Question re: unviable delegates at convention.

[crispini]

What if somebody chooses to sign-in for Edwards, for example, and their delegation is not viable and they join another delegation. Do they then change their presidential preference on the sign-in sheet?

[sonias]

1. Good question crispini

Somebody please ask at the Pct Caucus Training and find out.

I think that in states that only do Caucuses, that they are allowed to join a surviving caucus if their choice is not viable. So I would think ours would allow that as well. The devil is in the details, however. I can see with the concern about making sure there are no shenanigans going on in the pct. caucus that they don't want those sign in sheets to be changed.


It may mean that they can "vote for delegates" but can not be considered as part of the presidential strength for the allocation number purposes. So be sure you get it right folks, the first time.


Sonia

[NoPasaran]

2. According to our training session here in Travis County

Yes, they do. This is so the total number of people in each candidate group jibes with the recorded sign-ins.

[sonias]

3. So you are saying that the sheets can have scratch offs?

That's what crispini is asking. The total number of people would jibe even if someone signed up for Edwards. It's just that the sign-in for Edwards may not have any voting strength or power unless they choose to join another camp.

For example lets say we have a pct where 7 people show up and maybe this PCT gets to send 4 people to the county/senate district convention (and 4 alternates, I know)

Initial sign-ins by preference
3 for Clinton
3 for Obama
1 for Edwards

3/7 = 42% 0r 1.68 delegates rounded up = 2 Clinton
3/7 = 42% 0r 1.68 delegates rounded up = 2 Obama
1/7 = 14% Or .57 (none left over so they get zero delegates) Edwards = Not viable

That single Edwards supporter is really important here. If they have to remain an Edwards supporter and not waiver, then their caucus for all practical purposes is over isn't it? The caucus goes 2 for Clinton and 2 for Obama. And 2-2 for their alternates as well.

If they are allowed to switch, especially their sign-in preference, then whichever camp they end up in may get three delegates because they will have 57% of the voting strength. Because what ever camp ended up with them now has a 4-3 advantage. According to what I understand from our pct captain training the camp with the 4 sign ins now supporting one of the viable candidates will get an extra delegate, instead of the 2-2 split.

We're the people who are supposed to understand this? I'm not sure myself. :shrug:

Sonia

[thevoiceofreason]

6. I thought the breakover spot on a 4 delegate precinct was 62.5%

For a 6 delegate precinct, the 3-3, 4-2 breakover is 58.33%

For an 8 delegate precinct, the 4-4, 5-3 breakover is 56.25%

Am I wrong?

By the way, for an odd number of delegates in a precinct, the (for example 3-4, 4-3) breakover is 50%.

[NoPasaran]

7. Yes, that is what I am saying

But, in your example, Clinton and Obama still get two delegates each.

THRESHOLD: Number of people at the precinct convention divided by Number of delegates to which precinct is entitled

7 Divided by 4 = 1.75 Rounded UP so 2 people are required for a delegate.

Let's say the Edwards person joins the Obama group

The percentage of people supporting each candidate is figured by:

Number of people in that presidential group DIVIDED BY Total number of people at precinct convention

So for the Obama group 4/7 = .57

Then the number of delegates the group gets is the number of delegates the precinct is entitled to multiplied by the percentage figured above

4 multiplied by .57 equals 2.28 ROUNDED DOWN to 2

The Clinton group figures its percentage:

3/7 = .42

Now 4 multiplied by .42 equals 1.68 rounded down to 1

So far, three delegates have been allocated. The final delegate goes to the group with the largest fractional remainder, the Clinton group, since .68 > .28.

So the Obama group contains 4 people, and they vote among themselves to select 2 delegates and 2 alternates.

The Clinton group contains 3 people, and they select 2 of their number as delegates and 1 as their alternate. Since the Clinton group has a vacant alternate slot, they can add the name of a qualified voter as their second alternate, as long as they do it at the precinct convention.

NOTE: If you went to the TCDP training, Formula C was incorrect; there will be a corrected version in the packet. (The examples demonstrating how the formulae work are correct, however.)

[WolverineDG]

9. Oh god, we have to do math

now my head is really hurting. :crazy:

dg

[sonias]

10. I'm starting to understand this

Your answer is exactly how the campaign explained it too. We have a worksheet which I posted below in post #8. If you use my example with that worksheet we get exactly what you said. 2-2

worksheet

thanks

Sonia

[crispini]

4. Here are more rules

10. Election Procedure in Presidential Years. In presidential years, as all qualified participants enter their names, residence addresses, and cities or towns upon the Temporary Roll of the Convention, they also shall indicate their presidential preference or uncommitted status. When it is time in the Order of Business to elect Delegates and Alternates to the County or Senatorial District Convention, the procedure shall be as follows:

(a) The Convention Chair shall announce the number of eligible voting members on the roll, the number of Delegates and Alternates the Convention is entitled to elect, and the number and percent of each presidential preference or uncommitted status reflected on the roll.

(b) On the basis of such determination, those preferring each presidential candidate and those who are uncommitted shall caucus separately to elect the same proportion of County or Senatorial District Convention Delegates and Alternates as their group represents at the Precinct Convention. Persons in a group comprising entitlement to less than one Delegate may proceed to the caucus of their second choice.

(c) The percentages then will be refigured, if necessary, and the new figures shall be used to allocate positions by preference.

From here:
http://txdems.bluestatedigital.com/the_party/article_iv_party_conventions

So, it's pretty clear to me that the person CAN change delegations, and that their change of delegation will count in the final math.

I think there are two possibilities as far as the sheets go:

1) Have that person scratch through their presidential preference check on the sign in sheet and initial it.
2) Have that person scratch through their original line on the sign in sheet and fill out a new line.

I will ask if there is a preference at the training. I think #1 would not throw your numbers off (which is nice) but #2 would be more "secure."

[CoolOnion]

5. Hope they have a math class at that training event

3/7=42%? I didn't know we'd have to convert fractions to percentages at this precinct convention thing. If more than three people show up to my convention, I'm screwed!

[sonias]

8. Take a calcutor or a math genius with you

I'm not a math genius but I do have a lap top that has a calculator. Don't be outwitted by those with tools!

This still doesn't not resolve the original question crispini asked, which is are people allowed to scratch off their preference and write in another candidate? Or is it better to do an initial caucus by standing in a corner of the room first before you sign in for a preferance. That's what we want to know.

We should call our PCT convention caucuses the "Leave no vote behind" caucus test!

Here is one more very long piece from my campaign on how to do this calculation.

Number of delegates your precinct will elect to the Senate District Convention: _______ (number is provided to your in your packet)

First, determine which groups are eligible to caucus, or earn delegates:

_______ Number of people attending the Precinct Convention; Divided by

_______ Number of delegates to the County/Senate District Convention to which the precinct is entitled; Equals

_______ Number needed to form a caucus - aka the 'threshold.' (Always round this result UP, e.g. 5.1 = 6)

Note: If a group does not have enough members to be eligible to caucus (because they did not meet this threshold), group members must join the caucus of their second choice. The caucus numbers must then be recalculated and the delegates allocated accordingly.

Second, determine how many delegates each candidate caucus group gets:

________ Number of people in a candidate caucus; Divided by

________ Number of people at your Precinct Convention; Equals

________ Percent of Convention (Be sure to copy the "Percent of Convention" onto your Convention Minutes); Multiplied by

________ Number of delegates to which your precinct is entitled; Equals

________ Unrounded number of delegates to which the candidate caucus is entitled.

_______ Next, round the number DOWN to the next whole number to determine the number of delegates to which the candidate caucus is entitled (e.g., 3.6 = 3).

Third, allocate any remaining delegates, following the example below.

EXAMPLE:

The precinct gets 6 delegates and 6 alternates to the County/Senate District Convention.

35 people attend the precinct convention. 12 are for A, 13 are for B and 10 are for C.

You need 6 people to form a caucus that would be entitled to a delegate (35/6 = 5.83 = 6).

The number of delegates each caucus gets is:

Group A: 12/35 = 34.28 % X 6 = 2.057 Rounded down = 2

Group B: 13/35 = 37.24 % X 6 = 2.228 Rounded down = 2

Group C: 10/35 = 28.57 % X 6 = 1.714 Rounded down = 1

Now, how do you allocate the 6th delegate position? Allocate remaining delegates based on the fractional remainders until you run out of delegates. In this example, Group C would get the last delegate because it has the highest fractional remainder (.714).

So the final allocation of our precinct’s 6 delegates is A = 2, B = 2, and C = 2. Each caucus elects the same number of alternates as delegates. If there is a tie (the fractional remainders are equal), the delegate spot can be awarded by lot or chance (coin flip, drawing straws), or by at-large election.

:scared:

Sonia

[CoolOnion]

11. Thanks, that helps. I'll be sure to bring my calculator.

[crispini]

12. Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Shoot me now.

[TexasThoughtCriminal]

13. Here's a link to print more sign-in sheets

There are only 12 lines on a sign-in sheet for pct convention attendees. Don't know how many sheets you can expect in your convention packet, but here's a link to the PDF to print more if necessary.

http://www.txdemocrats.org/page/-/2008%20Convention/Pct%20conv%20sign%20in.pdf

[sonias]

14. Thank you TTC thats handy

Sonia

[TexasThoughtCriminal]

15. Related question: What do you do with people that leave?

What if the Edwards supporter decides to leave rather than caucus with another group? What about people that sign in their preference and then leave? This is important to know because the campaigns have been telling their people that they can do just that.

When the groups split up to caucus, do you add in those those who signed in a preference but are no longer there? Or do you have to be physically present to caucus?:shrug:

[sonias]

16. TTC they can leave once they sign in for a preference

If the Edwards supporter chooses to leave without changing his/her allegiance to one of the other viable candidates, that vote is lost. You can't force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. It's unfortunate that the voter would have chosen to do that, but they are certainly allowed to do that.

Here is the part that the two larger campaigns are telling people. You can just show up, sign up with your presidential preference and leave. They in fact can do that. We obviously would prefer they stayed and participated all the way through the delegate election process but they don't have to. The number of delegates awarded to a campaign that is viable will be based on the number of eligible caucus people who voted their support on the sign in sheets. The remaining people who stay through the process will have the voting strength of the whole block that signed in. The number of delegates assigned to each campaign is based on the sign in sheets presidential preference, not who stays through the whole convention. But obviously some people have to stay to make sure loyal delegates are nominated/elected to move on. That's what the PCT captains for each campaign are doing.


Take a look at crispini's other tread about an opening statement to the convention, you might be able to convince some of them to stay and watch all the sausage making because it really is neat.

Sonia

[TexasThoughtCriminal]

17. That makes sense and is fair

I could see a newbie convention chair counting heads in the room and assigning percentages accordingly, and forgetting the one person that left. Thanks.:thumbsup: