Concerns about the implications of this election

[Stand and Fight]

I am frightened despite what the articles are saying about being able to fight this election, and even more so being able to fight the Bush regime. Genuinely frightened of the lengths that these people will go to in the pursuit of their aims. Why? Because people willing to go this far will stop at nothing to achieve those ends -- even if it means permanently silencing opposition. There was one part in the article in which they said they're an empire, that they define reality. Well, if they define reality, they define what the truth is and what we see. The real truth? The real truth is that we've not only lost democracy, but we've lost our freedom to take action. The restraints are only going to become more restrictive, and it appears that no one is truly willing to take action to stop them. With the media on their side, all the odds are in their favor. That's a hard fact to swallow, but it is the objective reality of the situation. Bush may be worst than Nixon, but at least the media did their job and Congress did their within undo bias. They've consolidated their power through strict control of the media and by dominating both the House and Senate. Five out of nine of the Supreme Court Justices are Conservatives, the intelligence community is controlled by the Bush administration, and the military is unquestioning of their Commander-in-Chief. How in the world can we beat odds like that? The truth is that we cannot - period.

Don't flame me.... I'm seeking counsel and if others are feeling this way -- if you don't agree or have something harsh or rude to say, keep it to yourself please. I'd like to discuss options despite my reservations and worries.

Thanks.

On Edit: Hopelessness is setting in about the election, but I still want to fight, but how? I feel impeachment is the way to send a strong message, and if we can't remove the Bush administration from office we can cripple them. Please read the thread in its entirity and keep it kicked. Thanks.

[ClassWarrior]

1. "How...can we beat odds like that? The truth is that we cannot - period."

Forgive me if I misunderstand, but how can a definitive statement like that be seen as seeking council or allowing for discussion of options?

NGU.

[Stand and Fight]

2. My opinion.

I would not have posted if I was not seeking council. I would have kept it to myself. Instead I am seeking people's opinions -- not their nitpicking petty arguments on minutia.

[ClassWarrior]

5. I thought I was quite respectful in asking a legitimate question.

But immediately you resort to calling it "nitpicking petty arguements on minutia?" That doesn't seem like the attitude needed to foster compassion or a free and open discussion.

NGU.

[Stand and Fight]

8. Foster compassion?

I didn't say anything about fostering compassion.

And there is a discussion occuring if you'd not noticed! You don't seem to have anything to contribute however -- unlike the others who have posted.

[ClassWarrior]

14. Your plea for understanding...

...suggests to me that you'd like your statement to be regarded with compassion. Even if you didn't literally use the word. Which is why I've been nothing but civil to you.

But you still haven't answered my question.

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

28. Okay, since you refuse to answer, allow me to clarify.

I feel that absolutist statements like, "We'll never win," and, "There's no hope," are dangerous. Hope is the wellspring from which Progressives drink. Hope is one of our most treasured values. Let's not forget Rev. Jackson's legendary admonition, "Keep hope alive!" Whenever someone here says, "There's no hope," that troubles me. Deeply.

And you STILL haven't answered my question.

NGU.

[Stand and Fight]

Read below this message.

I have answered your question and now you are just being argumentative. Considering there is a discussion going on with others -- you are not being a contributing factor at all, save the last message you posted.

[ClassWarrior]

34. Nonetheless...

...the fact that others are trying to convince you otherwise doesn't negate the fact that you made an extremely "hope-less" statement: "How in the world can we beat odds like that? The truth is that we cannot - period."

Period.

Do you really believe that?

NGU.

[Stand and Fight]

36. Read the thread.

Then tell me what you think.... It's pretty clear I don't believe that -- I gave a line of thought post so that people could see the chaos I feel. I exposed myself -- no watering down, no sugar coating. Just honesty.

[ClassWarrior]

38. Then why did you say it??

If you didn't mean it. Please be more clear in your language. The Radical RW won the battles they did with the strategic use of language.

And as for your edit that "hopelessness is setting in," I have seen no hopelessness setting in around here, other than from a small group of posters who feel compelled to push this idea that there's nothing we can do, period.

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

40. Now you PM me to intimidate me and call me names?

NGU.

[Stand and Fight]

27. Your question.

By taking into account the rest of the post and the fact that others have gotten the point.

[ooglymoogly]

3. i feel your pain

this may be a fight to the death but it is our turn to stand and fight for our children and this planet. so scared? i think we are all scared. and thats why we need to stop this thing in its tracks at whatever cost.

[Stand and Fight]

6. I think it is going to be just such a fight.

This man, that thing, in the White House is a sociopath. I've never witnessed such brazen arrogance in a president, nor have I read about it in my study of history. Without the media actually getting off their lazy butts and doing their jobs, what can we do to actually CONVINCE people? They think if it doesn't come from the media, then it could not have happened.

[pacalo]

39. It's like a bad dream, isn't it?

Usually I'm optimistic & can find good in just about anything, but today I'm feeling dejected. We're bound to have days like that when we have so many days of bad news.

We have to continue to have patience. I keep thinking how Bush is like the bull in a china shop when it comes to diplomacy, & that he's going to be making even more enemies. Somewhere along the line, he's going to mess up so badly that nothing will save him from being run out of office.

In the meantime, we're hungry for some good news regarding the election fraud. It's frustration that's causing all the snippiness on the board. And I recognize the plea in your post for validation that there's still hope for justice. That goes for all the other negative opinions posted here, as well. If they weren't looking for "counsel", as you put it, they wouldn't be posting them -- unless, of course, they're freepers (which are usually obvious).

Hang in there, S&F. :)

[Stand and Fight]

41. Thank you so much.

Now THAT was a productive and encouraging post -- like most of the ones on here.

[pacalo]

42. Thank God for DU -- it's a great support system

especially since we've entered the BFEE's version of the Twilight Zone.

[meganmonkey]

4. You shouldn't have to worry about getting flamed...

for allowing yourself to be honest and putting yourself in a vulnerable position.

I don't have any concrete evidence that this can be fought.
All I can say is that if we don't even try, we'll never have a chance to beat it.
It is so huge and ominous that I mostly prefer not to really recognize how overpowering it is, because then I feel totally powerless. But remember there is safety in numbers and strength in numbers. And as long as we don't waste too much time here bickering over details, we really have created quite a community.

Again, we'll NEVER have a chance to beat it if we give up SO PLEASE DON'T - YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!!!

:hug:

[AmyCrat]

9. I couldn't say it any better than meganmonkey...

"All I can say is that if we don't even try, we'll never have a chance to beat it."

[Stand and Fight]

12. meganmonkey, AmyCrat

You're both right -- absolutely right. Thank you for your advice. Now I need some further opinions... What are our back-up plans? Will we continue to fight? Will we go so far as to lobby for impeachment of Bush? That is the only viable option I see. After all, the Democrats -- our representatives in Congress -- allowed the Republicans to win the battle over having verifiable machine votes. If they were that hard pressed -- they should have taken their battle for such to the people through the media. If they still cannot do it, if it seems implausible, will we lobby for impeachment?

[IAMREALITY]

7. Say it ain't so!!

Et Tu Stand and Fight? :)

You are strong, you are wise, you can do this. It is a challenge, we are up against monumental odds, but we will prevail, because we MUST prevail. We will not rest till we win, won't relax till we expose the criminal acts. They are strong, WE are stronger. And by WE I include YOU, Stand and Fight. You have the strength, you have the will, do not back down now. We will never say DIE. We won't give up. And your DU'rs will carry you when you are weak, with the knowledge that you will climb down from their arms in due time and carry them back....

[Stand and Fight]

10. IAMREALITY -- What are our options?

Oh, I won't give up -- ever. Thank you for your constructive and contributive comments. Not that you ever contribute anything less, friend. However, if this recount doesn't go our way, should we begin strongly lobbying for impeachment? If we have fought against these odds -- why not fight against those? And impeachment would include Dick Cheney by the way. God knows that there is a mountain of factual CONCRETE evidence for that -- Hell, even notable Republicans like John Dean have said that much.

[IAMREALITY]

17. Honestly?

I know it has been said a few times on DU and elsewhere already, but what we need is the passion in the Ukraine. We need to mass in such numbers that being ignored is simply not an option. That Not being heard is not an option, because our voices are too loud for earplugs to deny. Problem is I am still having trouble figuring out the logistics of how to motivate the masses to the degree necessary.

We also need patience. If this is to be the greatest scandal of our history then it will definitely require much time to fully unravel. Unfortunately Patience and Frustration do not work well together, so this is probably the biggest challenge.

We Need Cohesion. We have to stand together as a unit and not betray each other with petty bickering over non-essential arguments (gee, can't imagine what I'm hinting at there)

We Need Faith. Faith that Truth always Trumps Deceit. Faith that good always wins out over evil. Faith that together we can always do anything.

We also need rallying cries, such as yours, STAND AND FIGHT!

(p.s. we also need PROOF LOL but I have faith that will come!)

[Stand and Fight]

24. On Proof...

On that point, I believe there is more proof available in support of showing the U.S. just what a crook George W. Bush really is -- he and his administration have lied, obstructed justice, and endangered Americans through their policies. Books have been written on this subject alone, but the MSM has yet to really pick up on it. I feel that the 57 million who voted to oust the bastard are aware of this, and that they will mobilize to impeach him and Cheney. I don't foresee enough time to mobilize that many to change the results of this election. I feel we must attack on two fronts if this election cannot be overturned as I am sure it will not be:

1. COMPLETE and total election reform across the U.S. based on uniform standards,
2. Preparing a case for impeachment through collection of evidence, and lastly,
3. Once said evidence is collected and organized and BACKED UP by the 57 million lobbying Congress to impeach him and Cheney and the rest.


Even the Republicans cannot ignore the voice of such a large number of their base. I have personally talked to Republicans -- not here in Oklahoma -- that strongly believe he must be impeached to stop this country from falling into disaster. Did you know that you can fill a good-sized book with all the lies he and his administration have told about the Iraq war alone?

[Karenca]

11. Totally agree--Yes, they are strong, but we are so much stronger..More

than half the American population is behind us, and do not forget we have the support of the entire world! Bush os DESPISED ALL OVER THE WORLD!
We will win this-----I am scared---I live in NYC, I am a widowed mom with only one child---and he's draft age, we're all scared of these monsters, but we will win!
We are 60,00,000 SIXTY MILLION OF US!!!!! strong in this country alone----We will kill the BEAST!!

Do not ever give up!

[IAMREALITY]

20. Don't Forget

60 million that voted, 60 million more that didn't but still detest the shrub...

[Karenca]

22. I was thinking of that :)).

too----
I bet we're over 100,000,000 BLUE.

[bearfan454]

33. Exactly Karenca, exactly !

Never give up ever no matter what, never ! Like my hero Walter Payton said - Never die easy.

[jamboi]

13. I think you're being realistic. Its sobering. We must mass protest since

individually we can be picked off. 1 4 all, all 4 1 !

[Stand and Fight]

16. Thank you.

I've once been referred to as a "realistic optimist". In light of that, I feel it is imperative that we begin to develop a back-up plan since in all likelihood we will not be allowed to see the REAL results of this election. By that, our true president's inauguration. It is my opinion that since we have tackled these odds so well that we should tackle the concept of impeachment. Believe me -- there is a mountain of evidence in support of that. And none of it is circumstantial or dismissive -- it's based on Bush's own words, actions, lies, and deceptions over the past four years.

[krag]

15. They Will Fail

The failure of the neocon agenda to perpetually dominate the world by force is a foregone conclusion. The world will not stand for it, there are limits to the financial and economic might of even the United States.

Empires all meet the same end: bankruptcy. Every two-bit tyrant dreams of ruling the world forever. The problem is no one can afford to maintain such dominance. Period.

Bush and this whole neocon project are utterly doomed.

You might try reading The Unconquerable World for some inspiration.

And if you want to do something NOW, become a drag on the economy and a financial burden to the country. Hasten the inevitable.

[Stand and Fight]

18. I'll be sure to do that.

Thanks for the input. Could you clarify the following statement you made please?

"And if you want to do something NOW, become a drag on the economy and a financial burden to the country. Hasten the inevitable."

I don't quite understand what you are saying.

[krag]

21. Stop Shopping

Don't buy American. Put your citizenship of the world above your citizenship of this Christo-fascist theocracy. Read some Arundati Roy for more.

[newyawker99]

49. Hi crag!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Rhapsody in Blue]

19. The media just may come around......

They were definitely beaten into submission after 9/11. But lately the B* admin antics could be starting to piss them off: the "only one question" rule, the admission of using the media for their psy ops, the media's exit polls being made to look "untrustworthy" again and wanting to eliminate them altogether.

Maybe it will just take a critical mass of things like this to turn the tide. People, especially the media, remember events like Watergate, and I suspect there may be more than a few mavericks around who wouldn't mind breaking from the pack and exposing B*'s evil. Particularly when it begins to really hurt people (as if it hasn't enough already) and they can get popular support.

As for the public, wasn't there a poll just a couple of days ago that said 60-odd percent felt B* did NOT have a mandate? This can be capitalized on, once the vast silent majority sees a few brazen upstart leaders taking the charge against the regime. Now if we only had a few more of those.....

[understandinglife]

25. Here's an example........

Seattle Times: Two groups vow to contest election

I urge everyone to just focus on what we all DO now to support those groups and all the others who are going to save our franchise and force a fair and valid election is all that matters.

Here is the link to the Seattle Times article (and please note that if you do a google search on 'Arnebeck election fraud' you will already see 255+ hits; 5 days ago you might have gotten a link to something at dKos or here)

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/20021068 ...

By Steven Thomma
Knight Ridder Newspapers

2 December 2004

"WASHINGTON -- Ohio counties yesterday certified election results showing that President Bush won the pivotal battleground state Nov. 2 and with it a second term. But disgruntled groups alleging vote fraud planned to contest the statewide result and demand a recount.
One coalition plans to seek a recount. Another plans to file a lawsuit with the state Supreme Court today contesting Bush's victory.

Official results from Ohio's 88 counties were sent yesterday to Secretary of State Ken Blackwell. He is expected to certify the tally Monday showing that Bush won the state.

The challenges are proceeding along two tracks."


Peace.

"I Declare The 2004 Election Invalid: Someone I do not know was prevented from voting"

[Stand and Fight]

26. Exactly my feelings.

Do you feel impeachment is plausible given what you have expressed and despite Republican majorities? Disregard the hype in your answer though, please.

[s-cubed]

32. The media is coming around,

The Boston Globe had a multipage article.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2004/12/01/voting_errors_tallied_nationwide/?rss_id=Boston.com%20/%20News%20/%20Politics%20/%20Recent%20Globe%20coverage

Even the WaPo had a small article on Kerry joining the OH recount effort. They are sticking their little yellow toes in the water, and waiting to see if they get stomped on. The flood is coming.

By the way, I've done a test with two of my *ie friends: I asked them how they would feel if the election were frauduleent. Both were very concerned, but not because of *, because of democrary.

[understandinglife]

23. "Stand and Fight" -- share your fear; plan to fight....

....here is a specific goal that I think we can achieve if we all focus:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=101359&mesg_id=103158&page=

Sometimes a simple analogy works best, so just remember the lotto -- "don't play: can't win"

We are going to save our franchise, Stand and Fight; so, stand and fight.


"I Declare The 2004 Election Invalid: Someone I do not know was prevented from voting"

[Stand and Fight]

30. I agree with you.

However, in my mind we won't overturn this election and we won't win an election reform fight until Bush and crew are out of office. Therefore, in my mind, impeachment is the only option -- even if it fails it will seriously cripple the presidency. We hold all the keys in this concept because we have the numbers -- let the so called Evangelicals rally against us. I assure you that their 4 million is nothing to our 60 million -- more would rally to our cause than theirs.

[Fovea]

29. This fraudulent election serves

a mixed group of masters. The Amerikan Taliban, the resource oligarchists such as Halliburton and the sons of Enron, and the miltarists.

Of these, I worry most about the first and last catgories. The Taliban, because they have been encouraged to believe that they alone are Bush's 'mandate.' They now want control over policy, both foreign and domestic. They are the smoking red core of Rethug hate, and they want it all.

The miltarists and the oligarchs are almost identical groups, and they have mutual goals. Simply put, they want to create an empire, because empires are capitive producers as well as captive markets.

They are going to create an orwellian world of three super powers.
Jesus/Allah land who knows which will win, but they want theocracy either way. Paleo-Europe, IE the civilized world. Greater Pacifica, otherwise known as Asia Polynesia.

That is how it will shake out in the next 20 years, if they have their ways.

[buddysmellgood]

31. yes, they are scary. Now put on your game face and never flinch.

[stirringstill]

35. They Are Vulnerable

I fear that it will get worse before it gets better, but facts are facts. Truth has a remarkable way of finding a way out. It can take a torturous path, but in the end the world is not flat and gravity exisits and humans and worms have a similar number of genes. Unlike science, governments aren't as wedded to reality, but governments become sick the longer they stand in defiance. Sick governments exhaust themselves with ever more elaborate deceptions and use secrecy as a desperate defensive power grab. I argue that such regimes, when they seem their most powerful, will be most vulnerable to the TRUTH.

I think the truth about 9-11 or election fraud has the potential to rock back the neoCons & oligarchs 20 or 30 years. I put my money on the truth about 9-11 as being on the scale necessary to shock the system into awakening from this dream. That truth is lurking. The desperation of the executive branch is palpable. They are consolidating power, purging the ranks of the CIA, pressuring the media, attempting to put reporters in jail, patriot acts I and II, IRAQ, next IRAN or another terrorist attack. How many good Republicans and Democrats and reporters and federal employees are right now trying to find a way to pierce the illusion? A critical mass will be reached.

[Stand and Fight]

37. Brilliant!

I could not agree with you more. I do feel that the critical mass must first be reached here -- at the grass roots.

[kk897]

43. I keep remembering the famous quote only halfway...

...and I wish I remember who said it and the cirucumstances. I want to say it had something to do with the Holocaust.

"If not now, when? If not me, who?"

I keep repeating that to myself. It's something I'm drawing strength from.

[understandinglife]

45. Hillel

If I am not for myself, who is for me?
If I am only for myself, what am I?
And if not now, when?

Hillel
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/hillel.html

and, thus why we all must stand now against the tyranny of systemic disenfranchisement and proclaim, together:

"I Declare The 2004 Election Invalid: Someone I do not know was prevented from voting"

[kk897]

46. thank you! n/t

[Hobbes199]

44. Yes, we're all frightened and frustrated...

As well we should be. But I'm hopefull and optimistic that things _will_ improve, as long as this happens now, and isn't put off another 4 years when he gets to run for a third term.

The term "unmitigated gall" keeps popping up in my head over and over.

[tex-wyo-dem]

47. Stand and Fight...

I feel you pain, but I see a silver lining to all of this.

I think we all feel like this deep down and have the same fears. But it's fear like this that unites and makes people stronger. I truly feel that the Democratic party, liberals, progressives, etc. in this country have become rather complacent over the years. Over most of the last 50 years our cause has dominated Washington, pretty much since FDR, and success like that does breed a sense of complacency.

The silver lining is that at some point, people WILL unite over what's going on and become an even stronger force than before. I forget who said it, but it was something like: In the fight of liberalism versus conservatism, liberalism always wins.

[texpatriot2004]

48. It's always darkest before the dawn...Stand and Fight

I have admired your posts since I started visiting at DU. I know that the darkest before the dawn thing is cliche, but I do feel we are in the dark part right now. You know, like in Lord of the Rings when they go into the cave and then they meet the dragon character. No doubt, right now, it's dark. I am struggling too. I can relate to your doubts and fears. Be strong, Stand and Fight. You are a warrior. Even your avatar image is a symbol of that. It has brought me hope and joy many times. There is dread. There is fear. What does Yoda say? Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to... You know, historically, people of courage are never without fear. They act in spite of their fear. What to do? We have to fight. We have to fight smart. I am not really sure. We have to stay together. I am so jealous of the people in the Ukraine. Yet, I am not certain that would be the right action for us. I am not certain that it would not be either. We must seek out hope. Reach up and inside for this light of hope. One more thing, for the record, I don't think it will come to this, but if, God forbid, B* is inaugurated then you can bet your sweet sword that I will be fighting for impeachment right there with you my friend, and with anyone else who joins us.

[brindis_desala]

50. Dual Goals

While electing John Kerry would be the first important move to getting the country (indeed the world) moving in the right direction there is an even more vital element to the situation. The minority vote is crucial for the viability of the Democratic Party yet it remains ignored until election day when it's needed but also remains extremely vulnerable. My god, if you're young, black or brown you barely rate a damn vote. Kerry never discussed the working poor yet they're the one's getting KILLED by *'s insane economic policies. This fight against fraud and suppression must be fought for THEM because if they think you don't give a damn that they stood in the rain for ten damn hours to vote for a blue-blooded billionaire then you can tell John Kerry he better carry white Alabama in 2008 'cause he damn sure ain't gonna get Ohio, Pennsylvania or Florida. Keep hammering about the crap that went down in this election and the red, black and brown will stand and fight to the bitter end. We've done it before.

[Eloriel]

51. You are right to be frightened ---

or at least to see and acknowledge the threat, the Reality.

But then at some point you must go beyond that, to your power. Just in case you didn't see it, here's a thread that may cheer you up:

Please remember and take to heart . . .
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=105328#106793


One day not too long ago I realized something. We here at DU have been somewhat disdainful of those who fear another terrorist attack (primarily because most of us believe this administration either caused or allowed the first one -- and for good reason, I might add, if you're not familiar with that whole line of thinking). And of course, those fears were used by Bush&Co., and exacerbated in a very sinister and cynical way.

But wbat I realized is that WE were just as bad: we had our own fears: the Bush administration and others on the far right. AND THIS SERVED THEM TOO!!!

We have to get beyond our fears, whatever they are. Just walk right through them, no matter what. Acknowledge them, and then grow beyond them. Because whatever the future holds, it depends on us, and if we are cowering, if we are fearful, if we are limiting ourselves and what we can do because we are in fear, our future will be worse than it might otherwise be.

You are NOT alone. You have come to a terrible but necessary place, recognizing with full cognizance just what could lie ahead. Most of us older DUers (the vast majority) have stood in that very same place at one time or another. Some DUers may still need to get there, and there are MILLIONS of Americans who haven't had the good fortune to arrive at that place yet. We have to be ready to catch them and commiserate and educate and help them and mostly offer them hope for a way out. Thank God you're where you are: there's no going back in consciousness, and you can't stay where you are, that means the only option is going forward.

Come along (when you're ready), you're needed on this journey.