Discuss Keith Olbermann and Bev Harris in this thread. #6

[EarlG]

For reference:

Keith Olberman's blog: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240

Bev Harris's response: http://www.blackboxvoting.org

All participants should be careful to avoid personal attacks. We are still enforcing the message board rules on this issue and we will take appropriate action. Thank you for your continued cooperation.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

1. I think

On This issue Bev has left more questions than answers which is bad.

I have a few give them a try.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=105121&mesg_id=105172


From my detached perspective here in Canada this looks like a classic infiltration of an activist movement.

Perhaps Feds caught wind of the growing BBV community and sent in Bev and her crew to spy on it.....

When she saw that it was rather disorganized, and decentralized, she saw an opportunity to gain a leadership role and did so by co-opting the work amassed here on DU and elsewhere. Then she exploited as many personal contacts as possible to put out a book that launched her into the BBV spotlight.

At which point she seized control of the direction and culture of the debate by discrediting all others involved every chance she was given the access to the media her book awarded.

Now that the BBV movement was off chasing phantoms in a theory, directly under federal control, real planning of bbv fraud could begin.

Nov 2 Bev and BBV were given a new assignment ....Stall. Obfuscate and most importantly....Run out the clock!

Question #6 from the link I think is the most important question in this debate. It bring the credibility of BBV precariously close to the abyss.

6. How does Andy know Delmart 'Mike' Vreeland well enough that he was contacted by him from jail AFTER his latest arrest.

> God_bush_n_cheney (1000+ posts) Fri Oct-22-04 06:22 PM
> Response to Reply #32
>
> 34. No he called me from jail
>
> after the arrest. Wanted me to contact some others he trusts.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x924780#924780



More about Vreeland from the following article from The Toronto Star, Canada's biggest newspaper. Either Vreeland is CIA, NSA or a CON MAN...... so How does he know Andy from BBV.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1098568216092&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968705899037&DPL=JvsODSH7Aw0u%2bwoRO%2bYKDSblFxAk%2bwoVO%2bYODSbhFxAg%2bwkRO%2bUPDSXiFxMh%2bwkZO%2bUCDSTmFxIk%2bw8RO%2bMKDSPkFxUj%2bw8UO%2bMNDSPgFxUv%2bw8YO%2bILDSLkFxQh1w%3d%3d&tacodalogin=yes

Perhaps Bev was infiltrated by Andy, whose Questionable connections to the DUBIOUS Mr. Vreeland have never been answered.

Andy went so far as claim and post publicly that Vreeland warned him of a nuke attack in the US before the election. (see link)


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=105121&mesg_id=105172



Thanks for listening.

S.

I wish this was

:tinfoilhat:

[jamboi]

32. I think that's wack! Lets focus on getting WA last $100,000 for recount!

See the WA threads such as
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=103695&mesg_id=103695

[LoZoccolo]

55. I do think anyone that posts here on either side should give something.

Because we're ultimately on the same side! I've done it; who's next!

[crispini]

75. Well, I actually contributed to BBV at one point.

Ha!

But I also gave to Nader & Greens. Does that count?

[The Backlash Cometh]

57. Sad, really. I think you speel is very, very sad.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

84. It is very sad indeed

If you think it's far fetched remember the peace group in Michael Moore's movie.

What is sad is the thread Andy claims he has info he passed on to the FBI and Secret Service about a nuke attack before the election.

At least it shows poor judgment.
At worst it is damning indeed.

[m berst]

98. I agree

Why do people have so much sympathy for Harris? She volunteered to play in the big leagues. Anyone who asks people to soften or bend the rules, or act and think out of loyalty to them is either not ready to play in the big leagues or is playing a different game then they claim to be playing.

There can be no doubt that right after the election Harris allowed many here to see her as a savior, and that generated a lot of donations. People did not think that they were donating money to help her in her ongoing personal crusade and career, they donated money thinking that this was the best way to stop a stolen election. Harris has encouraged that thinking.

So much of it makes no sense. "The website has been hacked!!!" - OK so look at the server logs and figure out what is happening and fix it. There should be no mystery there, but people who don't know anything about servers would buy a vague "we are being hacked" cry.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

100. People really don't get it.

I live in Toronto.

Vreeland is no Urban legend.

He sat in a Toronto jail and sang strange songs to anybody that would listen about being an agent for Naval Intelligence with information about 9/11 ...pre 9/11.

He was released on bail and Vanished.

Police checked his apartment and it looked as if it had been ransacked and no one had seen him since.

Apparently he was wanted in several sates as well.

When he was arrested he called Andy of BBV to warn him of a nuke attack in Minnesota before the election.

Andy never discusses how Vreeland and he are acquainted. Or how Vreeland came to have his phone number with him in jail when he was arrested unexpectedly.


We either believe Vreeland who says he is a Navel intelligence agent(many 9/11 theorist here on DU think so), or you think he is a con man that was a wanted fugitive.

Either way he knows Andy well enough to....

> God_bush_n_cheney (1000+ posts) Fri Oct-22-04 06:22 PM
> Response to Reply #32
>
> 34. No he called me from jail
>
> after the arrest. Wanted me to contact some others he trusts.


Who is Andy and why does he know this character.

[m berst]

104. I remember that

It was very odd. Did no one ever get an answer to that simple question - why would Vreeland call you from jail?

[SomthingsGotaGive]

105. No one asked

They were preoccupied trying to get info about the nuke.

Read the link.


very bizarre

[m berst]

108. interesting to re-read that thread now

It had a feel to it at the time that was novel, but has now become more commonplace here. It has a "scripted" feel to it.

The sad thing about these controversies is the dissension and suspicion they cause between DUers. Notice how things are injected into the conversation and then get "legs?" It seems to be a vulnerability of DU - almost anything can get a belief-suspicion dynamic going. Some want to believe, so skeptics are met with suspicion.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

110. Yes exactly.

So either Andy is Connected to a 'Mysterious Government Agent' or a 'Fantastic Con-man' and compulsive liar.

Or.

Andy was making the whole thing up. Which is worse considering the gravity of the subject matter?


This unfortunately is the only smoking gun coming from BBV I think.

[Kelvin Mace]

121. WHAT????!!!

What is sad is the thread Andy claims he has info he passed on to the FBI and Secret Service about a nuke attack before the election.

Andy Stephenson?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[T Town Jake]

86. One thing you can say for sure about these threads...

...it's provided the real freepers with a few laughs:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1293221/posts

Nice going, folks. :eyes: Can either side really state that it's been worth all the effort (and flames) expended? I ask as a genuine neutral party to this affair. The answer has eluded me thus far.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

88. Yes it is worth it

Who cares what they think.

Olbermann has 125% more views

And, bbv is facing the scrutiny of main stream exposure.

If she can't hold up to it we should know now before she gets to speak for all of us.

[spotbird]

123. They couldn't have done a better job if you're right.

It really doesn't matter if it happened by design or accident the result is the same.

I have questions I wish were answered, but fighting about it only helps the other side.

[eridani]

Andy used to be a Sub Station manager, ferchrissakes!

He got into this the way most people get into it--reading about what's going on and getting pissed off!

[Liberty Belle]

2. Could someone have called posing as Bev?

How can Keith be sure that the caller who was so belligerent was really Bev Harris? I wouldn't put it past the GOP to engage in a dirty trick here.

[flowomo]

5. after the message she posted to a DU member last month....

I find it easy to believe she was "belligerent."

[JohnnyCougar]

16. count me in on that statement

I simply don't believe that Countdown asked her to be on the show twice, and then turned her down. Why the hell would they do that? What does MSNBC have to gain by doing that?

I have no way of proving who is right in this flame war. But I do know one thing. I have seen Bev act in a mentally unstable fashion before. I have never seen Keith fly off the handle at anyone.

When it comes down to this choice, I'll believe Olbermann over the lady that used to make a living selling penis sized Clinton Cigars.

[Liberty Belle]

99. I didn't see that. Darn. What's with Bev?

3. To ALL--

I have found Bev Harris and the Votergate film crew to be quite amiable, although sometimes quite busy.

I was in fact interviewed in the film before they left, and suggested they head for Florida.

They did that.

Mr Olbermann should end the feud. Bev is quite nice on film and would do a convincing interview.

Dan Spillane
"The light inside the Black Box, since Nov 2002" ( See "Black Box Voting", p.16)

[The Backlash Cometh]

76. I think we should start considering someone else besides Olberman

Once you put that kind of statment on the air, it will be difficult for him to retract. My advice to the votergate people is to finish your work at your own pace, and put the information on your webpage when you're good and ready. By the time you do, Ohio will have made a case for fraud, and people will be ready to give Florida a closer look.

[spotbird]

124. They aren't exactly lining up in the MSM.

I think everyone should go back to their corners and accept there isn't going to be a winner in this. The fight is destructive.

[DubyaSux]

4. Instant analysis...

Bev:
Black Box Voting requests retraction from Keith Olbermann, along with an explanation of why MSNBC alleged such an untruth. We have given Olbermann the opportunity to correct his factually flawed editorial by having Bev Harris appear on his show.

Keith:
Blow me

6. The mainstream media is quite shitty on the voting issue

In 2003, I myself was unable to get LOCAL media attention on my former lawsuit, despite the fact that it was carried in the NATIONAL media.

The local paper wouldn't cover it!

[AntiFascist]

46. I agree, the Media is still the main problem in this issue....

and Keith is just playing along with the Media by focusing on Bev Harris and not the underlying issues. The focus should be on weaknesses in the voting systems uncovered by the BBV team, not the background of Bev Harris or how easy it is for her to fly off the handle. Again, what we really need is proactive investigative reporting, not a newscaster who is only reacting to information put before him, although it is better than nothing at all.

[high density]

10. No, it was more like

Bev: (acts hostile and belligerent)

Keith: Blow me

[Snivi Yllom]

126. Bev Harris is an unprofessional according to KO

And I think he's right.

[Eric J in MN]

7. I still like both of them (NT)

NT

[DURHAM D]

13. Me too. Neither Bev or KO can listen to all of the advice

posted here - much of it is contradictory. My advice to anyone that does not like the way a movement is going is to start their own orgnization. It is easy to be a disgruntled follower and impossible to be a leader that satisfies everyone. Balance everyone.

[tjdee]

21. Personal egos are irrelevant here, though.

The most important thing is that our election system in this country is above fraud and tampering.

They don't have to follow advice.

They DO, however, have a responsibility to make the integrity of our elections a bit more important than "You didn't call me back for three weeks" or whatever.

[DURHAM D]

50. Have you checked her DayTimer ? n/t

[tjdee]

70. I realize she is busy....

but IMO you'd weigh it, and delegate responsibility accordingly.

IMO getting the tapes on television is most important. Clearly she disagrees.

[HeyManThatsCool]

183. It doesnt look like such "Hard Work"

She's spent a fair amount of the last few days posting around here defending herself against questions about what the heck is going on- without giving any real answers!!!!!!!!!!!!

As I read more and more of her postings, and from perusing the BBV web site (Pathetic by the way that for the last 3 weeks or so it has said pardon our appearance - site went down recently when we posted sensitive information) she is leading most of you on. She is taking your money and not appearing to do much besides grandstand and make a fool of herself in Florida.

I've said before & I say again......... Many of YOU are probably better qualified to get to the bottom of this voting fraud quagmire.

I feel bad for all of the people who blindly follow behind her

[spotbird]

125. ditto

Rush can't steal a word.

Can't someone intervene and point out that we are our worst enemies?

[Geek_Girl]

8. I think She didn't like the way

Olberman covered the LePore story so her people are pissed. Given the circumstances I'd say they blew it, with the media. They should've played very nice.

[tjdee]

11. Screw her people.

She should have gone on the show, blasted Keith for the LePore story if she chose to, and SHOWN THE TAPES.

[tjdee]

9. In light of how she handled the DU issue, I am not inclined to take her

side.

Keith Olbermann is one thing, but according to what I've read in the other threads on this issue, she threatened to sue the owners of DU. Not cool, IMO.

If I were Bev I may have gotten "belligerent"--but then I would have got my ass on that show and shown the tapes. Even if they called six months later.

That is what this is all about, isn't it? Our voting system? Exposing this behavior??

[s-cubed]

12. DON'T YOU HAVE SOMETHING BETTER TO DO, LIKE

WORKING TO SAVE OUR DEMOCRACY. I CAN''T BELIEVE THERE ARE 6 THREADS ALREADY ON THIS. HOW ON EARTH IS ALL THIS GOING TO HELP WITH THE REAL ISSUES?

[tjdee]

15. Bev Harris could have helped that process, that's the point.

I think there is so much discussion on this because many of us are familiar with Bev Harris here, for a long time. There is a history here you may be unaware of. The implications of this dust up between she and Olbermann affect the work of many people working to do just what your mommy post suggested we do.

Mommy posts.
:eyes:

[s-cubed]

20. Sometimes mommies are needed to separate the children

squabbling in the sandbox and throwing sand at each other.

[tjdee]

24. Except none of us are children.

Therefore, mommy posts are rarely heeded.

[Maddy McCall]

26. Well, it's rather one sided. If bev would quit "throwing sand"

at people who AREN'T our enemies....

[Ducks In A Row]

63. they were never our friends, and she did the right thing...

not buying into their freeper game.

[AmyCrat]

137. I wish you'd find something original to say

I'm really tired of your "everyone is a freeper" argument.

[Paligal]

96. Bev Harris needs to protect her organization, and some egos bruised

It seems that ALL this internal bickering, including Keith's and Bev's, stems from bruised egos. Everyone feels their toes have been stepped on and their efforts made light of.
I went back and read the posts Bev made about ceasing the use of her name. She clearly stated that this was for legal purposes, because she could get in trouble if people were taking action under her organization's name without her knowledge. She stated that it could cause her to lose her status as a non-profit.
Clearly this offended the people who thought they were helping her, and bickering ensued.

As far as I am concerned, ask yourselves what is most important at this point: proving you are right and Bev Harris is wrong, or putting your money on the horse most likely to win? At this point, we ALL have one goal, despite our differences, and that is to prove election fraud. Bev Harris' organization, whether you like it or not, has the most visibility in this struggle. The media, if they cover the story, will look to BBV for quotes. That is simply true. And if their are people from within the cause discrediting BBV, they will be all too happy to run that too. And then, what have you accomplished? A personal vindication? What?

[Paligal]

97. Yowza! I can't live with that typo: their=there. n/t

[Kelvin Mace]

120. If I may suggest..

It seems that ALL this internal bickering, including Keith's and Bev's, stems from bruised egos.

You need to go back and read ALL the posts. It isn't ALL about egos, it is about a pattern of behavior on Bev's part. She does this over and over again. She turns on her own allies because they don't do thing HER way. Also, Bev has a history of NOT returning phone calls or emails to very important inquiries. I know, I used to answer these inquiries for her.

I went back and read the posts Bev made about ceasing the use of her name. She clearly stated that this was for legal purposes, because she could get in trouble if people were taking action under her organization's name without her knowledge.

As I have stated before, as the person who actually coined the terms "black box voting" and "BBV" I find it interesting that Bev thinks she "owns" these terms.

As far as I am concerned, ask yourselves what is most important at this point: proving you are right and Bev Harris is wrong, or putting your money on the horse most likely to win?]

Ask yourself the question: "Which was more important to Bev, proving everyone who questioned her tactics wrong and her self right, or fighting BBV?"

That said, Bev has now burned a critically important bridge to the media due to her erratic behavior and she is NOT the "horse most likely to win".

I aways find it amusing that people who are not having their good names smeared by Bev and her proxies, who are not having to spend thousands of dollars on lawyers to defend themselves from Bev's legal threats (Bev has a free lawyer, I certainly don't) always want us to just shut up "and take one for the team"

How nice.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

196. Bruised egos my ass. Bev's ego and chicanery permitted her to steal

the intellectual property of others then wage a campaign on intimidation upon them. THEN..through her own missteps she SHITCANS the coverage...couldn't have done it better if Benedict Arnold had been awarded the throne.

[LoZoccolo]

17. We are looking for a new leader to stand up!

The old one gets in fights with people trying to help us.

[Maddy McCall]

23. Yes, the old one is no advocate.

An advocate for herself, yes. Selfless leader for the movement? No. But she's got lots of donors' money.

[milkyway]

14. A media campaign will not reverse the election. Only vote counting or

proof of criminal fraud that changed the outcome will lead to Kerry being inaugurated in January.

People have lost sight of this at DU today. Getting mainstream media coverage will not mean much. In 2000 it was wall-to-wall coverage with bush ahead only by hundreds of votes, yet we lost.

Whether Keith Olbermann covers the story or not, or any other outlet, won't create a groundswell of public opinion that overturns the election (as has happened in the Ukraine). That public outcry must first be preceded by a counting of votes that flips a state such as Ohio, or by overwhelming proof of systemic fraud.

People need to calm down and stop worrying so much about getting a few minutes of coverage by the mainstream media. It means nothing. The election will be reversed only by vote counters, or in a court of law.

I have supported both Bev and Keith in the past, and I will continue to do so. Keith has a job to do, and so does Bev. Let them get on with it to the best of their abilities.

[LoZoccolo]

19. I agree partially, but the media is important too.

I agree that it's the legal action that's most important, but think about the voter purge situation in 2000 - there was a successful lawsuit about that, but yet still very little media coverage, and I think as a result the Republicans thought they could pull it off again with very little repercussion. There's a kind-of preventative effect that comes with wide exposure.

[Carolab]

18. This affirms what I suspected yesterday

You can't choose sides. This is something that is going on between BBV and MSNBC, the details of which were not available to us yesterday and may not in fact be clear to us at present. This is why I suggested refraining from blasting either party and letting them work it out for themselves. I must say, people are a bit too quick to jump to assumptions lately and to start bashing people without enough factual data to back that up. Let this be a lesson to us all to refrain from snap judgements.

[ailsagirl]

25. Very good, Carolab

I'm still confused over why Bev got down on DU-- last I had heard she was she was keeping us apprised every step of the way.

Oh well-- I guess I'll figure it out

[Maddy McCall]

28. If you had been here last year, you would understand why some of...

us who HAVE been around, watching on the sidelines, are NOW speaking up. I have PLENTY of factual data...and I will be glad to start posting some old stuff, if people want.

[pointsoflight]

31. Deleted by pointsoflight

[tjdee]

43. Are you aware of the history with Bev Harris here?

And why are you blaming Maddy for Bev's and Keith's producers' behavior?

[pointsoflight]

54. I could care less about her history.

She could be helpful to the cause that we think is so important, no matter what her motives are, so attacking her (and getting her work buried) is not helpful.

[tjdee]

67. You missed my point I think--how do you attack a poster for

not getting Bev on MSNBC, without a)knowing why in the world a poster here speak badly about her (which is why I brought up the history), and without letting Bev assume responsibility for Bev's actions?

Sigh. Okay. I think I wasn't that clear in my original post...

[pointsoflight]

74. Sorry, I'm just unhappy about the outcome.

I'll delete the earlier post, it was over the top.

[tjdee]

77. Yeah, I think we all are unhappy about the outcome.

:pals:

[high density]

47. What in the hell are you talking about?

Bev Harris has nobody to blame for this but Bev Harris.

[crispini]

48. hahahahahah! that's rich!

Please explain how Maddy kept Bev off MSNBC? Perhaps she is one of Keith's producers in disguise?

Do tell.

[pointsoflight]

58. Deleted by pointsoflight

[high density]

62. Bev is never going to be on that program...

And that clearly has nothing to do with the comments being exchanged here at DU. If this message board had that much power, Kerry would be president-elect right now.

[pointsoflight]

72. I don't follow...

So you think both Bev and Keith were being disingenuous? After all, we know Bev was willing to go on, because she was twice scheduled to do so. And Keith says he wanted to bring her on.

Given that, if Bev never appears, I can only assume that the events of the last 24 hours determined that. Now it might not've changed things if DU had been more constructive on the issue. But we know for sure that the alternative didn't work.

[AmyCrat]

176. DU was trying to be constructive on the issue

by offering what INITIALLY started out as constructive criticism in how the situation should be handled.

Summary:
Keith said Bev was starting to look like a loon by her own actions -- posted an open invitation for her to get on the air.
We all said why, what's going on.
DU People immediately said he had no right, OR, sure, what she did was wrong (crashing retirement reception). Maybe she should do __ instead.
Some offered constructive advice on how to move forward (get in touch with Keith/his producers, straighten it out, get your butt on TV no matter what)
Bev instead chose to DEMAND retraction from Keith and call his office all angry and beligerent. Changed her message on BBV.org twice, threatened that the votergate people wanted to interview HIM.
Keith withdrew his open invitation to her.
Bev removed her notice on BBV.org about the whole thing.

Sometimes you have to swallow your pride and put your ego aside for the best of the cause. Getting into the MSM (in a positive light, instead of a negative one) would be BEST for the cause.

I agree with whoever said, the only person to blame is Bev herself. She had the opportunity to handle this in a much more coherent, organized, professional way.

[crispini]

66. Maddy, personally, sent hundreds of messages

in 24 hours to Keith?

Busy girl! Especially since she's doing her doctoral thingy soon. Wow, she's productive!

[pointsoflight]

79. Ok, ok, don't want to argue.

It's just a very important issue to me--the election issues I mean--and I think this board, which accomplishes alot when we work together, could've been more constructive. Might not've mattered. But then again it might've.

[pointsoflight]

29. Exactly, and it directly hurt our cause.

Unwillingness by so many to set aside their personal issues for the greater cause that we're all fighting for. Not smart, not smart at all.

[saracat]

190. "This board" and Bev's supporters apparently,

sent tons of nasty emails to KO and ended up getting her invitation withdrawn, apparently with her support of those actions! What was not smart is neither Bev or her people listening to the cooler heads of this board asking her to exercise restraint and make every effort to contain her ego and appear on the show. Evidently Bev, unlike some of her more intelligent former supporters, feels that she herself is far more important than the issue she is involved in!

[sendero]

112. Exactly...

... without being privy to all of the communications between both of them, how could ANYONE come to pick a side here?

People will pre-existing biases will have no problem doing so.

[fearnobush]

22. I don't trust the MSM. Keith works for the MSM. Bev does not.

I like Keith and I like his show. I can not separate my knowledge of Rove and that this type of war between Keith and Bev is a perfect Rovian storm. Psy-Opps is all about media manipulation and Rove is a master of it. Olbermann et al are the puppets - love em or hate em, the MSM talking heads are indeed used, weather knowingly or un-knowingly. BBV has exposed a lot of crap over the past few years. BBV has always fought an up hill battle with the MSM. After what happened to Palest in 2000, I take anything from the MSM with a very light grain of salt. Olbermann - NO EXCEPTIONS. Ask yourself, why is it so hard for the MSM to question the GOP's insistence on paperless voting machines (Fraud) when ALL Diebold ATM's provide paper so that you see your money was not stolen? Not even the beloved Olbermann had brought up this ridiculous and obvious point. Don't be surprised to see a retraction of all and any hints of voter fraud from his show after Dec 13th. Otherwise - Please, prove me wrong.

[tjdee]

30. Nope. Don't see Rove/third party intervention.

They're basically arguing with each other over what happened. If you're saying that a)one of Olbermann's three (?) producers is a plant, or that b)someone faked being Bev (which doesn't seem to be the case), I don't see it.

Just curious what you're seeing in this particular instance that makes you think that?

[merh]

53. But you have to wonder how the argument/disagreement/

discussion would have turned out between Bev and KO, if folks on this forum had not posted over 15 threads attacking Bev and if Bev had not been made aware of the attacks and then spent time here trying to defend herself.

Yep, I can bet she was pretty f*ckin' worked up when she did deal with KO, as he had misrepresented the facts in his blogs which added to the contempt of many that were attacking her last night.

There is a whole hell of a lot of blame to go around on this one and it is shared by KO, Bev, and many, many here who misinterpretated the facts, who were not privy to the communications and who appear to hold grudges.

There are many sides to this story and many to blame for it being so twisted and harmful, harmful to many individuals and harmful to our efforts. imho

[AntiFascist]

68. I see something much worse....

and it will probably PO KO supporters. I think Keith is resolved to the fact that the chances of overturning this election are very slim, and he doesn't want to alienate the president any more than he needs to by focusing on issues of Republican fraud. The increased ratings of his show and the resignation of other major news personalities means he has the opportunity to break into the nightly news business in a big way. I'm sure he will continue to report on items which make the news regarding lawsuits being filed and recount results, but don't expect him to probe very deeply.

[LoZoccolo]

34. Well the fanatics won this one, so it's Miller time.

Congrats!

:toast:

Thank you all for your lack of perspective and strategy, your stalwart drama-fits, your overriding black-and-white view of huge sweeping concepts like "the mainstream media", your overall paranoia, your lack of getting out much. Thanks to you, another important issue sinks into obscurity, one more issue we get to complain about and have people go "what are you talking about?"

One more time!

:toast:

[fearnobush]

40. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid.

You totally missed my point.

[LoZoccolo]

49. You're right: Rove has all kinds of nunchaku skills and sweet hookups.

And however vague, he will somehow pull the levers of influence over Bev's tape if it were to appear on Keith Olbermann's show, because when the media is mainstream it is instantly under his control. We cannot allow it to be seen on any mainstream media because...because. It is out of the question as far as I'm concerned, because Greg Palast wrote a story once and it wasn't on Keith Olbermann's show.

Actually naw I don't believe any of this.

[fearnobush]

101. Greg Palest wrote many stories based on what his BBC film

crew shot in Florida 2000 as well as the voter scrub list he obtained. Black and white thinking did not get this info nor did your ass plaque, punk ass statements made in an earlier post. It took years for people to talk about his findings in 2000 yet all the while, your prescious MSN never metioned even mentioned his name once let alone give him one minute of air time. Lets see Keith bring Palest or even Randy Rhodes on air - just once... then perhaps, I'll take the MSM in to consideration and ceed to your previous post.

[LoZoccolo]

122. I thought Palast's work on the purge was good.

I just have no idea what it has to do with deliberately burying whatever story the videotapes that Bev has could tell.

Actually, it would be pretty messed up if it ended up in a documentary, and claims were made that the mainstream media was afraid to take on the story, after all this. I don't know if it would qualify as ass plaque, but it would be pretty unfair to say they didn't want to cover it.

Plus, Palast still released the story in the mainstream media, even if it was Salon and the BBC and the Guardian.

[Cadence]

95. Well put. n/t

[InvisibleBallots]

166. Corporate Media is a specific thing, not a "sweeping concept"

Keith Olberman is an employee of MSNBC. MSNBC is a corporation that produces media, hence the Corporate Media. Not a sweeping concept at all, but a very specific one.

[LoZoccolo]

178. Oh you know what I'm talking about.

This idea that the corporate media can never report anything truthfully ever because they're owned by a corporation. Funny we didn't hear that during the Dan Rather thing.

[saracat]

37. Bs It is obvious Bev has a history of being disagreeable and she tried to

make Olberman her latest victim. Sorry this dog won't hunt. The only thing Rovian about this is Bev's ego. One of her people is even spouting that she didn't need Olberman, he needs her. I give up this is too stupid for words. And you can't accomplish anything without MSM even if you don't like them. That is reality folks.If it wasn't on TV it didn't happen. And Bev just screwed the pooch and is TV poison. And if Olberman retracts anything she will have given him the excuse to do so. End of story.

[high density]

38. OK, I'll post this speech for a fourth time

Olbermann is not a part of a psy-ops campaign. He refused to keep dishing out bullcrap about Monica Lewinsky in the late 1990s, so I have no reason to believe that he has suddenly put aside his ethics just to tarnish Bev Harris.

Please read this: http://www.news.cornell.edu/campus/Olbermann_speech.html

It's long, but I think it shows who Keith Olbermann really is.

[rodeodance]

107. thanks --it is helpful

[Ducks In A Row]

65. Keith is good at the fluffy stories. He never really had the guts for..

the real stories

[fearnobush]

102. Thanks for your honesty.

[pointsoflight]

27. There might've been a different outcome if cooler heads prevailed...

...here on DU during the last 36 hours. Had Bev and Keith received polite e-mails asking them to please put aside the miscommunications, and work together for the greater cause, who knows, it might've worked. Many cooler heads here pleaded and pleaded with people to take this approach. Instead, some people would not set aside their own personal opinions for the greater cause, and sent inflamatory e-mails to both of them (depending on who's side they took), likely driving the wedge between them even deeper. It's only human nature that if Bev gets e-mails ripping on her and supporting Keith, and vice versa, that'll make them less interested in working together.

[americanstranger]

33. I know I said I was out, but I gotta respond here.

Don't blame the people of DU for what was obviously Bev Harris' screwup.

I wans't belligerent and threatening to Keith Olbermann's staff. I didn't start the day off with a demand for an apology, and I didn't alienate a man with an hour-long daily cable show who was willing to help. And neither did anyone else here.

One person, and one person only, is responsible for the current situation. And you know who it is.

-as

[pointsoflight]

35. Many people here sent brutal e-mails to Bev BEFORE her post this a.m.

We know that to be true, because some people even posted their nasty e-mails here.

That undoubtedly affected her tone. If you don't get that, you don't understand human nature.

[saracat]

42. Because they probably knew her. Oh, stop already. What is she a puppet,

manipulated by the emotions of DU? Please. One one hand ,she is a strong independent leader, and now a puppet.DU made her do it. Sheesh. I'm done.

[pointsoflight]

81. I'm not saying that...just saying what happened here was not constructive.

[saracat]

39. Amen

[tjdee]

36. So now it's DU's fault?

Come on. They need "polite emails" to do the right thing?

I agree that there are some hotheads (I am just reading of all of this now)... but I'm sure that both Bev and Keith are past being *too* affected by what random faceless people have to say, particularly if those people are ranting and raving.

THEIR cooler heads should have prevailed. And those of the people they know who surround them.

This isn't about them, or us. It's about our elections.

[pointsoflight]

45. "This isn't about them, or us. It's about our elections."

Your quote is EXACTLY right. So why, then, has this sited been flooded with literally THOUSANDS of posts over the last 36 hours ripping on one or both of them? And instead of working in a constructive way to make sure Bev and Keith hook up, why did a number of people do the very destructive thing and send nasty e-mails to them.

Yesterday, BEFORE all of this blew up today, I was calling again and again for cooler heads and a better approach for the betterment of our cause. People said I was wrong and that if we want Bev to turn over the tapes and Keith to bring her on the show, the best strategy would be to force the issue. Well that worked wonders didn't it? We'll never know if my strategy would've worked or not, but we now know that the alternative failed.

[tjdee]

56. I don't know about nasty emails, but I don't disagree about the cooler

heads.

Generally, I think DUers don't send people emails like "@#$**$ YOU, put Bev on the show you coward punk!!" I'm sure some do, though. And I know both of them read their emails personally.

Would a thoughtful, cooler direction have been preferred? Probably.

But Bev and Keith should have not let the peanut gallery make the decisions for them. Or even weighed the peanut gallery's opinions very much. They are bright people who shouldn't have needed US to do anything.

[pointsoflight]

59. I agree, and I'll hold out hope that they change their minds.

[LoZoccolo]

41. Uh, not really.

It was more like Keith trying to explain to everyone why it was a waste of time to keep spamming him with requests to have Bev on, which did involve everyone, and he did wait a while before coming out with it.

[cry baby]

44. Sorry, but you can't blame Duers for their passion

If this story falls flat, it's certainly not DU at fault. This has been a spirited conversation and I thought the whole point of this place (DU) was to be able to freely express opinions.

[pointsoflight]

51. Of course its about expressing opinions. BUT...

...zipping off nasty e-mails to people who are on our side and could help our cause....that's not just expressing opinions, that's taking an active but destructive role.

I have no problem with anyone who offered their opinion here. I do have problems with those who felt the need to vent directly to Bev or Keith, and couldn't put aside their personal opinions long enough to see that it wasn't help to the cause we're fighting for.

[cry baby]

60. I've been so busy trying to keep up

with all these threads and what has been said, I haven't had time to write any emails. I really think most of our discussion has been between us at DU.

[pointsoflight]

64. Well, some people posted the nasty e-mails they sent.

Maybe it was a minority of people who did that, but both Bev and Keith do read their e-mails regularly and pay attention to them.

[cry baby]

71. I am sorry for that...

I hope Bev doesn't get distracted for long. We really need for her to keep her eye on the prize.

[crispini]

52. Oh, please. Who sent inflammatory emails to anyone?

Please prove it.

[pointsoflight]

83. There are literally thousands of messages on the Bev/Keith topic.

I'm not going to waste my time searching all of them for the one's with the e-mails. I'm sure others can verify that they saw them, too.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[high density]

69. Keith has obviously had a lot of interest in this issue since the election

It's been clear on his shows and his blog entries. What show are you watching? I just know that yelling and screaming at Keith Olbermann's crew is not going to help further BBV's cause.

[crispini]

73. Oh, yawn. Keith already explained why.

And it was a good reason.

[Snivi Yllom]

128. what does anyone here have to do with BH harassing KO's producer?

The one to blame for her own screw up is BH.

[BringEmOn]

78. Bev Harris on Mike Webb on 710 KIRO in Seattle at 10:30 PST

http://www.mikewebb.org/blog_frame.htm

10:30 - Bev Harris of BlackBoxVoter.Org appears from Florida discussing the consequences and benefits of a Washington state recount on the Governor's race.

Listen:

http://stream.mikewebb.org:8000/listen.pls

[regularjoe]

80. Thanks! n/t

[Ronbrynaert]

82. Don't Put Too Much Faith In An Ex-ESPN Sportcaster!!

The fact that Olbermann believes Gerald Posner is "the most respected authority" on the events of 9/11...should raise a red flag. The Posners are right-wing neo-cons and I don't believe anything either one of them has to say.

Then there's the fact that every bloggerman entry contains derisive words such as conspiracy and tin-foil etc. He is just reinforcing those stereotypes.

Then there's the fact that he keeps harping on the Olbermann was fired rumour. I don't know what blogs he surfs at...but I haven't seen that in too many places. It seems to originate from a letter that the actor Peter Coyote may have written (or not) on a yahoo group.

Perhaps Keith is the votergate version of Dick Armey...who claimed to be against invading Iraq...until he went along with the rest of his party and voted in favor of the resolution to give Bush the authority.

But better journalists are starting to come around a little bit like David Corn, for instance.


On the other hand, I appreciate everything Bev is doing...but I believe that the numerous examples of overt GOP acts of vote suppression are the main Votegate issues that we should be talking about. We're never going to prove that black box voting is responsible for fraud...although we do need paper verification...suppression should be our main focus.

Suppression in terms of using antiquated voting machines in urban areas with large amounts of Democrats and minorities, polling machines being removed from precincts and not used even though lines were long in those same urban areas, posters and emails that tell people the election is to be held on a later date, the caging lists that Greg Palast has written about, the fact that so many election officials have ties to the religious right and the Bush/Cheney campaign, the fact that recounts and number adjustments from machine "errors" always favor the Democrats in the race, the number of GOP challengers, the use of police and homeland security and Ashcroft's bible thumping squad to guard polling places.

All this we can prove. Most of these actions were illegal.

By all means, continue to talk about Bev Harris and electronic voting...because it's part of the problem...but the solution lies in the vote suppression realm.

Peace...

Check out my project "50 States Mislead Their Voters" at http://whyareweback.blogspot.com and http://watchingthewatchers.org .

[JohnnyCougar]

89. Ok, knock it off

I'm so sick of this bullshit.

I want to post a poll, but the mods will probably lock it. Who has been exposed as having a short temper and hurting those trying to help the cause in the past: Bev Harris of Keith Olbermann?

[SomthingsGotaGive]

94. I totally agree with you.

Keith does work for GE.
Bev's and Andy do have DUBIOUS Far-Right connections.

I have always thought, and expressed, with little success that BBV was a smokescreen designed to obscure, confuse, or dilute the voter fraud movement.

I have been screaming ....

"Ask Black people how Bush stole the election"


But within seconds I get told that Black votes always get stolen, unfortunately, and it was going to be hard to over turn an election based on "Standard" voter suppression.

[regularjoe]

93. I'm listening and so far there is no sign of Bev. n/t

[crispini]

85. OK, squids. I'm off to bed.

I'm going to do my best to avoid batting this shiny bauble around tomorrow. I probably won't be able to resist, because I LOVE a good fight, but if you don't see me here, you'll know I'm being a goooooood girl. Anyway.

Final thoughts:

Bev devotees, please consider. WHY is there both a bbv.ORG as well as a bbv.COM? You might also go wandering through the DU archives.

And, Keith? still available to bear your children. You've got my email. Anytime. :evilgrin:

[LoZoccolo]

87. Why was there a split between blackboxvoting.org and blackboxvoting.com?

Now I'm curious.

The guy that runs .com seems pretty civil.

[Kelvin Mace]

92. Thank you

I try to be. The split is long and involved but basically is a rehash of what just happend with KO. I became the enemy.

Send me an PM and I'll send you some more details.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[LoZoccolo]

157. Yeah see, I'd see her comments about .com and then I'd go there...

...and be like "what's her problem?" Plus you'd have more news stories.

[jamboi]

187. Sad for the split.Strong leaders are often strong personalities that clash

and there's often an underlying tragic side to it all.Well, if you think about all the pressure that is on everyone its not too suprising that there's some wacky behavior along the way. Sad to hear about it though and infighting doesn't progress the cause. Thank you for your service (isn't it also you who's behind DU itself?)

[troubleinwinter]

192. NO. Two DIFFERENT David Allens.

[Kelvin Mace]

197. Nope, another guy.

A common question.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[DoveTurnedHawk]

90. There's an Old Saying: Never Get in a Fight With Someone Who Buys Ink

by the barrel.

This reminds me of when McCain flew off the handle at Michael Reagan in 2000 and blew any chance of getting his endorsement. Sure, maybe McCain felt better afterwards, but getting that endorsement sure would've helped his campaign.

Same thing here. Regardless of the particulars of the spat (and based on Bev's unwisely combative response, my guess is that Olbermann's version is probably correct), Bev is going to be on the losing end of it. Which is too bad, since I think having her work spotlighted on Countdown would've been very helpful.

DTH

[JohnnyCougar]

91. POLL: Who threw a tantrum at people who were only helping: Bev or Keith?

Which one threw a temper tantrum and was belligerently rude to people who were only trying to help when things were not going just her way?

Which one has failed to follow through on promises of proof coming out weeks ago?

Which one asks for donations and won't even say how much she is raking in?

Which one has a history of selling penis-sized Clinton cigars mocking his impeachment?

[Guava Jelly]

103. I guess Saint BEV on all 4

I just wonder if any of these Bev fawners are on bevs payroll

[Cooley Hurd]

106. Okay... I'll bite...

...only because I've not heard the story about the cigars. Can you tell me the story behind it?:shrug:

[robbedvoter]

129. Once upon a time bev was making a living pushing a different "hot

button". her old site was accessed via the way back machine and you can enjoy the old Bev here:
http://web.archive.org/web/19991112034903/http://www.talion.com/cigar.htm

[Dragonfli]

109. I didn't get the memo

I was away for a while and it seems that my brother in law was right (and is on the right by the way)

The fight IS over.
The People at DU are more concerned with in-fighting and posting a Huge Series of threads attacking each other than anything else these days.

I guess that only leaves the Greens.


It's been swell.
You all go back to fighting and calling each other names.

I have to get to Ohio.

I just hate to admit I'm wrong to an idiot with an IQ on par with his shoe size.

The freepers you keep talking about have done their work well.
No need for them to shut down the "internets" you guys are using it to their ends.

How many threads are there about Bev. And K?
Could you maybe try posting as much about the loss of democracy?
Just a thought.

I will check back Monday to see the juicy flames and wonder what the hell happened to the fight against SHRUB.

[demodonkey]

111. I agree. We should be fighting for Democracy, not each other.

There are a lot of people working on this issue.
Nobody has to work with, watch, or give money to anybody they don't believe in.

There are numerous groups working to bring the problems to light. Find one you believe in and volunteer, or give a little cash if you can.

As the word gets out into MSM, we need to encourage those reporters who cover it, That means both support their efforts and also constructive -- repeat constructive -- criticism and questions.

This weekend there is the big March in Columbus OH; if people can get there they should DO IT. (I am so sorry I can't go there myself, but at least I am trying to help by spreading the word.) I have volunteered to take off and poll watch for any recounts, however, if they need me. There will be other marches, and other places to volunteer. If nothing else, you can put up a few posters in the local laundromat.

The point is -- everybody should do SOMETHING, every day, even if it is only talk to one person and educate them about the problems in our voting!
Not just come on DU and fight each other.
PLEASE. Democracy is at stake here.

[Swamp Rat]

113. Look on the bright side of life, Brian.

There are some arguments but that's okay. Cooler heads will prevail. We will get to the bottom of this. :)

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Dragonfli]

114. Thanks Swamp Rat

I will start ignoring the fighting.
I apreciate your post and your welcome.
Others here have implied that I'm stupid and useless for not joining in the fray.
I just want to fight for liberty and have no interest in distractions to that.
I am hoping to make a difference in Ohio and will continue looking for threads about this weekend.
I hope to go there but locally (Bufalo NY) there doesn't seem to be anyone but me interested.
My brother in law laughed at me and showed me this thread when I mention DU.
Then he showed me an movie about 911 that made bush seem like jesus.

I am alone here in a democratic city of morons.
He had great amo against me when he claimed only repubs can "get it together" in a common goal.
It's hard to refute when I see so much flaming.

[Chimpanzee]

115. I agree

Lets move on - there are much bigger fish to fry, namely George Walleye Bush.

[senseandsensibility]

117. Words of wisdom

indeed. Thanks! Have we forgotten who the enemy is?

[Swamp Rat]

116. Please, for me, tell your brother thank you for showing you this thread.

To the afflicted, Bush IS Jesus. Many we will not be able to reach, but if we communicate with those around us, the truth will get out and partisan boundaries will dissipate.

We are all brothers and sisters living in America.:grouphug:

America has been attacked from within and we are all victims, to some extent, of the brainwashing - a lifetime of it. Sometimes I get in heated arguments with my fellow citizen, but I am very specific about my point. If you support war, go enlist today.

I am against killing for any reason, so my personal call is to stop war... and bring my family home.

[The Flaming Red Head]

118. Bev had 1 vote & we're talking millions of votes (it’s not about her)

It’s about the stolen election. It’s about suppression, fraud, and illegal activities connected to this election. It’s never good to let one person hijack a popular movement.

[righteous1]

119. When you pray at the alter of demagouge's

you are putting your soul in the hands of a salesman

[robbedvoter]

130. Beautifully said. Let's stay with the truth, not personalities.

[Barbara917]

127. Why did Harris remove

...the post about her dispute with Olbermann's reporting from the www.blackboxvoting.org website?

Yesterday I read a fairly detailed list of inaccuracies in Olbermann's reporting and now today it is gone? Is the removal of this indication of retraction?

[Snivi Yllom]

131. OMG She did delete her rants against Olberman!

What a cowardly hiding of the truth. She spews a hissy fit, and then when she finds out the people she has been counting on spiritually and financially don't like it, she burns it to ashes down the memory hole?

Well, this one is for those who did not get a chance to see BBV imploding. Here are BOTH BBV statements that BH is now hiding:

BBV's message to KO today has been edited and the language changed.

the first statement:

Black Box Voting demands retraction from Keith Olberman. We have given him the option to correct his factually flawed editorial by having Bev Harris come the on his show (contrary to his assertions, neither he nor his staff have EVER asked Harris to show anyone the Volusia County tapes. (One Olberman's producers did ask Harris to appear on the Countdown show, twice, both times BEFORE Harris came to Florida or uncovered Volusia County irregulaties. In both cases, after Harris had cleared her schedule to appear, right before the show, Olberman's producers canceled the appearance without explanation. Harris has always agreed to go on Olberman's show, and Olberman is the one who canceled, not Harris. The Volusia County tapes were showed to CNN cameramen, but Harris has never been asked to show any Volusia County materials to Olberman, MSNBC producers, NBC producers, CNBC producers, or anyone else with that TV network or its affiliates.

Also contrary to Olberman's claims, Harris is not making a documentary, but the makers of the Votergate documentary, an independent team who captured the Volusia County trash incident on film, are eager to interview Keith Olberman on camera to ask him why he produced this report.


later the statement was revised and released changing some of her claims:

Black Box Voting requests retraction from Keith Olberman, along with an explanation of why MSNBC alleged such an untruth. We have given Olberman the opportunity to correct his factually flawed editorial by having Bev Harris appear on his show. Contrary to Olberman's assertions, neither he nor his staff have EVER asked Harris to show anyone the Volusia County tapes. They have not asked Harris to come on the show since November 8. Harris did not come to Florida until November 12. Olberman's producers had asked Harris to appear on the Countdown show twice, on Nov. 5 and Nov. 8. Each time, after Harris cleared her schedule to appear and shortly before the show, Olberman's producers canceled the appearance without explanation. Harris showed the Volusia County tapes to CNN cameramen, but Harris has never been asked to show any Volusia County materials to any MSNBC producers, or NBC producers. The NBC local affiliate in Palm Beach County asked for the LePore videotape, which Harris promptly provided. The tapes, when showed without editing, show clearly that Olberman's report was not accurate about the LePore incident either. An edited version of the LePore tape was aired on both Orlando and Palm Beach County NBC affiliates last night.

Also contrary to Olberman's claims, Harris is not making a documentary, but the makers of the Votergate documentary, an independent team who captured the Volusia County trash incident on film, are eager to interview Keith Olberman on camera to ask him why he produced this report.

[Barbara917]

135. Are you and I reading the same thing?

"What a coward. She spews a hissy fit, and then when she finds out the people she has been counting on spiritually and financially don't like it, she burns it to ashes down the memory hole?"

Yes. Thank you. That is the post I am referring to. But are we reading the same words? I wouldn't characterize it as a hissy fit. It looks to me like a rational list of differences she has with Olbermann's reporting. Since her's is the first person account and Olbermann is relying on information supplied him by staff I tend to give her version more weight. I haven't seen any reason to believe her version is wrong or that she is lying.

I asked an honest question about why it was removed. You must be aware of somthing else that I am not because I don't understand how one can draw the conclusions you have from the removal of the two posts.

I would hope that it is an indication that she is attempting to get her evidence about Volusia County election fraud/irregularities/improprieties out and that her dispute with Olbermann about what appears to be a communication problem is being put aside for the bigger picture.

What purpose does it serve to call Harris a coward or characterize her correction of Olbermann's reporting a hissy fit? Do you have evidence that her version is false and Olbermann has it right?

[Kelvin Mace]

139. The conclusion come from past experience

I have dealt with Bev personally for two years. KO's explanation of issues dovetails with my own experiences with Bev and with many other people's.

Also, Bev has a history of "altering the record", a habit she got into here when here words came back to discredit her.

I wouldn't call Bev a coward. Bev is just being Bev.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Snivi Yllom]

144. I changed my wording

I now refer to the act as a "cowardly hiding of the truth" and not her as a coward.

[Kelvin Mace]

132. I noticed that too

She has lost that fight and is now trying to pretend it didn't happen. History has again been erased/re-written by Bev.

If I may point something out. Bev does not archive her news. Perhaps she now realizes from her experiences here at DU that her words often come back to discredit her and thus does not want them around for that use.

She was caught yesterday changing the original post about KO, softening the harsh language. Now she eliminated it entirely.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Jersey Devil]

133. Forget archives, I can't even get to the site

It appears to be down again. Is there such a thing as a self inflicted DOS attack? Would they call it "cybercide"?

[robbedvoter]

136. It's hereditary. Ol' talion.com bought the farm that way

Only parts were exhumed, such as this entertaining one:
http://web.archive.org/web/19991112034903/http://www.talion.com/cigar.htm
The parts about "unbezzling a fortune" by identifying/pressing hot button issues is no longer there - but otherwise lives on.

[Kelvin Mace]

138. The site went down

in early November when the exceeded their bandwidth usage for the month and Bev claimed the site was hacked.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Snivi Yllom]

134. Anyone else see the irony?

That a website like BBV that is dedicated to the issue of hacking votes, or editing the will of the people, would edit its own frontpage comments in an effort to make readers think certain comments never existed.

[AmyCrat]

140. I made a statement to this effect yesterday

...that if you are fighting the good fight, and it's about honesty and transparency, you better do your best to be honest and transparent yourself.

No one is perfect. I stick by what I've always said -- Bev has done good work. But she needs to learn to play the PR game or stay out of the frying pan if she can't take the heat.

[robbedvoter]

142. But at first she made only wee bit edits, so stop saying that!:

30. I did the edits, and even I don't see what facts were changed
I changed "demand" to "request" -- more polite -- and I edited out some typos and corrected the spelling on Keith's last name. I provided dates, had to go look them up.
What exactly was changed?
I clarified the dates and clarified the Volusia County materials from the Palm Beach materials (which WERE provided, by the way!). I omitted the "NBC, CNBC, MSNBC" business about Volusia because, while true, I've never been clear on how related those entities are.
Please point me to any substantive changes.
Bev 
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2777690

[AmyCrat]

143. it's all now gone completely

nothing about it on BBV anymore at all. And honestly, this should have been thought out AHEAD of time, not "drafted" online for all to see. This is the problem. Immediate emotional reaction without trying to resolve it professionally first. If you want to play the game, play it smart.

[Jersey Devil]

145. Bev is online now in GD posting

She just answered a post less than 5 minutes ago.

[Snivi Yllom]

152. and BH is deflecting a very strong post to her here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2781471#2782191

[Walt Starr]

156. Pretty lame response, IMO

Deflection was a good word for how it was handled.

[carolinalady]

161. I can not believe how she blew off that meeting with the fellow

DU'er. Now we have another incident of who is speaking the truth? I am really starting to see a pattern with this woman and I don't like what I am seeing. One thing I will say to those of you fervently hoping that Bev will see her flaws and take action to improve her image. It's not going to happen. First she has to admit she has flaws but from what I have seen the last two days. She will not. She would rather twist words and make denials before she ever admits that she is wrong. I've worked with some people like that and no matter what you have as evidence they NEVER admit they are wrong. Very frustrating to accept about people--especially those that one has high expectations of.

[Kelvin Mace]

167. Oh, I *LOVE* this quote

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2782313&mesg_id=2782337&page=

I like DU because it helps vet out arguments.

I often transport info from here to the other location, after it is criticized. I get more forceful critiques from DU members than from BBV members, who tend to be mostly supportive all the time.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Walt Starr]

170. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

;)

Drama drama drama, SOMETHING BIG IS ABOUT TO BE RELEASED.

Release comes and what is it? Wow, Microsoft products can be hacked and these folks use Microsoft products.

Well, no duh! Microsoft has a monopoly on the computer software industry so it is the most hacked software in the world! Stating the obvious is not proof of voter fraud, nor does it suggest voter fraud occurred!

The more I see, the more skeptical I become over motivations and actual evidence.

[Snivi Yllom]

148. this is what I wrote back

legal language is very precise

Being polite has nothing to do with it. There was an implied threat using the language "demands retraction" and "given him the option". The statement was edited to also say "MSNBC alleged such an untruth". That's a fancy was of saying 'MSNBC lied'.

The additional claim that footage of the Lapore incident was in fact shown to NBC affiliates was added.

[Cocoa]

162. scrubbing is one of many of Bev's red flags

she did it during one of my DU exchanges with her, over the silliest thing.

[Walt Starr]

141. Olberman updated his blog

Don't ever expect to see Ms. Harris on Countdown.

[ohio_liberal]

147. If what's written on his blog is true....

Only today did she even get back in touch with us, and was so belligerent, threatening, and demanding, that we have chosen to withdraw our invitation to her to appear, or to have videotape of her efforts played, on Countdown.

If this is true, then IMO it's the most stunningly chuckleheaded act imaginable. She has alienated the one person on TV who gives the BBV issue the notice it deserves.

[Walt Starr]

151. You can pretty much write off any of Ms. Harris' work ever going

mainstream.

She'll not get a hearing via the MSM. Olberman was her only shot and that's been blown.

[AmyCrat]

153. I think this is a LITTLE extreme...

While I agree with you that right now, obviously, KO isn't going to put her on the air based on all that's transpired in the last 48 hours. I don't necessarily think that translates into her never getting into the MSM at all though.

I think if she hired a good PR person, and really focused on a pointed, steady, consistent message, one that is NEVER surrounded by childish (hate to use that word) behavior, she could have the chance of getting into the MSM. Talking points, press releases, polish up the look of the website, get some printed material going, and KEEP your MOUTH SHUT when you know you're just going to explode into a temper tantrum, it could all help.

[Walt Starr]

154. My experience is leopards rarely change any spots

and there is a lot of history in this area.

The MSM doesn't like this and won't give somebody who conducts themselves in this manner a venue.

[AmyCrat]

155. Agree with ya...

but I can still remain somewhat hopeful that all of this criticism will have SOME effect on the BBV powers-that-be. A leopard cannot change it's spots, but maybe it's smarter to be more chameleon-esque :)

[righteous1]

174. She's toast, blew her one big chance at mainstream exposure.

In the world of big media you VERY rarely ever get a second chance

[Walt Starr]

175. BINGO

Even if she actually did uncover evidencec that points to fraud, it'll never be aired now.

She blew it BIG TIME.

[LoZoccolo]

180. I think you're right there.

They probably scramble quite a bit to organize things every day and get the best guests they can get for their limited amount of airtime, and if one source is gonna cost them time and frustration I can see how they'd cut their losses and start going elsewhere.

I imagine Bev was one of the best, but I could see why they'd start thinking it just wasn't worth it. I thought about this angle: the limited contact they had with her ended up with her dissing him and threatening to sue for libel. Why wouldn't they avoid her?

[Kelvin Mace]

163. Bev will never surrender power

to someone else, especially another PR person. What you saw happen with KO will happen sooner or later to even folks like Randi and Mike Malloy, because at some point they are going to ask "what gives" and she'll go off on them like she did KO.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[EFerrari]

160. Notice how the update ends?

Leaving the BV debacle aside for a minute:

"These are my people — they are running professional risks I can’t begin to describe — and I will stand up for them, first, last, and always."

Now, what "professional risks" is he talking about? Obviously, there's no risk in banning Harris. What are they risking? This might be the most telling piece of evidence we have of a "media lockdown" - and Olbermann seems to be contradicting himself on this issue.

[AmyCrat]

165. that raise an eyebrow from me too n/t

[Walt Starr]

168. They run the risk of looking like idiots and losing credibility

by buying into what Ms. Harris sells willy nilly. This would cost them thier chosen career for the rest of their lives, losing their livelihood and everything they have built for themselves. In essence, they risk everything.

Look at what happened to Rather for an accurate portrayal of the risks they are taking.

[EFerrari]

179. I thought that those risks

were part n parcel of being in the journalism business?

[LoZoccolo]

194. So is getting shot if you're a soldier.

That doesn't mean you don't avoid it, or that you don't protect your fellow soldiers or troops under your command.

[Snivi Yllom]

181. professional risks

like Dan Rather being forced to retire for using bad sources

[IndyPriest]

146. One newbie's take

Well this has certainly been fun, in a spook house sort of way. I've not seen so many ghosts and skeletons flopping around since I was a kid. And lots of costumes and masks for color.

FWIW, here's the short version of the history as it seems to this newbie and an analogy that might be useful. The history: people committed to the same cause, but with different personalities and strategies, threw some punches at each other months ago. Scabs formed, but wounds didn't heal. Sides formed but could remain (mainly) civil. The heat got turned WAY up, though, as deadlines (some internal to individuals, some external) have approached. Anxiety has gone sky high as goals (some individual, some external) continue to swing between seeming to be now closer, now further, now reachable, now impossible. The group's old wounds resurface, hot words are exchanged, judgments are made about who's helping, who's not, and what constitutes helping and not. The group's attention rivets on this sorting out.

What gets us out of this infocusing attention?

Perspective can help. An analogy I've been thinking about: In the hot days of the civil rights movement, very similar things happened in a very similar context. Those fighting a common foe sometimes had a hard time with each other. Accusations of loyalty and commitment flew, strategies were challeged, lots of verbal pushing and shoving. What held the group(s) together was the repeated call to keep eyes focused on the ball -- and the reminder that in a pitched engagement between a greased political Machine and a bunch of street fighters, ALL strategies ultimately help, ALL personality types ultimately help. For better or for worse, we're not an NFL team, well financed, well coached, well staffed. ANYONE, on this blog or anywhere else, who has the same hope is on the team.

So, as a newbie, I say: thanks to Bev AND to Maddy and Dave. Thanks to iam AND to tia AND to m berst AND to patsy AND to demobabe AND to jamboi AND to pointsoflight AND to carolab AND to revcheesehead AND to ko AND to yellowdog AND to merh AND to texas something or other... Oh, you get the idea.

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AmyCrat]

150. Like I said to you in another post...

You won't win over any hearts or minds with belligerent language -- or by dissing the one MSM journalist who seems to be TRYING to get this story out.

Defend BBV all you want -- you should. Bev has done good work. It doesn't change the fact that she needs to work on her PR presentation. That point cannot be made enough. ANYONE who is going to fight this battle needs to be "Rove-Like" to win it... and getting all emotional, having hissy fits, and egotistical grand-standing isn't the way to do it.

[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

159. Nader did tons more than that...

...but it doesn't mean he couldn't succeed in putting his efforts back by doing something unwise later. Accomplishing a lot is not a ticket for making big missteps without criticism from your supporters (and if we weren't supporters in one way or another, we wouldn't be disappointed).

[LoZoccolo]

164. Moving on - are FOIA requests also public knowledge?

Maybe we could retrieve all the FOIA requests so that another organization like Election Protection would have access to all the records that Bev is getting.

[gorbal]

169. I can't wait to see how the lawsuit turns out

I keep trying to think of a reason why the signed count was different from what was turned into the state besides fraud. Could it have been the provisional ballots or some found ballots that had been lost?

Of course, if they don't find fraud in Volusia cunty, that does not mean there wasn't fraud.

If fraud is proven, I sense a wave of appologies headed in Bev's directino. So I might halt my judgement of her if I were you guys.

[Walt Starr]

171. If I were to put money on this

I'd say odds are 1,000,000 to 1 that no fraud will ever be found.

[crispini]

172. Hm, where'd tbuddha go?

Ooooo.... tombstoned.

Well now.

That's interesting, isn't it?

OK, not lookin at this thread ANY MORE TODAY. No! More!

[ohio_liberal]

173. Really?

I wonder why?

[LoZoccolo]

177. ATTN EVERYBODY! Every time you read this thread...

...you have to read another thread in this forum! That should keep us balanced in our efforts!

(See that's just an excuse for us to keep hanging around here. :) )

[Snivi Yllom]

182. Bev got tombstoned also

Now that's interesting.

[hlthe2b]

185. As a long time DUer who has tried very hard to stay on the fence....

during this whole episode (realizing there is always some "truth" to be found on multiple sides),

THIS SADDENS ME....

Will we ever be told what led to the decision to ban Bev?

[crispini]

191. Probably not.

Ask the Admins if they will make a statement. It's a tough call, they don't want to openly bash people but at the same time they need to do what they think they need to do to protect this place.

[crispini]

188. Wow.

So she did. Wonder what happened between this morning's posts and now.

[AmyCrat]

189. news to me... wow. n/t

[Snivi Yllom]

193. just a hunch

My guess is she gave the same treatment to the admins that she gave to Keith Olberman's staff. I could be wrong of course, but......

[DTinAZ]

195. sure looks that way....

...but how do you know for sure that someone has been tombstoned? (Disclaimer: I'm obviously a newbie, so I apologize if this is a stupid Q) I notice that both of her recent topics in the GD forum have been locked...is that the only clue we have?

[ohio_liberal]

198. Click on the profile "head"

next to your name. If a user is tombstoned, there is a tombstone image in your profile.

[Kelvin Mace]

199. Click on the profile icon of their post

In Bev's case:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=121879

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[texpatriot2004]

184. What's new with BH and KO today 12/03/04? Are they still

in a pissing contest?

[F.Gordon]

186. And so the Book is closed

You don't win elections on the Internet and you certainly don't prove "fraud" on the internet. It's the GAO report and the Congressional Hearings that we need to shine the sun on the problems of our election system. To focus the public eye on what is really important. Not donating to 30 different "Fraud Investigation" Internet groups and not signing some stupid ass Internet petition.

Oh, and if you didn't donate to the Washington recount .... why the hell not!!!

If you don't get it by now, you never will. I've read UFO cases that were better documented than some of the crap I've read here at DU, and as for Bev.... well, my personal "fast food" take is that her activities have nothing to do with proving fraud. All of you that have been sucked into this cult-like mentality need to take a good look at yourself. Re-evaluate what has gone on and if you really want to see election reform in this country focus on those things that will see real results.

Peace.

[EarlG]

200. Please see this thread for our statement

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x108750