I think the election has separated me and my sister for good . . .

[fugue]

I didn't ask her to stump for Kerry. I asked her to vote for him. She won't vote. She said if she did vote, she'd vote for Nader.

Not that she gives any reasons, of course. The only thing she's ever said is that they're all the same, and I pointed out that this "even shade of gray" worldview was just as simplistic as the black-and-white worldview she justly derides. When I pointed out that voting for Nader would only strengthen Bush and asked how much more did Bush have to do to prove that he was evil than lie to start a war, she said she wanted out of the conversation. She said I was trying to get her to do what I wanted her to do (rather than speak to the issues I was raising) and said she'd talk to me after the election.

I told her my opinion of her refusing to do the tiniest thing to head off catastrophe wasn't going to improve after the election.

I know she's my sister, but . . . how can you sit by and watch fascism gathering? How could I stand by and not urge her to take a tiny, basic action?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. It's tough

It seems mostly like your sister wants to keep the blinders on. She doesn't understand politics and doesn't seem to want to.

[LoZoccolo]

2. What state does she live in?

It might not matter.

[LittleClarkie]

43. Sounds like she's living in a state of denial

Sorry. Had to. It beckoned.

[fugue]

45. ^_^ It did.

[LoZoccolo]

47. This is a serious question.

If she's in Utah or Wyoming, just let it go. It's really not worth it.

[fugue]

54. Sorry, said below . . .

I answered it below, and I thought you saw it. We're in NYS.

[IdaBriggs]

3. Has she seen Farheinheit 9/11? Perhaps it will help convince her. nt

[whistle]

4. Ohoo, "for good" is an awfully long time and you still have...

...35 days left to show your tolerance and patience and to bring out the truth. Besides, if she really plans to vote for Nader, then it is best that she stays away. Who knows, she could come around and make the right choice. Regardless, after the election, she may join you in the revolution.

[Spinzonner]

5. Maybe she's right

have you really examined your own motives. And what is your mutual history in situations like this ?

In any case, is it really worth poisoning your relationship with your sister over - especially since she's not voting against your POV ?

Get some perspective.

[tjwash]

6. Have you explained to her that...

...four more years of Bush means that he will stack the Supreme Court with conservative justices whose rulings will affect us for decades? That means we get the consequences for years after he his gone. Anyone that calls themselves a Liberal should be disgusted at the B* cartel having that kind of power.

[goddess40]

7. It could be worse; my sister is voting for bush!

She's a born again nut job without a pot to piss in, up to her eyes in debt because she has 4 kids (1 with a chronic illness)at home and no health insurance. Her hubby's job keeps getting outsourced.
Now she's homeschooling because they can't afford the local "Christian" school and the public school is evil.

[Rambis]

8. I wish I could bury my head in the sand

I am tired as hell of trying to shed some light on the bush roaches. I have exhausted my editorial limit in our newspapers, I have given money to the local campaigns until it hurts but I am still frustrated as hell. My last editorial was a bush flip flop list that was 16 pages long and I had to cut it down considerably in or to make it fit the word limit criteria. I hope it changes the mind of one voter. Tired but not beaten down yet!

[fugue]

9. We're in NYS

I suppose it probably won't matter, but yee gads, we've got to get people willing to protest when they steal the vote and my sister cannot even be persuaded that she should cast one against Bush? Another of her "arguments": "I promised myself I would never cast a negative vote, and voting for Kerry would be a negative vote." Even assuming it would have to be a negative vote, her promise to herself comes before all the horrendous suffering Bush will cause if he gets another term? How is "Principles before people" any better than "Profits before people"?

She previews movies for me, ones that might possibly be too disturbing for me, and with borderline ones, she does that and then watches them with me, saying "OK, don't look until I tell you . . . OK, it's OK now." She refused to even preview F911. She won't watch "propaganda." I think she's afraid of being proved wrong. In her entire life, I don't remember her once admitting she was wrong. I had to stop reading her fiction because even constructive suggestions she took as attacks. (She critiques my writing all the time, and I think it's better for it, but there's no way to reciprocate.)

Sigh. I have Asperger's syndrome; I don't have much in the way of friends. I hate losing her, but . . . I don't see how I could do this differently and live with myself.

[Kaysera]

22. Understand that your sister sees some things differently than you.

That is her right (and her destiny) as an independent person.

She doesn't have to see everything (or anything ... for that matter) ... the way that you do.

I think that her response to you is a reasonable one ... you currently have differences in political thought ... so agree with her to wait out the election and then renew your fellowship.

It is clear that she doesn't wish to lose the connection the two of you have. That is a sign of her love for you.

OTOH, ... she has the right to make her own life choices.

Accept her as she is ... as she has certainly accepted you.

[LiberalEconomist]

39. To Hell With That

My sister married some mullet-head highschool drop-out who belongs to the cult of Bush. She now has joined the cult. I told her straight up that my sister no longer exists. This election is more important than "blood." This election is about the future of the human race itself. So, when I hear or read some jerkoff yapping about "we should let Bush win so everything can go to hell," I just want to wring their neck.

[Kaysera]

51. I certainly respect your right to feel as you do ... n/t

[goddess40]

58. My son's have NLD, one is borderline aspergers

At least she is voting for Nader and has a heart, she'll come around, eventually. If she was voting for bush I wouldn't give you much of a chance of getting through this. To vote for bush means you have no compassion for others.
Since your in NY her vote won't really change things.

My subject line is related to the previous posts last line. My son's therapist said the scuttle butt on NLD is that it is a form of aspergers, I'm hoping that will keep my boys out of the draft.

NLD = Nonverbal Learning Disorder

[fugue]

61. The state of NY considers me officially disabled

So it might well keep them out.

Yeah, I read up on the autistic spectrum disorders and heard about NLD then. Whether it's a form of Asperger's or not, it's definitely in the autistic spectrum. It would seem a reasonable argument to me--can't have someone in the military if they're going to have trouble interpreting what people say to them--but then I'm biased. I don't think they should be drafting anyone. ^_^

[RubyDuby in GA]

10. Take it back even further

Tell her regardless of who she votes for, that she simply must vote. It is her civic duty.

If she doesn't, it's a slap in the face to the countless women who fought, marched, starved, went to jail and sometimes died to earn her that right (and privilege).

Sorry, but women who don't vote make me sick.

[gratuitous]

11. No

She'll still be your sister next year and five years from now, and twenty years from now when George W. Bush is merely a painful, hazy memory.

Her disenchantment with politics and the process is a direct result of a 30 year campaign by the Republicans. It's unfortunate that they have scored a hit in your family, but they've been working hard for years, spending millions and millions of dollars to persuade people (like your sister) that politics is too confusing, too corrupt, too dirty, too distant, for them to bother with.

And when your sister and others like her sit out another election because the Republicans have discouraged and disillusioned her, they will then swoop in and steal what little she has left.

You're her only hope. Register two voters to offset her apathy. She can be redeemed, and we can get our country back from the greedy bastards who've stolen it. But we're going to have to rip it out of their grasping blood-stained hands.

[Clinton Crusader]

12. BIG trouble with me and my dad

Usually he stays quiet, but I was over there Sunday with a KE04 shirt on and he took that opportunity to let me have it. He listens to all the right wing a-holes on the radio, adores O'Really, blah blah, so he sounded like an automoton repeating all their crap about flip flops, Kerry doesnt know WTF he's doing on and on and on, till we were yelling. There is NO WAY to get through to him, he will NOT watch F9/11, HATES Moore, thinks he's unpatriotic and fascist pig, if Smirk made chimp noises throughout the debate, he'd STILL say he was better. He's compl. brainwashed. It's extremely frustrating because when I try to explain, point things out, he just talks louder. He's turned into a typical repug.
:kick:

[CrispyQ]

13. There's a definite rift between me & my mother . . .

She still thinks Saddam was involved with 9/11 & that there are WMD. STILL!! Anytime I try to point out the truth to her she covers her ears & starts saying, "Spin, spin, spin." She's an avid faux news watcher & loves Rush, Hannity & most of all O'Reilly, and she tells me she can't believe how mean & hateful the left is. Gasp!

All this from a woman who is on medicare & social security. I asked her if she was so anti-dem, perhaps she should give that money back - "After all, it was dems who implemented these programs that help you," I said. "That doesn't matter. They aren't helping me now." "But they are helping you now!!! Every month when you get a check, the dems are helping you. Don't you get it?" Evidently not.

She somewhat jokingly said she couldn't believe what kind of thing she had raised - meaning me. Ouch! That one actually hurt.

I'll give it some time after the election, but I don't know if things will ever be the same between us. Good luck with your sister. I hope things improve.

[Blue Wally]

38. You hit the nail on the head......

The big Democratic programs (social security, medicare, civil rights, unemployment, etc) have all been enacted and are engraved so deep in the national psyche that even the most conservative Republican would not dream of trying to take them down. They may want to tinker around the edges, but they won't repeal them.

These battles having been won, we are now fighting against cultural and security issues where we have not established moral authority in the eyes of Joe and Sally Sixpack.

John Kerry has not fleshed out one single Democratic program except with the most general of platitudes.

We need outr own specific "constract with America" to show where we stand!

[demnan]

14. I think it's strange but true that sometimes

a person will listen more objectively to the opinions of someone whom they're not close to. If someone else could talk to one's relatives, I think they would do so with a lot less emotionalism and a lot more conviction. That's why I'm phone canvassing. I think this is a good role for anyone who is frustrated trying to convince close friends and relatives.

[fugue]

18. I can't canvass

I've Asperger's syndrome. I can't interact in real time, not coherently anyway.

That's one of my problems with my sister: she insists on having debates in person (when she knows we're on uneven footing). Whenever I try to move it to e-mail, she just tries to shut down the conversation.

[Kaysera]

28. You've indicated that your sister does a lot for you ...

... (screens movies, etc.)

Perhaps honoring her decision is something that you can do for her.

[fugue]

40. I've tried the no-politics route

We get together at least once a week, and every time she gets in some dig about politics. She knows I can't function at her speed in a face-to-face debate, so she always wins those by default.

This week it was about how the corporations in Germany are trying to cut back social benefits or outsource the jobs. "You can't blame the corporations. They exist to make a profit." If it had been e-mail I would've been able to gather my thoughts to point out that perhaps they should consider a few things besides short-term profits (like who will buy their products if no one has jobs or they've spent all their money on the benefits they used to get). The week before it was how she read an article that says neither candidate's plan for Social Security will work. Every week it's something. But if I try to discuss by e-mail, then it's all about how I'm not respecting her viewpoint.

[Kaysera]

53. It's a tense time right now ...

... hopefully things will mellow a bit after the election.

[seabeyond]

15. in laws are comin thurs. told hubby last night

it would behove him, to let the parents know, not a word of bush not a word of repug.............

i will simply go for the jugular.

think tht one is clear. lol lol. i have almost quietly allowed them to tell me what to say for years............they had better heed my advice.

my father, i yelled last nite to husband, this man, he taught me integrity, responsibility taking ownership. i know better. just disgusted

[kaitykaity]

16. Leave her alone.

Sorry, I know this is important to you, but shouldn't the
relationship be more important?

Agree to disagree and don't talk about it anymore. You have
to respect her right to her "stoopid" opinion, and if you love
her, you have to accept that.

Call politics a "no-go zone" and give it a rest already.
Let her be.

[ArkDem]

17. It's always a good idea to choose politics over family.

[fugue]

19. Would you have said the same in Germany, 1933?

I seriously think that's where we are.

On edit: I'm not being snide here. I'm asking an honest question. If you believed we were in the same amount of danger that I believe we are, would your opinion change? Or at least, do you think it would?

[ArkDem]

34. Yes. It is a universal truth.

[RubyDuby in GA]

20. Always. Just ask Sadie Fields, Pres. of GA Christian Coalition

POLITICAL INSIDER: Issue divides family of gay marriage foe
Tom Baxter and Jim Galloway - Staff
Monday, September 20, 2004

For months, opponents of Georgia's gay marriage vote have conducted a secret lobbying effort aimed at bringing a single person into the fray. And they have failed.

Their object has been Tess Fields, 35, of Oregon, the lesbian daughter of Sadie Fields, president of the Christian Coalition of Georgia and principal leader in the effort to incorporate the gay marriage ban into the state constitution.

http://www.ajc.com/hp/content/auto/epaper/editions/yesterday/metro_14e46756930c60c20060.html

[AVID]

21. Same here - family shunning me

I have been going through a tough time at work and actually resigned form my job two months ago in order to relax and keep from having a nervous breakdown. My wife and kids are happy to see me feeling better and not traveling so much.

During May and June, a time of extensive travel, depression, and stress, I was talking to my mother once a week (she is in Georgia - I'm in Montana) keeping her up to date on my whereabouts, state of mind, and job status. After weeks of discussion with my wife, doctor, and kids, I resigned and took a needed vacation. When I told my mother, she was happy for me. However, the next time we spoke, she brought up a "crazy liberal" neighbor who had come by the house to get out the vote. That shocked me- she had not been politically active before and I had never heard her say those words.

I found out she and my brothers family had switched churches about six months ago - She had raised me catholic, but now they had been saved and recruited into a Church of Christ in their town.

I told her that I was voting for Kerry and I was sure she was going to, too. Then she dropped the "flip-flopper" message and I knew it was over.

I insisted that she read up on Kerry and not just go by what she hears at church and she got quiet.

We haven't talked since I told he I resigned on July 29th. I leave her messages, but she doesn't return my call.

[krkaufman]

67. Wow, that's just sad. Sorry to hear the Great Uniter has divided ...

... your family.

Try not to burn any bridges, though. My brother is of the opinion that in 10 or so years you'll have a hard time finding anyone who admits that they ever voted for Bush.

Reality's a tough thing to ignore indefinitely.

[crispini]

23. Holy cr*p!

I'm sorry. That's all I can say. That's a tough boat to be in. Every time I hear something like this I am soooooo happy that my parents & brother, although not politically involved, are aware enough that they will be voting D. I even made sure my father got an absentee ballot. That's four for us!

[Heath.Hunnicutt]

24. She's younger than you, right?

Be understanding. People make mistakes. Sometimes people are playing with handguns and they accidentally go off, killing someone. Sometimes young people are playing with votes, and don't realize what voting for Nader means.

She is your sister, try to understand her.

[fugue]

27. She's 35

That makes her younger than me (39), but I wouldn't call her young.

[Heath.Hunnicutt]

30. Wow. Yes, too old to believe in Santa Claus. nt

[StopThief]

25. That's rediculous.

To let politics end a lifelong family relationship because she won't vote the way you want is incredibly shortsighted. Your passion is great, but do what you can with people and let it go.

[wadestock]

26. Good Work....it shows you're serious

After I found out my sister in law was voting for Bush I just told her on the phone recently she wasn't invited over for Thanksgiving. My wife said...oh dear...you're kidding right?

Nope.

Live is short. I'm not wasting my time hanging with schit heads anymore.

[fugue]

29. Perhaps I should've said when I started this thread

That responses should either be nonsarcastic or have <sarcasm>/</sarcasm> brackets around them.

I have Asperger's syndrome. It's hard for me to tell the difference. Sometimes I can, but with some of these posts, I'm not sure.

[blue neen]

31. I am sorry that you and your sister can't see eye to eye on this.

It's difficult when you are feeling strongly about Bush's incompetence and can't understand when someone so close to you can't see the same things.

You can't control what your sister thinks, and she can't control what you think! I think you will probably have to leave it at that for the sake of your relationship.

Good luck!

[HFishbine]

32. You know what I'd tell her?

I've lost patience with people who still have this attitude at this stage. I'd tell her:

"Sis, I love you and that's not going to change, but just as I'd speak up if you were making a mistake in any other area of your life, I'm speaking up now. What you are doing is childish. The leaders of this country crossed the ocean and started two wars in your name. They have saddled this country with policies that will harm generations to come and if you don't stand up to them, you might as well be helping them.

You are being extremely selfish to say that you will not lift a finger (literally) to fire the people responsible for making YOUR country an international pariah and purveyor of death and destruction. Things are quite black and white in this election. Either you repudiate the past four years, or you are complicit in their approval through your intended inaction. Are you going to be a grown-up and actually take some responsibility for the way the world is or are you going to be an ineffective whining child content to let evil rule by default?

[Kaysera]

33. fugue has indicated that his sister is very helpful to him ...

I don't think that calling her a 'ineffective whining child' is going to achieve any positive results.

She is, obviously not ineffective or uncaring ... because she is there for fugue.

We can't make people be (or think) the way we want them to.

fugue's sister is free to make her own choices.

[HFishbine]

35. I think it is quite clear

that the childish references are to her particular refusal to vote. It doesn't imply that as a person she is innefective or uncaring, but when it comes to participating in democracy, she most certainly is.

[fugue]

44. Actually I'm one of the small number of autistic females ^_^

But 80% of all autistics are male, so it was a very reasonable assumption.

[Kaysera]

50. Sorry ... my bad. n/t

[MsTryska]

36. Really tho....

you can't control your sister one way or the other. All you should have asked your sister to do is vote. it's her civic duty to vote for who she thinks it's best.


you can influence her decision, but you can't make the decision for her. and you can't be mad at her, for not seeing things oyur way either.


as much as I want a kerry-Edwards victory, I have to trust in the system (yes i know i'm being pretty pollyana about the system right now) and trust that your fellow americans are as sick of things as you are.

[fugue]

37. Well, if she wants to vote for Nader, obviously she can

I didn't tell her to only register if she was going to vote Kerry. I just argued that she should register and shouldn't vote Nader.

[Blue Wally]

41. If she registers

If she registers and votes for Nader, that is all the same with not voting at all. Quit bugging her. Family is family. This election wwill be over in a matter of weeks. Don't burn any permanent bridges because of it. I lost a few friends in high school by being too strident for Adlai Stevenson in 1956. They felt I has pushing so hard it made them uncomfortable.

[fugue]

42. Well, I e-mailed her . . .

I told her I'd drop the politics if she would, stating specifically that there were to be no little digs when we're together face-to-face and she knows I can't compete (see my post "40. I've tried the no-politics route," above).

I imagine she's got me kill-filed until Nov. 3. That would be like her.

Thanks for the input, everyone. I do very much appreciate it.

[cheshire]

46. She needs you to let her pick, If she's wrong she'll learn. She is family

and that is more important. This is probably no about politics but something in your past.

[ismnotwasm]

48. Bless you for trying

I have a sister who will make blanket negative statements about a race--say East Indians, has told me that we should kill all Iraqi's before they kill us,and who doesn't read, but gets her information off the radio or news. She likes Kerry when the media (rare I know) has put a good spin on him, or a bad spin on the war. She is all over the map politically, can't make up her mind evidently. I listen, and try as much as I can, and try to provide information that she can understand in her terms. Needless to say, we don't talk much, and politics is just a part of it. I live by example, I stay clear about my beliefs and opinions, and that seems more effective than arguing. Now my right wing Father, we throw DOWN--get into full on shouting matches, 'cause that's the language HE understands. Everybody is different. I'm glad you're on our team!

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

49. I have decided not to say anything more

to the family members who are voting for Bush. My husband, I and BIL have tried to argue our points, but they refuse to listen. They don't have any reason or logic to give, but they don't care.

We have never even been the ones to bring the subject up, they always used to bring it up with stupid trivial "jokes" about Democrats in a taunting, mean way. Now they are silent around us. I suspect they might be feeling confused and guilty, but they will vote for Bush.

If they bring it up, I'm just going to say, "Follow your own conscience and I will follow mine." and leave it at that. I'm not going to joke about it anymore with them, that's for sure. I agree with you they are probably voting for fascism and disaster will follow, but people in this country have a right to their own beliefs and opinions, even if they believe in hate-mongering.

I don't respect what they are doing and they certainly show no respect for Democrats, so I'm through discussing it. The way the relationship has changed is - we have lost respect for them and they can never get back on their moral high horses with us because they have shown how hypocritical and brainwashed they are, but they have chosen to be brainwashed and that is on their conscience, not mine.

We can still interact with them as people and human beings and discuss everything else, but in the area of morals and racism and war and such subjects, I have just pity for them.

Maybe you could say like, "Let's not discuss politics anymore, follow your conscience and seek out the truth for yourself." It's her right and responsibility to do that and if she doesn't, it's not your fault.

Adding on edit: Not that I'm such a great person either, so I have decided to focus more on working on improving myself and not worrying so much what other people do.

[Nashyra]

55. I am lucky most of my family are voting Kerry

The ones who are not are the ones that elegible sons and daughters for the draft. I have sent them the info on the various draft scenarios pending stating that "if they can risk their children for a few bucks in tax savings" I don't want to hear a peep if it comes to them being drafted. Most are in the medical field. My brother keeps trying the "they are the same" route telling me not to get so upset. I have told all of them if they vote for * they can rent their own damn house for their vacations and skiing because they won't be welcome here. I'll visit with them, love them but they can spend their tax savings on a rental. We live in Lake Tahoe and are swarmed in the winter by relatives. I have a 19 year old son and if they want to put him at risk, screw them!!!!!! My mom and dad agree with me and are 100% behind me. My dad told my brother that if he votes * that he will call his loan, says he'll need the extra income. It's in the 6 figures, my brother is probably going to vote for Kerry, my son is his God Son and he helped raise him when I got divorced and when his dad died. He won't put him at risk. He likes to argue with me.

[GreenPartyVoter]

52. Invite her to your "Kerry won" bash and make up with her then.

[forgethell]

56. My son, brother, and mother-in-law

are all voting differently from me. You can't let politics interfere with your personal relationships (if it's a real relationship, I don't count acquaintances. You will regret it forever if you do. I've been there.

[nomatrix]

57. I hope you will be able to be O.K. with the rules you've laid out.

I can relate to your problem.

If they are all the same, as she says,

Does she feel the division in this country?

Clearly, Nader is against outsourcing, but

Is she aware of the debt created by this administration and
who we are in debt to?
As long as other nations like Japan, China, Saudi, whoever hold the notes on the U.S. we will have to outsource to them or else they can demand payment.

Does she have children? The decision she makes today, will affect them.

Currently on HBO is a documentary called Chernobyl Heart. Understanding the condition to the heart of children born right after the Chernobyl disaster, is part of the story. Sadly, most of these children are turned away at the hospitals. The group presenting the documentary raises funds for the surgery performed by American doctors and their teams, who are donating their services. They do show many children disfigured by mutating genes. It is painful to watch. Beyond that.....
It is a sad statement about the country formerly known as the Soviet Union.
Explaining to her the similarity we share with the former superpower, spending money we/they don't have on military build up. Going into Afghanistan and going broke. Poor leadership. Shoddy workmanship. No accountability. No respect for the people suffering. Poverty everywhere. I'm sure there are the rich, but this is a story of victims. Little to no medical care. Doctors make $100 a month. Too bad for the children, no hope.
There are differences yes. They aren't/weren't being overrun with illegal immigration. France has that problem.

If we have 4 more years of the same disastrous policies, we are not going to recognize this as the United States.
We need to have real changes. Ralph is not real. A vote for non candidate.

This is what I did with my brother. I'm sorry he doesn't see it. But between now and election day, maybe he will. He does have grown children. You are doing your best. This maybe one that you will have to let go.

[fugue]

59. Well, I talked to my therapist about it . . .

She said that the "witness" child (my sister) is often more deeply traumatized than the abused child (me). (It was all psychological abuse, but my mother was a master of the art. My therapist called her "deeply twisted" today.) The witness always wonders if they will be able to avoid the abuse, if they can take it if they can't, and what abuse is going on that they're not seeing. The The witness almost always denies the abuse's existence in some fashion, sees any criticism as a personal threat ("This is the start of the abuse!"), and tends to make apologies for sadistic personalities, all to protect themselves from realizing they were ever under threat.

Hence just as I experience Bush as particularly sinister because of his sadism, my sister must make excuses for him because of his sadism. To her, I must be afraid of him for unreal reasons, and any facts to the contrary are not evidence but attacks on her personally. Just as our mother "did the best she could" and I shouldn't "take what she did personally."

My therapist says I have every right to take what my mother did personally, but I shouldn't take my sister so. She's not seeing me and she's not gonna. My therapist says I should look at my relationship with my sister the way I do with my animals: figure out how the critter sees the world and go with it rather than against it. My sister can't see even constructive criticism as anything but a threat, anymore than my rabbits could understand that tag is not always deadly serious when "It" is a member of a predatory species (that is, me).

So I'm gonna spend the next month trying to stop being annoyed by this worldview and trying to figure out ways to work with it (rather than screaming "The unexamined life isn't worth living!" which is what I want to do). It's frustrating: my sister is very intelligent and creative; she could do so much if she were willing to ever admit she's less than perfect.

I wonder how many people are out there voting for Bush (or against him ^_^) because of childhood trauma. . . .

[krkaufman]

64. Wow. That was revealing. Thanks for sharing.

I'd go with your therapist's suggestion, and not let this issue break your relationship w/ your sis.

However... though it may not be of any use you *might* have some anonymous source mail your sister materials from a few of these sites...

StopNader.com

United Progressives for Victory

The Unity Campaign

TheNaderFactor.com

Damned Big Difference

Greens for Kerry

Nader Watch

Repentant Nader Voter

SayNoToNader.com

Ralph Nader's Skeleton Closet
(from RealChange.org)

Nader2004.org

... copied from the NotNader.com website.

Or maybe just have Michael Moore of Bill Maher call your her, to see what they can do. Would mailing her a DVD of Bill Maher and Michael Moore on their knees begging Nader not to run do any good?

[fugue]

65. I figured after all that, I should do some explaining. . . .

It turns out whoever said it had to do with our history and not politics was right. At least in my sister's case, anyway. Well, I guess in mine, too: I can't not throw truth in the face of those in power. The more desperately anyone tries to deny harsh truths, the more I insist upon them. (Replaying both my confrontations with my mother and with the "adults I trusted" who refused to believe what I told them. Gee, do any of us stop reliving our childhoods, hoping to get it right this time?)

I doubt showing her Maher and Moore would do any good. They're "propagandists." Sigh.

I'll see if I can persuade our one common friend to forward those cites to her in a couple days; I wish it could be a little longer, but the deadline for registration looms. Our friend's a passionate Dem (out stumping for Kerry in NC), and he might be able to get her to listen. It's a long shot, but well, gotta take 'em, right? She tends to consider him somewhat goofy, but if that makes it harder for her to take his arguments seriously, at least it might also make him less threatening.

The truth is that Bush would be a disaster for her, too. She's an unmarried woman. She's an agnostic. She is an avid reader of texts from many cultures (she has read the Qu'ran, for instance). I don't think she realizes how big an impact Bush can and will have on her life if he gets any more time in power.

Thanks much for the links!

[Barney Rocks]

60. Sometimes we can't make

everyone see eye to eye with us, especially on politics. I know several people who are going to support Nader--and it doesn't really bother me. If Nader were not in the race--they would not be voting for Kerry. I know that we feel these are Democratic voters and that they belong to us--some of them do--but some of them don't. If you can't bring a person over to Kerry--don't sweat it--move on to someone else who you can influence. My theory is that I do not waste a lot of time on the ones who are hardcore. I get much better results if I try to move on to someone who actually is persuadable. If your sister is not a potential Kerry voter--I would say--just leave her alone and look for people who may be persuaded to vote for Kerry. Sure, we will lose her vote--but you may be able to get many more votes for Kerry if you work on other people instead of her.

[acmavm]

62. My mother, who has gotten so stupid (I cannot find another word to

describe it) is supporting bush*. This is a woman who is 75 years old, collects social security (not much but she still collects), is on Medicare, and lives in a subsidized old croak's highrise.

She absolutely refuses to discuss the issue. But I swear very, very soon I am going to just plain flat out and tell her that she has no right sitting there being subsidized by the government on the one hand and voting for a sticky fingers chicken shit little pointy ear squinty eyed crook who wants to steal the money, MY MONEY, that they've taken out of every pay check that I've earned for decades. I've had to work hard for that money and I've had to put up with a lot of shit and do a lot of crap that I didn't want to do, just to have the government get its mitts on it before I even see my paycheck.

The day is coming, and it's not far off. How dare she vote for someone who wants to bankrupt every social program enacted over the years, screw up the schools, put my children and grandchildren in massive debt, and then let them suit 'em up to go fight for oil.

BULLSHIT.

[K. F. Gibbons]

63. SHOW HER PICTURES OF DEAD IRAQI CHILDREN

[fugue]

66. Hmm. . . .

Well, certainly she owes it to them to take a look before she decides to look away permanently.

I'm just worried that it would be so traumatic that she would go even deeper into "See No Evil" mode. She refused to sign petitions or right our representatives in DC during the build-up to the Iraq invasion. Looking at the pictures might force her to confront her responsibility in standing by and saying nothing to stop the carnage, and that would be a huge threat to her "I'm never wrong" worldview.

There's a mutual friend of ours that I'm going to pull into this if I can. I'll float this idea past him and see what he thinks. He's a better judge of this sort of thing than I am.

Thanks for the suggestion! I honestly wouldn't've thought of it. (I find the thought of dead Iraqi children so traumatic that I can't look at them. I've avoided the pictures. I just keep trying to make it stop instead. ^_^;;;;)

[K. F. Gibbons]

68. Good Luck!