Madsen has two strikes ... and bad sources

[garybeck]

I read in one of the Madsen invterviews, that he predicted Bush would invade Iran before November 2nd, based on some kind of information he had obtained...

strike one.

Then, he was talking for a good week about this $29 million dollar check and he sounded pretty sure it was real, because of a great informant. Next thing we know, the check is fake.

strike two.

I'd have to say, wherever his "sources" and "informants" are coming from, they are not very reliable.

Let's hope he hits a home run with this Clint Curtis guy.

But if he swings and misses again, I'd say three strikes and you're out. I'd be very unlikely to spend a half hour reading a long article like that again.

Personally I feel a little "bitten" by Wayne's check. He told us it was really important for us to go out and tell our friends and the media about his check. Now it turns out to be trash, and he had not even called the bank in Canada yet when he wrote the first two articles. (?)

[bleever]

1. No, he didn't say the check was "trash", he clarified what kind of clue

it was.

And a more careful reading would give you better grounds for refuting, it that's what you want to do.

[garybeck]

8. he said it was a fake check

For several days he was telling us the check was real. Now he says it is fake.

I don't think a fake check is something you are going to bring down a president with.

[bleever]

11. And what's with the Jerry avatar?

Man, JG would never go crashing over the groove with this kind of unstudied blaring.

[garybeck]

20. it's not unstudied blaring

I ain't crashing, just trying to be objective.

[bleever]

44. Sorry if I misjudged your motives, but people do tend to be

suspicious here at DU of people who chime in without really being up on the volumes of info that have come out. It often indicates a disrupter.

All sincere efforts deeply appreciated.

[Sideways]

33. Bleeve You're In Oaktown? City Of My Birth

And my residence before I began my sojourn abroad. I miss the ratty tatty beauty of the East Bay.

Crashing over the groove indeed. JG would love DU.

[bleever]

42. Yep, beautiful Oaktown in the glorious East Bay. Used to be

the site of more Dead shows (especially NYE!) than any other place on the bright blue planet.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[garybeck]

17. judge a person by their posts?

You want links? Go to my website:

http://www.solarbus.org/election/


as you can see, i've had madsen's first two articles up there since the day they appeared on Online Journal. However, some of the information in them is now completely wrong so I'm going to have to take them down.

look, i'm not writing him off completely. i'm just saying, let's not all jump on his bandwagon blindly. as I've said, I hope this new informant is the golden egg we've all been waiting for.

[tuvor]

21. I trust you can appreciate where I'm coming from.

If not, you need to read more posts.

[garybeck]

27. ?

Friend,

I don't understand why at first you seemed to criticize me because I didn't have enough posts, then you said I need to read more posts.

Personally I think that a person's remarks should be judged by their merit alone, not by how many posts they have or how many they have read. I think there are some people out there who are very educated about this subject but have not posted very much on DU. I am one of them. That is mainly because for at least a week after the election, the registration was shut down. I found other ways to get my information. It is the same information as on DU. Just check my website. I am sorry we are not communicating well. I sincerely apologize if I have said anything to make you feel anything other than good vibrations. that is what we need now.

peace,
gary

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[garybeck]

29. most of us can't read them all

and we have to choose somehow which ones to read.

we all are going to waste some time reading bogus stuff, and also miss some of the good stuff. I don't know any way around it but to try our best. I think if something gets a lot of replies, and bumps and kicks it's usually worth checking out. or, if it just grabs me.

I've come to realize that I simply don't have enough time to keep watching everything. I don't see how anyone can. There are radio shows, discussion groups, blogs, and the list goes on. I have a full time job, two babies, and a teenager. But I am so passionate about this that I'm giving up on my sleep to keep the website going and updated.

Luckily now have a small team of people who email me when something important happens and I haven't put it up on my website yet.

We are all making this happen.

I wonder, if there was no internet, would we even have any suspicion at all? What if the media blocked it out there was no way for us to communicate like this?

I think the internet is going to save democracy.

peace
gary

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[garybeck]

51. well...

I didn't know I had a responsibility to please any particular person but evidently I do.

[americanwhothinks]

38. i hate to see those who question being bashed!! questioning is necessary

and those who are opposed to inquiry and caution, those who wish we would "believe"--

well, let's just say I don't think this approach will do us any good, and it may in fact be quite harmful!!

[Angry Girl]

49. Agreed! Let's NOT become our enemies!

And, for whatever it's worth, Gary Beck's NOT a "troll". . .

unless, of course, he's posing as the real Gary Beck of http://www.solarbus.org/spr/index.html

[garybeck]

53. yes i am the real gary beck

but I haven't updated that site since before the election. use this one instead

http://solarbus.org/election

[wiggs]

3. I'd say he's fouling them off...still at bat.

First: You'd have to admit that the chatter coming from the WH and elsewhere sounds ominous in terms of Iran. I don't like the similarities of the sound bites to 2 years ago regarding Iraq. It is not out of the question that some sort of action could take place there. It isn't obvious that we are going to stay out of Iran. So the fact that he missed a date shouldn't be that important. And maybe there were plans for Iran before November 2 that were changed. Who knows.

Second: The first I heard that the check was fake was from his own interview. It's not like he isn't checking this stuff out (no pun intended). Maybe the fake check was out there to discredit the real information surrounding it (a la the CBS memos: real information, possibly fake document). I don't begrudge him his aggressiveness.

He is on the trail of something that has the appearance of being real. I don't think he would peddle something he thought wasn't genuine.

One thing I like about this line of investigation is that once a bit of information came forward, the thing is getting deeper and more detailed. It is developing the way it should, unlike other promised leads by others that just disappear.

I say go Wayne....foul em off if they're not your pitch, but swing for the cheap seats if they put one over the plate.

[garybeck]

10. his Iran prediction

but my understanding is he was predicting an Iran invasion BEFORE our election. It turned out to be bad information. It didn't happen.

I'm not saying Madsen is a fake or a liar, I'm just saying that we have to keep is track record in mind and be objective.

Rove surely has been planning this out for quite a while and he's going to throw some curveballs at us.

sorry for all the baseball references.

but if I may one more, let's hope BUSH GETS CAUGHT STEALING HOME.

-g

[wiggs]

24. Analogies gone wild.

It is the final game of the world series. Bush has already stolen home and the home plate umpire called him safe and Bush's team the winner, even though it is clear he couldn't have been safe: he is blind, drunk, and has only one leg. Plus, the score before the steal had Bush's team down by five runs, so one more run could not have won the game but, alas, the scoreboard does show Bush's team ahead now.

The coach for the democratic team refuses to appeal the play to the other umpire. Many of the players on the field seem disinterested in the outcome of the game. Finally, some of the players on the field appeal the play to the other umpire, but the announcers in the booth aren't saying anything about it and are going along with the score on the scoreboard.

The other umpire won't make a decision, so the game is delayed, but media outlets declare that the game is over.

Before resumption of the delayed game, the owner of the democratic team starts to think about what players it wants to acquire next year, what the uniform colors should be, and what drills should be used in training camp next year.

The issue of whether or not the scoreboard operator should be fired does not come up.

[garybeck]

26. this is like the pine tar game

If you have never heard of the pine tar game you must check it out.

As far as I know, it's the only game that was called one way by the umpires and later determined that a call was wrong and they made the teams come back and finish the game over.

it changed the outcome of the game.

bring on the pine tar

[stirringstill]

31. Not even a strike

Actually a lot of people were writing similar articles to Madsen's about Iran. Quick Lexis-Nexis search or just search some old DU threads. Some troops were actually shipped off being told they were heading to IRAN. Well, it didn't happen. Good for us and good for Iran.

[jamboi]

4. Wrong Chong! He informed me last week the check was fraud/sent copy 2 me!

I was not allowed to say anything until Madsen released the info generally.

[truehawk]

19. What was the point of a "fraudlent" check?

If someone presented this check to 5 Star Trust and it is paid, then it is not "fraudlent".

There was something in Hawaii when I worked there in 1983, a bank that was a CIA front.

The checks were only good if they were presented directly to the "Bank".

I had a friend that was trying sit on a grand jury for tax fraud? I think, against a person that they ended up letting go because the CIA would not give them documents, or refute what the guy said about the origin and destination of the money they wanted him to pay taxes on.

Left hand right hand thing.

[The Backlash Cometh]

36. I find it amusing that we're surprised that unscrupulous people

would write a bad check. If not unscrupulous people, then who?

[ClintCooper2003]

5. With the check, the investigation was ongoing. He was shaking the tree.

GaryBeck is crazy freeper! Nix him now! HA HA HA HA HA HA

[garybeck]

15. hey I hope Madsen is right. don't get me wrong.

Just remember that Rove has tricks up his sleeve. You know he's been planning for various scenarios for months.

[George W. Hayduke]

50. some people here in DU

are no better than the ignorant fascist repuglickinazi's with their quickness to target a poster with accusations of being a 'freeper' because of skeptical inclinations and low posts.

GaryBeck's website is excellent and has probably been up on the web much longer than most 'freeper-pointers' have been a part of DU.

[fearnobush]

6. Stay focused and vet all reports. Bogus, planted info is everywhere.

There are a lot of bad checks hiding in front of what really happened. It's all part of the process. Watergate did not go MSM over night.

[Woo]

9. I say to Wayne M if he's reading....

SWING AWAY ...

[starroute]

7. Madsen is only as good as his informants

He's been wrong at least one other time -- last summer, when he said Plame indictments were imminent. On the other hand, he's also been spectacularly right at times.

I suspect he attracts more than his share of would-be whistle-blowers and leakers, and some of them are right and some of them are wrong (or at least premature) and some of them may be deliberate sowers of disinfomation.

I believe he is honest and is doing his level best to sort out this election fraud story, at the same time he is under enormous pressure to do it NOW instead of taking his time.

I don't like the slipperiness of the materials he's working with, or the way the story seems to bop around from place to place without ever settling down to one consistent narrative.

But I'm willing to give him a chance and see how all this develops. If he's really hearing from CIA guys who are pissed as hell at the Bushies and eager to spill their guts, he may be getting some very deep material.

[garybeck]

12. what are some of the things he's been right about in the past?

I guess I've only started to learn about Madsen. What are some of the thing's he's been right on about in the past?

I hope he's right.

A sworn affadavit of being paid to write the code is pretty hot. That's what we've been waiting for.

Let's hope he doesn't end up like Athan Gibbs or Ray Lemme.

-g

[anamandujano]

16. I wish he or someone could trace the bad leads

back to the source. I guess the time doesn't permit, plus broken links.

[garybeck]

18. most bad informants are probably connected to Karl Rove (n/t)

[anamandujano]

23. Proving that would be game, set, match.

that is why it is both worthwhile and at the same time almost impossible.

[ebayfool]

35. That's what I'm hoping for as well.

"But I'm willing to give him a chance and see how all this develops. If he's really hearing from CIA guys who are pissed as hell at the Bushies and eager to spill their guts, he may be getting some very deep material."
----------
That's what I'm hoping for as well. Pissed off CIA guys, just imagine the possibilities in that scenario! If Madsen has an in w/these people, I would imagine they could bury *ush & company so deep they'd never see daylight again. Never thought I'd see the day I'd be rooting for the CIA>

[Nordic]

13. just use your nose.

I've got a pretty good nose.

The check smelled bad right from the start.

about 90% of what Madsen says smells genuine. You read it and things go "click" in your brain, things suddenly connect and make logical and diabolical sense.

It's a work in progress.

[Straight Shooter]

14. I want to see Madsen continue to shake the shrub

Just so we can watch the nuts fall out of the White House.

[AnIndependentTexan]

22. Why not do another question and answer with him?

I believe it was posted that Democratic Underground did a Question and Answer that helped Madsen. He even thanked Democratic Underground for the help so instead of downing Madsen why not do a question and answer? I'm not for sure how the first one got started, but I remember seeing it.

I'll say this before it goes overboard with everyone on this issue with Madsen. Do not judge by saying three strikes and you're out. If there is reason to debate what Madsen said then do so that it will help on the weak points. Be civil, but don't shoot the messenger. Isn't that what another group wanted to do to the person who took the video of the Marine killing the unarmed man in Iraq?

I don't know enough to judge Madsen and I won't judge Madsen. If there is reason to debate what he is doing then be civil and debate it. Don't call a person a name. If you were worried about the Check then you should have said I'm worried about the Check that Madsen has brought up. This might even be pointless to say right now because from the post it seems you have already made up your mind.

I won't attack you or flame you for posting, but I will say that being civil is what is needed. If you feel that Madsen is wrong on the check then research the check. Being skeptical is OK, but name calling or saying someone can not be trusted is not the best way to debate a issue.

[garybeck]

25. I'm not attacking Madsen

Please, I'm not saying to reject him. Look back at my post. I said there's two stikes. I've seen a lot of home runs hit with two strikes. Reggie Jackson used to do it all the time.

What I am saying, is that if Clint Curtis turns out to be a flop, some serious questions have to be answered before I go out again risking my reputation as a quasi-journalist by telling people to look at his stuff.

as Bev Harris said, we are the media. That is true. But there is a responsibility that comes with being the media. We must build trust with people who are new to learning about the voter fraud issue. If the first thing we tell them about is a $29 million dollar check that is the "smoking gun" and two days later it's a fake check, this is not a good way to build a rapport with readers.

But again, I'm still holding out hope in Madsen. Clint Curtis could be the key to the entire unraveling. I wonder if he has claimed the $200,000 reward. It would be very interesting to see if the people offering the prize find Clint's testimony worth paying the reward. That would certainly lay a lot of credibility to the story.

For now, I'm holding my breath.

Clint Curtis. Sort of has a nice ring to it. Sounds like a home run hitter

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[garybeck]

32. you are dead wrong

i'm not a troll.

read the portion of the thread with trutor above. fer crissakes I run a freaking website about voter fraud.

i understand folks, that there are some trolls muddying the water here. but that doesn't mean that everyone that doesn't have 1000 posts is a troll.

[AnIndependentTexan]

34. This is why in post 22 I posted what I did

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on who you are. Wording is important to take into account. When you made the post you used some wording that is going to put people on the defensive. The strikes you are out is what caught my eyes at first glance because of the topic. Some are going to be reading it and see it as a attack.

Tonight seems to be a weird night and that is why in the other thread on another topic I said that I was going to sleep and I mean it. After this post I will be turning off my computer. I won't be able to respond till I wake up tomorrow so please know if you respond to this that I'm not ignoring you I am only sleeping.

P.S. I can understand were the other person is coming from as well. Remember to be civil because of how the post was worded it is going to put some on the need to defend Madsen. Just as it will put you on the need to defend yourself. It is just something we all learn. Some of us sooner then later. Now I'm off to bed.

[KeireG]

37. Attacking him about the check is...

...ridiculous. Most investigative reporters wouldn't be divulging as much information as frequently as he is. We should be thankful that he is keeping us posted, and not be attacking him for every trip he makes. He's going to make trips, he's going to make mistakes. In the course of any research project or investigatory work stumbling blocks arise.

[myschkin]

39. See the new coloumn of Olbermann

"Once again, if any part of Mr. Madsen’s writing on the election is proved and valid, I’ll not only repeat my offer to pay his way for him to pick up his Pulitzer Prize — I’ll physically carry him there myself. There could very well be facts — even important facts — hiding in there somewhere.

But to turn on a dime and write that a document is real, and hard evidence of a crime, and then come back and admit that it’s fake, but still hard evidence of a crime, is an intellectual leap of faith worthy of Evel Knievel. It violates every precept of good journalism, to say nothing of good investigation. I won’t even ask about logic."

[Last Lemming]

40. Parenthetically

There seems to be a desire to smear a congressman here. . .
perhaps because of his role in Medicare Legislation

[plasticsundance]

41. Will we ever know in this Orwellian reality

My fear is that Clinton Curtis could end up like his confidant, Mr Lemme, i.e. found dead in a hotel room. The rabbit hole goes so deep with the Bush Administration, because they desperately need to hide the trail of their deceit. I'm afraid, it'll only get worse when the Bush Crime Family become forced to use more abusive power when the trail gets hot.

Even if the story turned out, or stated, as false, could we accept that as the truth and not disinformation. In the Orwellian reality we currently find ourselves, where four is five, will we ever know the truth?

With the US corporate media in collusion with the Bush Administration, no one will ever hear about Clinton Curtis, even if he suddenly had an unfortunate accident.

I would also add that in the age of the Internet, information travels fast, and therefore the competition to report on information can affect the quality of that information, or make it more vulnerable to shenanigans.

For instances, Dan Rather did not purposely deceive us. He just became wound up in the nature of the business. While, on the other hand, most US corporate media stooge anchors, make it part of their business to beguile the American Public, but they're never called out for it.

BTW, has anyone checked out the Raymond Lemme mentioned in the Clinton Curtis affidavit? I googled the info, and I did a LexisNexis News search and found nothing.

[BlueDog2u]

52. I see no evidence of a smear campaign

I see an accusation that an otherwise quite dubious if not downright sleazy political operator was involved in an illegal conspiracy.

[DubyaSux]

43. I think I've proven him as a fake...

....over on another thread. I don't want to retype it, but here's my take on it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x121760#123241

[IAMREALITY]

45. Proven?

Pretty strong word, Especially since it didn't prove a thing.

[DubyaSux]

47. Well..

...I hate for facts to get in the way of a good theory, but I could never convince some of you of reality. You have a solution in search of a problem and nothing anybody says will sway you from that.

[righteous1]

46. Very interesting data you have presented

I am not knowledgable enough in this subject to understand everything you have said, but it appears to make pretty good sense

[jamboi]

54. Interesting, but as a programmer I disagree.