Guatemala was the featured speaker at the school's graduation ceremonies in 1991. Human rights groups claim he is the architect of strategies that legalized military atrocities in Guatemala resulting in the death of over 200,000 men, women, and children.

Maryknoll Father Roy Bourgeois: As a Catholic priest, as a U.S. citizen, I really feel a responsibility to speak out against that because of this . This does not lead to healing, it leads to death and suffering. In a way, this is a death machine. And this, I want to say, is very close to home because it's in our backyard. It's not out there in El Salvador. This is not in South Africa. We're talking about a school of assassins right here in our backyard being supported and financed through our tax money. It's being done in our names.

Susan Sarandon: $30 million of U.S. taxpayer money was recently spent to renovate school headquarters and these housing units for soldiers attending the school.

Vicky Imerman: It's an outrage. It's the use of our tax dollars, American tax dollars, for what I think your average American feels is a distinctly un-American purpose.

Susan Sarandon: On September 30, 1993, the School of the Americas was debated by Congress for the first time in its history. It happened when an amendment to the Defense Department budget was introduced by Congressman Joseph Kennedy.

Congressman Joseph Kennedy: Mr. Speaker, my amendment would reduce the Army operation and maintenance account by $2.9 million, the amount dedicated to running the Army School of the Americas at Fort Benning, Georgia. The intent of this amendment is to close the school.

Representative John Lewis: Why should we continue to fund and condone military-inspired murder? Why should we continue to train thugs to kill their own people? Vote for peace. Vote for non-violence. Vote for harmony. Vote for the Kennedy Amendment

Susan Sarandon: 174 voted in favor, 256 against.

Congressman Joseph Kennedy: We're only 30 or 40 votes short of winning. That means that if people around the country hear about this and write their congressman, we can win.This is an issue that we can win on.

Maryknoll Father Roy Bourgeois: And what's very important right now I feel is to let out voices be heard. Bishop Romero said it best before he was assassinated by someone who trained at the School of the Americas. He said, "We who have a voice, we have to speak for the voiceless." I realize that we here in this country have a voice. We can speak without having to worry about being dissappeared or tortured or being picked by . We can speak, and I just hope that we can speak clearly and boldly on this issue.

Susan Sarandon: In April 1994, a group of human rights activists from around the country began a 40-day fast on the steps of the U.S. Capitol. They were there to make their case for shutting down the School of the Americas. The day before the fast ended, Congressman Kennedy joined them in a press conference.

Congressman Joseph Kennedy: The so-called Hall of Fame in Georgia is nothing more than a Hall of Shame for the people of our country. We, as a nation and as a people have a right and an obligation to say what we believe in in terms of how our dollars are going to be spent. What we are saying unequivocably is that we do not want to be associated with the kinds of individuals that are torturing, maiming, and killing innnocent people throughout Latin America. That's what this bill is all about and that's what your commitment is all about, and we commit to working until this bill is passed.

Susan Sarandon: The next day, Congressman Kennedy's second effort to shut the school was defeated by a smaller margin than his first one. 175 voted for his amendment, 217 against.

Unidentified El Salvadoran woman: I'm not very educated, but in my simple words I think that the only thing the School of the Americas has accomplished is the destruction of our countries in Latin America. Don't give us any more of that military aid. It would be better to help the poor who are in need.

Maryknoll Father Roy Bourgeois: We need the voices of others, and we also need those letters to congressional leaders. To let them know that we will not allow them to use our money to run a school of assassins.


http://www.tsujiru.net/moen/video_trans/017.html

[Hoppin_Mad]

42. Cleland represented GA - There's NO way he could recommend closing it -eom

[ProudToBeLiberal]

43. 18 is to lenient

Between 1961 and 1966, nine Latin American governments were overthrown by military coups, including those of Guatemala and Honduras. <1> SOA graduates were involved with all of these coups. Since 1968, ten SOA graduates have become heads of state in six different Latin American countries through non-democratic means. <2>

/snip/

19 of 27 Salvadoran officers responsible for killing 8 people at Central America University were SOA graduates, as were almost three-fourths of Salvadoran officers involved in 7 other massacres.

Six Peruvian officers involved in the death-squad murders of 9 students and 1 professor near Lima were SOA graduates.
19 officers linked with the infamous Honduran death-squad “Battalion 16” were SOA graduates.

10 of the 12 Salvadoran officers implicated in the massacre of 900 people in the village of El Mozote were SOA graduates.

SOA graduate Roberto D’Aubuisson ordered the assassination of Salvadoran Archbishop Oscar Romero in 1980. Romero was killed in the middle of celebrating Mass. Two of the three assassins were also SOA-trained.

more...

http://www.greens.org/s-r/30/30-07.html

[Hoppin_Mad]

44. There are HUNDREDS - maybe THOUSANDS - not DOZENS >

Here's over 100 right here !

Half of the 250 Columbian officers cited for human rights abuses attended the school. The three highest ranking Peruvian officers convicted in February 1994 of murdering nine university students and a professor were all graduates. Also, the Peruvian army commander who brought out tanks to obstruct initial investigation of the murders.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

45. congressional concerns

CONGRESSIONAL CONCERNS AND LEGISLATIVE ACTION

Questions over continued funding of the School of the Americas were raised in Congress in 1993 and will likely be raised again in 1994. On September 30, 1993, the House rejected, by a vote of 174-256, an amendment to the FY1994 Defense Appropriations measure (P.L. 103-139, H.R. 3116) offered by Representative Joseph P. Kennedy II that would have cut 2.9 million from the Army's operation and maintenance account. The amount reduced would have been equal to the amount dedicated to running the School, and the intent of the amendment, according to the sponsor, was to close the School. If the amendment had been approved, however, the School would not necessarily have been closed because the amendment did not preclude the Army from utilizing other monies in its operations and maintenance account for the School. The amendment also would not have affected the School's funding received from FMS, IMET, and INM programs provided for in foreign assistance legislation.

Human Rights Violations.
As reflected in the 1993 debate, most concerns about the School have centered on graduates who have been implicated in--or are alleged to be responsible for-human rights violations in their countries. According to critics, the School has a history and tradition of abusive graduates who violate human rights. Observers point out that School alumni include: 48 out of 69 Salvadoran military members cited in the U.N. Truth Commission's report on El Salvador for involvement in human rights violations (including 19 of 27 military members implicated in the 1989 murder of six Jesuit priests), 2 and more than 100 Colombian military officers alleged to be responsible for human rights violations by a 1992 report issued by several

------------------

2 The U.N. Truth Commission Report on El Salvador and the U.S. Army School of the Americas. Washington Office on Latin America. August 27, 1993.

--------------------

human rights organizations. 3 Press reports have also alleged that school graduates have included several Peruvian military officers linked to the July 1992 killings of nine students and a professor from La Cantuta University, and included several Honduran officers linked to a clandestine military force known as Battalion 316 responsible for disappearances in the early 1980s. 4 Critics of the School maintain that soldiers who are chosen to attend are not properly screened, with the result that some students and instructors have attended the School after being implicated in human rights violations.

/snip/

School for Dictators?
Critics have labeled the School of the Americas a "school for dictators." The ten former Latin American heads of state who attended the School of the Americas include General Manuel Antonio Noriega of Panama, military ruler from 1983 until his ouster from power by U.S. forces in December 1989. In 1992, Noriega was convicted and sentenced in a U.S. Federal court to 40 years in prison on drug trafficking charges, while subsequently he was sentenced in Panama for the 1985 murder of a Panamanian opposition leader and for the October 1989 murder of a Panamanian military officer who led an unsuccessful coup against him. Another Panamanian leader who attended the School of the Americas is General Omar Torrijos who emerged as Panama's de facto political leader after the National Guard overthrew the elected civilian government of Arnulfo Arias in 1968, and ruled either as official head of government or de facto political leader until his death in a plane crash in 1981. While many observers would label Torrijos a populist leader, others criticize the general for his repression of opposition sectors.

Two additional School alumni who overthrew elected civilian governments are Major General Guillermo Rodriguez (1972-76), who overthrew Ecuadorian President Jose Maria Velasco Ibarra, and Major General Juan Velasco Alvarado (1968-1975), who overthrew Peruvian President Fernando Belaunde Terry. Breaking with the pattern of previous military leaders in these two countries, Rodriguez and Alvarado initiated extensive periods of direct military rule, seven years in Ecuador and twelve years in Peru.

The six remaining Latin American military rulers who attended the School of the Americas consist of two each from Argentina, Bolivia, and Honduras, all of whom succeeded military rulers. In Argentina, Lieutenant General Roberto Viola led a short-lived military government from March to December 1981, but was ousted because of his failure to contain a rapidly deteriorating economy.

--------------------

6 Ibid. p. 11.

7 Call, Charles T. Academy of Torture. Miami Herald. August 9, 1993.

----------------------

After Argentina's return to democracy, Viola was convicted and sentenced to 17 years in prison for criminal responsibility for human rights violations during Argentina's so-called "dirty-war against subversion" in the 1970s. 8 Viola was succeeded by Lieutenant General Leopoldo Galtieri, another School graduate, who ruled from December 1981 until June 1982. Galtieri led Argentina during the unsuccessful war with Britain over the Falkland Islands.

In Bolivia, General Hugo Banzer Suarez led a bloody coup in 1971 overthrowing military leader General Juan Jose Torres. According to many observers, Banzer's rule until 1978--referred to as the Banzerato--was repressive, with labor leaders and leftist politicians exiled, jailed, and killed. 9 The Banzerato was characterized by relative political stability, however, with initial support from the country's major political party, the Nationalist Revolutionary Movement (MNR). In contrast to Banzer, another School graduate from Bolivia, Major General Guido Vildoso Calderon, ruled from July to October 1982 and had been chosen by the Bolivian military to return the country to civilian democratic rule.

In Honduras, School of the Americas graduate Brigadier General Juan Melgar Castro became president in 1975 when the military command ousted General Oswaldo Lopez Arellano from power. Melgar Castro in turn was ousted in 1978 by the military high command and was replaced by School of the Americas alum Policarpo Paz Garcia who returned Honduras to civilian democratic rule in 1982, albeit with substantial pressure from the United States.

more...

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/soa.htm

[ProudToBeLiberal]

46. more proof

According to Representative Martin Meehan (D-Mass.), "If the School of the Americas held an alumni association meeting, it would bring together some of the most unsavory thugs in the hemisphere."

El Salvador is only part of the School's story. According to Newsweek Magazine, August 9, 1993, "A Newsweek investigation of the School of the Americas turned up hundreds of less than honorable graduates--some of them petty thugs, some of them top military brass. At least six Peruvian officers linked to a military death squad that killed nine students and one professor at a university near Lima last year were graduates of the school. Four of five senior Honduran officers accused in a 1987 Americas Watch report of organizing a secret death squad called Battalion 316 were trained there. Last year a coalition of international human rights groups issued a report charging 246 Colombian officers with human-rights violations; 105 were school alumni."

/snip/

Last year Representative Joseph Kennedy (D-Mass.) introduced an amendment to the House Defense Appropriations Bill to eliminate Department of Defense funding to the School of the Americas. The intent of the amendment was to close the School, which Mr. Kennedy said, "cost millions of dollars a year and identifies us with tyranny and oppression."

more...

http://zena.secureforum.com/Znet/zmag/articles/sept94bourgeois.htm

[Hoppin_Mad]

47. Important to note - Gebhardt + Kucinch condemmed and voted to close it -nt

[ProudToBeLiberal]

48. thanks n/t

[ProudToBeLiberal]

50. Kucinich: I Will Close School of Americas

Kucinich: I Will Close School of Americas
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
November 21, 2003


Over the next three days, thousands are expected to protest the School of the Americas in Fort Benning, Ga. (The school has been renamed Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation.)

Presidential Candidate Dennis Kucinich today released the following statement:

"I stand against terror and violence and in solidarity with the victims of the School of the Americas graduates. I support nonviolent demonstration against the SOA. The United States' ability to persuade other nations to investigate terrorism will be strengthened by the closing of a US school that has trained over 60,000 Latin American soldiers to wage war against their own people, against union organizers, religious workers, teachers, and student leaders. As president I will close the School of the Americas."

Rev. Roy Bourgeois, MM, Founder of SOA WATCH and Dennis Kucinich endorser, said:

"Today our world is filled with violence and people are looking for hope. I am supporting Dennis Kucinich for President because he is the person who can bring more peace and justice in our country and in our world. These are challenging times and Dennis Kucinich has the wisdom, integrity, vision and courage to give us the hope our country is seeking today."

http://www.kucinich.us/pressreleases/pr_112103c.php

[JohnKleeb]

105. Good for Gep

I hope the others will consider it as well.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

49. SOA teaches torture

The SOA controversy intensified when a 1992 report declassified by the Pentagon in 1996 revealed the details of a manual used at SOA in the 1980s that advocated tactics such as beatings, false imprisonment, execution and bounty payments for enemy dead.

/snip/

Opponents were not appeased. They wanted the school shut down. Some protests were loud, such as the ones staged every November 16 for the past 10 years outside the gates of the school. They commemorate the killings in El Salvador on that date in 1989 of six Jesuit priests, deaths to which some of the graduates of the school have been linked. Notable among the protesters in recent years has been actor Martin Sheen, star of the TV drama, "The West Wing."

more...

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/18/spotlight/

[bowens43]

51. The short answer:

He's a neo-con.

[CivilRightsNow]

68. The most obvious one too...

But he is so many people's great white hope they would think some tapes by dean or gf contest by kucinich could be even in the same league as this....

It boggles the mind.

[exJW]

99. the silliest one too

whatever else is true, SOA was a going concern way, way, way before the term neo-con came into use, and is not connected even today with the term.

[quaker bill]

53. I generally like Wes Clark

But, being directly familiar with the handiwork of graduates of this institution, I have a huge problem with his support of this.

I spent alot of time raising money getting supplies for famine relief and care of war orphans in Central America during the 1980's only to have it blown up by these bozos. Fortunately, my friends were not in the buildings at the time.

Other friends of mine have gone to prison for non-violent civil disobedience at the gates of SOA. This is a huge problem for me.

[sleipnir]

54. I'm going to second your post QuakerBill...

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I also generally (no pun intended) like Clark, but this is beyond the pale. And worse, it's true. I feel this is worse than the "Dean issues" that I'm having to reconcile to consider supporting that man. To support murderers and war criminals, well, this deeply disturbs me about his ability to lead our contry peacefully and honorably. Hummmm....

I venture a guess that if this circulates a bit more, we'll see a reversal of opinion from the Clark camp. The typical type of shifting that occurs with Clark, he takes a dangerous right-wing position and when his left-wing supporters point this out or popular opinion shifts, it quickly changes.

Go Kucinich!!! (And was happy to see that Gephardt actually did something right for a change)

[JNelson6563]

57. I too used to be pretty fond of the General

but the more I learn the more I reconsider that position. This is very distressing.

Julie

[diamondsoul]

59. Here's what I think people don't get about Clark

and I don't agree with it but it does make sense-

We're talking about a Career Army man here, one of the top ranking military men in the country for a long time. For him now to stand as a civilian and say that something within the military training structure is inherently bad would be the same as saying his entire career was inherently bad. He doesn't believe that and he's not going to say anything that might imply it.

He isn't going to withdraw from Iraq anytime soon should he be elected. He isn't going to thoroughly condemn the invasion (which is not to say his statements so far haven't been properly critical) because to do so would mean saying his colleagues, men and women identical to what he once was, can't be trusted to make decisions to deploy our troops for the right reasons. He'll never allow the United States to "lose" a military conflict and he won't say anything that might bring that about, either. It's loyalty to the organization known as the United States Army, and to all the branches of military services, frankly.

Is this making sense at all? My view of all this is pretty well neutral having been an Army brat all my life and now an Army Ntl. Guard spouse. It can be a good thing to have this kind of loyalty to the organization in a soldier, but I'm not convinced it's a good thing to have in a President.

[stickdog]

60. If School days are the best of our lives ... (nt)

[lurk_no_more]

73. Have ANY of the candidates denounced the SOA?

Are any willing to shut it down? If this really is an issue to you, find a candidate that says he/she will shut it down and vote for him/her.

While this has been brought up here countless times, (old news comes to mind yet again) I've yet to see where anyones candidate is in favor of shutting it down, until I do, it is not an issue.

I don't have a problem with Clark's Graduation speech.


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[revcarol]

75. See post 50 above.

I guess that wanting to close the "School of Terror" is enough reason for everyone to marginalize Kucinich.

Only a real kook could speak up for human rights.Like President Carter...

[Hoppin_Mad]

79. Gebhardt and Kucinich VOTED to shut it down -eom-

[elixir]

76. I was suspect but look at it like this...

I myself was alarmed at the discovery. But as Clark discussed the issue yesterday on NHPR he made several good points. The skills that these people were taught at the SOA were not torture, murder and mayhem but strategy and martial expertise. How these folks become twisted is not happening at SOA but in their own countries.

As Clark said yesterday, the corporate executives pillaging our economy went to Yale, Harvard, etc. Should we shut down those institutions? Now I agree, it's not the same thing, but, think of a more likely parallel and ask yourself should the institution be closed due to the actions of a small minority of students/attendees?

[elixir]

77. And while we're at it let's talk about flag burning...

I was originally distressed by Clark when he said he supported dissent but opposed flag burning. But dissent against authority is needed to keep leaders in line, but, the american flag is a symbol of our country not our leaders. Why should we destroy a symbol of what we believe in - truth, justice and the american way (didn't superman say that?) when we should be questioning our leaders?

[TLM]

80. Because he's a conservative war monger... pretending to be a democrat

This is why he avaoids debates and doesn;t want to get in any situation where one of the real demcorats running might ask him about his support for the SOA or his support for Bush or his support for Reagan.

[floridaguy]

82. Clark avoiding debates?- now you're really reaching

Wes Clark made a briliant tactical decision to skip Iowa, because he got in the race so late. The new polls in Iowa show Dean and Kerry losing support, while Clark is gaining every day. I would say that he made a good decision.

Other than that, he has been front and center during debates, and I assure you he can out debate any of the candidates, especially when it comes to foreign policy, but of course, you probably don't want to say anything good about the military, right? What do you think will be on people's minds when the candidate debates Bush? Can you say Iraq? Now, we can either put a four star general up against the AWOL Texas National Guard flyboy, or Dean with his stellar medical deferment. Which one would you bet on?

[Cheswick2.0]

89. or a gutless move into his spidey hole

it's neither brilliant or tactical to be disrespectful to voters

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cheswick2.0]

87. here ya go

http://www.soawne.org/SOAManuals.html

[drfemoe]

86. I can only think of one reason ...

the name says it all ..

[Capn Sunshine]

90. I worked with a couple of SOA "Grads"

in Costa Rica and Nicaragua. It should be common knowlege that nothing spoken of here is on the record.

The universal, almost unanimous viewpoint shared by these guys is what is important. To pretend it doesn't exist is to pretend the US Armed forces never put their troops at the disposal of less than honorable motives and players.

Don't get me started about SOA. Chile anyone?

[FubarFly]

88. That 's the kind of question..

Clark should answer himself. It will be a test to see how on the ball his campaign is. If he can't nip questions like these in the bud, how earth will he fare when he's up against Rove?

:shrug:

[FubarFly]

91. Because this is the kind of thing Clark will be smeared with

relentlessly. And wishing it away won't make it happen. The GOP will try to paint clark as UNSTABLE and UNTRUSTWORTHY. His campaign needs to start fighting these memes right now. Clark supporters should have a solid ready defense for EVERY aspect of Clark's background. And if you don't already, ask yourself, why not?

Dean is taking most of the flak as the frontrunner. But Karl Rove has one eye firmly planted on Clark. The lack of response on this thread scares me more than the charges possibly could.

[Tinoire]

93. Clark lobbied to keep this torture/assassination school open

<snip>

Clark fought for years to keep the school at Fort Benning, Ga., open, even testifying on its behalf in Congress, despite graduates like imprisoned Panamanian ex-strongman Manuel Noriega.

Clark's backing of the school - whose curriculum once included teaching torture, execution, kidnapping and blackmail - puts him at odds with many Democratic officials and groups like Amnesty International, who want the school closed.

Rep. Jim McGovern (D-Mass.) calls the school a "stain on our reputation" and leads the effort to close it. "With all due respect to the general, the school is an insult to our troops," he said. Nearly all Democrats in New York's congressional delegation oppose the school and Reps. Dick Gephardt (D-Mo.) and Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) voted to shut it.

<snip>
The school has served as a training ground for thousands of Latin American officers, whose instruction had reportedly including how to torture and assassinate. Aside from Noriega, the school is known for alums like Leopoldo Galtieri of Argentina, Haitian coup leader Raoul Cedras, Salvadoran death-squad organizer Roberto D'Aubuisson and former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet.

One of the most controversial school incidents occurred in November 1989, when a Salvadoran army patrol executed six Jesuit priests, their cook and her daughter. The United Nations found that 19 of the 26 soldiers graduated from the school.

<snip>

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/13799.htm

[stickdog]

94. I suggest a compromise here. Dean can be the President of USA, and

Clark can be the Dean of the SOA.

[blm]

95. Dean supported Reagan and Bush on those illegal wars in Central America.

And if you are so outraged by Clark's view on this, where is your outrage for Dean?

I guess it doesn't bother you to trash the real hero of that time, John Kerry, who exposed the illegal wars there and the CIA drugrunning.

Your sanctimony is not to be believed.

[maxanne]

123. that doesn't happen

to be the topic of the thread. Feel free to start a thread with your concerns.

[Tinoire]

97. Clark on the School of the Americas

"Kirk S." of Concord, NH asked Gen. Clark at Concord High School on January 8 about his continued support of the School of the Americas (SOA)

Kirk asked, "What can we do to reform the school?"

Clark responded, "It's not true that the school is connected to human rights abuses. Those things happened 25 years ago and nothing like that has happened since. You're uninformed."

http://www.birddogger.org/news.php?id=151

===

Question #1: A recent newspaper story says that you are a big booster of the controversial School of the Americas, the school that trained and graduated brutal dictators like Manuel Noriega and dictators from Haiti, Argentina and Chile. This is also the school that trained Salvadoran soldiers that executed six Jesuit priests, their cook and her daughter. Is it true that you delivered a commencement speech there a few years ago. And you said in testimony to Congress, There is nothing going on in these institutions that you in the United States Congress wouldn't be extraordinarily proud of?

General Clark: That's exactly right. That's exactly what I said. And I'll tell you why. Because, from the time the School of the Americas got started, it's been changed. A lot. We screen every student who goes there. And they are taught human rights instruction in every class. And it's not a school that's teaching any of the things that those people do. People that do things that are wrong, they are graduates of the School of the Americas, should be prosecuted. And many of them were. And Manuel Noriega is in jail thanks to the USA. But, that's not the majority. That's a tiny minority of the people who've been at the School of the Americas. What the School of the Americas does is teach human rights. And it's the only school we have that really does it. It's responsible for promoting human rights across Central America and South America. And rather than try to banish it, we should be rewarding it and encouraging people to come and supporting the minimal appropriations it takes to bring those foreign students here. Because, they truly are the people who have the opportunity to learn our values and they are our best hope for preventing human rights abuses in Central and South America. :wow:

<snip>

Question #2: Sir, I'm still reeling from your answer to the young lady here about the School of the Americas. But, its somewhat mitigated by your answer about respect to our neighbors that you gave on this side. The third recipient of foreign aid from the United States is Columbia. And part of that has to do with the drug trafficking, the drug problem we have here. Can you please tell me your position on the Black Columbia, which is most of the foreign aid, military aid, to Columbia.

General Clark: <snip>

First of all, ask yourself this. Have you been there? Have any of you been to the School of the Americas and seen it in the classroom? Have you seen the curriculum? Have you talked to the people who've been there? OK, but I have. I was in charge of it. And, I'm not going to have been in charge of a school that I can't be proud of and can't support. In countries in South America, there have been a lot of problems over time. And when we started the School of the Americas, we didn't have the same integrity and feeling for human rights that we do today. It was started as a cold war artifact. It was designed to promote anti-Communism. And a lot of its graduates went on to take over their countries.

<snip>

<snip> But, I can't get to Father Berrigan. And no matter what I've tried to do to get him to take an honest and objective look at the School of the Americas, he doesn't seem to want to do it.

So, I think it's real important that we keep that school. And that's why I'm defending it to you. And, I'll stake my credibility on it. <snip> I think we should be proud of it. Its one of the great things our country is doing to try to help Latin America.

http://www.birddogger.org/news.php?id=152

====

Irene asked, "You've stated repeatedly that you support the School of the Americas. In November of last year you were asked by a NH citizen about the many documented Human Rights abuses committed by SOA graduates. At the time you replied, "Imagine the things that would have happened if these soldiers hadn't been taught our principles of Democracy" and that you thought the school was "a good thing" and you "wouldn't kill it." Can you explain this position in light of the fact that many of the teaching materials used at the SOA involved methods of torture?"

Clark challenged the elderly woman (Irene) who asked the question by asking, "Have you seen these teaching materials?"

Irene responded that that no, she hadn't, but knew others who had.

Clark assured her that they didn't exist.

He also stated, "We're teaching police procedures and human rights . . . we don't teach torture . . . never taught torture."

<snip>

Gen. Clark repeated these remarks and challenge at the end of the "town hall meeting" which was covered by dozens of local and national media. This question was the only one that seemed to rattle his chains. He definitely seemed annoyed.

http://www.birddogger.org/news.php?id=150

I didn't get called on during the Q&A, though I did get his attention afterward when he was shaking hands. I asked him what the thought about the upcoming protests at the SOA and where he stood on the school's operation.

He said that he had once taught there and that he supported the school. When I aksed about the many documented Human Rights abuses commited by SOA graduates, his reply was, " Imagine the things that would have happened if these soldiers hadn't been taught our principles of Democracy." I then asked him if he would support the schools closing and he said "I think the school's a good thing, and no I wouldn't kill it."

http://www.birddogger.org/news.php?id=117

[maxanne]

100. thanks Tinoire

for posting this, and for linking to the birdogger site. They've done an excellent job of forcing all candidates to address a variety of issues. Thanks to birdoggers and homeless activists, Howard Dean signed on to the National Housing Trust. For anyone who thinks they have no voice - think again. This is is a low cost, extremely effective tool.

Arnie Alpert of the NH AFSC has been teaching high school kids how to birdog. What a great introduction to the world of politics, and making an impact. There isn't a candidate out there that will refuse to answer a high school kid's question. I saw a kid shock the hell out of Kerry last spring with a question about nuclear disarmement.

That SOA continues to exist is monstrous.

[Tinoire]

101. Thanks for the info on that site!

They seem excellent but I didn't know much about them. Your endorsement of it means a lot to me. Thanks!

[maxanne]

103. you're welcome

I'm not unbiased though - some of them are friends of mine. NHPR had a great segment on the birdoggers the other night.

[FubarFly]

106. Oh man.

This is some surprising information. This material should be food for thought no matter who your candidate may be. The SOA is some serious bad news.

[Bolo Boffin]

108. Clark Promised to Close the SOA! If...

...anyone can find evidence of the school currently teaching human rights abuses.

Here's the part that Tinoire "snipped" from his recap of birddogger.org articles.

http://www.birddogger.org/news.php?id=150

Also, "My friend George Bruno will show you . . . you can go down there , if you find anything that teaches human rights abuses . . . I'll close the SOA. If you don't find anything then I ask that you change your position."

What an interesting little snip. Clark promised to close the SOA if Irene or anyone can find anything that teaches human rights abuses.

[BootinUp]

116. Yes thanks

Clark explains it pretty straight forwardly, and makes a good case for this school. If there is some real evidence of the kinds of things people in this thread believe is going on, then get it to the right people, get it to the Clark campaign, he would follow up on it I believe.

[Hoppin_Mad]

122. Thanks for the research -eom-

[Crunchy Frog]

98. I will not try to defend

Clark's stance on the SOA. I hate that organization as much as anyone else here does, however, I do not necessarily believe that the reasons for his position are as nefarious as many here would like to believe.

He is certainly not the only Democrat to have defended or supported the school. I expect that his position derives partially from some blind spots that he has as a result of coming out of military culture. However, I don't think you will find any presidential candidate who doesn't have some blind spots.

The one positive that I see in this is that he very likely knows it to be a hot button issue with many Democrats, but he is saying what he thinks anyway, which to me is an indication that he will not simply taylor his message to what he thinks people want to hear. That actually speaks in a positive way for his integrity IMO.

[Tinoire]

102. How do you feel about his support for the NED?

(the National Endowment for Democracy) that was just caught financing the coup against Hugo Chavez in Venezuela? That's another one I have huge problems with.

Thanks for your honesty.

[Bolo Boffin]

104. NED is not a monolithic organization

NED distributes the bulk of its grants through four affiliate organizations. From their website:

http://www.ned.org/about/nedhistory.html

NED's creation was soon followed by establishment of the Center for International Private Enterprise (CIPE), the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs (NDI), and the National Republican Institute for International Affairs (later renamed the International Republican Institute or "IRI"), which joined the Free Trade Union Institute (FTUI) as the four affiliated institutions of the Endowment. (FTUI was later reorganized as the American Center for International Labor Solidarity, also known as the “Solidarity Center.”) This structure had been recommended by the Democracy Program for three basic reasons: first, because of the wide recognition of the parent bodies of these new entities as national institutions with a public character, an important asset for this non-governmental foundation; second, because they represent sectors of political life fundamental to any strong democracy; and third, to insure political balance. The Endowment would serve as the umbrella organization through which these four groups and an expanding number of other private sector groups would receive funding to carry out programs abroad.

The four affiliates have their respective biases: The CIPE is associated with the US Chamber of Commerce, and the ACILS with the AFL-CIO. The IRI is associated with the Republican Party, and the NDI with the Democratic Party. The board of directors, then, can best be compared to the governance of Germany after the war, divided up by France, England, Russia, and the USA.

Now, some organizations that undermined Hugo Chavez recieved loans and grants from NED, it is true, but the monies were solicited by these affiliate organizations. They are the ones that dealt with the Venezualan organizations, and not the NED board of directors. Which of the four gave out the questionable loans?

ACILS has some questions to answer, but the IRI is the most responsible for increasing NED grants to Venezualan groups, and their grants are the most questionable.

I've got a link, but the article has been archived into a pay site. Before that happened, I managed to copy part of the article at my blog:

For some observers, the most troubling grant was that to the IRI , because of its apparently false claims about the institution's work and its director's strong support for Chavez' ouster. The grant amount for the IRI, which has an office in Caracas, more than sextupled from $50,000 in 2000 to $339,998 in 2001.

In an April 12 facsimile sent to news media, IRI President George A. Folsom rejoiced over Chavez' removal from power. "The Venezuelan people rose up to defend democracy in their country," he wrote. "Venezuelans were provoked into action as a result of systematic repression by the government of Hugo Chavez."

Fanning the concerns about how the IRI may have utilized its NED funds are doubts regarding the accuracy of its reporting on activities in Venezuela. According to the organization's website, it has several times collaborated with a Venezuelan partner organization called the Youth Participation Foundation (FPJ). Indeed, working with the FPJ was the primary purpose of the IRI's $50,000 year 2000 grant. But dozens of Venezuelan politicians, activists, and nongovernmental organization (NGO) representatives interviewed for this story--including several who have worked with the IRI--had never heard of the FPJ.

According to the IRI's Caracas office, the FPJ ceased to exist "several years ago." According to the IRI website, prior to the 1998 elections the FPJ arranged a pair of youth forums featuring major presidential candidates. But neither the candidates nor the television station supposedly involved had any record or memory of such events.

Since Clark had last served in the Clinton administration, and stepped into the board on January 2001 after voting for Gore in November 2000 (and twice for Clinton before that), my hunch is that he was on the Democratic side of the agenda even then, and was only involved tangentally in these IRI loans and grants.

[Crunchy Frog]

109. Thank you for your civil

reply to my post. To be perfectly frank, I don't know very much about the NED or the extent of Clarks involvement in it. It is my understanding that many Democrats are associated with it, so I can not see it as a litmus test for whether Clark is a "true" Democrat.

Unlike many candidate supporters on this board, I freely admit that I do not support my candidate's position on every single issue, and I will not defend positions of his that I disagree with.

I am pragmatic enough to realize that every single candidate will have some positions or past actions that will sit very badly with me, and that includes my own candidate.

I support Clark for two reasons. First I think that he is the strongest possible candidate in the field to put up against GWB. Second, I think that overall he would be the best president during this particular period in American history. These opinions are the result of my own thought processes and evaluations of the big picture.

I've read enough of your posts to know that you violently disagree with me on both of these counts, and I'm OK with that. I think that it is possible to disagree and still maintain a certain level of respect and civility and I am glad to have been able to have a civil exchange with you.

Oh and I would have responded earlier but my computer kept freezing up on me. :)

[CWebster]

118. But you are defending

And it is simply breathtaking how you brush it away as an inconsequential "blind spot"...Not exactly the traits one looks for in the Democratic presidential candidate--an absence of consciousness in some of the most shameful human rights abuses in modern US history.

http://www.soawne.org/SOAManuals.html

[corporatewhore]

107. Maybe the same reason he wanted to continue bombing vieques

And i thought dean was bad

[slinkerwink]

111. I think bombing vieques should be stopped!

[dd123]

120. Charlie Rangel didn't look too happy when he found out that

the guy he endorsed early on was in favor of bombing Vieques.

I wonder what Rev. Al has to say about this.

[TexasSissy]

112. Eisenhower attended that school.

[hedda_foil]

114. Eisenhower?

Whether he did or not is irrelevant to the fact that SOA is a murderous training school for government-supported fascist terrorists, but please provide a cite.

[IndianaGreen]

115. Ike did not attend SOA

SOA was created in 1963.

The SOA's predecessor, the Latin American Training Center, was created in 1946, during the Truman Administration.

[quaker bill]

113. In contrast John Kerry on this issue

Congressional Record: September 2, 1998 (Senate)

FOREIGN OPERATIONS, EXPORT FINANCING, AND RELATED AGENCIES
APPROPRIATIONS ACT, 1999

Amendment No. 3527

(Purpose: Establish a procedure for the declassification of information
pertaining to Guatemala and Honduras)

Mr. DODD. Mr. President, I send an amendment to the desk and ask for
its immediate consideration.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The clerk will report.
The legislative clerk read as follows:

The Senator from Connecticut , for himself, and
Ms. Mikulski, Mr. Kerrey, Mr. Kerry, and Mr. Leahy, proposes
an amendment numbered 3527.

<snip>

Through the testimonies of Sister Dianna and members of Coalition Missing, a group she co-founded comprised of American citizens, Guatemalans living in the U.S. and their families who suffered torture and murder in Guatemala, the United States government felt compelled to investigate and publicly disclose CIA and other intelligence agency abuses in paying known human rights violators, referred to as "dirty assets," to spy for the U.S. As a result of the Intelligence Oversight Board investigation, at least 100 dirty assets were removed from the CIA's payroll and CIA station chiefs were fired from their positions in Guatemala for not reporting the extent of the crimes committed against the people of Guatemala by these dirty assets. This Intelligence Oversight Board (IOB) report recommended a number of reforms in the way intelligence agencies operate in an effort to bring them into line with American democratic values. The IOB also exposed the ugly fact that, for at least nine years, torture was being taught at the notorious School of the Americas in Fort Benning, Ga.


http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/senhria.html

The Dodd ammendment was to declassify and disclose the records of this abomination in regard to their central american exploits. It was defeated by the republicans. John Kerry was a sponsor. From what I have read of I like Kerry's work on this issue alot more than Clark's support of it's continued operation.

[IndianaGreen]

117. Kerry deserves kudos for this

Despite my strong disagreements with Kerry's pro-IWR vote, Kerry does have a long liberal voting record, a record that has been tarnished by his IWR vote.

[Hoppin_Mad]

148. Yes he does -eom-

[oasis]

119. Must not be a big deal for the Dean/Trippi campaign. No outrage there.

[maxanne]

121. lots of good information here

I don't think this thread should die.

:kick:

[jonnyblitz]

124. I agree

His response to the lady in NH on that birdogger site was pretty lame.
There is way too much data out there (books etc) for him to deny it and get away with it although his followers will take his word for it.


<snip>
Also, "My friend George Bruno will show you . . . you can go down there , if you find anything that teaches human rights abuses . . . I'll close the SOA. If you don't find anything then I ask that you change your position."
<snip>

http://www.birddogger.org/news.php?id=150



I am sure its all classified information and the average Joe just can't bust in there and ask to see documents! Geesh.

[Turkw]

127. No, it is misleading by not giving dates to the changes as to what is

taught there, or the dates to when the individuals listed attended the school. There was an overhaul in the courses taught- torture, assassination were removed- AS THEY NEEDED TO BE- the pro-democracy stuff is still too superficial, and should be increased to be a true component of the courses and be REQUIRED.

If you look at the statement that Clark is saying, I think he supports this principal, too bad the interviewer didn't ask a follow up question.

It is also misleading in that the question was put only in keep it open or close it. He should have asked WHAT should we do with the SOA. This is a program that the other countries have signed up for, what needs to be done is continued over site (which IS done, I believe by an outside organization) and further reform.

There are terrible problems in South and Central America, with the links to the drug trade, human rights abuses by rebel, government, right-wing paramilitary, and plain old criminal groups, corruption, and poverty. Any program that could be used in a positive way, should be. Human rights are certainly not going to served by leaving the worst of these militaries to their own devices.

[maxanne]

130. It seems

that not everyone agrees that changes have been made. Every year the American Friends Service Committee go there for a protest. I am certain they could use their time in better ways - so clearly they aren't convinced that SOA has become a kindler gentler place. The Quakers aren't exactly knee jerk reactionaries.

[slinkerwink]

133. same here too.....

[slinkerwink]

126. kick

[Moderator]

131. Hoppin_Mad

Per DU copyright rules
please post only four
articles from the news
source.


DU Moderator

[Hoppin_Mad]

150. OK - Will do -eom-

[dogman]

135. Once again?

This has been gone over but once again: Clark brought about changes in this program. How many graduates of Plymouth State or any other institution have been unethical or committed criminal acts? Should we close them all? American military have committed war crimes so are all military guilty? Should we abandon the military and surrender to whomever would overtake us? We sure wont be here to discuss it anymore.

[slinkerwink]

136. but why is Clark turning a blind eye to the atrocities of the SOA?

[BootinUp]

139. Post 108 is very enlightening

as to who is pretending to be blind.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=87542&mesg_id=93700&page=

[dogman]

140. Once again again?

He is not turning a blind eye. He has reformed the school when it was his job. As noted if you have proof, he will close it.

[maxanne]

141. if the reforms

have taken place (beyond the name change) than why do the protests there continue? Why haven't the Friends been convinced the changes have taken place? Why didn't Clark just close the place down?

[dogman]

142. Because

The place serves a function in the defense of this country. Some people are naive enough to believe we do not need to defend ourselves. If only that were the world we lived in. Imagine, but be real.

[maxanne]

143. how is a training school

for Latin American soldiers helping with our national defense?

[jonnyblitz]

137. so why the huge protests down there all the time then?

did these thousands of protesters not get the memo? This is the first I have heard about this "changes" stuff. :shrug:

[shivaji]

138. Lieberman attacking Clark on FOXNews just now...

Joe said Clark has taken 6 different positions on Iraq, and if he was the president, Saddam would be in power and dangerous. Joe also said Clark has no credibility when he promises there would be no more attacks like 911 under his leadership because this is over-promising...on and on.

[NV1962]

144. Kick for boredom

:kick:

[democratreformed]

149. Link to PBS article with debate-style format on SOA

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/july-dec99/sotamericas_9-21.html

[Hoppin_Mad]

151. And from an Army Major who TAUGHT there >

MAJORJOE BLAIR (RET.):" I have personal knowledge that the School of the Americas, while I was there for three years, taught two intelligence interrogation courses, which taught the U.S. Army position that it was appropriate to use physical abuse when interrogating anyone in their country, to also use false imprisonment, false arrest, and kidnapping of family members. "

[robbedvoter]

152. "Kill Harvard bc Enron executives were there? No, change curriculum

Add some ethics courses. Whic is what we did with the School of Americas - we added human rights courses" Wesley Clark

[maxanne]

153. amazing

the lengths that people will go to to dismiss and defend this.