Interesting article about a new Harris poll on legitimacy of election.

[mdb]

Thursday, December 02, 2004

A verifiable-voting insurgency

Colleen Redman

Redman, of Floyd, is a writer and poet.

Just as the U.S. invasion of Iraq seemed over with the fall of Baghdad, so did the 2004 presidential election seem to end when John Kerry conceded. But the war was hardly over when Bush prematurely claimed victory, and the election isn't over, either.

In fact, a new Harris Poll indicates that one in five Americans doesn't believe the election was legitimate. The number of skeptics would probably be higher if more people were aware of the scope of voting irregularities that occurred. Unfortunately, the corporate-owned media have mostly fallen in line with the "powers that be," just as they did in the run-up to the war (something a few major newspapers later apologized for).

More...

http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary%5C14736.html

[aquart]

1. Only 20%?

You get higher numbers for the Grassy Knoll.

[IAMREALITY]

4. Yeah, But most of the american public have heard about the grassy knoll

[rdmccur]

51. NOT heard?

What is the Grassy Knoll??

[New Earth]

56. first, you might want to fix your comments in your profile :)

the 'Grassy Knoll' is a somewhat spacious area of land (grassy, hence 'grassy') close to the location of where JFK was assassinated. Some people believe, to this day, that there may have been a second gunmen hiding behind or between some bushes on the Grassy Knoll.

[Wordie]

5. One fifth of the electorate doubting the results is TOO MANY!

And there have been other polls that found as many as 39% had doubts. It depends on how the question is asked. And the MSM coverage which for the most part has been either non-existant or extremely dismissive has not helped the matter.

[IAMREALITY]

16. IMHO

"One fifth of the electorate doubting the results is TOO MANY!"

In america, I think one person is too many.

[jamboi]

17. 20% ain't no small potatoes. Take heart 20% is enough for us to move! n/t

[clarisse1956]

36. 20% can move mountains

remember only 22% voted on moral values and ** won...so 20% can overturn this election and if we keep talking so that more of America knows what is going on then that will increase to alot higher percentage

[Kurovski]

65. And the "moral"(?!!) voters" were only a percentage of those who VOTED.

And I've heard Randi Rhodes say it's 12%. But I don't know how she came to that.

Maybe adjusted for actual voters?

Edited: I'm not yet as sure as you are that Bush won. :-) And welcome to DU!

[smartvoter]

26. Really? I haven't seen one that high. Do you ahve a link?

Would be helpful to have around...

[alaintex]

34. 20% of Americans, that's not just Dems

[Wordie]

2. Kick

[Karenca]

3. kick nt

[Melodybe]

7. Have they talked to any black people? I don't know one black person that

thinks the election was legit.

[Stand and Fight]

11. Yeah, I wish they'd talk to me.

I don't think it was legit, I know it was not legit.

[rdmccur]

49. Like 99.9% sure it was not legit (lower limit)

[BlueDog2u]

12. Yes, although I am not Black, I teach on a Black campus

And the suspicions are very great here...as is the cynicism, I have to add.

[intheflow]

58. Representative John Conyers is black.

He's on the House Judiciary Committee that is investigating the fraud and calling on the GAO to investigate. Jesse Jackson's also heavily involved. I'm sure between them they've talked with blacks. :eyes:

[Q3JR4]

6. Kick.

[Shalom]

8. Link to Harris Poll, Corrections and Comments

The Harris Poll is at:
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=520

1. It is more accurate to say 1 out of 6 (about 17%) did not feel the election was not legitimate. You get to 20% by adding up the 16% who felt this way with the 4% unsure.

2. At this stage of the game, this is NOT minor - the threshold for significant concern over fraud is NOT 50%.

3. If this poll reflects the feelings of the 115 million people who actually VOTED, it means that about 18.4 million million Americans who voted don't believe it was a legitimate election.

4. If these 18.4 million, plus all those who did not vote, and believe the election was not legitimate organize and act, they can have a tremendous impact: even if this 2004 election scam was conducted in a way that can never be PROVEN, we can make sure that this SHIT NEVER, EVER, HAPPENS AGAIN !!!!

[Shalom]

9. Correction: 18.4 million, not 18.4 million million!! You knew this...

[GettysbergII]

24. 18.4 million voters but we'll fight like there's 184 million of us!

"It ain't over until it's over" and it ain't gonna be over for me until we show Bush and the wingnuts the door outa DC.

[pauldp]

10. Kick!

[tandem5]

13. kick!

[Eloriel]

14. This certainly deserves more attention

:kick:

[bleever]

29. Sent it to Buzzflash, truthout. n/t

[RevolutionStartsNow]

15. 20% is huge!

Because the MSM isn't doing their job, very few people even know about the fraud.

I think that's amazing (and very sad) that 1 in 5 Americans don't think our election was legitimate.

I hope that poll gets some press, but somehow I doubt it.

Glad I got my "Bush Cheated" shirt and sticker on the way...

[rodeodance]

20. not quite a critical mass--especially if not saying anything or getting

involved in some manner.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

22. No, but it's 1 in 5 people. Think about it.

That's a lot more than I would've thought. That is enough of a percentage that it must be reckoned with.

[Oak2004]

52. Actually, it's a greater percentage than were active in the American

Revolution.

It is a critical mass. And this number will grow as more information leaks out.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

18. excellent article. kick!

[bklyncowgirl]

19. Considering that this has been dismissed...

both by the major parties and by the MSM this is surprisingly good news.

[Broken Acorn]

21. 20% = 60 million Americans

That's a lot of doubt...

[ClintCooper2003]

23. Brilliant article, but...

that 20% figure was from a few days ago. I would hope that it would be at least 30 or 40% by now!

You know, this business of stealing the election dovetails nicely with Bush's efforts to create his own reality, doesn't it?

[LiberalAndProud]

25. 20% is large considering that 10% did not favor the war in Iraq.

When we invaded Iraq, there were a mere 10% who thought it was a bad idea. Any idea what that number is today?

20% is huge when you consider that:

Informed people who are not bloggers and are not residents of Ohio do not know that there was a lockdown in Warren County.

Informed people who are not bloggers are not aware that 80% of the votes are counted by 2 corporations.

I could go on, but I think you get my point.

[glitch]

27. 20% is incredible considering the media lockdown. Woohoo! nt

[rdmccur]

53. Thought the same

[proudbluestater]

28. Great article. Little by little the word gets out somehow!

I like the poll results she quotes as well:

"Kerry supporters should feel some solace in knowing that the latest Zogby poll (Nov. 13) has Bush's approval rating at only 48 percent, with those disapproving at 51 percent (about the same percentages that the exit polls had Kerry winning by). A Gallup poll gives Bush a modest post-election bounce with an approval rating of 53 percent. While that is a higher rating than the Zogby poll, it reflects the lowest post-election approval rating of any of the last seven presidents who won a second term, which is hardly a mandate for Bush."

These results are far different than the 60% figure CNN was throwing around the other day. They only report the results when they look favorable, such "homers."

[shelley806]

30. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians protested the fraud in the

streets. What percentage of their population thought the election was fraudulent? My bet is more than 20%, but my bet is also that greater than 20% of U.S. citizens believe the 2004 election was fraudulent. But those silent doubts in the hearts of many will disappear without adequate demonstrations OR media attention, both of which are lacking here. Out of sight, out of mind. This is what B* et al are relying on.

[pacalo]

31. The Nov. 13th Zogby poll was interesting, too...

Kerry supporters should feel some solace in knowing that the latest Zogby poll (Nov. 13) has Bush's approval rating at only 48 percent, with those disapproving at 51 percent (about the same percentages that the exit polls had Kerry winning by). A Gallup poll gives Bush a modest post-election bounce with an approval rating of 53 percent. While that is a higher rating than the Zogby poll, it reflects the lowest post-election approval rating of any of the last seven presidents who won a second term, which is hardly a mandate for Bush.

[tommcintyre]

60. "8_year_nightmare " Your name may be premature ;+} n/t

[cloudythescribbler]

32. strategy to raise that number is KEY

The point about the 20% number is that it reflects the media lockdown of the issues. What is needed is a massive protest directed at media centers like the NY Times to STOP THE MEDIA LOCKDOWN OF VOTERGATE 2004 conveniently centered in the media centers -- blue centers like NY, LA, and DC, which are also far from contested states. Use alternative radio and other means to mobilize such protests and soon!

[keithjx]

33. Comforting

I actually find this comforting. Here in Montana, I walk around work every day feeling like I'm a conspiracy theorist and alone on an island. It's nice to know that, on average, I'm surrounded by people that agree that this "election" stinks. Now we just gotta start talking about it out loud!!

[KoKo]

35. * Lowest Post Election Approval rate of the last 7 Presidents! a snip...

Kerry supporters should feel some solace in knowing that the latest Zogby poll (Nov. 13) has Bush's approval rating at only 48 percent, with those disapproving at 51 percent (about the same percentages that the exit polls had Kerry winning by). A Gallup poll gives Bush a modest post-election bounce with an approval rating of 53 percent. While that is a higher rating than the Zogby poll, it reflects the lowest post-election approval rating of any of the last seven presidents who won a second term, which is hardly a mandate for Bush.

[mattclearing]

37. I love this quote:

"Kerry supporters should feel some solace in knowing that the latest Zogby poll (Nov. 13) has Bush's approval rating at only 48 percent, with those disapproving at 51 percent (about the same percentages that the exit polls had Kerry winning by). A Gallup poll gives Bush a modest post-election bounce with an approval rating of 53 percent. While that is a higher rating than the Zogby poll, it reflects the lowest post-election approval rating of any of the last seven presidents who won a second term, which is hardly a mandate for Bush."

[mattclearing]

38. Doh!

eom

[MsMagnificent]

39. Same statistic as *People who voted for Moral Values*

Now watch... because it's the Dem's, the spin on that will come to be 'only one fifth feel that way -- and they're the one's wearing the tinfoil hats'

Conversely, THEIR one fifth who voted for Moral Values MUST be a *Moral Majority* and therefore MUST have *established a clear Mandate*

Two-faced, lying, immoral bastards!


Edit: I realize that the one-in-five is drawn from the entire population, but really, they have to be Democrats... I'd bet there are very very few Repuke's who actually have enough scruples and honesty to doubt (even in the depths of their dark little KKKristian souls!) the results of such a "decisive election"

[Cobalt Violet]

40. 20% is HUGE considering how it has been shunned by the MSM

n/t

[vol5516]

41. only 1 in 5!

WOW! I thought it would be much, much higher! I'm surprised. That's not a lot!

[newyawker99]

43. Hi vol5516!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[appal_jack]

42. make this part of conversation everyday

Yesterday, I was buying some groceries, including some items that were discounted 10% when one bought six at a time. The scanner is supposed to deduct the amount automatically, but both the cashier and i knew that these machines screw up more often than not, and she said she'd ring them up first and all together to make sure.

When the discount _did_ automatically ring up, I smiled and said, "Well, that machine did better than the ones counting votes in the last election." She just smiled back, with not even a hint of a weird look.

Now, I have no illusions that grocery store chit-chat will be all it takes to wake America up to possibilities of electronic vote fraud. But I do believe that if this 20% referenced above keeps driving this meme onward and upward, then the number of cognizant, healthy-skepticism-wielding Americans will climb proportionally.

Democracy is not a once-in-4-years exercise. Our challenge is to keep vote-scamming awareness on the front burner much more so than post-2000 (ah, 20/20 hindsight, why have I been wasting time on ANY other issues between 2000 & 2004? Why did we as a polity allow the Help America Vote Act to be such a scam???). At the same time, Democrats need to craft a vision and message that will draw such widespread support that no amount of scamming will be able to hide our mandate. Let's go full-tilt toward complete Constitutional rights for all citizens, and progressive populism guiding our economic vision. No more mealy-mouthed walking on eggshells!
-app

[newyawker99]

44. Hi app_farmer_rb!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Igel]

45. Link

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=520

Harris didn't use the word "legitimate"; he used "conducted fairly".
81% said conducted fairly (95% repub, 68% dem, 83% ind.)
Not conducted fairly--16%, 4% repub, 27% dem, 15% ind.

Second question: Do you think that there are many, some, only a few, or no attempts to intimidate or prevent legitimate voters from voting?
39% said 'none', 26% 'only a few', 23% 'some', 8% 'many'. Check the the breakdown.

But remember that freepers (before the election) made all kinds of noise about fraudulent registrations and other problems, so what DUers point to may not be what repubs or even independents point to.

[Ozy]

46. Florida hand-recounts indicate possible Bush fraud

Well, the Miami Herald (pro-Bush) did a hand-recount of three small Florida dixiecrat counties a few days ago, and in each of those counties, after the hand-recount, Kerry was gaining votes on Bush.

Across the three counties, the total Kerry gain was + 0.65% (in a state where the margin of victory last time was less than 0.01%)

After the hand-recount, Bush was down by 0.07%.

And these results are from three separate counties. If there was no skullduggery with the counting machines, one would expect an even distribution of errors - i.e. Bush would be just as likely (have a 50% chance) as Kerry to pick up votes. Instead, in all three counties, after a human hand-recount, we see Kerry picking up extra votes.

The chance of this happening by chance is 1 in 8 - (50% x 50% x 50% = 0.125).

All the paper-trail counties in Florida must be hand-recounted.

The recount in Ohio has yet to begin - and in Ohio every county, even the electronic machine counties have a paper trail (ref: Congressman Dennis Kucinich, "A Note on the Presidential Election in Ohio", http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1110-31.htm)

Count, count, count! Let the true voice of the people be ascertained, and let's go from there.

[Straight Shooter]

48. Welcome to DU, Ozy.

:hi:

[Ozy]

59. :)

Thanks :) Only discovered this site in the week before the election, would you believe. I'm getting totally hooked on the wonders of blogging, (thinking of starting my own!). I think DU is a fantastic outlet - I mean, my room right now is littered with wee pieces of paper with county-by-county and precinct-by-precinct voting results manically scribbled down, trying to find patterns indicative of fraud. Now that I've found DU, I know that if I can come up with something solid, there'll be an outlet for me to draw notice to it.

I still don't think this election's over yet... :)

[kitty1]

47. interesting fraud findings at globalresearch.ca

according to this article, Kerry won Florida and Ohio by over 1 million votes. An enlightening perspective on things. Good read.http://globalresearch.ca/articles/MEN412A.html

[Digit]

62. kitty, have your seen your link elsewhere on DU?

I had not read this and found it quite interesting.
I realize with only 6 posts you cannot post a new thread.
Thanks for the link!

[kitty1]

64. No problem digit. Glad you enjoyed it.

[Kurovski]

66. This story making the rounds from "Brad"

is worse than useless.

It could undermine any real investigations as detractors of securing a fair voting process in America point to us lapping up unsubstantiated claims that are impossible to investigate. For all we know, it could have come from the White House itself. Or the Kerry camp, for that matter.

It's curious that Brad does not offer any way to actually rectify the situation by telling us how to look for these programs. Nor does Brad mention any contact he might have made with the FBI, the GAO, or the Senators wishing to investigate our suspicious voting systems. It is, IMO, a Red Herring.

Until Brad decides to come out of the closet with pay stubs in hand, or some proof he was involved in this, people would be wiser to ignore it. I'm guessing that if we see enough of it in the mainstream media--and I've seen it twice on MSNBC-- it will most likely be used to point to "how silly" all this concern about vote integrity is.


From day one, the MSMedia has invested heavily in calling those questioning the voting system in this nation as "conspiracy theorists." This unverifiable bit of info from "Brad" could easily be used to discredit our efforts.

I still somewhat believe that is why most investigation efforts have been kept low-key. To keep the MSMedia, now essentially owned by only 5 corporations, from gearing up into "destroy " mode as they did with Gore in 2000, Howard Dean in 2004, and in the way they worked to crush dissent for shrub's war.

The proof of any fraud will be in the machines themselves. We must demand access to those machines

"Brad" is proof of nothing at all, and if he's real, then we should urge him to come forward before we support or promote his specific claims.

So, how about it "Brad"? Even a pimply-faced freep can emerge from his mother's basement and do the right thing.

[mrstick]

50. lets do the math

isnt this obvious? 50ish million people in America voted for kerry, there are 250ish million people in America, thus 20% of America voted for kerry

[rdmccur]

55. Don't think there's a one-to one correspondence

between the voters for Kerry and the 20% who doubt legit election
Highly unlikely

[BlackVelvet04]

54. YEAH, Roanoke, VA!

I'm going to write a letter to the editor in support of Colleen Redman's op ed.

[Democrat Dragon]

57. So, what about the remaining 80%?

I think they're too busy worrying about Chistmas shopping, worrying about some celeberty couple's relationship, worrying about the Scott-Peterson trial, worrying about the next episode of some drama, worrying about black people breaking into their homes, worrying about Michael Jackson's Neverland ranch police raid, and worrying about the next episode of some "reality" show.

[tommcintyre]

63. WAIT, WATCH, TALK, 20% = "Flashpoint"

I think the thieves know this. That's why we are getting so much "attention" here lately.

[Senator]

61. Funny this poll popped up so fast.

I wonder if it had anything to do with the fact that post-election poll showed 39% (2 in 5) has "less confidence" in the election process after voting this year.

Barely a majority said "more."

(sorry, don't recall which poll, but heard it on Olberman)

[Kurovski]

67. Bump

That is all.