Can anyone give a quick summary of how CyberNet fits into the vote fraud

[salin]

story?

I had never heard of CyberNet until the story of the CEO's suicide hit the news. The stories I read didn't give much info, and certainly nothing related to the voter fraud stories.

Today I have read references - but nothing that quickly places the story of CyberNet of Michigan into the bigger story. Yet the references suggest it is there... and I have just somehow missed it.

Forgive my ignorance on this issue - but a quick summary would be greatly appreciated.

thanks.

[KT2000]

1. I wonder too

it seems like a hpot issue for some reason, but I don't know why.

[salin]

4. thanks - thought maybe it was just I who had

been under a rock or something... keep seeing the references but have no context for it.

[jamboi]

18. Does it fit at all? I don't think it does. Not sure but don't think so.

[berniew1]

25. Cybernet was apparently funneling money to Repub politicians I hear

[MarkusQ]

2. It's a red herring

It's a red herring some people are using to bury the real issues and make people concerned about voting irregularities look like tin-foil-hat nut cases.

The real issues are a lot simpler and more obvious (like only giving resources to precincts you like). Who needs black helicopters when you have corrupt petty officials at your beck and call?

--MarkusQ

[salin]

3. but here is the frustrating thing

all i get are references to or around some story... like yours... red herring... but what is the story that is the red herring. I never heard of this company until last week and then thought it was a corporate fraud case that the dude realized the sec was closig in and chose to do himself in first. I have no idea how this is related - or allegedly related in a red herring fashion...

what the heck is/was cyberNet?

[KoKo]

5. There's some disagreement between CyberNet and Cybernet something

and the "hoopla" seems to be being pushed by some folks who are "really into it."

I think it's a "red herring" too...couldn't get into it because it was being hyped and debunked all at the same time.

The threads are here on DU and some off to archives but recent enough for a search. Some folks got "tombstoned" over it. It caused some big problems about a week ago. If you're curious just put CyberNet into DU search. Good Luck. Hopefully someone will give you a synopsis and save you the search...

From what I read, I can't imagine how one could condense it,though. :shrug:

[salin]

7. thanks koko...

I read some very confusing (conspiratorial) thread earlier today in which the issue was at the same time both central and yet only mentioned in a peripheral way... makes me want to pull my hair out... almost anything I have read has been this circutous and unclear.

[KoKo]

16. There's been alot of that around lately...and it does cause one to feel

:crazy: or :eyes:

[intheflow]

9. I can't either fully follow or believe this particular story myself.

It's a very twisted and complicated tail of Florida voting, the FBI, evoting machines, overseas banking interests, corporate fraud and bankruptcy and felons, and even tough love fundamentalist Christian de-programming centers in Florida.

If it's true, it confirms that our government is completely in the hands of truly evil people (rather than just corrupt politicians). But since it's ALL conjecture at this point, AND most of it is so outlandish, it doesn't seem very credible (hence the red herring remarks).

But not having the history can be frustrating, so here are 3 DU threads that will no doubt confuse you more but will never-the-less give you the history of the debate.

The most recent thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x114232
To understand this thread at all you have to go to the Daily Kos link provided in the post and read the Kos post in full. Then to truly understand the debate (because the Kos post sounds fairly reasonable, if dense), you have to read all the responding threads.

The first big thread on the subject that I can recall is this one: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=66214 (archived now)
Again, it's along thread, but to understand why no one seems to be able to give you a good summary, you'll have to read the whole thing.

The chief nay-sayers of this connection between Cybernet and the election seem to be Joseph Cannon and (used to be) Bozos For Bush (his name is now changed). Here's their active link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=114438

And if you figure this out, let me know what it all means! :hi:

[salin]

12. Thank you! this is the closest I have yet gotten

I read the last thread - but with no context... it made no sense. Could understand the charges of disinformation... but no real clear picture of what the disinformation about cybernet was supposed to be.

Will read these... and if I can make sense of it before I crash for the night... I'll chime in. Thank you again. :hi:

[JunkYardDogg]

23. re: Activisms

I came over from CommonGroundCommonSense and
I could never figure out what Activisms was talking about
Hell, I even PM'd him for an explanation
I think he has his heart in the right place though

[MarkusQ]

15. That's it exactly

all i get are references to or around some story... like yours... red herring... but what is the story that is the red herring

Exactly. No one knows. If I told you "these numbers add up to more than the number of registered voters--I got them here" you could look into it and easily form an informed opinion.

But if I claimed that Xyzzy corp. was a front for Yo-to-dyne programmers working in a secret base under the UN headquarters to earn Everquest Gold which they use to pay ex-KGB agents working for a Halburton subsidiary known only as "the W project" to develop a system of infiltrating the company that bakes Girl Scout cookies...and so on...you'll never be able to "get to the bottom of it" because it's much easier to make up stuff like that than it is to check it, and there is no story to get to.

IMHO

--MarkusQ

[jamboi]

19. Go through the old threads and you'll find out plenty about the stories

If you want to do research using the archives, cool. But unless there's some solid reason to bring it up, why waste time on it?

[spotbird]

21. It is making my head spin also.

But I think that's the point.

[VioletLake]

6. Ask the person that first posted the story. n/t

[salin]

8. which would be who? I feel like I have walked in at Act Four

in which there are tons of references to Act Three which are only allusionary and make references to Act Two and One that presume full knowledge of those acts.

on edit: on a previous thread - that alluded to the story but only as an ancillary part of a bigger/different story - I did ask this question - but got NO response.

[VioletLake]

10. I shouldn't say because I'm not 100% sure,

so I won't. But perhaps you can do a search on "CyberNET" and filter it by date?

[salin]

11. Thanks

I will try - but am going to guess that everything will be as convoluted as that which I have read in the past day... was hoping someone had read and understood and could synthesize what the alleged (or real) hullaballoo is about.

I will try the long route... if I get any clarity - and no one has yet weighed in - i'll add it here. Am guessing that others might be as confussed as I.

[VioletLake]

13. I bookmarked the thread.

I would like to know more too. Thanks.

[salin]

14. Very cursory read and I find one thing of interest - if true

lots of stuff of about a crony couple of Jeb's involved in what look like bootcamp type schools (esp for drug related and "troubled" kids)...seems unrelated. Jeb does have a daughter with real problems - that he would be on the board (often nonprofit boards are symbolic - used for clout that can help with fundraising) is not so shocking. Wouldn't be surprised due to cronyism if there wasn't some state funding kicked their direction. Seems completely unrelated.

However ... there is a comment that suggests that CyberNet is affiliated with Choicepoint, which - if I recall - is the company that was hired to do the "ineligible voter purges" in Florida - which we know was highly suspect in its methods and outcomes.

In the cursory read I can certainly "see" how folks read this as a lot of speculation and possible dissinformation.

Indeed on one of the very confusing threads that I read earlier today there was a comment that some of the information being "spread" by a suspect person on another board seems to have come directly from a DU thread that was speculative (maybe that archived thread) which would make sense. There are many threads upon which folks dig, speculate, dig, go down wrong alleys, come back, dig some more, speculate somemore... its part of the process that goes on that often leads to some very interesting (sometimes important) information - and a lot of tangents (that are interesting) on the way to that information.

If I were to train my eye on something to see if it goes anywhere it would be to see if there is indeed any connection between CyberNet and Choicepoint and what the nature of that relationship might be...

Though I concede I did not thoroughly read everything and this is just an initial reaction.

[luaptifer]

20. salin, check this thread out at BBV where Bozos did a great job

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&omm=0&om=3&forum=DCForumID4412

of recounting the history of Auditors(BBV)/Activisms(CGCS)/BlogVote(dKos) disinformation campaign.

refer to this daily kos diary http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/5/14232/7575

and this CGCS thread http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/index.php?showtopic=8633&st=0&p=82646&#entry82646

for the last anyone's seen of Auditors/Activisms/BlogVote.


Bozos and a few other folks alerts on the BBV board were the first to alert me to Auditors having a problem with truth and after my own fact-checking i arrived at the same conclusion, that Auditors continually claimed and never proved a connection of CyberNET Group (CNG) to companies that he tried to fit together as a much larger conspiracy. it may be that these other companies do have roles in electoral fraud, that's not entirely clear to me. but Auditors on BBV and Activisms on CGCS repeatedly refused to PROVIDE valid links from CNG particularly to Cybernet Systems Corporation, the one i hammered him on at least four or five times. Bozos was the primary throughout and finally the one to also bring all the info together along the way posting it finally on BBV via that link above.

HTH

PS. don't know how i forgot to post the link to the recent discussion on DU but here it is:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=114438&mesg_id=114438&page=

[luaptifer]

24. salin, this explanation is about the best i've seen, by Garbo

a concise summary of how CyberNET-Jeff Fisher and the Activisms story play together.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=114438&mesg_id=114605&page=

[merh]

26. The most intriguing question I have had regarding the cybernet

debate is why certain posters post new threads debunking the cybernet research threads rather than just let them die natural deaths. Whenever I thought the cybernet threads had faded off into the archieves, another thread was posted debunking the research. It was very strange and for the life of me, I can't figure any of it out. Suffice it to say that the saying "me thinks he protests too much" has always come to mind with the debunk threads.

Good luck and if you can make heads or tails of any of it, let us know.
:thumbsup:

[salin]

27. I will keep trying to scan for snippets

but so far come away with the sense that the story is about a squabble elsewhere, brought here, about misinfo... but very little is written about what the alleged misinfo really is - or if it is it is buried so deeply in the "story" (the breathless allegations) that it impossible to find.

Back "in the day" when I participated in discussions trying to sort out links between organizations and stories (eg Halliburton, Cheney, asbestoes, the subsidiary bought which had the asbestoes debts, and the question of whether that was also the subsidiary which did the covert trading with Saddam - via a loophole given that it was a "foreign subsidiary" and thus not subject to a US embargo)... even when sidetracked the main story and questions always kept being looped back to so one knew what the allegations/speculation was and could decide to dig in or discard. In this case - there is no clarity as to what the ISSUES (alleged or otherwise) are at the center of the hullaballoo. That, in and of itself, is interesting.

[merh]

29. That is kind of my point. The issue, the allegations, the research

would have dried up if there was nothing to it, but a bunch of folks just continued (and still continue) to post ridicule posts, warning posts, debunking posts and even threads, so many to the point that they were banned. Now they come back with new names and have other DUers post "debunking" posts for them or they get into the battle of the credibility of the issues (?) if any new threads pop up. If they had just left it alone, it would fade away into the archieves.

Its a mystery to me. :shrug:

[spotbird]

22. A mystery hidden in an enigma.

Some of the folks spreading this stuff may just want to confuse the issue.

There just has to be a way to sort through all of it and determine trusted sources. Right?

[KoKo]

17. kick...

[Carolab]

28. There is a thread about THE TEXAS CONNECTION--There all along

Go there so you can understand more about all of this.

[labouchet]

30. Thanks to salin and merh ...

...for affirming my sanity. I was thinking the same thing (and was attacked repeatedly in another thread for saying so).

The more I read about the backstory, the more I am convinced that the whole thing started as a personal feud between 2 groups of posters (with over-active imaginations and lots of time on their hands) on another messageboard, that spread out to other message boards, including this one.

Looks like the mods are now aware and on top of the situation, so I'll leave it at that.

[stirringstill]

31. CyberNet

Let me take a stab. "The Fisher Angle" had just started being discussed here at DU and these posts involved a story about Piotr Blass who alledgely had knowledge of election manipulation efforts taking place in connection to BayPoint Schools in FLA. These schools are linked to Mel Sembler and Block who are certainly close to the Bush circle.

CyberNet was first invoked in relation to this story by someone on BBV named Auditors. I think on that day the FBI raided a company called CyberNet and Auditors said that CyberNet was connected because it was in Michigan and Blass had ties to Michigan. He also mentioned Sembler and Choicepoint. When I saw FBI and Blass I got a little excited but the post didn't say how they were connected other than Michigan and at the time the only connection I knew Blass had to Michigan was that he went to school there back in the 70's. This essentially meant that there was no connection. The other thing odd was that he mentioned Choicepoint. The previous day I had written a post on DU about the Fisher Angle in which I digressed into a discussion about Choicepoint, but I didn't say Choicepoint was connected to the Fisher Angle. I was only bringing up some details that Palast had unearthed about the 2000 election and the fact that Choicepoint got a windfall of post 9-11 contracts. Auditors threw Choicepoint out there as if it too was connected with Blass and Sembler and Baypoint and CyberNet. I suspected that Auditors saw the FBI raid and scanned the DU threads and sloppily pulled out some proper names and said they were all connected. But, perhaps Auditors was leaving clue? We now know better, but I think people initially ran with CyberNet because of the FBI raid. Then the head of the company shot himself. It took on a life of its own in part because there are multiple CyberNets, some direct links to the Defense Depart and some to the porn industry. Fascinating but not necessarily related to the election.