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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:26 AM
Original message
Activisms-Jeff Fisher-CyberNET scam revealed
Edited on Sun Dec-05-04 04:38 AM by jamboi
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:31 AM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:32 AM
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Why would you be cut off?
You ain't Bev.
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
23. A phoenix has risen from its own ashes...if you get my drift. n/t
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
165. I'm not 100% sure, but it might have been because as
"Bozos for Bush" this person posted some very rude and sarcastic replies in threads. I'm hoping his manners have improved with his mystical rebirth as a Phoenix.
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SomthingsGotaGive Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Hey Bozo do what is suggested post a link where you WILL fill us all in.
thanks
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:52 AM
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
22. I can't PM you
How do we get in touch. I can get in touch with cgcs people.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:54 AM
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
120. curious
can't do pms... and post at the same time... curious.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:41 AM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:42 AM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:44 AM
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Alizaryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. Bozos I kinda know where you are coming from since I have
been following the "investigation" here and on BBV. Much of the company related info is correct but I had a few specific questions about info put out there w/o documentation and have been unable to get an answer. Some of the facts, the important links that are made between things I have not been able to duplicate.

I think a great service would be for someone like Jam to do a question session with auditor (or whatever the name is) like he did with Wayne and we can get things straightened out and our questions answered once and for all. We need to all get on the same page.

(I need to go to bed, sorry for the rambling)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:56 AM
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geo Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
20. JOHN!!
Edited on Sun Dec-05-04 04:55 AM by geo
Nice to see you back. OMG! You busted it wide open!!!!!!!!!!! :) -G
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:58 AM
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #30
133. Ummmm, don't you think there is one in particular to whom you especially
owe an apology?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:51 AM
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geo Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. PayPal can shut him down and work with Madsen....
:) -G
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:00 AM
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31. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:33 AM
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #56
65. Hmmm... that thing from "Andy" is written in a very hokey way IMO. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:54 AM
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eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
94. Auditors material migrated to Jeff Fisher
Edited on Sun Dec-05-04 07:27 AM by eomer
Self edit - Removed - posted in wrong place
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
98. 'Bozos for Bush' - are you also 'freedom for all' at BBV.org?
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geo Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #98
111. answer from John...
Hi djmaddox1,

This is like a bad game of telephone, huh? :)

John asked me to pass on that he is not "freedom for all" at BBV.

:) -G
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #111
113. tag - you're it! LOL
TY geo, & tell him I'm sure glad to hear he's not 'freedom for all' - freedom didn't seem to think too highly of DU'ers.

I gotta stop lurking over there, gives me a bad case of the wee_willies_don't_know_who_to_trusts!
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
119. Madsen writing article right now! Aware of disinfo campaign.
Edited on Sun Dec-05-04 01:53 PM by jamboi
Madsen writes this morning:
"I am well aware of much of this disinformation campaign and why it is being done-- the stakes are very high as you will see when this article comes out later today -- I am half way through writing it -- everything will be very clear when it is read.

wayne"
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. Here's an idea: please post an external link where you'll post in case U
get cut off.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:35 AM
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8. Deleted message
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
46. Did you delete this SoonToBePhoenix? n/t
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. Please repost the external link you want to use. Thanks. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #46
80. Deleted message
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illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:32 AM
Response to Original message
3. ok I'm lost
Why can't I find this besides general stupidity?
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Find what? Don't understand your question. Plz clarify. n/t
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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I suggest you edit a link or more detail into your originating post.
Edited on Sun Dec-05-04 04:35 AM by Wonk
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Deleted message
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. I'm not following that note.Don't know what CMCS and don't see a link. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Deleted message
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Okay, got it. n/t
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Okay , good idea. I went back to his first post. n/t
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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:43 AM
Response to Original message
15. "Jack Seymour"
This is in a different tread already.

"Seymour" is going around asking for money on the internet and claiming to be connected to Palast and Madsen, which is not true.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #15
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. I'd never heard of Seymour before someone posted it this evening and
I don't think this person has any legitimate connection to Madsen (or Palast for that matter). At least Madsen has never written about him to me.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #24
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. Can you give a link to his Theory of Everything post? n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. Deleted message
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #33
41. I was there when Activism started posting
He seemed to be an overzealous (because he always posted and posted all the time) and seemed to be young (12-17).

He seemed to be going off the deep end sometimes.
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AnIndependentTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #41
145. I still don't know what to believe
I'm more confused then anything. What I do know about Common Ground Common Sense is that it used to be the Kerry/Edwards forum. Someone made a post on the Kerry/Edwards forum that the forum was closing down. Most of the members moved post from Kerry/Edwards forum to Common Ground Common Sense.

The only thing I would suggest is if it is true then was Activisms a member at the Kerry/Edwards forum before the move? or Did he start posting after the move? I know the move caused a lot of trouble on the forum. Basically everyone became newbies again at the new location.

Not all at Common Ground Common Sense are there to pass disinformation. It would be like if Democratic Underground was shutting down and everyone was forced to move to a new place were everyone became newbies again. Fair Election is also just a sub section of Common Ground Common Sense.

This is one reason why I only post at two forums because I don't claim to be a expert at this. I also don't send out emails. Partly because I don't have all that much time to be on the net. Granted I'm on here a lot but that is because I'm in my room 24/7. The only phone I have is my cell phone which I can not use till after 9pm or on weekends because I'm on a family plan and my dad is paying for it.

I'm twenty three, but I'm still living off my parents because it is hard to get into the field that I am in. There are so many Graphic designers in Dallas that the jobs that I can get aren't the best of paying. I'm pretty much having to do free lance till I earn enough experience.

I just had to face Friday the biggest fear and challenge of my life. I had to tell my dad that I'm transgender. Can you imagine being 23 and having the fear of being disowned or being hated by your own parents because of who you are?

Those are more important issues in my life and reasons why I don't always post. I'm usually up between 1pm sometimes 3pm at the lastest on sleep to around 3am or 4am and 5am at the latest.

I'm going to be more cautious on all things coming from anywhere. I may go back to just general and not focus as much on the election stuff, because there is just way to much coming out and it is just to confusing at this point. I think most of us are just confused about what is going on and trying our best to understand it. I still don't know what to believe on this or anything now.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #145
147. One post used the term "queer"
He was talking about how gay people on the ballots caused Kerry to loose and used that word. I just found it weird. If you are a Dem, you are most likely not going to use that work FREELY IN A DEM FORUM.

It just seemed out of place.
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AnIndependentTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #147
155. I don't believe that
I do however believe that the Gay issue has open the floodgate though for the next election. People are going to start to see how it is just like racism with Blacks. That I strongly believe wasn't what cost Kerry the election but I do admit that it was a wedge issue. I think there needs to be laws set in place to protect people's rights not take them away. Especially when it comes to hate.

Either way that as a wedgie issue is going to have less merit come the next elections. If they don't push bills to ban gay marriage then he will loose the Christian right. If they push bills to ban gays and anything that screams gay it will turn against them. That is one reason why their wedge issue of using gay marriage is going to bite them in the butt in the long end.
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #145
179. if it's any small comfort
Here's another DU'er in Dallas.

Hang in there, and don't forget to prioritize the things you need to keep going.

XXXXX
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:04 AM
Response to Original message
32. If anyone wants to know, "Jeff Fisher" just posted in the Bev thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=108750&mesg_id=114186&page=

Is this really Fisher? Why the hell would Fisher waste his time coming on here trying to get Bev reinstated on DU? Something is definitely fishy tonight.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Interesting. It certainly seems plausible. n/t
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. jamboi
go read my reply to your post in the thread I started. I think you will find that very interesting. Things like this and the Bev thread seem to get us off track. I wish Bozo luck, but there are other things you need to tend to. ;-)
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #38
44. Can you give me a link, por favor? n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. Deleted message
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illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #37
43. Bozos, are you saying that what Jeff believes
has no credibility?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. Deleted message
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illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #47
99. Yes, I have talked to Jeff
I probably should do so again because my info points to a similar situation that is quite strange, and gets weirder by the day. But I'm not saying I agree with a certain set of facts regarding this story.

Nothing suprises me anymore since I first phoned Jeff. And I'm not the type to just call someone up like that. It was just that certain words he used made me fall off my chair...that's how similar the situation is. If I don't make sense, I apologize, I can't be too specific.

Here is what's weird. Jeff posted his e-mail here and people figured out it was me that gave him the Missouri info. Since then we've had people crawling all over the Board of Elections looking for the info. I mean people I don't know. Thank God, Jeff got something inaccurate in his details. We have a person in our local group who is...well, not quite right. I don't want to be cruel, but it is a problem. They post at Commonsense...whatever. We also learned they (I'm using they in order to not specify gender) used two e-mail names posting to our yahoo group. That's not that strange, but when you're trying not to include the problem person and think you've identified their user name, it's not good when they still show up because they were invited under their other name.

They talk about Missouri fraud and other info and in the end, it is hard to tell if something is new info from different sources or if they are spinning my info, only are unaware that I am the source. Dear God, does that make any sense? We have only told a few people in the group the specifics.

I can't PM you can I? I have a question about activist, I'm not sure which name it is. It's not Jeff's friend Al, is it? I'm confused. Obviously, by the preceding words of gibberish. Sorry.
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illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #32
40. Because he thinks she's the real deal
There are a few problems with the premise that this is all a scam with Jeff Fisher.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #40
49. Deleted message
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. I agree. Like all of us she is fallible and may have stumbled here and
there, but heck she's got to be under incredible stress right now! I don't blame her for blowing up now and again. I'm sure I would.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #32
45. If that is not Jeff Fisher then someone must have fooled the moderator
because whoever it was was allowed to post with only one post under his belt which tells me he got permission from the mods.
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. It's a reply, not a thread.
Although if it was a fake, I would have expected the mods to deal with it.

I just don't know what to believe anymore.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. Oh, thanks for the correction. Its late. :-) n/t
Edited on Sun Dec-05-04 05:26 AM by jamboi
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RageKage Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:10 AM
Response to Original message
35. get your own trace on him/her
make a donation (a few bucks) with PayPal. Then you can establish a legal claim against the recipient.
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geo Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. agreed...
just a dollar or two would do. :) -G
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #35
53. Deleted message
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geo Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:28 AM
Response to Original message
54. John... IM if you have AIM.... :) -G
:) -G
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geo Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. Need to talk. Just click on my AIM link. -G
-G
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mountebank Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. Self-delete. Posted in wrong place. n/t
Edited on Sun Dec-05-04 05:57 AM by mountebank
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #54
57. Deleted message
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ValleyGirl Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:39 AM
Response to Original message
58. Oy! Am I the only one totally confused at this point?
Can someone pretty please give me the Reader's Digest version or bullet points about which things are now bogus and which are legit issues re: all this Palast/Madsen/Fisher stuff? This is all starting to jumble up in my brain :crazy: Who's been lying to whom? Is someone feeding Madsen false info? Which stuff should we ignore? Any help making sense out of it all would be greatly appreciated.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. I can only vouch for Madsen. I've glanced at Fisher's web site but never
dived into the intracacies of that yarn. Madsen's narrative is posted in three parts (so far... one more on the way soon) at http://onlinejournal.com. Palast I trust and have e-mailed him stuff, but haven't had a response from, so can't say anything about that.
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ValleyGirl Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. Thank you jamboi :-)
I always read your posts on the Madsen reports and your communications with him w/ great interest. I am just getting a little lost as to what exactly is being blown wide open/debunked here? I go to one thread that says disinformation is over at daily kos & gives a link to a site I can't access. Is it just the Cybernet and/or Baypoint lead that is bogus? Didn't Fisher start that?
Oh well I'm sure I'll retain all this into my brain at some point, lol.

Thanks :D
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #63
67. I'm new to a lot of this too. I pretty much just zoomed in on Arnebeck
and Madsen and ignored the rest. I read a little about Cybernet and Baypoint, and from what I've read so far, there may be at least something to Baypoint, but I know practically nothing about Cybernet. SoonToBePhoenix wanted to come on and debunk Activisms, which he says is a group spreading disinformation (ie. Cybernet and maybe some on Baypoint and trying to discredit Madsen, Palast or at least feed them BS). I'm just gathering all this in w/o evaluation yet.
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #63
127. It's real
cloak and dagger stuff. We should have a checklist. :)
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #58
66. Madsen did recieve some disinfo, but figured it out and played them to dig
deeper. So far as I know Madsen's story is checking out. I can't vouch for "Brad Menfil" or for this "Seymour" person.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #58
81. Deleted message
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TexasChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #81
115. That would be a great help to us that are a bit confused! Thanks!!! n/t
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UL_Approved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:46 AM
Response to Original message
60. If you really need secure information exchange
You need to think about using WASTE or MUTE or AntzP2P. These are high-encryption file transfer/chat programs for Internet usage. This is VERY sensitive information, and has been for a long time. Everybody involved with the election fraud stuff needs some secure communication so that we can operate without getting shut down.

http://waste.sourceforge.net/

http://mute-net.sourceforge.net/

http://antsp2p.sourceforge.net/
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #60
69. Thank you for the tip! n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #60
83. Deleted message
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UL_Approved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #83
154. You use this in ADDITION to DU
You have to have a public outlet to disseminate information. You also need a private and secure network to collaborate on unfinished work. That is where encrypted P2P come into play. They act as both chat and file sharing services. If you have a REALLY, and I mean REALLY sensitive piece of information that needs to be distributed, but it is so sensitive that it will be tracked and censored immediately, you have to have several copies in order to assure its distribution. This is a good use of all the programs that I mentioned. If they can't get rid of all copies, the hope is still alive. I will go out on a limb here and say that I have archives of politically charged information, and I keep it encrypted at all times, both in storage and transfer. Some is not kept in duplicate at other sites. Some was pulled soon after release. This is why you need a secure private network.
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:55 AM
Response to Original message
62. I told him on Kos that I'm calling the FBI
Lets see if he keeps posting.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #62
70. Told who? What is it that you want to call about? Not understanding. n/t
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #62
72. Are you talking about SoonToBePhoenix? What is the link on Kos? I don't
understand.
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #72
77. kos link, I think (who can be sure of ANYTHING at this rate?!)
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #77
82. Thanks! n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #77
90. Deleted message
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #72
118. I was talking about the Auditors poster on Kos
the one that keeps asking for my e-mail and spreading disinformation, and calling Bozos for Bush a liar.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #118
121. Thanks. n/t
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #121
138. He is now banned thanks to Kos
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #62
84. Deleted message
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mountebank Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:01 AM
Response to Original message
64. Can someone post a simple summary of what's going on here?
Is this any more intricate than a potential scam for money?

Is there a hypothesis about why these posters all link back to one web site?

Why was Bozos for Bush banned for this? (I don't know if this is something we can even discuss per DU rules....)

Is the idea that this is some sort of psy-ops or just a scam?

Lots of us haven't been following the Fisher-CyberNET story but think the pollution of left-wing sites with disinformation is important. So please give us a short summary of what's going on!
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #64
71. It seems that SoonToBePhoenix believes that Activisms is a group
that is running disinformation on BBV, DU and the other locations he mentioned. I haven't followed much of this, so I can't give a whole outline.
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #64
73. As far as I can tell....
Edited on Sun Dec-05-04 06:46 AM by Garbo 2004
Fisher started out with his own story claiming he had proof of fraud in the election. He appears sincere.

Then some anon poster at BBV started tossing other info (much could be proven false) and adding it to Fisher's story. This anon poster appeared to some (many?) as someone spreading disinformation. Fisher apparently adopted some of this other info as truth and apparently promotes it on his site.

Madsen is an investigative reporter working on his own story of election fraud, unconnected to Fisher.

Palast also is an investigative reporter working on his own story about the election, also not connected to Fisher.

Now apparently this anon poster at BBV and others are attempting to tie their own dubious info with Madsen and Palast. Making one big confusing mess. And this is a suspected disinformation campaign to muddle up the whole thing and discredit those questioning the vailidity of the election and perhaps also discredit by claimed association, Madsen and Palast.

Apparently claims are being made on the net now that Palast and Madsen are collaborating on this same grand conspiracy story (the story that appeared to originate with the BBV poster who used Fisher's claims as a jumping off point) and someone apparently is going around the net apparently soliciting funds for this alleged joint effort.

But Madsen and Palast do not appear to be collaborating and their work appears to have no connection to the info Fisher started with or has adopted as a result of this anon BBV poster's (and/or his cohorts') claims.

And Mr. Phoenix previously was too *cough* energetic in his efforts to dissuade people from accepting or using the BBV's poster's allegations as a line of investigation as he felt it was all a means to lead people astray. He's returned from the ashes to warn again now that this new tactic surfaced of trying to make it appear that Palast and Madsen have given their blessings to this line of inquiry.

That's about as clear as I can get on this and I'm not sure I've gotten it right. In short, it appears there is a disinformation campaign going on and confusion and distraction is its intent.
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ValleyGirl Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. Thanks
That helps me compartmentalize things better in my head. I can see how easy it is or would be to muddy things up with bogus wild goosechases. If that is what's happening, I'd be very interested to know who's doing it.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #76
86. No prob. Its pretty wild. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #73
87. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #73
101. That was really well put
We are all reduced to gibberish sound bites because we can't speak with total freedom, and it makes it difficult to convey or understand a message.

It made me understand a couple things I was confused about.

Basically, it's that Palast (who is quite reputable), Madsen (is working on a story that has many legitimate elements, and Fisher (who does have valid info and is earnest in wanting to do the right thing)...these three are legit. It is others who are embellishing or feeding false info in an effort to discredit, disinform, or scam folks for money.
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #73
106. Thank you, I needed that.
I appreciate all that those of you who are investigating this insult to our democracy are doing but as someone who pops in from time to time and sees her job as spreading the word to ordinary people without sounding like a nut case, I appreciate you taking out the time to help us poor regular folks.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #73
125. Thanks. Why does a part of me keep
laughing at all of this? I guess it is the entertainment value of watching DU deal with its "in house" corruptions. :bounce:
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #125
151. Its like we're playing a giant game of "Clue". Hmmm.., was it Col Mustard
Edited on Sun Dec-05-04 05:48 PM by jamboi
with the wrench in the dining room? :-)
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #151
152. LOL. It hones our investigative skills too.
Edited on Sun Dec-05-04 05:58 PM by Carl Brennan
I was on another board years ago where the Right and the Left would go at each other and we nailed this reptilian sleaze in a lie right on the boards. A big lie. It was funny as hell.

:hi:
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #73
130. Thank you - and a second question
somehow I missed the cyberNet story - except an item of the CEO committing suicide (?) in the face of fraud (?) investigations... the item I read didn't describe the company's work. I see repeated references and think I am missing a big piece of the puzzle.

Thanks for any clarity you can pass on to me on this.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #130
190. Wrong Cybernet
We are now discussing the "right" Cybernet (Systems, Inc.) in a thread started on the "Texas Connection". It's getting pretty intense. Check it out.
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TR Fan Donating Member (160 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:17 AM
Response to Original message
68. You should probably take a look at this thread
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #68
74. may or may not be related to this stuff. Other reasons people might
think or say Boxer is involved or interested in an investigation of the election. Of course if they link to whozit's posts at the BBV forums well then....
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #74
85. who is boxer?
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #85
91. Barbara Boxer, Jr Senator from CA
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #68
88. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
geo Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
75. John/Phoenix will be back shortly... about :15 or so...
asked me to pass on the message. :) -G
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #75
78. Deleted message
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #78
89. so to tie this in with the original thread
So it appears you've connected folks posting at BBV with what appears to be at least the source of the claims posted at kos (noted in the previous thread) asserting Palast, Madsen and Fisher are working together?

At kos's site Blogvote's style of presenting information seems familiar. Scattershot, confusing and self-evident only to him.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #89
93. Deleted message
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
92. jamboi, suggest you read this
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=114254&mesg_id=114254

We started this tonight. This seems like "real" Cybernet information.

I think lots of what "auditor" got and has been spreading was directly lifted from DU, from the thread we've been working on, which is full of lots of conjecture. And a lot of it due to someone linking it to CyberNET, instead of Cybernet Systems. The Accenture tie-in is something I personally researched and tied in.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #92
96. Thank you I'll check it out... n/t
Edited on Sun Dec-05-04 07:33 AM by jamboi
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #92
97. My recollection is that auditors' posts re: cybernets at BBV predated
Edited on Sun Dec-05-04 07:45 AM by Garbo 2004
the threads at DU and the threads here were initiated by info brought over from the posts at BBV.

Where the specific discussion here has now led to is another matter and it's likely that stuff is lifted from here and has been worked into posts elsewhere.

Cross pollination back and forth between various sites.

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illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #92
102. Is that the one that tied it up with ACORN
Because I have had two more revelations today, one being here, (Zurich Financial) and one in my local newspaper, which supports more of Fisher's basic theory. Can't do anymore tonight. But I'll try to jump in tomorrow.

Yes, most of the stuff is far out there and wild, yet just the things I've found to be legitimate are right out of a movie script.
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eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
95. Auditors material migrated to Jeff Fisher website
I was following the CyberNET threads at BBV and can vouch that Auditors definitely insinuated himself into JF's story.

After reading Auditors' posts for several days, I saw some of the material show up on JF's site, as cut and paste.

It was very obviously Auditors because he has a distinctly incoherent way of writing.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #95
131. Bummer for Fisher and us. But your last sentence had me LOL. n/t
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geo Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
100. John is at BBV
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geo Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #100
108. Just heard from John who says the BBV thread is now deleted....
this is wierd... -G
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #108
122. Did he move somewhere else? Where? n/t
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whalerider55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
103. eyes wide open
i have noticed some threads disappearing here and there, and mostly assumed (based on my own posting to them) that they had something to do with challenging a more status quo POV on this here website.

Bev got the boot? I missed that... if anyone has a moment and can sketch out the wha' happened, i'd be much obliged.

there is some amazing, creative investigative work happening here, and i intend to try to do a better job of keeping up with the jones' than i have been.

whalerider55
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #103
105. Deleted message
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whalerider55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #105
107. i posted to that column
and then sent on an e-mail.

do you know what was posted in that thread that "crossed the line"?

we can take this off-line, but i'm still new enough here and idealistic enough to want to know what "the boundaries" are- or are they more subjective and amorphous?

whalerider55
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #105
132. Deleted message
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #103
123. There's a lengthy thread (series of thread) re: Harris elsewhere on DU.n/t
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
104. Let's talk motive. Is it money or are the guilty trying to infiltrate?
ha, or both? I say the latter since it is hard to imagine that a normal scam artist would wade through all the intricacies of all this to find a way to make money
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #104
124. Yeah, I'm not sure about the money angle. That would get them in hot
water very quickly. Stealing!
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kk897 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #124
128. jamboi
did you see I PM'd you?
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suziedemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
109. Explanation for Dummies Please?
I'm new to posting here but I've been lurking a while. :dunce: Is what's going on that people are spreading dis-information to discredit the entire fraud story? Kinda like how Rather's story about how Bush got out of going to Vietnam was ignored because of that forged memo they used?

I haven't paid that much attention to the Jeff Fisher or CyberNet stuff. Are you saying it is all nonsense? What about the CEO shooting himself? Not related to voter fraud?

I was floored by the Madsen (spelling) stuff - but again it confused me because it just seemed like a bunch of unrelated financial facts. I also thought the idea of "foreign nationals" working on he machines would be pretty conspicuous. Has that been discredited or is that still valid - or a little of both?

I'd like a recap of what is disinformation and what is true. Is everything in this story: http://www.missoulanews.com/News/News.asp?no=4508 still valid?

Thanks!

(P.S. - LOVE the spell checker!)
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #109
126. That article looks solid. Madsens stuff has looked disjointed because it
s so early in the investigative reporting cycle and normally he wouldn't have published anything until much later. The immediacy of the election forced a quick response. He wrote to me that he was doing 6 mo. of Inv. reporting in like a week! He said it was the hardest story he'd ever been on. Later today or tommorrow his next article will come out and hopefully that will be much clearer. Basically SoonToBePhoenix was claiming to have potentially uncovered a disinformation group spreading BS at DU, BBV, DailyKos and other places on the web. Details? Don't know, you'll have to watch for more postings from him or from people who know him.
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suziedemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #126
136. Thanks for the explaination!
I'm looking forward to the new Madsen article!
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #109
192. No! The Fisher stuff appears solid.
We were just sidetracked off onto the wrong CyberNET company (apparently). We are now working on the "right" Cybernet company (Cybernet Systems Inc.) in a thread about the "Texas Connection." It's got some interesting links. Check it out.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
110. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #110
114. Not "suckered in" by CyberNET
This is all quite fascinating, though rather diffuse, and I have an academic (for lack of a better word) as well as a personal interest in Bozo/Phoenix's post. Some of those who were in on the "original" Cybernet threads will know what I am talking about. I will put the personal issue aside for the time being, though I will say that paranoia was understandably rife on both sides.

I just want to clear this up-- None of us were "suckered" in by the CyberNET of Grand Rapids Michigan FBI raid fame (aka CyberNET Group,
Cyberco,CyberCo Holdings,Cybernet Engineering, Inc.,Cybernet Manufacturing,Cybernet AsiaPacific Incorporated,Cybernet Internet Services International, Inc.,et al, and associated with
New Century Technologies Corporation,Stryon Inc.,Halcyon Software, Inc.,Knology Broadband. Inc.,ITC Holding Company,American Cable
CNE Liquidating Corporation,National Internet Registry, DeVos and Van Andel, et al).

While in the beginning we were trying to find out IF the raided one connected with the Fisher-named, Cybernet Venturs , we could find no connection, but we were finding enough dirt on the CyberNET Group and companies related to IT to compel us to keep digging.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
112. Kick for morning people. n/t
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indigo11153 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #112
116. Thanks for the
Morning kick. I needed that. I finally think I get what I wasn't getting.
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SueZhope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
117. Still confused
Edited on Sun Dec-05-04 11:38 AM by SueZhope
However

What I found ood was this post below from Activisms....
at commongroundcommonsense
.I thought it was Andy from BBV. Sometimes activisms sounded
like they had some REAL info that was what i had been seeing in other places , other times I noticed something very strange like this post there (below) at http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/index.php?showtopic=8078&st=20
Important update from Andy!!!!
QUOTE
"We have received word the GAO's arm, the House Judiciary Committee and John Conyers are reviewing the evidence Wayne Madsen has in his hands and everything related to CyberNET. This has been a long time in coming. The team had to dig through the disinformation to see what was going on with CyberNET and Accenture, and now Blackwell is being called down the full blown criminal investigation goes full bore this wednesday."

My question who is doing this and why? is it to make us all look like nuts so no one beleaves any of it? Or is it like others have said to make some $$. Or is it misinformation
to keep people from getting the real truth?

I noticed in an article yesterday that the FBI says it is investigating something Fisher had brought to them.....so were does that fit in?
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #117
129. To my knowledge the Cybernet thing looks like a red herring, though I
could certainly be wrong about that. Yes the FBI is talking to Fisher. What about? Don't know. The above junk connecting Madsen with Cybernet is unsupportable from anything I have seen and so I'd guess that is disinfo. The "Andy" login (who is not Andy from BBV by the way) is one of the logins that SoonToBePhoenix was questioning as being an agent of disinformation.
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SueZhope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #129
137. Thanks for answering its sure hard to get to the facts
with all the people on all the forums accusing each other of being
Freepers and accusing people of being other people.

I guess I keep wondering about Jeff fisher...and whats real and whats
disinformation he had received. Since it is true the FBI is looking into that sure must mean something in that is credible .......I think?.it's a start at least we know they did not send him of to the Tin Hat farm...But people say the FBI works for Bush.

Its the old " your guess is a good as mine " until we get some reporting that is verifiable. I will keep an open mind...
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #137
141. Open mind = good. Trust & verify, like w/ our votes. n/t
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luaptifer Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #129
144. jamboi, bozos, johnnycougar
thanks for pushing on this story. here is Activism most recent thread on the topic posted on what i'll call CGCS that pushed me over the edge last night.

http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/index.php?showtopic=8633&hl=

i should cite more of Bozos' links but he's so prolific that i simply pointed to this thread to summarize. it was his diligence originally that pushed me to fact-check Auditors and continue to push on Activisms and then BlogVote last night.

great work on the part of Bozos.

btw, bottom of that thread includes why i pushed on this story, fear of another possible 'memogate' down the road.
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Alizaryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
134. I have a copy of the "explanation" post from DU Jamboi
If you want me to post it let me know,,,its LONG. (Wanted to check out the facts he was tossing around so I had copied it)
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #134
135. If it helps one figure out what the heck this is all about,
then please post it (even if it is long)...
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Alizaryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #135
140. Alrighty..I hesitate because I don't want people wasting their time
getting too far into it, (but everyone can come to their own conclusions). YES there ARE links however, many of his "links" do not hold water for me. So FYI this is ONE of the "Auditor perona's" reply to "Amy" when asked to give a summary of what the heck was going on from the BBV board:


Hope all of this is helpful in your request, Amy!
'What follows is a whole lot of information on Five also known as 5Star Trust that has been compiled and needs to be followed up on, forcertain, along with their donations to Accenture Inc. We haverequested that Greg give us the link to his donation funds page, orsomeone that knows Greg, so that we can begin spreading his muchneeded funding across the web. We are prepared to fully back and fundany investigation that takes place. Without further influence here is5 star trust.
'Exposed: Funding vote fraud -- a "five star" investigationhttp://cannonfire.blogspot.com/
Hope you all had a fine Thanksgiving. If the following account istrue, we may not that damned turkey hanging around for another fouryears. Saudi money? For vote fraud-watchers, the article of the day must beWayne Madsen's piece in the Online Journal. It is a must-read:November 25, 2004 -- According to informed sources in Washington andHouston, the Bush campaign spent some $29 million to pay polling place operatives around the country to rig the election for Bush. Theoperatives were posing as Homeland Security and FBI agents but wereactually technicians familiar with Diebold, Sequoia, ES&S, Triad,Unilect, and Danaher Controls voting machines. These techniciansreportedly hacked the systems to skew the results in favor of Bush. The leak about the money and the rigged election apparently came fromtechnicians who were promised to be paid a certain amount for theirwork but the Bush campaign interlocutors reneged and some of thetechnicians are revealing the nature of the vote rigging program.Madsen goes on to say that money for the operations was funnelledthrough a Saudi-linked financial entity based in Houston called FiveStar Trust, which was also apparently used to fund both Bush and BinLaden. Other monies came from carefully-hidden Enron loot stashed away in the Cook Islands: Cook Islands banks also handled some of the weapons smuggling financing of the Iran-Contra scandal. A former Justice Department attorney who helped prosecute the BCCI case said the use of the Cook Islands by the Bush reelection team indicates they wanted the bank arrangements to be a "quick folding tent" operation that would cease to exist when the election was over.Madsen goes on to detail the complex history of these Cook Islandaccounts, which apparently continue in the same ingloriousmoney-laudering tradition of the Nugan/Hand bank. The article does not name names -- that is, Madsen's sources have notgone on the record. Not yet. But Madsen is a serious writer, hisaccount is detailed, and his knowledge of parapolitical financing issolid. This is the sort of article that either changes history orproves to be a scarlet red herring. My guess? I'll bet you three donuts that his sourcing amounts to morethan mere scuttlebutt. So pass Madsen's piece around. Let's all do what we can to solidifythis research. For example... I've tried some preliminary Googling on Five Star Trust (which is alsospelled "5 Star Trust").
One citation goes to a court case listed here http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:ZysrA0DgEfEJ:www.thememoryhole.org/foi/caselogs/dod-2003a.xls+%22five+star+trust%22+houston&hl=eninvolving one Marion Horn, Jr., a.k.a. "J.R. Horn," a one-timeRepublican candidate in Kentucky later convicted of wire fraud http://b2.ezboard.com/fdiligizerfrm16.showMessage?topicID=16.topic&index=2http://b2.ezboard.com/fdiligizerfrm5?page=16 Also look herehttp://p067.ezboard.com/fdiligizerfrm22.showMessage?topicID=28.topic.)
From what I can tell, the guy received a ridiculously attentuatedsentence -- 18 months -- for a serious crime (one commentatormentioned the figure of "$1B") committed while on parole for a similaroffense. Eighteen months...! Isn't it nice to have friends? Much of the above information came by way of the Diligizer Board,which seems to be a clearinghouse for information about shadyoperators in the financial world. On one page
http://p067.ezboard.com/fdiligizerfrm10.showNextMessage?topicID=497.topic they take a brief look at an accused security fraudster named HowardE. Liner -- and just look at what pops up:He claims to be directly involved with VP Chaney and running actuallythe FED program. Mr. Liner pretends to be a former JAG and Militaryattorney. They are connected to Noir Intertrade, who shall be thecommitment holder! They also mentioned the 5-Star Trust, the worldsrichest trust with TRILLIONS (sorry forgot to ask the currency!!) onthe account in Credit Suisse and UBS.Hmm. Did he just say trillions? It that's true, the allegation ofSaudi involvement may well have substance. Mind you, truth becomes a particularly elusive commodity when we lookinto financial wheeler-dealers operating on this level.
Pleaseunderstand that, at this time, I have no idea if or how any of theabove data connects to the allegations of election tampering. Butright now, every little bit of research may prove useful. In a previous article, I mentioned John Allen Paulos, the latestexpert to note the foul odor surrounding this election. (I neglectedto mention that Paulos wrote Innumeracy, one of my ladyfriend'sfavorite books.) Paulos felt uncomfortable with the conspiracy idea,because he did not see how so widespread a scheme could take placewithout one or two players getting talky. (Of course, people once madesimilar disparaging comments about Enron's plot against California.) If Madsen's article proves true, Paulos' main objection has been met:Lips have indeed loosened. If we really do have a conspiracy, what should we expect next? Well,these things tend to follow a predictable course. The corpses shouldpop up soon: "Mysterious "suicides" in underground parking structures,healthy men suffering heart attacks, that sort of thing. After thatwill come the Gerry Posner-esque debunkers who will smirk their mostarrogant smirks at all of us "tin-foil-hat" guys. Until then, we should have ourselves a nice little shit-storm. Whileit lasts, we must grab hold of any and all stray evidence that blowsour way' More on 5 star trust and their stock: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0IMM/is_2004_Sept_27/ai_n6210124
Use this to look up all their stock trading quotes:(link is right now withheld, email dude_234@hotmail.com for request) With enough research you can find them connected to everything....They financed and paid for Bush's campaign all the way along. Basically all of these folks are connected together funneling moneythrough the bank. Especially for the republican trail of nationalpolitics. Here's a comprehensive breakdown of everything: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x76758 Of particular interest is this part below Former Federal Auditor Turned Whistleblower and FBI Witness Speaks According to www.merchantsofdeception.com, these political ties,involving huge political contributions and large speaking fees forprominent Republican leaders (including former Presidents), haveresulted in a massive $280 million tax break for the AmwayCorporation, the largest multi-level marketing company (MLM), as wellas immunity for Amway and companies of this type from investigationsof possible violations of anti-pyramid scheme statutes. The "business"has brought in well in excess of $20 billion to date.
www.merchantsofdeception.com is published by Eric Scheibeler, a formerfederal auditor and later a ranking Amway insider who turnedwhistleblower and FBI witness. Scheibeler was instrumental inproviding key documentation to "Dateline NBC" in its May 7, 2004,hidden camera exposé of Amway/Quixtar's "secret" pyramid business runby Amway/Quixtar "kingpins." "Dateline NBC" reported that the FBI andthe IRS are conducting investigations based partly on informationdisclosed in the report. A life-long conservative, Scheibeler details GOP donations andcorporate promotion that have allegedly resulted in politicalprotection and benefits for the MLM industry. An audiotape of formerSpeaker of the House Newt Gingrich promoting Amway at a large Amwaymeeting is included on the site. The site details public speaking feesto Gingrich in the $50,000 range. Gingrich arranged a reportedlast-minute modification in a comprehensive tax bill that allegedlyprovided a $283 million tax break to just one company -- Amway. Alsoon the site are audio clips of then Texas governor George W. Bush andone sent by high-level kingpin distributors from a private meetingwithin the White House. "The GOP seems to have been hijacked by political payoffs from anindustry that is rife with consumer deception, and bogus 'businessopportunity' selling," Scheibeler stated. "Whether you are a Democrator Republican, we can agree it is time this secret influence peddlingand the harm it causes consumers and our democracy are revealed. I wason the inside. I saw it with my own eyes. I also have the documents,financials, and the audio and video tapes to prove it." The site also calls to task the Federal Trade Commission -- currentlychaired by Bush administration appointee Timothy Muris, whose law firmrepresented Amway -- for its alleged failure to investigate orprosecute pyramid sales schemes, despite multiple well-documentedcomplaints.
http://www.onlypunjab.com/fullstory1004-insight-Former+Federal+Auditor+Turned+Whistleblower-status-25-newsID-21378.html The whistle blower commented that, his campaign funds paid for Texasand most of their sources which would include the election rigging.Dig into this one deep, Five Star Investment has a history withAccenture." All the ties and more to the companies, Accenture Inc. is the numberone vendor who controls all the election databases pretty muchthrough-out the nation. The voting companies had contracts in almost all the states Accenturelocked down. "The FBI has now come and reported of machine owners disguised aselection officials, and other hackers, rigging the elections.This is all tied and irreversably linked together. This is not a joke,the hackers know they are. http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/112504Madsen/112504madsen.html http://www.securitytracker.com/alerts/2002/Dec/1005809.htmlThis has been linked to China....who has the most security holes, andwho was also doing a field test run on a no bid Contract, back inJuly? Diebold....
http://www.techdealmaker.com/020719/index.html Schools were trained in this. Diebold and ES&S have known this for along time. There are ties going back to Accenture Inc who creates thevoter databases, and to Stryon Inc, Halcyon Inc, that go back numbersof years. Department of Procurement receives contracts for Accenture's databases Wednesday, Nov 10, 2004 Arkansas News BureauLITTLE ROCK - The awarding of a contract to install a statewide voterregistration system should be made by the end of the year, the chiefdeputy of the secretary of state's office said Tuesday. Four companies met the Monday deadline for submitting proposals to thesecretary of state's office, said Janet Miller. The proposed system is part of the state's overall effort to complywith the 2002 Help America Vote Act. The goal, Miller said, is for all 75 counties to be linked to the samesystem, where reliable and accurate voter registration informationwill be available. The four companies submitted their proposals and their cost estimatesseparately, she said. The four are Ciber of Springfield, Ill., Accenture eDemocracy Servicesof Reston, Va.; Election Systems and Software, Omaha, Neb., and SaberConsulting, Salem, Ore."http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/11/10/News/308418.html http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:KwuFGY5sl5gJ:www.csc.cps.k12.il.us/purchasing/bid_history/2328.html+Accenture+CyberNet&hl=en Ken Blackwell proven to be working for Accenture"Charlie Black, from all reports a long-time Bush confidant, heads upAccenture's lobbying arm. Burson-Marsteller is the PR firm forAccenture. Guess who teamed up with Burson-Marteller for an 18-month,$15.3 million voter education campaign- Ohio Sec of State KenBlackwell."http://www.corporatewatch.org.uk/news/voting_machines.htm http://www.kenblackwell.com/accomplishments.asp?formmode=view&id=9 "And here's yet another Burson-Marsteller link to Accenture.Burson-Marsteller's old chairman, James Murphy, is now head of GlobalManaging Director of Marketing and Communications for Accenture.
"http://www.accenture.com/xd/xd.asp?it=enweb&xd=aboutus%5Cexecbio%5Cbios_murphy.xml Important! Burson Marstellar also put a contract out in Italy withCyberNet international, and James Murphy owns Verisign's competitor! ""Nella pianificazione delle operazioni di marketing è però necessario fare un'importante distinzione, come suggerisce Diego Lifonti, managing director di Burson-Marsteller: « Se si tratta di business to consumer l'esigenza primaria è quella di creare un brand forte, focalizzando il target e investendo adeguatamente in pubblicità e pubbliche relazioni. Nel caso di business to business conta molto di più il peso e la serietà dell'azienda. Nel caso di start up – dice Lifonti – con un investimento di 60-100 milioni all'anno si può impostare un efficiente ufficio stampa corporate e rimandare la più costosa pubblicità nel momento in cui entra in gioco il venture capitalist ». Nel mercato business è impegnata CyberNet Italia con l'offerta disoluzioni innovative per la telecomunicazione integrata per le aziende di tutte le dimensioni: infrastruttura di rete privata, accesso ad Internet, politica di sicurezza della rete, gestione dei processi commerciali elettronici e servizi di telefonia integrata. « Stampa nazionale, azioni di marketing diretto, eventi aziendali,sponsorizzazioni e operazioni di co-branding sono state le leveselezionate per la promozione del nostro marchio – dice Roberto Loro,responsabile marketing CyberNet -. Per fare qualche esempio, da unanno siamo sponsor in Italia della gestione tecnologica di Unimondoche raccoglie e manda in rete progetti e materiale sui dirittidell'uomo. Il costo dell'operazione, gestita in Gran Bretagna daBritish Telecom, - dice Loro – va da 100 a 200 milioni l'anno ».
""http://www.9netweb.it/contact/articoli/articolo.asp?id=19Look him up in the database and it will show you the reports on Murphy and Marstellar corporation. More on Charlie Black:
http://www.rmpn.org/weblog/archives/permalink/002083.cfm Halliburton tied directly to Accenture and its Diebold partners:"Accenture is big. It has more than 75,000 employees in 47 countries,and generated net revenues of $11.6 billion for the fiscal year endedAug. 31, 2002. On their board of directors is Steve Ballmer,Microsoft's CEO and known to many as Bad Boy Ballmer for his ruthless, if not illegal, business practices. Microsoft has been sued by the federal government and several states for monopolistic business practices which were designed to destroy their competition.Massachusetts's Attorney General is still pursuing Microsoft. In March 13, 2000 Andersen Consulting (now Accenture) and Microsoft signed a "$1 Billion Pact To Form Joint Venture and Expand Global Alliance." What's the alliance? To control voting systems around the world?... ...Then there's the Accenture connection to Halliburton, VicePresident Dick Cheney's former employer. Halliburton is widelycriticized for doing business with brutal regimes and was the subjectof an SEC investigation and several lawsuits surrounding theiraccounting practices during and after Cheney's tenure at the helm. The Polaris Institute says that in July 2000 David Lesar succeeded Dick Cheney as chairman and CEO of Halliburton Company. Before joining Halliburton, Lesar was employed by Arthur Andersen, Accenture's former parent company. Polaris says, " . . . while defending Halliburton's accounting practices, David Lesar publicly acknowledged that Cheney knew about the firm's accounting practices . . ."

All are linked to CyberNet group. For a fact they always have been. "Stryon (www.stryon.com ) has merged with Halcyon Software. The newcompany will focus on developing software that will help businessesmove their older software, called legacy software, to newer operatingenvironments. The merged company, retaining the name Stryon, isclosely affiliated with The CyberNET Group, a global systemsintegration firm with operations throughout North America, Europe,South Africa, Asia, and Australia. CyberNET CEO Barton Watsoncomments, "The merger with Halcyon brings tremendous capabilities toStryon" as it "can now provide a scope of application services neverbefore available to middle market companies and enterprise accounts."Halcyon is a portfolio company of ChinaVest.(ChinaVest is one of theoldest and largest private equity firms exclusively targeting therapidly growing Greater China market; China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan.Since 1985, it has raised more than US$300 million and developed abalanced portfolio of more than 40 companies.)" http://www.halcyonsoft.com/company.asp?s=4 http://www.netmaxsucks.com/mystory.html They've done this for years. This isn't some random incident, they'vebeen planning it, using students as guinea pigs for years.
Jeff Fisherand their later breaking story are completely true. Either the ownerof CyberCO Holdings killed himself because he couldn't take thepressure of the Saudi games anymore, or he just had flat out hadenough of the workings of this corrupt firm. Anderson Consulting,which turned into Accenture Inc. has been around for over 10 years. Itall fits in line with Mr. Fisher's story perfectly and the allegationsof other senators. Voter Gate 2004. Period. " "Link to teacher Charles J. Cohen, also working at Bay Point Schools.Included is links through-out the last 10 years or so to AccentureInc. Chuck J. Cohen, who received an award in Michigan state about the sametime ZeoSync got popular.http://www.ieee-sem.org/wavelengths/2003/mayjune2003.html
Bay Point Schools:http://www.baypointschools.com/academics%20frames.htm Alot more interesting where that comes from....SourcePlus coding wascreated by CyberNET Group and later transposed by CyberNET systemsinto a linux type of free database application program. It was also snatched up by who else but Accenture Inc for a factduring their dealings with ChoicePoint...
<http://www.washingtontechnology.com/news/16_3/state/16497-1.html>05/07/01; Vol. 16 No. 3 EYE ON THE STATES By Thomas R. Davies The ABC's of Market Leadership in the StatesEach year this publication profiles the top integrators in state andlocal government. And each year, without fail, someone asks me, "Howdid the market leaders get to where they are?" It would be easy to say they won more business because they arebetter, but that doesn't answer the question of how they got to be sogood at what they do. Many years ago, when I first tried to answer this question for myself,one piece of advice I was given was to "go where the competitionain't." I believe many leaders in the state and local governmentmarket today can attribute some of their successes to doing just that— being the first to capture a new niche in the market. I soon discovered, however, that knowing where not to go is only halfthe story. The key is knowing just where to go. That's the realstrategic marketing challenge. Experience has shown me just howdifficult it is to uncover the next big opportunity in state and localbefore any one else does. A quick look at the state and local landscape suggests many companiestoday are struggling with the same challenge. The traditional marketopportunities that served many companies as the foundation for growth,such as child support payment processing, electronic benefitstransfer, parking ticket processing and health care claims processing,are maturing and aren't as attractive as before. To understand where new opportunities could emerge, take a closer lookat the strategic principles that have driven the growth of the marketleaders. These principles can be summarized in three words:replication, transaction and aggregation. Each has been a powerfuldriver in creating profitable and fast-growing IT businesses. Replication has been key to the success of many integrators. Doingsomething once, and doing it well — on time and within budget — isextremely important. The trick is to be the first to learn how to dosomething hard that other companies without similar experience findtoo risky. By doing so, companies take a high-risk endeavor and, with experience,make it a low-risk one. Without replication, the learning curve is toosteep for most companies who lack similar experience.
Large, complex systems development and implementation projects are acase in point. The first time companies such as Deloitte Consulting,Accenture or American Management Systems Inc. build and implement anew system, they often take on significant risk. All sorts of thingscan and do go wrong. But once they have mastered the skills needed tobe successful, they can take these strengths to the next opportunityand reapply them. Each time they do so, they improve and put greater distance betweenthemselves and their competitors. As the customer requirements grow insize and complexity — and they inevitably do — these companies arewell-positioned to win the add-on work. This is one reason why only ahandful of companies dominate the state and local government marketfor large-scale systems development and implementation work. Transactions are what drive the day-to-day work load of state andlocal governments.
Application and payment processing, fee and finecollections, deed and motor vehicle registrations, business andoccupational licensing, permitting and benefit disbursements are allexamples of market opportunities that are driven by transactions. For companies in these niches, the daily transactions of governmentprograms mean "cha-ching, cha-ching" at the cash register. Companies such as Citibank N.A., Lockheed Martin IMS, Electronic DataSystems Corp., Unisys Corp. and WorldCom Inc. go where thetransactions are. Historically, access to high-speed proprietary datacommunication networks has been the price of admission to thetransactions market. But over the past five years, companies such as National InformationConsortium Inc. have gained a foothold in the e-gov transaction marketby leveraging the Internet and the Web in lieu of building their owncommunications infrastructures. Aggregation is now emerging as a new strategic driver of growth.Rather than bemoan the high cost of marketing to a highly fragmentedstate and local market —more than 3,000 counties and 19,000 cities —smart companies are capitalizing on the market's diversity to creategrowth opportunities. ChoicePoint Inc., a leading data provider togovernment and industry, is a good example of this. ChoicePoint collects, packages and resells data from credit bureaus,regulatory agencies, motor vehicle departments, voter registrationlists, courthouses and other sources.
For its public-sector customers,ChoicePoint provides government investigators with information theyneed to do their jobs. Investigations in state and local government, such as child supportverifications, medical claims fraud, criminal history backgroundchecks and court proceedings, require investigators to find the latestinformation on people. ChoicePoint collects data from hundreds of disparate sources andstores it in easy-to-access electronic databases, indexed by SocialSecurity number, and provides investigators with a single source ofaccess to the information they need. The fact that much of the data isoriginally collected by other government agencies is testimony to thevalue of aggregation. Aggregation, transactions and replication have been key strategicprinciples for gaining competitive advantage in the state and localmarket over the past 10 years. Future strategic principles, such as subscription and globalization,are likely to become as important. The companies to watch are thosethat are the first to uncover and exploit these market dynamics. Thomas Davies is senior vice president at Current Analysis inSterling, Va. His e-mail address is tdavies@currentanalysis.com. Accenture elects VeriSign for e-voting <http://www.washingtontechnology.com/news/18_15/emerging-tech/22023-1.html> Others:<http://news.com.com/VeriSign+to+revive+redirect+service/2100-1038_3-5092133.html?tag=nl> <http://www.washingtontechnology.com/news/1_1/daily_news/24509-1.html> <http://www.washingtontechnology.com/mergers/> <http://storage.ittoolbox.com/news/dispnews.asp?i=123190&t=99> <http://www.washingtontechnology.com/news/1_1/mergers/24925-1.html>

The whitewash to try to cover it up....Proven deals with the software: "Here's where the ties prove they were joined at the hip"Stryon (www.stryon.com ) has merged with Halcyon Software. The newcompany will focus on developing software that will help businessesmove their older software, called legacy software, to newer operatingenvironments. The merged company, retaining the name Stryon, isclosely affiliated with The CyberNET Group, a global systemsintegration firm with operations throughout North America, Europe,South Africa, Asia, and Australia. CyberNET CEO Barton Watsoncomments, "The merger with Halcyon brings tremendous capabilities toStryon" as it "can now provide a scope of application services neverbefore available to middle market companies and enterprise accounts."Halcyon is a portfolio company of ChinaVest.

(ChinaVest is one of theoldest and largest private equity firms exclusively targeting therapidly growing Greater China market; China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan.Since 1985, it has raised more than US$300 million and developed abalanced portfolio of more than 40 companies.)" http://www.halcyonsoft.com/company.asp? http://www.cybernetsoft.com/itservices/eai.html Legacy system integration for applications was planned long inadvance, Cyber Systems, Cyber Group and Stryon have been joined at thehip for years which means that it was very easy to sell their servicesto Accenture Inc. and other developers, and allow Diebold and votingvendors to freely take the source code and provide it wide open forhackers. Integrated systems that if pulled off correctly, prove thatanyone from a small time student to a low level graduate could rig themachines with little to no training at all. "Dr. Piotr Blass, chief technology advisor at ZeoSync, said "Ourrecent accomplishment is so significant that highly randomizedinformation sequences, which were once considered non-reducible by thescientific community, are now massively reducible using advancedsingle-bit-variance encoding and supporting technologies." "The technologies that are being developed at ZeoSync are anticipatedto ultimately provide a means to perform multi-pass data encoding andcompression on practically random data sets with applicability tonearly every industry," said Jim Slemp, president of Radical Systems,Inc. "The evaluation of the complex algorithms is currently beingperformed with small practically random data sets due to the analysistimes on standard computers. Based on our internally validatedtest results of these components, we have demonstrated asingle-point-variance when encoding random data into a smaller dataset. The ability to encode single-point-variance data is expectedto yield multi-pass capable systems after temporal issues areaddressed." http://www.amrad.org/pipermail/lf/2002q1.txt Doctor, are you certain that such multi-pass capable systems aren'talready in use? http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:VF37oWXvqEAJ:www.opticalalert.com/04x19x02xmltc.asp+ZeoSync+technologies+announces+deal&hl=en%20target=nwhttp://news.com.com/2100-1023-839851.htmlhttp://www.duxcw.com/newsold/2002/jan.htm
It appears that they were in use in several florida based locationsand oddly enough it was compounded into multiple operatingsystems...Including Oracle including Windows NT, so lets see then... Lucent technologies adapts the program followed by CyberNET and itslegacy based software department CyberNET systems, which is even ontheir company page. It appears as though ZeoSync largely based inFlorida was involved in this whole deal to develop the software... http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:6Qg-OtoBmWEJ:www.congress.org/congressorg/e4/cinfo/profile/%3Fid%3D123296%26type%3Ddnet+Schools+work+with+ZeoSync+technology&hl=en%20target=nw The software is nothing but a code, a shell code easily applied intoany legacy database which is what Cyber has always specialized in.
Thesame companies trading stock with the machine voting vendors.....Whatdid I discover about your interesting code Dr. Blass? Reverse integer integrations appear across the board, dependingon the bit size. Having personally heard on the radio today, from Ohiostate talking about the new smoking evidence of election fraud theyfound....I did a little back ground check. Guess what happened to the tabulators the lawyers found which lost allthe Kerry votes? They ended up counting backwards....They ended upreversing integers, which based on the studies of Dr. Blass, thisentire program was sold and patented to rig elections....Think aboutit, unparalleled control of elections due to database source code,which could be found in normal voting machines and their programmersall the way down to small end company network systems. All with onepurpose in mind: Control the numbers.....Doctor you are a mastermathematic genius are you not?
What purpose would a math-integercompression program serve inside the wrong hands? Can you imaginebeing able to hack one machine, install this code, and have virtualcontrol over all of the votes in an entire state in literallyminutes.....Have control over all the social security numbers inAccenture's database in less than 10 seconds....Have control over theworld financial records and their bank totals, using Diebold ATM's inunder 20 seconds....Can you actually imagine the impact such aprofoundly evil program could have, besides the basis of good it cando?' Apologies for such a long post, there is tons of documents we have been saving on our drives! Greg Palast has the rest of documents including the page to look up Accenture's stock history.






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Alizaryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #140
143. After A LOT of investigating different pieces and info overload
I have made the decision to wait and see what Madsen comes up with and allow him to prioritize what needs examination. Some of this could send us in circles for a very long time.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #134
139. Please do post it here in this thread. Thanks n/t
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kk897 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #139
142. jamboi, please read
hi--I pm'd you. Just letting you know, again
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AnIndependentTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
146. This is a very tough call
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=114232&mesg_id=114784&page=

This poster is also a former member at Common Ground Common Sense. I still don't know what to believe, but it might explain more of what happen there. Understand some of us who went there were there because we had been members of the Kerry/Edwards forum. I loved that place and there were some good members at Kerry/Edwards online forum.

What apparently happen is Common Ground Common Sense had a invasion by freepers when it open. A lot of John Kerry/Edwards online forum members moved there when the Kerry/Edwards online forum was closing. Some of us are just waking up to it and what is happening over there.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #146
148. Activism was not a member at the K/E forum (at least by that name)
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labouchet Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #148
150. Who do you trust?
Why is Bozo for Bush/Phoenix/whatever so anxious to pass this on/discredit other posters?

If it's all a red herring, the more experienced researchers here would figure that out in due time, no?

I found this site through smirking chimp re the Plame threads (I believe started by H2O Man?). The people here who know what they're doing will either verify or debunk this story in their own time. Why try to circumvent that process?

Something about this stinks. Don't trust me - trust yourself, and/or long-time posters who have proven their sincerity/accuracy. I've been following this story as it unfolds and I can say that there is a lot of disinformation being passed on by those who claim to be fighting the disinformation. IOW: Lies.

Maybe it's just sincere overzealousness. I know it's easy to get caught up in a story once you've invested yourself. But I do take personality traits into consideration. I read this last night/early morning and was struck by the fact that Bozo kept pleading to be kept on here, but never revealed the supposedly urgent info he kept alluding to. If he was working on it full time for the last two weeks why wasn't it ready to post???

I don't expect anyone to trust me - I'm very new here. And I don't know what the truth is. But this whole Bozo/Geo/BBV connection doesn't pass the smell test for me. Too much passive-aggressive posting technique and too little hard facts....

Anyway, what's so terrible about what Bozo is claiming about "activisms/auditor" or whoever the bogeyman is? Is it a crime to be wrong, or misinformed, or hyped up about voter fraud? If so, doesn't he fall into the same category?

If the research is shoddy, the experienced people here will see that soon enough, no? Why is he so concerned about people being led up "blind alleys", that he must disrupt the process, thereby wasting more time than it would take to debunk the shoddy research?

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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #150
157. STBP, didn't get a chance to finish his postings here before he got
cut off, but fortunately he goes on BBV. Check it out and each can judge for themselves:

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&forum=DCForumID4412&archive=

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labouchet Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #157
163. OK, I read, am I am judging...
Apparently, Bozo and luaptifer have a lovefest going on over there:

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/dcforum/DCForumID4412/3.html

I even get a mention, as a possible freeper! Make your own judgements....

BTW... lamp_shade - I hear ya! I've questioned my own sanity a few times this past month....

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GettysbergII Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #163
170. Looking at your history of posts I don't have enough information to
judge anything about you other than you have an attitude towards BozosforBush. I don't mean to pry but have you any posts you could give me I link on so I can get an idea who you are? Don't mean to be nosy and I understand if you are relunctant to post any links.
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lamp_shade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #150
159. Thanks !
I was beginning to believe I was going nuts, but these have been my thoughts for weeks... and especially reading this thread. I too noticed the "passive-aggressive" posting technique. And yes I am an old-timer here.
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GettysbergII Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #159
166. Could you give an example of the "passive-aggressive" technique you're
..talking about?

While you certainly are an old-timer here I could find very few of your posts in the archive and those were only a couple lines each to get a sense of who you are, particularly as you have no accessible profile. Did you previously post under a different username? I certainly don't mean to stick my nose in your business as mqany posters here have very good and legitimate reasons to guard there privacy. Just curious.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #159
188. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
GettysbergII Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #150
162. What is it exactly about Auditor's auguments that you find valid?
BozosforBush/Phoenix does have a long history of quality posts on DU before he got his membership taken away for letting his emotions get the better of him. I don't think any or at least many here have ever questioned his dedication to finding the truth. And he has posted a very convincing summary of his position on BBV at:

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&forum=DCForumID4412&archive=

AS for Auditor, I thought most here have long since stopped paying any attention to his/her posting on BBV. But if you think that Auditor's story carries weight could you please explain it to me because I really found it a bunch of convolluted nonsense that I've long since given up trying to make sense of.

On the other hand I think restoring a dedicated if perhaps overzealous DU researcher to these boards is a worthwhile endeavor if the respected DU members who he has offended have no objections. Personally I think the Democratic Underground is diminished by his absence and I hope the moderators decide to reinstate him.
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labouchet Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #162
169. Say again?
I have no idea what argument is valid. I've said that already.

Are you sure you are qualified to speak for "many here" on this board?
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GettysbergII Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #169
173. Time will tell
You wrote: I have no idea what argument is valid. I've said that already.

I guess I just don't understand what you have against BozosforBush then. Are you saying he's a liar? Or is it that he's just been rude? I believe he's admitted to his rudeness. If the members who he offended have no objections to his being reinstated, why should you?

After I wrote: I don't think any or at least many here have ever questioned his dedication to finding the truth.

You responded: Are you sure you are qualified to speak for "many here" on this board?

I read alot of his posts and I guess I think myself as good of judge of character as the next man. I guess those that think otherwise will correct me soon enough.
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labouchet Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #173
175. He wasn't reinstated...
He came back as a sock puppet.

He also still throws out accusations towards anyone who questions him. Even called me a "definite freeper" at his BBV thread based on my post here (#150).

I'm not second guessing the mods; he was banned (twice) for a reason.

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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #150
178. the smell test
Edited on Mon Dec-06-04 04:31 AM by m berst
What you are smelling and describe as "passive aggressive" is the same thing I initially felt.

It seems passive aggressive because in the heated atmosphere of suspicion and innuendo, people are being very careful about what they write - myself included. This is not to be mysterious, nor is it to be making implications or hinting at deep dark things. It is just using extreme caution so that the uproar doesn't escalate again. When people try to dampen the flames of suspicion, it is easy to misread that as people attempting to dampen enthusiasm for an investigation, and people can then think that it must be the "enemy" who is doing that. Logical, but false. I just ask that you take your time before jumping to conclusions.

The only other way I can think of to prevent the escalating suspicions and innuendo is for members to communicate more with each other before they pass judgement.

But, can you see that if people here cared about the investigation, and saw the cycle of suspicion and innuendo as a threat to the community and therefore a threat to the investigations, that they would be trying to caution people and dampen down the passions, as I am trying to do here? I am not asking you to trust me or Bozos or Geo. Rather, I am suggesting that you simply give it some careful consideration. Consider that there could be an alternative explanation for what you are smelling, and take your time before you come to a final determination.
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AnIndependentTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #178
180. I agree with what you are saying
Edited on Mon Dec-06-04 05:39 AM by AnIndependentTexan
What turned me off is that I'm one of the people that was attacked. I admitted I might have made a mistake and had stopped looking into it because I was giving myself a change of prospective. By peaceful means that is what I've been trying to point out. When Bonzo was trying to assume just because someone posted on Cybernet or talked about CyberNet they were a freeper it isn't always so. That is also what caused many people to feel that they were preaching censorship.

I've been trying to point that out to Geo in pm's what you just said tonight. I still don't know myself what to trust. More then anything I just wanted to know the truth of what was happening. I also believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt because that is the only way we are ever going to solve anything. I've felt with everything that has happen the media is to blame. Parts of me also feels what put us all on the edge was Bev Harris statement that the media was on lock-down.

To me that created the distrust within the system. With all the information that was coming out after the election many of us have been on the edge. I tried to be rational when I posted here about looking into things not because I was spreading information, but because I wanted to know if I was being lied to or if there was something I wasn't seeing.

I've learned even with being rational people are still going to make mistakes because were are only human. Part of being human is learning and if we can learn from the mistakes that happen we will be able to grow from them as well. I claim I'm no expert. I will point out though a passion or hobby of mine is writing novels. I have two that I'm working on. I am not a published writer because I'm still learning.

The reason why I'm posting this information is because when I research character development you must first learn about what the character will be. That means if you are going to apply a job title you have to research background from that. I'm not going to say that I'm the best of researchers because I'm only 23, but that is were I learned to research.

This along with being 23 might have been bad for me. I've also mentioned that I'm transgender. When I found out I was TG I researched it to know more. I'm trying to learn as I go because I would like to be a trangender therapist. It is a life long goal I have even though I finished college.

I tried to be careful, but even I will admit that is were I made my mistake. Being careful might have lured me into looking, but it was only because I wanted to know the truth. I felt that it was a interesting mystery. That is were my passion or enthusiasm might have been lead astray.

It is because of the therapist that I stopped and took a break. The break helped me think and try to find a peaceful solution instead of assuming anything. It is also because of this part that I'm open to listening and I'm willing to learn from it.

I'm also willing to step away on it and focus on other things. If you are honest with me I will be honest with you. I have nothing to hide. If people feel I have done something wrong I'll listen to what advise they have so that I can correct my mistake. When people are willing to listen and they are accused then that only makes it harder to trust both ways.

I won't claim to know what is right or wrong. I also won't claim what should and shouldn't be done from this. I think we all have to decide for ourselves what is right or wrong. If I'm judged badly because I made a mistake then all I can do is ask to be forgiven.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #180
191. Your posting is very disarming and and persuasive. Good writing! n/t
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #180
193. thanks AIT
What happened, I think, was a self-feeding cycle of suspicion and defensiveness. Once suspicion was introduced, then people became more determined to "get to the bottom of it" which led to more charges which led to people defending themselves or others, which in turn led to more suspicion. Pretty soon, the truth was buried below several layers of charges and counter-charges, and everyone's radar was on full alert to figure out who was and who wasn't the enemy. A lot of people got unfairly bruised or maligned in the frenzy. Then people have loyalties to people, or admiration for them, as in the unfortunate problems around Bev Harris, and that adds another dimension.

The best thing is to let things cool down and the layers of confusion will fall away on their own. Every attempt to get through those layers of confusion was adding yet another one. So we go slowly but surely now for a little while, re-establish strong communication with one another, rebuild trust, and have faith that the full truth will reveal itself sooner in a calm atmosphere than in an atmosphere of growing hostility and suspicion.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #150
189. "Too little hard facts"?? Besides UR poor english,Bozos long list of facts
Edited on Mon Dec-06-04 05:46 AM by jamboi
makes this charge laughable. If nothing else he certainly does research his subjects.
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
149. did S2BPheonix ever post
'a big summary thing' ?


link?

:kick:


dp
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #149
156. Quite simply
...because he was tombstoned first.

I'm not sure why, and have asked in 'Ask the Administrators' and I am waiting for their answer until I post further on this topic.

However, I would like to state just for the record that S2BPhoenix has put a lot of time and effort in this. He's basically spent all of his free time the past couple of weeks looking into it. I understand, and he understands, that he was disruptive before and he's sorry about that. It frustrated him that others could not see what he saw.

Unfortunately, he's not very good at doing summaries and so his posts were often big chains of links saying "See... I told you so." Also, he engaged in what could be considered stalking as he followed the same set of posters around DU trying to get anyone he could to listen. Probably not the best tactic, and as I mentioned, he is sorry.

All he really wants is others to understand what is going on.
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #156
158. thanks
i didn't think i'd get a reply, and went and checked over at BBV.org, found a pretty good summary there.
I'd post the link, but then i really like my membership here :)

suffice to say it can be found there.

dp
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #149
182. He didn't have it in text form, but someone else offered to post it. n/t
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luaptifer Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
153. who do you trust?
Edited on Sun Dec-05-04 06:22 PM by luaptifer
if you cannot follow a chain of evidence from its beginning to the end that BlogVote/Activisms/Auditors wanted to lead you to, with it, that should stand as a BIG clue.

vs.

if you find someone who's repeatedly shown that trail of evidence reaches a deadend at a point much nearer than the long winding road the counterparty wanted to have you follow upon, THAT should provide another BIG clue.

i learned my distaste for deception and fraud a long time ago. i don't care about ego or personality in this effort, what matters most to me is that efforts intended to show electoral fraud or even irregularities not get derailed.

i keep reposting this model: do you remember why Dan Rather's Bush-AWOL story went to hell and we never heard from it again? in fact, it prevented CBS from doing another story before the election that might have tipped the scales? remember?!? it was the fact that the freepers had been handed the 'forged memos' within minutes and arrived at the predisposition of 'forged' half an hour after Rather's 60 minutes broadcast.

OK, so what if Bush really WAS AWOL? that SHOULD matter, right?! DID it? nope, Rather's effort was destroyed by the media hype over 'forged memogate'.

THAT is why i want to be sure that ANY story built upon independently derived investigation has a SOLID chain of evidence from start to finish. BlogVote/Activisms/Auditors refused me, personally, at least four different times on BBV to make clear why he continued for weeks to push the connection between cyberNET group and cyberNET systems corporation. and this refusal to back up his claims came in the face of explictly laid-out evidence that said he was wrong. bozos certainly was most adamant about that.

and this went on for weeks!! all that ANYONE wanted him to do was to prove his point, simple enough don't you think?!


see Bev Harris explain why they deleted the threads on this scam:
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=26&forum=DCForumID4410&viewmode=all

i realize around here that may not be such good testimony but the reasoning stands no matter WHO says it:

"2. "A red flag on these stories is the way they are being pushed"
In response to message #1

We do now have a forum here where people can discuss them:
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&forum=DCForumID4412&conf=DCConfID134

The thing is, we have been getting calls that are just plain strange from people who act like political operatives, pushing these stories with such insistence that you have to wonder.

The stories cannot be dismissed, and merit some additional looks, but we are not pushing them here at Black Box Voting until there is further corroboration, including documents and sources that we personally have vetted out. You can't really say they aren't important, but there are things that just don't make sense.

Thanks, and I was sorry to delete your well reasoned post earlier, but was getting this message board under control and just pulled off a bunch of posts at once.

Bev"

so when you ask who should you trust, remember to check for sharks before you enter the water. would you REALLY want to see efforts that are on their way to showing fraud be undermined by a dirty trail of evidence??!! perhaps if you liked the way Election 2004 turned out. i didn't.
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labouchet Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #153
161. What is your point, luaptifer?
luaptifer wrote:
"perhaps if you liked the way Election 2004 turned out. i didn't."

Don't even go there. Frankly, I have no interest in what you think of me. I trust my own instincts first, and the documented efforts of long-time posters second. What is your point?

If you read my post, you'd see that I am only pointing out the suspicious posting styles of Bozo and Geo. If it turns out I'm wrong, then I apologise in advance. As I've said, no crime to be wrong, if sincere. But this seems to have gone beyond that.

Why not just debunk the claims, if there is in fact no connection? And why such an effort to go beyond that? Seems like an awful lot of posts by these two, with no productive results. Maybe they're just inept at getting their point across, but....

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luaptifer Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #161
168. labouchet, i felt my point was pretty clear
that so many of us believe there was fraud in this election but, yet, are wary of the efforts of Rove-types to destroy the possible impact of investigations underway. good for you on the instinct thing, it's what drove me to hammer Auditors/Activisms/BlogVote for evidence.

intellectual honesty itself would demand that the trail of evidence be free and clear of dubious quality (although i don't believe this administration holds to the same or any level of integrity). beyond that issue, however, is the simple fact that corporate media have the power to destroy anything should they care to do so. my point was, therefore, to ensure they could not destroy this particular aspect of the immature vote fraud story based on the attempts of BlogVote/Activisms/Auditors to have incubated it with a poison pill to be discovered later.

as you imply necessary, rereading your post begs the same question it did before:

knowing that BlogVote/Activisms/Auditors has been carrying this scam out for weeks and for those same weeks been ignoring the refutation of the connection he continually claimed, it's not a matter of overzealousness to dispute it forcefully. i'll remind you of the fact that we are in iraq because the admin continually repeated the lie, that saddam was linked to 911. on Oct. 5, 2004 that lie still stood strong simply by virtue of it's having been repeated with insufficient/no dispute by the prostituted media.

if you look at this post on CGCS by XicanoPwr,
http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/index.php?showtopic=8633&view=findpost&p=82065
you'll see the post of someone who'd believed Auditors at BBV (there as poster 'ChicanoPwr') despite all of the refutation of the bs that several people attempted, Bozos most stridently. poor person got screwed http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2&forum=DCForumID4410&omm=44&viewmode=threaded he/she would certainly like it if Bozos had been able to ram it down the throat back when ChicanoPwr was taken for the ride. just a guess on my part. as well, ChicanoPwr helped perpetuate the thing by playing along the whole time, unwittingly.

i don't aim to pick a fight with you, i simply assert that despite your suspicion, there's very good reason to have pushed this issue so hard.

if we didn't have skeptics as part of the crew, we'd all believe saddam did 911.

"Poll Shows More than 4 in 10 Still Link Saddam to 9/11

By E&P Staff

Published: October 05, 2004 4:10 PM EDT

NEW YORK While the press gave extensive coverage Tuesday to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld’s statement that he hasn't seen "any strong, hard evidence" to link Saddam Hussein and the al-Qaeda terrorists who staged the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, it became ever more apparent that the media still have their work cut out for them on this issue.

Rumsfeld's comments came as a new USA Today/CNN/Gallup Poll found that 42% of those surveyed thought the former Iraqi leader was involved in the attacks on New York City and Washington.

In response to another question, 32% said they thought Saddam had personally planned them.

The same poll in June showed that 56% of all Republicans said they thought Saddam was involved with the 9/11 attacks. In the latest poll that number actually climbs, to 62%.

The independent commission that investigated 9/11 concluded in June that there was "no credible evidence that Iraq and al-Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States." The panel also said "contacts" between al-Qaeda and Iraq "do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship.


http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000653667
"

"If it's all a red herring, the more experienced researchers here would figure that out in due time, no?

I found this site through smirking chimp re the Plame threads (I believe started by H2O Man?). The people here who know what they're doing will either verify or debunk this story in their own time. Why try to circumvent that process?

Something about this stinks. Don't trust me - trust yourself, and/or long-time posters who have proven their sincerity/accuracy. I've been following this story as it unfolds and I can say that there is a lot of disinformation being passed on by those who claim to be fighting the disinformation. IOW: Lies.

Maybe it's just sincere overzealousness. I know it's easy to get caught up in a story once you've invested yourself. But I do take personality traits into consideration. I read this last night/early morning and was struck by the fact that Bozo kept pleading to be kept on here, but never revealed the supposedly urgent info he kept alluding to. If he was working on it full time for the last two weeks why wasn't it ready to post???

I don't expect anyone to trust me - I'm very new here. And I don't know what the truth is. But this whole Bozo/Geo/BBV connection doesn't pass the smell test for me. Too much passive-aggressive posting technique and too little hard facts....

Anyway, what's so terrible about what Bozo is claiming about "activisms/auditor" or whoever the bogeyman is? Is it a crime to be wrong, or misinformed, or hyped up about voter fraud? If so, doesn't he fall into the same category?

If the research is shoddy, the experienced people here will see that soon enough, no? Why is he so concerned about people being led up "blind alleys", that he must disrupt the process, thereby wasting more time than it would take to debunk the shoddy research? "
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labouchet Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #168
171. "Brevity" isn't your strong point, is it?
WTF???

My point stands. Now more than ever.

Debunk posts/lines of evidence when they appear. The rest is obfuscation. Why is this obfuscation necessary?
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luaptifer Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #171
172. obfuscation? the debunking started long ago and done many times
now the issue is apparently my argument with you that it was necessary to be forceful, or not. thus, my attempt to get you to see there were good reasons for being forceful and detailed in laying out the debunk. guess i didn't succeed, huh?

disputing the need to be forceful and detailed seemed to be the implication of your use of 'overzealous' but i find that being wrong is something i can't always avoid. english is not perfect nor is my use of it.

am i wrong?

well, whether or not, i'll find out tomorrow.

oh yes, please do explain the obfuscation thing, gracias, cya tomorrow.
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labouchet Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #172
174. This isn't my argument...
I don't want to argue semantics, or your facility in the english language. If this is just a misunderstanding, so be it.

The "forceful" you are advocating here is out of place for a messageboard. That was and is my point.

When you go over the line in social discourse, you arouse suspicions. Right or wrong. Sorry about that, but there it is.

I'd still like you to answer why it wouldn't have been more productive to simply debunk the so-called false claims made by these so-called fraudsters.

Anything beyond that ventures into the "passive-aggressive", "plea to emotion", territory.

Again, I'm sorry if you can't see that.

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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #174
186. Logic? n/t
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luaptifer Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #174
194. labouchet, i don't frequent this board as much as bozos may have
so i don't know how forceful it became here.

maybe you can help with defining what constituted 'over the line in social discourse' but what i'm referring to in 'forceful' is the continued engagement of Activism/Auditors/BlogVote in attempts -- ALWAYS unsuccessful -- to FORCE him to provide clear, unambiguous evidence that would show everyone he was correct to claim CyberNET Group was related to every and all other cyber-prefixed company. this prefix is what apparently allowed him to dupe a number of people on both BBV and CGCS. i don't know that Activisms posted here.

against his refusal to validate and his ongoing deception of others, Bozos constructed a clear, unambiguous refutation of what this person was claiming and continued to attempt to get him to admit or prove in those forums where Activisms was misleading people for several weeks.

so my explicit answer to your repeated question "I'd still like you to answer why it wouldn't have been more productive to simply debunk the so-called false claims made by these so-called fraudsters." is that simply debunking was entirely UHPRODUCTIVE for several weeks on end!

as to why it wasn't?! because Activisms/Auditors/BlogVote must have had an agenda that depended on his ignoring the debunking and continued misleading of his collaborators. but you'd have to ask him directly to which he'd NOT provide you an answer. Bozos and I both know that from direct and repeated experience.

so i don't know if that is clear enough an answer for you but my answer is directly to your question. it 'wouldn't have been' because so many times it was NOT productive at all.

i'm not sure i can address it more directly, does that make sense?

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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #171
185. Logic doesn't appear to be Activisms' strong point. n/t
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #168
184. Very clear, well researched and well made argument. n/t
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #161
177. I made the same mistake
I, too was initially highly suspicious of the posts of Bozos and Geo. I was wrong. I spent the time looking into it once it finally dawned on me that there was more than met the eye to the situation. Start with whom you can trust and work outward, one at a time. If you haven't built solid trust with other members, listen to the people like Eloriel and the others who are coordinating all of the election fraud issues at DU.

This particular brouhaha was very weird because all of the roles were reversed. I was so alert to people trying to STOP threads that I wasn't carefully reading what Geo was saying, and I fell right into it.

All that Geo, Bozos, SomethingsGotToGive and I have been saying is to be cautious - not telling anyone to stop any line of investigation, rather just to suggest to people to be alert and don't let yourself be whipped into a frenzy of suspicion about other members and be led off in the wrong direction - (given that I am speaking here for others, so they can correct me if I am wrong.)

Just because someone questions the quality of a piece of information that someone brings to DU, that does not mean that they are working for the dark side.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #161
183. I find little to be "suspicious"(sp) about Bozo or Geo, Activisms YES! n/t
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adolfo Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
160. ...
Great stuff
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trudyco Donating Member (975 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #160
167. As I recall
Bozos was disrupting people who said they wanted to pursue the story even if it was half baked because they were finding incredible connections to the B*shies in a tangled web of money (mostly tax payer money) with key people constantly popping up.

George was also disruptive, but in a warm way. Interestingly he gobbed onto the Madsen story right away.

I understand them somewhat because I keep seeing the analysis of the Miami-herald piece on Suwanee county that is wrong... you do want to quash it before somebody sends it to CNN and they pounce on all of us and say we are quacks.

But most of the people doing the research were not jumping to conclusions and Bozos still wanted to stop them.

If the DUboard thought it was enough to jettison him I'm not going to second guess them.

trudyco
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #167
176. not quite
I don't think that anyone was trying to get anyone to stop any line of investigation, rather some were warning the others that they may be being set up. Bozos got frustrated and went over the line in the way he said things. Clearly, if someone did want to stop a line of investigation, his method would not have been the way to go and could never have worked. It can be very frustrating to be accused of bad motives. Bozos found and posted very strong evidence that DU was being intentionally fed false info. That should be a worry for all of us. Unfortunately, when we start down the road of suspicion and innuendo it can get out of hand fairly quickly, and we should probably all be alert to that danger.

So I would say don't be too quick with throwing suspicions around. That won't catch real disruptors, and can hurt innocent people and the community as well.

As I said on another thread, it isn't so much that I am telling anyone that they are being too paranoid (as in suspicious and alert) and that they should "move along now" - rather I am saying that they may not be paranoid enough and may be naive, and that throwing suspicions around the moment they pop into your head is not a good tactic. That problem can be solved by strengthening the community and by thinking before accusing and by more communication, not less.

An intelligent disruptor would not come on and overtly discourage people from pursuing a line of investigation, because that would make DUers more determined to pursue it, not less. If they were clever, they would go the other way. The relative integrity and validity of every line of pursuit so far has been reliably discovered through a process of trust and openness, which takes time, discernment, and common sense. Charges of "disruptor" and "infiltrator" break that trust and openness down.

People are on edge and it is easy to jump to conclusions. I have made mistakes myself. If we take our time, think things through, and resist the urge to throw verbal hand grenades into the threads it can all be sorted out.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:38 AM
Response to Reply #167
187. Don't know about 2nd guessing, but he has a compelling story re: Activisms
and should have been given the opportunity to make it IMO. Also he was contrite about his errors.
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labouchet Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
164. So now he's back-pedalling....
Posting on BBV that something he wrote was "incorrect". The link is broken, but says it is for post #18 on this thread...

BTW, my earlier quote was wrong too - according to Bozo I'm a "definite" freeper (not "possible"). Sound familiar?

I'll say it again - make your own judgement.

Looks like most people have done that.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #164
181. Who are you? I believe him and not you. n/t
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carl_pwccaman Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 03:17 AM
Response to Original message
195. Too many warning flags up against Activisms/Auditors/JS
Activisms, Auditors, Cybernet, yada yada yada yada yada.

Sorting this out makes my head spin. But a picture is emerging, for me, looking through what Bozos has posted.

The User: Activisms is Really a Group of People

First off, activisms was posting 24 hours a day, day after day, for what 15 days strait? (You can register for free at www.commongroundcommonsense.org, and click this link, and it should show the post history for Activisms, it goes on an on, impossible for one human.) Activisms MUST be a group of people using the same account, very devoted, focused. Bozos established this. No argument from me against that. But what to make of it?

So What Kind of Group is “Activisms”?

It is also well established that they are continually posting some, on the same issues, over and over, lots of stuff, to push their issue, their view. They are doing some kind of campaign to propagate certain views for whatever reasons. They are awfully coordinated, focused, and devoted, and the purpose is clearly to spread certain kinds of information on certain subjects. Their writing style is designed to convey a large amount of information and inspire concern and to encourage people to spend time looking into this stuff and spreading the message.

To propagate information to educate people to influence them to lead them to your view, is technically propaganda. Technically, the user “Activisms” is really a group of people doing a propaganda campaign.

Now, some propaganda is based in better information that others, some is just pure garbage. The question is just what are they propagating, and what are their motives?

So What Kind of information/Propaganda is Activisms Spreading?

Is it the kind of propaganda that is reflecting sound research and understanding that could be helpful for people to sort out what is really going on, or is it the sort of propaganda that is obsessive, fanatical, reckless with facts/interpretation, useless, or harmful?

There is a big difference between what we know Cybernet did wrong in terms of fraud, etc., and what can be backed up with some evidence, and the wild speculation and goose chases from Activisms.

For that reason alone, it doesn't sound like Activism's propaganda is very helpful, at this point.

But is Activism's Propaganda Harmful?

Looks like it, yes, harmful. DU's Bozos for Bush said that Auditors spread speculative yarns about 'Amy' (who didn't exist See here # 4 and #5), going way beyond anything that 'Amy' was saying. And the email pseudonym of Auditors is suggestive of disinformation: “fablecruscader” (#6 link above)... The last thing we need.

I would generally argue, anyhow, that getting obsessed or fanatic about getting people into something that is NOT based in any evidence or proof, is just leading people into a wild-goose chase that can discredit them. It is my understanding that much of this Cybernet stuff just isn't substantiated, and what is substantiated is the ordinary news on them, FBI fraud bust followed by CEO suicide.

It's not just unhelpful, it is potentially harmful, to US, if we aren't more cautious, or if we jump the gun too much and get obsessed or sidetracked on this for no good reason.

Fablecruscader indeed... ironic. I wonder what Auditor's agenda is. We really have to understand our own interests. And going off half-cocked and getting sidetracked isn't in our interest, especially if we discredit ourselves. Since Auditors and Activisms are so much involved in the whole Cybernet thing, since they are the instigators for so much of the discussion about it, this really calls into question the whole thing.

It would be prudent to be cautious. The warning flags have been raised.

-- Carl Pwccaman
At this point, I'd just leave it there. It's best to go with better evidence and some positive proof (and all this circles around without evidence or positive proof of any substance), and since there are some warning flags, why not be cautious or skeptical about Activisms/Auditor.

Who is Activisms' member Auditors? Who is J S?

But DU's Bozos did raise some further questions, that I don't know what to make of... but it raises YET MORE warning flags. I don't take this lightly. It is confusing, I don't know what is going on, but I don't trust Auditors/Activisms, and they are a major instigator of all this Cybernet stuff. Unfortunately, for all I know they may be major sources for much of Jeff Fishers stuff.

#11 here for the nitty gritty research, expresses concerns that “John Sander”/”fablecruscader”/Auditors of Activisms, could be manipulating Jeff Fisher.

Now, who is J S? Is John Sander really the John S, who's stuff is on the Jeff Fisher site?? Maybe, maybe not. But the information contributed by John S, is remarkably similar to what Activisms has been spreading, obsessively, for days, on various bulletin boards, and “John Sander” aka “fablecruscader” is Auditors, the Activisms member.

Whoever these people are, whoever Auditors is, could he/they a major source for Jeff Fisher? Are they helping him or manipulating him?

I'm not going to have these Activisms/Auditor/JS characters throw me on a wild-goose chase or give me any advice, no thank you. There are enough important things to do to voice dissent and oppose bad Bush policies and do some good research. I don't need to waste my time on this.

It seems to me that many people, on many forums, from BBV to DU, have had good reason to explore this stuff, but that Activisms/Auditors/JS have been manipulating us with their propaganda or disinformation, whatever it is, and maybe it has been messing with Jeff Fisher too.

Enough is enough!

What is it With these PayPal Requests “On Behalf” of Palast?

But as if that was enough, I'm irate at the idea that a money scam could be involved. If Bozos and Joseph Cannon's instincts are correct, that could be what's going on. Their advice is to the point and practical: give through Palast's actual website's link, NOT through these other paypal links.

“John Sander”, “John Seymour”, whatever! (another J S who is fueling the fire on all this)

Greg Palast's office says they aren't working with “John Seymour” and that any money sent to the fund should be through Greg's website, not through any other paypal links that claim to be on his behalf see here... so whatever is going on with these other 'paypal contributions', it doesn't have anything to do with Greg Palast's office, whether it is linked by “John Seymour” or someone else.

More warning flags. In various places that seem connected to J S (John Seymour, John S, Jack Sander, etc.) and Activisms (Jack Sander is Auditors, an Activism member), we also find links to a paypal account that is supposed to be on behalf of Palast. As Joseph Cannon recommended, it would not be prudent to give money to any pay pal account on behalf of Palast, other than the one on Palast's site itself. Joseph Cannon wrote on his blog about it here, and what goes for “John Seymour” will have to go for “John Sander” and Activisms and Auditors, too, because there are too many warning flags.

Either way, my concern is, Activisms apparently isn't reliable and it isn't clear what Activisms motives are, as a group. They have not earned my trust, and warning flags have been raised. Now a possible link to a dubious ploy for money?

It smells bad, and at the very least this sort of thing creates the appearance of something VERY fishy going on.

Conclusion:

Seems to me a lot of people on a lot of boards are getting swamped and distracted, for no good reason, based on shaky or non-existent evidence. No critics or skeptics who oppose us or who are undecided, are going to be swayed by this. Only true believers, and people who WANT it to be true, regardless of evidence or the lack thereof.

So it does not help us, even if it is onto something. Even if there is some truth there. We need to be more careful and see if there is evidence. There isn't evidence yet, not the kind that will help us make a good case. Without that evidence, how much am I willing to research when it all turns out not to have any positive proof, time after time?

When someone finally comes up with some positive proof of something, who will believe it, with all the disinformation out there? Or who would notice it, since we are distracted on Cybernet?

If there is more fishy on Cybernet, we have to have better evidence than this. Until then, we shouldn't waste so much of our time and energy, and it doesn't serve us to repeat misleading stuff that isn't substantiated by evidence.

Whether it is agents provocateur, or fraudsters, or fanatics who are obsessed and confused, they are a group that is organized that just raise too many warning flags for THEM to be dictating what we focus on, how much time we spend on this or that issue, or repeating their propaganda and elaborating on it at length.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #195
196. Good analysis. n/t
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JunkYardDogg Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #196
197. Activisms
I was at CGCS
At first I thought that Activisms was just a young concerned person
who wanted to do something, but did not know how or what to do and just got carried away with conspiracy theories and did not have the intelligence level to sort the numerous info properly or that he wanted to be the one who put it all together
But he never made any sense or was very coherent- I never really paid much attention to him- the Baypoint Reform School made no sense whatsoever-He got involved in long distracting diversionary discussions with a known Freeper obstructionist/diverter named Brossignal- I noticed on yesterday's long string about Clint
when the discussion went to tech talk, a poster named "just_lurking"
jumped in- his manner and self-promotion was very similiar to Brossignal who over emphasized his business/tech knowledge and accumen-keep your eye on him
I never thought about Activisms being a group- but that's a good theory-
Either way, the obstructionist/diversion tactics worked-look how long you guys have talked about him-
last week, the Clint story came up on CGCS- and I sent Clint an E-mail right away asking him some questions( but I didn't post it on the public board that I did this)-as I recall, Activisms e-mailed him also- but Activisms posted this- so when I got a reply from Clint on 12/4- I sent Activisms a PM that I got a reply-he answered me back with a message that made no sense- see:


Activisms
I just got a reply from the guy
He said to watch the Congressional Hearings this week and everythiong will be answered
If you get a message from him,
DO NOT PRINT his name-
keep it on the down low-
he may not be safe
JYD


I know his real name, his real name is Bruce and here's what scary:

Alan Gutierrez was meeting with the Watson couple in Michigan back in 2003.....Alan Gutierrez the damn software programmer!!! I got an update from Andy, Cybernet Group Global has been in on the Accenture/Five Star scam from day one they just hid the names in the internet archive and now they're connecting the dots!!!!

When I first came on DU, I noticed the Activisms name in the title on some topics- but no Activisms as the poster-I thought to myself-how does this guy have time to post here too?
He also mentioned a "Bozos for Bush" on DU who was attacking him
Activisms just doesn't make any sense-he should be ignored
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