The best thing for renewable energy? $4.50 a gallon.

[loveable liberal]

Want to see fewer gas guzzling suv's on the road? Want to see less roads for that matter. I hope the Saudi's ratchet up the prices even more. Then finally we might see some action with ethanol or electric cars. And it would be about friggen time.

Bring it ON!!!

[camitche]

1. Damn Right.

You want to see everybody getting interested in and supporting public transportation. Push up those prices.

Although, first we'll rape Alaska and invade Venezuela (been looking pretty liberal lately anyway) to secure more oil for ourselves.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

2. Or even better, mass transit

Minneapolis is behind Dallas, for heaven's sake.

My dream transit setup would be

Extension of the current light rail line north to the Coon Rapids area
Building of the downtown to downtown light rail line, eventually extending it from Wayzata to Stillwater
Building a circular line that connects the old downtowns or new town centers of all the first-ring suburbs
Expand bus service so that it runs at minimum every 15 minutes on all arterials, seven days a week.
Create bike lanes on streets that parallel major automotive thoroughfares.

[cornermouse]

3. That will sink what's left of the economy.

You better hope it doesn't happen. I think it'll have a domino effect. Farmers won't be able to afford to plant or cultivate crops, so there will be less food available or the genetically modified food thing will be forced through Congress and the courts. Getting it to market with gasoline double the current outrageous price will probably just about double your grocery bill. As we found out last time, plastic is an oil product. All that plastic wrap and all those plastic bags are going to raise the prices.

Now. Do you think your salary is going to double? If you do...
Bring it ON!!!

[buckup]

4. Ahem....

Want to see the middle and lower class get squeezed even more? Up the prices.

Let's face it: Californians will not give up their cars. Not because we're attached to individuality, or any crap like that, but simply because the LA and OC mass transit system is so weak. You can't take a bus 30 miles to work. LA is too spread out for mass transit. And to give us an entirely new and thorough transit system that could take you almost anywhere in the southland would require millions... nay, billions of dollars to build.

So, no mass transit for LA... now.... if you up gas prices.... who's going to get screwed? The lower and middle class, who are still driving around in their Hondas from the 80s and their Camrys from the 90s... we're going to get screwed. The rich people are going to have their Priuses and their other hybrids.

No, no. high prices is not the answer. It's a symptom of a bigger problem.

[cornermouse]

5. Unless you're in a big city, there is no such thing as

mass transit anywhere.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

7. When I was in L.A., I was surprised at how easy it was to get

around on transit. L.A. actually has better transit than Minneapolis. A transit activist who lives there told me that the main obstacle to transit use was not inconvenience so much as white people not being willing to ride with dark-skinned people. Indeed, when I rode around, I was often the only white person on the bus. But everyone treated me just fine.

And if people choose to live 30 miles from their jobs, that's their problem. Yeah, yeah, I know, you can't afford to buy a house closer than Needles, but the expenses of driving 60 miles a day (maybe with more than one car) somehow never enter into the equation, not to mention the exhaustion that comes from driving 60 miles a day in heavy traffic.

Honestly, sometimes people act as if God laid American cities out in one-acre lots and strip malls. This was all done by human beings in the last 50 years and it can be undone.

All we need is to stop spending money on wars and start spending it on the infrastructure that will make oil wars unncessary.

There's something about cars that causes Americans to lose IQ points. Or maybe it's just a failure of imagination.

Humanity has lived without cars, plastic wrap, and imported food before.

The fact is that we ARE running out of accessible oil, and China is taking an increasing share. Whether you like it or not, oil WILL become expensive, and we can either pretend it's not going to happen because we don't like the prospects or we can prepare for that eventuality now. Unfortunately, the Bushies are doing the former.

[cornermouse]

8. Yep.

Let's just pile everyone into the cities. Ain't nothin worthwhile out in the country anyway, is there? I mean, just cows, pigs, crops, old farmers...

Imported food? Who said anything about imported food? I'm talking about food grown here in the U.S. In order to get it from the countryside to the processors, wholesalers, and finally grocers, you have to have trucks.

Plastic wrap is a matter of hygiene, food quality, and food safety. You plan to take your meat home raw and bleeding or freezer burned? Any ideas on how to corral the frozen peas, corn, etc. without the plastic bag?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. Well, if we'd listened to Jimmy Carter in 1980

we might have worked around those problems by now. We might have developed an alternative to plastic wrap, and our small towns (not large cities) may have been healthier. (Having lived in a town of 15,000 for seven years, I know that towns of that size are quite walkable and bikable, even if the locals don't always realize it and assume that your car must be in the shop if they see you walking six blocks.)

But no, we had to be in denial because it seemed like more fun at the time.

[cornermouse]

13. Okay. I'll agree with you on Jimmy Carter and small towns.

But.

Having lived in a small town, you must realize how many and what type of jobs that are available in those small towns, how much they tend to pay or not to pay, and the term bedroom communities. And although it would be nice to spend less time driving down some stupid highway and more with my kids, we can't all live near our jobs.

[leveymg]

6. "Bring it ON!!!" Look at what happened the last time someone said that.

My wife and I live in the DC area, which has some of the worst traffic congestion in the country. We both need cars to get to work -- no practical public transit for suburb-to-suburb commutes -- so we have two cars.

Both are small displacement 4 cylinder vehicles - a 2.3 liter Volvo wagon and a 1.6 liter Miata. The Volvo averages about 27 mpg, the Mazda 22 mpg (I have a heavier foot than she does, as she's contantly reminding me.) We put a combined 500 miles a week on our vehicles. At 25 mpg average, we consume about 20 gallons of precious post-Peak oil unleaded a week. At the moment, that's $43 a week out of our pockets - we ain't rich.

Tell me, lovable liberal, how wonderful it'll be when gas hits $4.50 and we're shelling out 90 bucks instead? Tell me, how can I conceivably alter my lifestyle to avoid an ever deepening gouge into our household budget. No, we don't have the money to go out and replace our 12 year old vehicles with new hybrids right now.

The higher costs of technological transition may be necessary, but how is it so damned wonderful?

:shrug:

[lakeguy]

9. seems people always have an excuse to drive but never...

an excuse not to drive. for me, $4.50 and I would sell my car. hell, i'm selling it in 6 months anyway...anyone want to bet what gas will cost then? not everyone can lose the car but it is surprising what you can do if you are forced. i bike 25 miles to work (rain or shine) and if i have to, luckily i can bus in. riding the bus pretty much sucks though because it takes longer than riding bike! more lrt would be great, i really miss not having that.

i'm not trying to knock anyone who is stuck driving. but, higher gas prices seem like the only way to get the US consumer off oil. $4.50 is going to happen, and even higher. you can complain about it now but it won't change prices driven by supply and demand, or monopolies for that matter. either you alter your lifestyle, or pay more, simple as that.

btw, how the heck does europe get away with $4-$5 per gallon gas prices without it "destroying" business?

[cornermouse]

10. Smaller territory, denser population, established mass transit?

:shrug:

[leveymg]

11. I'd guess about $3.50/gal. Try biking on the Beltway.

If this were Europe, I'd take the train. But, you know, it doesn't go there.

You miss the point. This country is structured around the damned car. Any transition is going to be a lot more painful here for that very reason. You know the cost is just going to be passed down to people like me and you. Don't gloat.

:eyes:

[loveable liberal]

14. for christ sake have you no faith?

Necessity is the g**Dam^ mother of innvention. Maybe the world might just be better off without plastic crap all over the place. Sure plastic is great in medicine, but have you been to target or walmart or any other stinkin store to see plastic toys, and crappy plastic toys at that. Maybe, just maybe the american farmer will once more rise to greatness and be needed again. Maybe instead of oil in our tanks we can use pure ethanol, it is possible you know. Cut your damn grass then make fuel out of the damn clippings. So many friggen people are concerned "what about me, what about me".. what about you? F U!!! I happen to be more concerned about the world I leave my kids. I dont care about your 22 mpg piece of crap. One of these days somethings got to give. We certainly cant count on baby boomers to sacrifice anything of "theirs". Maybe out of this sacrifice we might return to the days where community mattered. Im sick and tired of people continually saying we "can't". And I'm not rich either. Two kids two adults survive on 1 and 1/4 incomes (taxable income between 25-30 thousand a year) which is dog crap compared to the responsibility I have at work.

[cornermouse]

15. Corporations have developed a practice of suppressing

innovation which might interfere with their profit.