UK Parties: The Conservative Party

[T_i_B]

A thread about the official opposition in the UK.

http://www.conservatives.com/

And the nearest thing I can find to an official statement of principles is this

http://www.conservatives.com/michaelhoward/

[Screaming Lord Byron]

1. Principles? Tories? Surely not.

Oh, OK, back to the Canada forum with me.

[Brian Morans]

2. Michael Howard has principles?

I'll always remember the look on Portillo's face as the results were read back in 97. That was priceless.

[D-Notice]

3. I've always regretted

Not seeing that live

Thing is, I've not seen it since either on TV or t'internet

Anyone have a link to a video of it?

[Brian Morans]

4. he looked like he was sucking a lemon

the crowd was barking "OUT! OUT! OUT!" (or maybe that was Mellor...).
It was number 3 on The 100 Greatest TV Moments...
As broadcast on Channel 4 about five years ago. Pipped at the post by The Moon landing and Mandela's release from prison.

[iverglas]

5. if I bring a present, can I butt in?

I was curious. No video, but a book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140272372/topbooks0b/202-9443402-5003019



"The cover of the book sums up the essence of the night .....a photograph capturing the moment when Stephen Twigg did the impossible and snatched Enfield from the once mighty Michael Portillo. The boyish, impish grin contrasting with the look of the utter disbelief of his opponent."

[Pert_UK]

6. Get back to your own forum, Frenchy!!!

:evilgrin:

Sorry Iverglas, you know I'm only joking......

Ya gun-grabbing Mountie!

P.

[iverglas]

7. I have privileges

All my grandparents were born over there (Salisbury, Northamptonshire, Nottinghamshire and the East End). That means I'm entitled to stick around for six months. Pftht.

[Pert_UK]

11. Give us a shout if you come over.....

I'll buy you a moose burger or something....

:-)

My cousin's in Toronto, so there....

P.

[RogueTrooper]

8. one of the best moments of the night

however Micky P did not look rather more thoughtfull that he did distraught. Ever since then I have thought of him as one of the right's most dangerous politicians. Fortunatly he is not held in high regard by the evil minions of central office.

[D-Notice]

9. I think

Peter Mandelson's a bigger right-wing threat... After all, he created "New Labour"

[LibLabUK]

10. Hmm...

Does anyone remember Rory Bremner's menacing digital puppet of Mandelson?

[RogueTrooper]

12. The DLC created New Labour

Mandelson just saw something usefull.

[LeftishBrit]

13. Agree about Mandelson

But one of the most dangerous right-wingers is Blunkett! I think I PREFER Portillo to Blunkett!

[T_i_B]

14. Agree about Blunkett

I grew up in Sheffield, and the white elephant schemes he introduced when running the council up there were virtually all massive flops which the city is still paying the debts from as a result. The Supertram, the 1991 World Student Games flop etc.

I think he has something of a talent for scarpering before the proverbial hits the fan. Off to Westminster in 1987, into the Home office in 2001 after, it is alleged promising to "make Jack Straw look like a liberal", I could go on for ages here.

[UKCynic]

31. Bad man

Blunkett makes Michael Howard looks like a liberal.

[moggie]

20. General election '97 video

Sorry for not replying sooner, but I've only just registered.

I know you want an online video, but I'm not aware of one.
The BBC released a video of highlights of their coverage of the '97 general election night, and it went to the top of the best-seller list (which says it all, really!). I'd guess it's been deleted by now, but here it is (I just googled for the UPC number):

Election 97

I have it, but since it's only highlights, it doesn't fully capture the feel of election night. The Portillo result is still fun, though!

I always stay up and watch the overnight TV coverage, and that was the best ever. Of course, we already had our doubts about Blair, to put it mildly, but after 180 years of Tory government (that's what it felt like, anyway), to finally see the crooks swept out of office, with a huge landslide, was a wonderful experience. I kept notes, and as the night wore on these got more elated and more drunkenly illegible. About the last thing I remember is heading over Hungerford footbridge, brandishing a half-empty champagne bottle happily at the people leaving the victory rally on the South Bank.

It seems a long time ago now, and I don't know when next I'll be able to vote for a party with a chance of winning.

[D-Notice]

24. Thanks, but

but after 180 years of Tory government (that's what it felt like, anyway), to finally see the crooks swept out of office, with a huge landslide, was a wonderful experience.

Unfortunately they're still in power, just under a different name...

[sweetheart]

15. You forgot the British National Party party

Since they are close to the conservatives in terms of their stupidity
and endemic racism, why not include them here. ;-)

www.bnp.org.uk

[T_i_B]

16. The BNP do not deserve a thread

They are not worthy of the attention.

And even then, we have the UKIP thread where the nasties are getting mentioned quite a bit.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=191x34

[LeftishBrit]

17. The BNP are one of the most worrying threats.

The BNP are evil. On the one hand you don't want to suppress any political party as that endangers democracy overall. On the other hand, I hate having their leaflets through the door. And just the thought of their leaflets getting picked up by a child who has just learned to read, and is curious about everything in print!

I hope they will never have an MP in parliament; it is bad enough that they have councillors in some areas.

[non sociopath skin]

18. Always a dilemma, Leftish.

How do you advocate the banning of a "legitimate" political party without seeming undemocratic yourself?

Scientific it ain't but my yardstick tends to be the advocacy of harm or discrimination. The BNP advocates "voluntary repatriation," studiously ignoring the fact that people who wish to repatriate tend to do so of their own volition. The clear inference is that those who don't wish to do so might be subject to a little persuasion...

The most morbidly fascinating aspect of the Beeb's useful undercover investigation was the footage of the unreconstructed nazi John Tyndall's obnoxious railing at the Tory leader's jewish origins. Interesting how the younger neo-fascists are back-peddling on their anti-semitism in an attempt to concentrate on the World Muslim Conspiracy.

They are beneath contempt.

The Skin

[D-Notice]

19. Well...

It's like going back 300 yrs and blaming everything on "Popery"

[sweetheart]

21. One of thier leaflets arrived here back at the election

and I chuckled at the stupidity of sending an anti-immigrant letter
out to a household of immigrants. Those stupid wastoids don't have
a clue as to what immigrants contribute to the UK.

Clearly they are short on brain cells, and a threat only to other
drunken yobs.

[Guy_Montag]

22. Read the Daily Mail though

& you get the same stuff as you get from the BNP, just diluted to taste.

So they do appeal to a wider constituancy than just a few yobs. They already have council seats, & had the UKIP not stood they would almost certainly have taken seats in the European Election (or so the Guardian (??) thinks.)

It is interesting to note that during the last Labour govt in the 70s the National Front were begining to make gains, but when Maggie came to power they virtually disappeared. Similarly we've not heard owt from the "Looney Left" since Tony took office. So I think to an extent the extremes are a reaction to the current govt. & even with a centre-right Tory govt we would see them vanish & the re-emergence of the more extreme left.

Just my thoughts & it's probably all bollocks anyway.

G.M.

[LeftishBrit]

23. Yes, the Daily Mail is scary

Once again, my liberal beliefs in freedom of the press come up against real concern about how much hate-mongering should be allowed, especially in something that's supposed to be a news source. And it does influence people. I had a Canadian visitor, who read the Daily Mail (not realizing what sort of rag it is), and got the idea that our population has increased massively during the last few years due to uncontrolled immigration. She was surprised to learn that population growth has actually been pretty slow in recent years.

[non sociopath skin]

25. You may have a point.

It's interesting that "Conservative" blogs and message boards, while continuing to pay lip-service to the Tory Party, are enthusiastic fans of the UKIP - as much for its anti-immigration policy as for its anti-Europeanism - and, increasingly, apologists for the BNP which they see as a "legitimate" party persecuted by "extreme-left politically correct" organisations like the BBC and CRE.

The Ken Clarke wing seems to have disappeared without trace. Perhaps they're all Blairite/Blunkettites now?

The Skin

[T_i_B]

26. One nation Tories?

Yes, I think they have by and large gone over to new labour. Looking at the Tory party now it is very Thatcherite and more moderate strands of conservatism appear to have been pushed aside.

I think that Tony Blair has a lot of appeal to such people and currently the tories have not got much idea of how to win back moderate conservatives of the Ken Clarke persuasion. If the Tories wish to regain power they need to gain back the sort of voters who left them in 1997 but Blair seems to have that part of the market cornered.

And beyond that, the Tories are in danger of retreating into an elderly, white, affluent home counties ghetto of their own choosing.

[Guy_Montag]

27. I suspect the moderate Tories are biding their time,

waiting for the right to self-destruct after the next election. That's what I would do in their shoes.

[fedsron2us]

32. I think you have nailed the issue

when you describe the Tories as retreating into a white, affluent home counties ghetto. My analysis of the last set of local government elections in the UK suggested that the Tories were winning back Council seats but only in areas where they already had the sitting MP. In the big cities and marginal parliamentary constituencies they made little progess. This impression was confirmed by the last set of Parliamentary by-elections in Birmingham and Leicester where the Conservatives came a poor third behind the Liberal Democrats and Labour. It was not the performance of a party that is about to win a general election. Michael Howard's recent reshuffle of the shadow cabinet has brought back many die hard right wingers from the Thatcher era. The political philosophy of this group is now looking increasingly tired and unimaginative. It is certainly not going to appeal to swing voters. If the Tories were by chance to concoct any vaguely popular policy you can be sure that New Labour will simply adopt it lock, stock and barrel. In many ways Blair is the true heir to much of the Thatcher legacy. I think the Tories know this in their hearts and are simply trying to ensure that their core vote does not desert them to UKIP. Their only real hope is that the underlying tensions between the Blairite and Brownite factions of the Labour party break into open war. Such an open split is unlikely to occur until after the next General Election .

[Vladimir]

28. Bevan said all that needed to be said on the tories...

[D-Notice]

29. Which was...?

[Vladimir]

30. In my sig...

[sweetheart]

33. How can the torys win again?

Given that the british torys are left of the american democratic party, i'd expect the democratic underground to be more sympathetic
to their plight than first impressions reveal.

I have a problem with the torys sounding like unelectable whackjobs.
David Davis comes to mind.

My advise to them: "Legallize Cannabis." Become a libertarian
focused party, empowering the citizen to be a pillar in the community,
and leaving behind the crusty (shall we say age-based) policies that
only the very old traditional torys are dying for (literally).

I like Mr. Clark, Portillo and the wise tories... and am saddened
that their front bench has been hyjakked by wankers.. nasty ones at
that. There is such potential, to use libertarian thinking to break
the iron chains of the welfare state and its way of destroying the
innovative brilliant spirit of individualism.

Even more wise, the torys should stand for increasing republicanism
and constitutional reform to remove the queen as head of the church
finally shifting the monarchy to pure window dressing. A part of
individual empowerment must be consistent accross the board.. and
since most of them have smoked pot in their day, it is hipocritical
to say the least for those fools to endorse a failed drugs war.

Finally, the torys need to break with the american repukes. Until
they do, they are unelectable, a joke. Given their current state,
i hope they get their asses kicked out of opposition by the libdems
in the next poll... and then perhaps they might have the room to
evolve... until then the old crusty dead generation will support
the in to the grave, and it will all seem so noble and defeatist.

Clark should be leader, portillo as chancellor, and letwin should
learn more about libertarianism... for a party of such intense will
to be in power, the current lot are a buncha loosers.

[muriel_volestrangler]

34. I think you give them more credit than they're due

While I accept that they're to the left of the American Republicans (who isn't?), I think that, taken as a whole, they're still to the right of the Democrats. The few you mention, like Clarke, and Portillo (once he was out of power) might fit in the Democratic party (and I'd put Chris Patten in that category too: did you see his great last speech as a European commissioner? " "Liberation rapidly turned into a brutally resisted occupation. Democracy failed to roll out like an oriental carpet across the thankless deserts of the Middle East"; "Can we now look forward to the restoration of that old-fashioned notion that allies have to be led, not bossed, and that multilateral institutions have their important uses even for the world's only superpower?"), but the looney right "sink or swim" economists have been a major part of the party at least since Thatcher was in charge (ie 30 years now), and they've also always been the home for reactionaries, who sometimes border on open racism.

The thing is, a lot of Tory party members really do hate cannabis. As you say, they may be old, and dying off, but they'll put off younger people joining - why struggle in a party to pull it into the 21st century when Blair has already made one where you can say pretty much anything you can in the Conservatives, but not be taken for a drug-crazed libertine the moment you say pot is the equivalent of a gin and tonic?

If anything, the party with a faction that seems to be going your way may the Liberal Democrats: Lib Dem radicals call for pro-market switch. It now looks as though the 3 major national parties are going to have left and right wing (economical) groups (and could the same be said for the SNP too?)

[LeftishBrit]

35. Thatcher moved the party way to the right!!!

Thatcher's immediate predecessors, e.g. Heath and Macmillan, were probably more like Democrats in the United States - they were to the right of our Labourites, but accepted the Welfare State, and were opposed to radical changes toward left or right. Thatcher pushed the party into a right-wing crusade, and pushed out most of the more moderate people, or even those who just thought for themselves occasionally. She labelled the moderates as 'Wets'; and for a long time the Wets (like, in a different way, the socialists) did not know how to fight this new phenomenon. In the end it was an obscure, ultra-Wet Tory backbencher called Meyer who announced the 'stalking-horse' candidacy against Thatcher, which finally led to her resignation and replacement by John Major. By that time, it was too late to save the party from domination by far-right-wingers and foolish nonentities. Unfortunately, this did not only affect the Tories - the political centre had changed, and Labour also moved to the right. Blair is probably to the right of Heath, Macmillan et al. He is obviously influenced to some degree by Thatcherism, and is described by some as "Thatcher's illegitimate son".

I think Portillo moved a bit to the left after he had accepted a challenge from a working-class single mother in Merseyside to change places with her for a week, and try living on her wages for that time while doing two low-paid part-time jobs and looking after her four children. He apparently discovered that it wasn't quite as easy as he'd thought! Perhaps all MPs should be required to do something like that.

[non sociopath skin]

36. Sweetheart...

I suspect that what you're envisaging is an entirely new party of the so-called "Libertarian" right. Although some Thatcherites were fellow travellers with these crazies, the ideas never really took hold as a philosophy and there are no signs that any of the factions in the current mess which calls itself the Tory party are really thinking down those lines. It seems firmly in the hands of Colonel Blimp and the Institute of Directors.

The Skin

[sweetheart]

37. I just read a thing in the times a day or two back

about a tory lord snuffybottom or something, who claimed to be
invigorating the torys with libertarianism... and i had to laugh.
As an optimist, i think the torys could be an outstanding party
if they went towards social liberalism, in the form of less
wars on drugs, less social engineering... and more small "c"
conservatism (no wars, green energy, religious freedom and tolerance)

I agree that i am being unrealistic... but i would not go so far
as to call libertarians "crazies". I know they like to do this on
DU, chiming libertarianism with "bush'ism", but i am a libertarian
and i would go nowhere near bush.

Libertarians believe less government is more. No drugs war!! No
wars, no subsidies to petrol industries or nuclear industries, no
subsidies for any corporates. I disaggree with some libertarians,
being a left-liberal socially, in that i believe all human beings
have the right to healthcare, that unions are a good thing, and that
minimum wages and stuff are necessary to protect labour rights.

Oddly, the tory party is not so far off that ideologically from some
parts (portillo)... I think the welfare state and mostly the
monarchy suck up the entrepreneurial oxygen from the private sector
economy, that weakens britain strategically... and a dose of
libertarian thinking would not hurt any british party at all.

Funnily, john stewart mill was british, but he seems grossly ignored
in his homeland.

[muriel_volestrangler]

38. Do you mean this interview with Sir Malcolm Rifkind?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-7-1260140,00.html

He does have the advantage that he did oppose the Iraq war. He's not that far off from Clarke. And he is a genuine human being, rather than a swivel-eyed monster.

However, anyone who says "unions are a good thing" will have a hard time in any Tory party for a long time to come, I think.

[Englander]

39. What the hell is this?? Tory torch

The "whiteness" and muscularity of the hidden torch-holder
is gradually being revealed;when will his identity be known....

[sweetheart]

40. It means tax cuts and graft make your forearms white and strong

I guess it takes a lotta work to steal from the public, and they
need stronger forearms. The taliban coatsleeve, is another sign
of the future. As well, they've ditched oxford blue, since the
university went communist.. :-)

As well, the hand could no longer be argued that of a woman, as of
course women are too busy cleaning behind refrigerators to bother
voting tory.

[T_i_B]

41. UK General Election Kick

:kick: