UK Parties: The Liberal Democrats

[T_i_B]

First of all, let me thank Skinner & EarlG for this new forum. :yourock:

Secondly, I hope you don't mind if I christen this forum with some threads on UK political parties. I will start with a thread on the Liberal Democrats. The Liberal Democrats came about as a result of a merger between the SDP and the old Liberal party and belive in proportional representation, greater ties with Europe, more money for public services and council tax being replaced by a local income tax amongst other things. They also opposed the Iraq war.

http://www.libdems.org.uk/

The Liberal Democrats exist to build and safeguard a fair, free and open society, in which we seek to balance the fundamental values of liberty, equality and community, and in which no-one shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity. We champion the freedom, dignity and well-being of individuals, we acknowledge and respect their right to freedom of conscience and their right to develop their talents to the full. We aim to disperse power, to foster diversity and to nurture creativity. We believe that the role of the state is to enable all citizens to attain these ideals, to contribute fully to their communities and to take part in the decisions which affect their lives.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. I'm an American, but I FULLY support this GREAT PARTY....

OF THE FUTURE OF BRITAIN!!!

[Worst Username Ever]

2. What is the Labor Party about?

If what I think is corect, is Blair part of the Labor Party? It would seem that "Labor" parties would be liberal... is he a conservative, or a liberal that was suckered by b*sh?

[muriel_volestrangler]

4. See TiB's thread on Labour here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=191x9

Blair is Labour, though he frequently refers to 'New Labour', to distance himself from the past of the party, which he seems embarrassed by. He deosn't like the word 'socialism', which used to be the heart of Labour, and now he seems to be rejecting 'liberal' as well - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3905547.stm : "Prime Minister Tony Blair has said it is time to mark the end of the "1960s liberal consensus" on law and order" - the consensus set up under a Labour government.

[Brian_Expat]

3. The LibDems rock. . .

. . . but are unlikely to form a government. :(

[BritishHuman]

5. I'm not so sure about them, though...

They come across as Labour-lite, except for the Iraq War. I can't help feeling that if I were a Conservative voter, they'd come across as Conservative-lite, except for the Iraq War.

[T_i_B]

6. Well they were the centre party at one point.

but as the Labour party has drifted to the right the Lib Dems have stayed the same and now they are often considered to be on the left of the political spectrum.

[ukrespect]

7. A word of warning about Lib Dem claims to be ant-war

Although by far the better of the "big three" parties in the UK, the Lib Dems make much of the fact that they opposed the war, however they openly supported the war once it had begun and refuse to commit to troop withdrawl now. This fence-sitting did nothing to help increase the pressure on Blair to stand up to Bush and not send troops to Iraq.

The only true anti-war party that stands accross the entire UK is RESPECT - The Unity Coalition.

RESPECT - Respect Equality Socialism Peace Environment Community Trade Unionism

A new political party born from the massive Stop The War Coalition movement that brought 2 million people onto the streets of London in February 2003. RESPECT was formed in February 2004 and in recent European elections established itself as the main progressive socialist party in the UK.

http://www.respectcoalition.org/

[T_i_B]

8. Calm down now!

I'll do a thread about the RESPECT coalition in due course.

[Mokito]

9. What is the British definition of "Liberal"?

Is it the same as in most European countries, meaning pro-free market and privatization, or has it a more American meaning as in pro human rights and social security.
I just wonder, because it could mean a world of difference and the word "liberal" seems to have so many different meanings the world around, these days.

[muriel_volestrangler]

10. Mainly used as a 'social liberal' these days, I'd say

so pro human rights, in favour of rehabilitation of criminals rather than simply punishment, wanting smaller or no punishments for using drugs, and so on.

Economic positions would be called "free market" or "nationalizing" (that last adjective isn't very good, but I can't think of a simple one that is used much. That in itself may tell you something about the drift to the right of British politics).

[T_i_B]

11. a simple one that is used much?

How about Keynesian? That one tends to get bandied about whenever government intervention in the economy is mentioned. How many people have actually attempted to read John Maynard Keynes though is a different matter.

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. Yes, that's probably a bit better

'interventionist' might be quite good itself.

[LeftishBrit]

13. It implies being to the left of the Tories

'Liberal' comes from the old Liberal party, and is used roughly in the American sense. Though there have been right-wing Liberals every now and then, just as there are right-wing Labourites, and right-wing American Democrats.

[D-Notice]

14. Lib Dem radicals call for pro-market switch

http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianpolitics/story/0,3605,1275493,00.html

The high-riding Liberal Democrats are set to be shaken by a controversial call from the party's young Turks to adopt new "tough liberal" policies which are pro-market and more Eurosceptic and place new responsibilities on persistent offenders.

The proposals include a social insurance system in health, reining back the regulatory state and greater use of market forces to address the global environmental crisis.

Sounnd like they're trying to be the Tories/New Labour... Just when I thought there was an alternative

[non sociopath skin]

15. Nope, they're just going back to basics, Guy.

I sat for four years on a studiously "old-Labour" controlled Council with a strong Lib Dem opposition who took a determinedly free-market, right-wing stand, frequently talking about "eliminating socialist thinking" in the District.

The electorate responded by eliminating twenty of LibDem seats at the next election. The Labour Group "thanked" them by adopting a "New Labour" agenda.

Face it: we have a choice between three mainstream "centre-right" parties with little in the way of a left-wing opposition.

The Skin

[Fish08]

16. It's a shame really

that democracy seems to force left leaning parties to adopt a more right wing stance. Although through history every political party goes through similar lifecycles i.e. left a bit, right a bit, woah stop, more to the centre, right a bit, right a bit more etc.

Although maybe thats just keeping up with the times?

[non sociopath skin]

17. That begs a question, Fish....

... does democracy "force" left-of-centre parties rightward or do they move there of their own free will?

And do right-wing parties find the need to swing leftward to appeal to this mythical "centre" to whom we're all supposedly in thrall?

The Skin

[limeyrose]

18. I sat as a Labour member in two local authorities

One was a highly-polarised, traditionally Conservative authority where we had no LibDems, and the other a Labour redoubt with a strong third-party presence.

I have to say that in the first case, although we were regularly at odds with the Conservatives, at least they behaved predictably and we knew where we stood with them. In the second case the Lib Dems were slippery and unpredictable, taking whatever stance would bring them short-term media attention.

It was particularly galling, I found, to see a Lib Dem member claiming credit for something I as a committee chair had achieved through lengthy and patient negotiations. The member concerned had written me one letter amongst many on the matter!

[non sociopath skin]

19. Sounds very familiar, Limeyrose.

One LibDem on our Council used to check out routine highways work that was planned in for his ward. He'd then go door to door saying that he was thinking of putting this forward and "seeking approval." When it was done, he'd put out a Focus leaflet pointing out what he'd done on his punters' behalf.

There was a bit of a racism issue with some LibDems too. When there were moves to accomodate some refugees from the Balkans, one LibDem said that as there were "no foreigners" in the District, the refugees shouldn't be allowed in as they'd be lonely without "other foreigners" around.

That sloshing you can hear is the sound of feet of clay...

The Skin

[T_i_B]

20. Sadly...

That sounds like the sort of Machavellian shennanigans that you hear about from councillors from all parties. I can certainly remember the Labour council in Sheffield getting up to all sorts of funny tricks and the things I hear about some of the Tories in the South of Essex would make your eyes water.

As to the racism issue, it's sad to say but the Liberal Democrats are certainly the most pro-immigration of the 3 main parties and both Labour and Tories are only getting worse on the issue at the moment.

[sweetheart]

21. I'm not so sure about the libdems anymore

They used to support the legallization of cannabis, but they sold us
out once in government.... well, that pretty much makes them spineless
complainers, IMO.

They're better than the torys and the labour, but arguably not better
than the greens and the lesser known liberal independents.

[T_i_B]

22. When were the Lib Dems last in government?

They used to support the legallization of cannabis, but they sold us out once in government....

I thought that they were last in government as the Liberal party in 1922 under David Lloyd-George. You do bear grudges for a long time sweetheart!

And the Lib Dem policy on drugs can be found on this PDF. It's actually to downgrad the evil weed to a class C drug and to liberalize the law regarding its use.

http://www.libdems.org.uk/documents/policies/Policy_Papers/policypaper47.pdf

[sweetheart]

23. not so in scotland

I know of 2 cases of people being sent to prison for posession of
cannabis since the downgrade... private posession in their private
homes.

My point is that whomever claims to make the laws on this island is
very confused, and afraid to stand up to the stupid scottish executive to make the class "c" change UK-wide.

Frankly, the labour party is a different organization north of the
border, and really your threads on these parties need to separate
the scottish and welsh versions, as they make and interpret laws
differently even in blair's own party.

The home office is for england. In scotland, the judgemental nasty
police state is still belives in imprisoning and destroying peoples
lives. Wouldn't it be nice if the policy of the government was
actually enlightened, and consistent across the nation?

[T_i_B]

24. And would that downgrade have occured at all

without Lib Dem support?

I don't think it's a good idea to blame the junior party in the coalition for two drug users being arrested like that. If you wish to go around blaming somebody then the best place to look would be the judges who interpreted the law in these cases.

And no, this is the United Kingdom forum, and it is only right that parties should be represented here as they stand nationally. Locally there has to be differences as parties tailor their policies to suit the needs of their locality. If parties do not do this the they risk becoming out of touch with the electorate or only standing up for one part of the country.

[T_i_B]

25. Lib Dems supplant Tories as the real opposition, poll shows

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=587576

Charles Kennedy and the Liberal Democrats now provide more effective opposition to the Government than Michael Howard, according to a poll for The Independent on Sunday.

The poll, which shows the Conservatives trailing Labour by 11 percentage points - the widest margin since May 2003 - will make dismal reading for Mr Howard. It suggests that the Tories are performing less well than in the final days of Iain Duncan Smith, replaced by Mr Howard a year ago this month. In Mr Duncan Smith's last month as leader, Labour enjoyed an average lead in the polls of five points.

On taking the fight to the Government, Mr Howard has been outdone by Mr Kennedy. Asked if "Charles Kennedy and the Liberal Democrats are a more effective opposition than Mr Howard and the Tories", 44 per cent agree and 41 per cent disagree.

[non sociopath skin]

26. I found the story rather puzzling, TIB....

....perhaps you could help.

It headlined that the LibDems had "supplanted" the Tories as the real opposition, then featured, alongside the 44-41 split on who's the most "effective" opposition, then quoted a voting-intentions opinion poll which placed the Tories on 31% (up 3) and the stories on 20% (down 10, it said, though I suspect that was a typo).

Now stap me for an idle varlet if I'm wrong, but wouldn't two major criteria for a more effective political opposition party be that (1) more people intended to vote for it and that (2) Its voting intentions score had risen and the other mob's had dropped?

Or maybe I'm wrong and the LibDems should be Going Back To Their Constituencies And Preparing For Government (again!). Please discuss ...

The Skin

[T_i_B]

27. That's the headline of the article

The only bit of the headline I missed out was the acronym IoS as I felt that this was not the most relevent bit of the headline.

The message of the article was that the Lib Dems are seen as being a more effective opposition party to Blair than the Tories, even though they are still a third party. Make of that what you will.

As to the chances of them actually becoming the official opposition, that is not likely and the only circumstances in which I can envisage that happening are if the UKIP do really well and eat up the Tory right flank.

[T_i_B]

28. UK General Election Kick

:kick: