NY Times: Tide of Second Thoughts Rises Among Democrats

[La_Serpiente]

Tide of Second Thoughts Rises Among Democrats

NEWTON, Iowa, Jan. 8 — Only a few weeks ago, Jenny Briggs, an Iowa State University graduate, was all set to enthusiastically support Howard Dean in the caucuses. But now, with the vote 11 days away, Ms. Briggs said she is having second thoughts as she watches Dr. Dean stumble through his difficult days of the presidential contest.

"I had listened to him on TV, and I thought he sounded pretty good," Ms. Briggs said, standing in the town square in Newton, Iowa. "It turned out he was too good to be true."

She said she grimaced when Dr. Dean, in what she described as an act of arrogance, declared at a debate in Des Moines on Sunday that he would balance the budget "in the sixth or seventh year of my administration," and then looked befuddled when his audience broke out laughing.

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Tide of Second Thoughts Rises Among Democrats

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This race is not even close to wrapped up.

[incapsulated]

1. Yeah, but..

Notice how pessimistic they are about the idea of beating Bush with any of the candidates.

I have to say I can't really blame them, I feel pretty pessimistic myself, right now, and it's interesting how it seems that's how a lot of democrats feel everywhere. :(

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClintonTyree]

14. Perhaps............

that's because he's only been a Democrat for a few months?

[Closer]

23. Caption this image Dean people.

[Snappy]

3. Perhaps

There is a slim chance that the Neocons will shoot themselves in the foot with a rocket propelled gernade. Hey, it could happen.

[bearfartinthewoods]

19. if you want to feel optomistic again

check out Edwards.. http://www.johnedwards2004.com/map
he has a positive message that just happens to have kick ass appeal to independents.

[maddezmom]

4. lots of folks in this article are undecided

lots of time to keep switching back and forth between candidates.

[La_Serpiente]

5. Some things to extrapolate out of the article

Indeed, several Democrats praised Mr. Edwards for largely avoiding the animosity, and said they would reward him with their votes.

Bingo. So far, he is one of the only Democrats that hasn't been seriously attacked by Dean. Sure, there was the disagreement over the confederate flag issue, but that was pretty much it.

And what does that mean? Well, he doesn't have arrows going through him like Gephardt, Kerry, Lieberman, some other candidates, and to a certain degree, Clark. Many people find his classy demeanor and charming attitude appealing and refreshing. Why are the other candidates trying to sound like Dr. Dean? There are different characteristics to being the anti-Dean, and one of them is sounding like Mr. Edwards (by the way, I don't think Clark sounds like Dr. Dean)

So Dean went after those that supported the war? Big deal. Only the people who responded and made blips in the media are the ones that suffered because the put themselves on the map. How many users at DU do you hear complaining about Mr. Edwards?

Edwards is being sorely underestimated in this race.

[maddezmom]

6. it will be interesting to see if Edwards makes some gains in IA

then NH. :)

[La_Serpiente]

7. maybe not in those two states

but South Carolina might do him justice.

[Bombtrack]

9. Hasn't been attacked by Dean?

I guess you don't count constantly lying and misrepresenting a person, attacking.

Dean has gone out of his way in recent WEEKS to treat Edwards with respect, which is a turnaround. This is most likely do his advisors correctly assessing that democrats as a whole are turned off by attacks on someone they consider excedingly nice and good, even if they don't plan on voting for him.

Also, Dean needs Edwards to siphon off votes from Clark in NH, SC, and OK.

[La_Serpiente]

10. do you know of any particular instances where

Dean has lied and misrepresented Edwards? Because I sure don't. Since Edwards is your candidate, you would probably know the instances when Dean attacked Edwards. What are they?

But overall, Edwards doesn't even come close to the shit that Gephardt, Kerry, and Lieberman have gotten.

[Bombtrack]

12. Edwards isn't my candidate

but saying that you are the only real democrat, or that you are the only one who talks about race to white audiences, when these things are false, I consider lying about the other candidates

[La_Serpiente]

15. sorry bout that,

I thought he was your candidate.

yes, and that statement was disconcerting.

[maddezmom]

13. not sure of the specifics

but on the NPR debate Dean mentioned writing a letter to Edwards apologizing for misrepresented a vote or something. Maybe another Edwards or Dean supporter have the inside info on this.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

31. Here's the apology for "I'm the only white candidate who speaks abt race

http://www.topdog04.com/000381.html

-snip-

During last night's Congressional Black Caucus Debate, Howard Dean said, "I'll tell you why I connect with African-American audiences. I'm the only white politician that ever talks about race in front of white audiences. Black people have heard lectures from white politicians for a long time. White folks need to talk to white people in America about race."

Senator John Edwards (D-NC) made the following statement today in response to Governor Howard Dean's statement at last night's debate that Dean is "the only white politician that ever talks about race in front of white audiences."

"Governor Dean's statement was divisive. And divisive is exactly what we're trying to overcome. His statement does a disservice to everyone he stood next to and all the people before us who have raised this issue over and over again in front of all audiences.

"Senator Lieberman marched with Martin Luther King. Senator Kerry talks about his experience in Vietnam. I grew up in the segregated South. Fighting for civil rights is part of who I am. I talk about it in front of every audience I'm with.

"Governor Dean was right about one thing - politicians should talk about civil rights wherever they go. In the future, I hope he leads by example instead of by attack."

[kerry-is-my-prez]

33. Apology for saying that Edwards avoided talking about his support of Iraq

http://us.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/26/dean.apology.ap/

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Howard Dean sent a handwritten letter to Democratic presidential primary rival John Edwards, apologizing for saying that Edwards avoided talking about his support of the Iraqi conflict before a largely anti-war audience. During a speech to California Democrats earlier this month, Dean criticized Edwards and Sen. John Kerry for backing the war. He said the two senators, who voted last fall for a congressional resolution authorizing force, did not stand by their positions when they addressed the same group.

But Edwards, who spoke before Dean addressed the California audience, had pledged support for disarming Iraq by force and was booed and jeered by many in the crowd. Dean said he had not heard Edwards' speech and was unaware of what the North Carolina senator had said when he criticized him.

-snip-

But Dean continued his criticism on Edwards on Monday. "It seems to me he has changed his position," he said, according to a report in the Des Moines Register.

-snip-

A spokesman for John Edwards says the senator has been "clear and consistent" on Iraq. Dean spokeswoman Sue Allen said Dean misrepresented Edwards' stance before the California Democrats, but he thought Edwards was inconsistent in other appearances. She added that Edwards appears to have smoothed out his message and is consistently pro-war.

[HFishbine]

20. Edwards has his drawbacks

You just haven't heard much about them because he hasn't been in the spotlight.

[arewethereyet]

32. care to offer any ? We already know hes a lawyer, anything else ?

n/t

[Bombtrack]

8. It's about F*in time

logic is starting to set in

[CWebster]

11. Don't think that the NYTimes doesn't have an agenda

and doesn't use it's influence to broadcast it.

What would be the point of feeding articles to suggest Dean supporters reconsidering if they weren't trying to shape perceptions? The paper did alot of going to bat for Kerry, but not once did you see reports of Kerry supporters abandoning him--although how could it be otherwise since he started out at the top and has been in a freefall for months. Today's front page presents Clark dressed down for his "conversations with Clark" campaign to target women voters not so impressed with his shiny medals. I guess they picked up a new pony to hedge their bets on. The NYTimes might be better than the rest but they are still the plutocratic paper of choice that always supports the establishment before it reports the truth.

[Iverson]

27. Bingo

It's just like any use of the repentant ex-(fill in the blank).

Where that puff piece went, there could have been serious coverage of an issue.

[stickdog]

16. The nomination is now Kerry's to lose. (nt)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

17. Good

very good.

[mouse7]

18. "in the sixth or seventh year" was a Dean DOH! moment

They've happened to all the candidates.

Kerry saying he would not appoint John Ashcroft as his Att'y General. Kucinich and his pie chart at the radio debate. Gephardt saying he would use executive order to reverse court decisions. Clark cussing live on CSPAN.

20 hour days, 7 days a week for more than a year are going to catch up to people.

[Sophree]

36. I don't know

That was pretty bad. "6th or 7th year." Very bad on so many levels.

[KaraokeKarlton]

21. Nothing wrong with confidence

And Dean has that in spades. He's confident he'll beat Bush, confident he'll be re-elected and confident he can balance the budget in the 6th or 7th year. Dean knows more about balancing budgets than any of the other candidates (including Bush) because he balanced 11 in a row despite the fact that Vermont is NOT required by law to balance their budget. That shows just how fiscally responsible Dean is, and Lord knows we need more of that in this country's leadership!

Go Dean!

[gulliver]

22. Tide of first thoughts.

For most, I'll bet this is their first time thinking about the candidates. The frontrunner status is an artificial creation of the media at the moment. It's all fluid.

[cryofan]

24. what a bunch of idiot voters they are quoting in this article

...too f*ckin' sh*t-stoopid to get online and find out what is really going on....
Didja getta load of their comments?

[DemBones DemBones]

28. That's not a productive way to talk

about other Americans, particularly not about other Democrats. You read an awful lot into the one line comments the paper printed, assuming that those who made them are idiots, "too f*ckin' sh*t-stoopid to get online and find out what is really going on..."

Perhaps you've never been interviewed by a newspaper and don't realize that you don't get to approve what they choose to print from your comments.

Perhaps you don't realize that not everyone has a computer and that among those who do, many distrust the internet,

Perhaps you don't realize that not everyone thinks exactly like you.

Whatever it is, I think your comments are divisive and unnecessary.

[Mairead]

25. If true, it's not beforetime.

All anyone has to do is stop listening to his handwaving speeches and go look at his actual Bush-Lite, status-quo policies.

It's a bit like not watching the telly for awhile until one's brain starts up again. Suddenly the world looks different.

[DemBones DemBones]

26. Did anyone else watch the speeches at the

Linn County Democratic Dinner? They were on C-SPAN last night and will be replayed today at least once.

The only Dems who spoke were Edwards, Kerry, Kucinich, and Dean, and they spoke in that order. I would rank their speeches in that order as well. Edwards gave a real campaign speech, just first-rate. He pretty well hit all the issues, too. Kerry was a close second in passion, also hitting the issues. My candidate, Kucinich, warmed up during his speech but the less passionate beginning lost points for him on this speech (not that I'm switching candidates, though, because he's best on the issues, and he did address them.) Dean was a disappointment. It's no secret that I don't like Dean on issues and integrity, but I was prepared to be impressed by his speech and surprised that it was so blah. Dean supporters at DU have often exhorted others to hear him speak, saying we'd understand his appeal if we heard him speak. Well, I heard him speak live, I heard his supporters respond, but I truly don't understand the appeal. Perhaps it was a bad night for him.

I'm listening to the speeches again on TiVo to see if I have any different feelings about them the second time. Edwards is speaking now and just did an imitation of a lobbyist sidling up to him and saying, "You going to give us some help on this bill? And -- wink, wink -- we'll see you at the fundraiser tonight," and then said this about lobbyists: "We ought to cut these people off. I mean, cut them off at the knees! That's a paraphrase, not direct transcription, but the flavor is Edwards: kind of down home humor, animated, lots of gestures (Hey, we're Southern, we talk with our hands! ), lots of we-can-do-this rhetoric. "You give me a shot at George W. Bush and I'll give you the White House." And then he brings up his the Senate rankings this week that showed him NUMBER ONE in standing up to George W. Bush.

Lots of applause throughout, and this line got a big hand: "If you're looking at the candidate who can do the best job of sniping at the other candidates, that's not me."

I'm sure the editors of the "Des Moines Register" were pleased by this speech last night, with their endorsement of Edwards coming out today.

[stickdog]

29. NY Times: "Here's Some Anecdotal Evidence That Supports Our

View That Howard Dean is a Threat to the Status Quo."

Does anyone else remember the New Whore Time's coverage leading up to and during the Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL)?

I do.

[Cheswick2.0]

30. a tide of one or two people, I'm shaking in my boots

:eyes:

[arewethereyet]

34. he had a pretty tepid resonse at the Lin Party dinner last night

considering he's the walk away front runner and all. And despite the obvious bias of the CSPAN director's camera management.

[adadem]

35. The nomination is now Dean's to lose n/t