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Shootings surge prompted by Canadians smuggling guns, U.S. ambassador says

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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:08 PM
Original message
Shootings surge prompted by Canadians smuggling guns, U.S. ambassador says
Shootings surge prompted by Canadians smuggling guns, U.S. ambassador says
Last Updated Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:56:16 EDT
CBC News

A rash of shootings in Toronto this summer has been fuelled by Canadians smuggling guns over the border, the U.S. ambassador said Thursday at a provincial premiers conference in Alberta.

"I've heard more than one Canadian official say it's mostly Canadians bringing the guns across," Ambassador David Wilkins said after meeting Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty in Banff, Alta.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/08/11/guns050811.html
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. Let's get this straight.
When guns are shipped from Iran into Iraq, it's the Iranians that're to blame. But when guns are shipped from the US into Canada, it's the Canadians that're to blame?

Uh-huh. :eyes:
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Heh..BINGO!
Because 3 or 4 at a time makes Toronto 'murder city'.

Riiiight.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. and don't forget

When residents of the US grow marijuana, it's the fault of the Canadian who sold them the seeds.

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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
3. I heard this nutcase on CBC (not Peter Mansbridge)
He says that the problem is that people are using guns to solve their disputes "and THAT problem is not imported from the U.S." ...
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glarius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. Is this U.S Ambassador going to be a butt-in-ski like the last one?
Will he also be going from coast to coast, lecturing Canadians on how we should behave....like the last ambassador?
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Canadian_moderate Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
5. Just being the Devil's advocate here, but...
isn't it upto us to prevent this stuff from entering Canada?

Just like we don't check vehicles that are exiting Canada, the Americans don't check vehicles exiting the USA.

It's up to us to stop the smuggling. We may not like American guns laws, but we can't control American legislation. Let's take responsibility for this ourselves and stop blaming the Americans for every stupid little problem.

BTW, I live in downtown Toronto (Corktown area just south of Regent Park) and I feel very safe. Our murder is less than the country's average so lets not blow this out of proportion. In fact, the murder and crime rates across Canada are at an all-time low.
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Correct
And we don't need someone telling us that they have heard rumors that the problem is entirely ours. Especially when that someone is a guest. We don't consider gun control a stupid little little problem. I think that seed control is a stupid little problem though.
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glarius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Remember tha last Ambassador?....Cellucci?....he spent his time in Canada
Edited on Fri Aug-12-05 12:35 PM by glarius
travelling across the country lecturing us on how we should run our country too....Just one of George's boys you know!
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Canadian_moderate Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. True enough...
but Emery's getting lots of publicity out of the story. He won't be deported. If so, there will be huge political fall out for the Libs.

If Emery's deported for exporting his seeds, we can start requested the extradition of gun/weapons dealers in the States.
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. We
Edited on Fri Aug-12-05 01:16 PM by CHIMO
Don't have to wait for someone to be deported for that.
I would like to see us try and implement some of the MLA power. Did we see anything happen when our laws were broken in the US when judges imposed a ban on reporting hearings? No. It never even came up on the radar.

From my reading of the MLA the whole thing looks like a one way street. Seems like the stronger entity can deny the request if they see fit to do so.

(Oops. Thought you were replying to my last entry. Sorry bout that.)
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. not sure how that would work
We have that however-many-thousand-kilometres long undefendable border.

We may not like American guns laws, but we can't control American legislation. Let's take responsibility for this ourselves ...

Well, that's true. But there really is more to it than that.

You might want to read up on things like international efforts to control trafficking in small arms, and the pariah that the US has made itself in that respect.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/July2003/11/c1733.html
(media release; no copyright issues)

Gun Lobby Attacks on Canada's Gun Control Efforts at the UN Backfire: International Groups Praise Canada's Resolve in Tackling the Gun Problem

UNITED NATIONS, NEW YORK, NY, July 11 /CNW/ - As the United Nations Biennial meeting on the Illicit Trade in Small Arms wrapped up in New York, advocates working to fight gun violence worldwide concluded that the gun lobby's efforts to discredit Canada seem to have backfired.

"Aggressive attacks on Canada by the National Rifle Association (NRA) and the Canadian gun lobby only strengthen the resolve of groups and governments around the world to tackle illegal gun running," said Professor Wendy Cukier, President of the Coalition for Gun Control (Canada), who attended the meeting.

Noting the repeated efforts in recent years of the NRA to undermine Canada's gun control program, she said: "Our success seems to make them nervous: Americans might actually realize there is another path to follow. When we compare Canada to most countries in the world, as we have over the past week, it's clear that we are on the right track".

The National Rifle Association (NRA) and Canada's Institute of Legislative Action (CILA) attended the UN Biennial Meeting on Small Arms as two of a small number of pro-gun groups trying to slow the progress of an international plan to prevent illicit small arms proliferation. On Wednesday, sarcastic comments from pro-gun representatives about Canada's gun control efforts elicited little support. After listening to attacks on Canada's licensing and registration system, Ambassador Kuniko Inoguchi of Japan, the conference chair, thanked the gun lobby for its comments but expressed her confidence in Canada's approach. The International Action Network on Small Arms (IANSA) praised Canada's commitment to fighting the illegal trade despite the vocal opposition. "Laws are only words on paper unless they are effectively implemented. It has not been easy, but Canada has persisted despite the obstacles," said a spokesperson for IANSA, a network of 500 NGOs.

"Canada's persistence despite the relentless and vocal opposition of the gun lobby has been commendable," noted Rebecca Peters, Director of IANSA. "The results of the program are impressive and we can learn from the challenges Canada experienced with implementing the law in the face of many obstacles. It is critical to understand that Canada is not alone. Many other countries have rejected the path taken by the USA and are working together to fight the epidemic of gun death and injury. It may not be easy, but it is the right thing to do."

Recently, the UN Special Rapporteur on Human Rights suggested that countries that do not adequately regulate firearms may be failing to meet their obligations under international law.

At the conference, several international studies highlighting the human costs of guns were released. The studies showed that guns claim an estimated 500,000 lives each year in conflict, in crime and in suicide. As guns in civilian possession account for more than half of the small arms worldwide, effective regulation is essential to prevent their diversion to illegal markets.

"In Canada, we have done our best to fulfil our international obligations," Cukier explained. "But we are vulnerable because of lax regulations in neighbouring countries. For example, half of the handguns recovered in crime in Canada originated in the United States, as do more than 80% of the guns in Mexico and most of the guns in the Caribbean. Lax gun control in the US is a cause for international concern in North America. What is encouraging about this conference is to see that countries around the world share our concern about illicit trafficking".

And the problem is not confined to the Americas. Not only are conflicts worldwide fuelled by the illegal trade, but countries with strict laws such as Great Britain also find their efforts undermined by inadequate laws in other countries. Michael Page of the London-based International Alert noted that "Guns tend to flow from less regulated areas to more regulated areas. We must have effective regulation of civilian possession. Licensing, registration and safe storage are essential elements of a regime to prevent the diversion and misuse of guns".

Although the United States had forced removal of any reference to regulating civilian possession of guns from the consensus-based Programme of Action adopted in 2001, Cukier noted that "the progress of many nations is quite remarkable. Not only are countries as diverse as South Africa, the Czech Republic, Brazil and Yemen strengthening their gun laws, but there are growing efforts to develop regional agreements to strengthen and harmonize legislation. Most illegal guns begin as legal guns, so adequate regulation of legal guns is critical to prevent diversion to illegal markets", she said. "It's been quite a year in Canada for gun control. It's heartening to hear from so many quarters that, despite the obstacles, we are on the right track."

All countries *do* have obligations to others, and to the international community. Some are only moral, and some are by agreement.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with asserting that the US has a moral obligation to Canada to control things that Canada can't, simply as a matter of reality, but that have serious negative outcomes for Canada.

Not that I'd cite the US as authority in such things, but it's worth pointing out that the US does not hesitate to do the same. In fact, when it wants to stop something being brought into the US from another country, it has a tendency to go right on in and handle the problem itself. Colombians could talk a little more on that question.


BTW, I live in downtown Toronto (Corktown area just south of Regent Park) and I feel very safe. Our murder is less than the country's average so lets not blow this out of proportion. In fact, the murder and crime rates across Canada are at an all-time low.

That's quite true, but it's rather beside the point here. We're talking about people being made dead -- including people who have nothing at all to do with any criminal activity. In a previous little wave of gun violence in Toronto, for instance, a man was shot dead while standing in his driveway in the early morning, for no reason other than that the gang whose members shot him wanted to deliver a message to the neighbourhood and its rivals.

That is not something that makes for a healthy, happy society. And complacency doesn't make for keeping a society safe.




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