Think We Can't Win? Think Our Cause Is Futile? Quietly Walk To The Door

[IAMREALITY]

Too many people feel the need these days to announce defeat and to showboat negativity. There is nothing wrong with offering opinion, and each of us here has a right to speak what we feel, regardless if it is the unpopular stance of the moment. We are, after all, a community. We will not always have the same views, opinions, thoughts and positions. That is ok. But as a community we must always maintain respect for each others opinions, when that respect is warranted.

Not believing in our cause is a choice. It is a choice a member has a right to. What the member does NOT have a right to is disrespecting those that choose to believe. I support differing opinions on DU. Hell, this would be a boring place without them. There is a big difference, however, between objecitivy and defeatism.

If someone no longer wants to support our cause, fine. But there is a time and a place to speak such opinion. We are a team here. An Army. We are in the thick of a dangerous battle. If you no longer have the strength, the will, the courage, or the fortitude to continue to fight along side us, then lay down your weapon quietly and walk away from the battle. Do NOT lay down your weapon, walk to the front lines, ask for everybody's attention, and tell everybody that we can't win, that the battle is useless, that there is no hope.

Only Leaders have that right. Only Leaders have the right to address the group as a whole. And when they do they do so with STRENGTH, not weakness. They go to the front lines to MOTIVATE the troops, not to defeat them. Someone who does not support the cause does NOT have the right to address the group as a whole. The Army of Strength does not need to hear that one of their troops has failed, has fled, has given up hope, or has laid down their weapon. The Army of Strength only cares about words of encouragement, words of optimism, words epitomizing that failure is not an option. Anything less only serves to destroy that Army of Strength, to weaken it, and No ARMY SHOULD BE WEAKENED WHEN IN THE THICK OF A BATTLE.

So again, we all have a right to speak our minds, to believe or not believe. It is the respect we have in portraying those beliefs that are important. If you choose to no longer fight, lay down your weapon quietly and proceed to the door. Don't walk straight to the front lines of the battle, start a thread for all the troops to see, and announce that there is no hope. That is simply an issue of respect. Respect for the troops that are still in the thick of the battle.

[rucky]

1. Naysayers...

cannot afford another disappointment, so they hedge their bets? Or is it that they prefer an "I told you so" to a desirable outcome?
:shrug:

[Razorback_Democrat]

2. Well stated!

find another discussion area if you don't want to discuss the election and fraud in a reasonable manner (and I don't mean that dissent is not welcome) but flaming dissent and doubt casting seems like something the other side would do to us.

[Broken Acorn]

3. I agree Reality

but you failed to mention personal attacks on people as well. Those are unwarranted, regardless of their positions. I just hope you will treat everyone with respect (since you seem to disagree with alot of people in here).

Overall, I firmly agree with your statement.

[Razorback_Democrat]

5. IAMREALITY actually seems to represent more agreement than

disagreement from my experience here, limited though it is.

[Don Claybrook]

4. What's up with the GI Joe trip?

Since 2001 I've heard many different versions of requests to squelch "negative" posts.

Well, I'm not enlisted in anyone's army, and frankly, although I'm still registered as a Democrat like I've always been, the Democrats are going to need to convince me next time they want my vote. I'm getting used to losing; I'd rather vote for a real progressive and KNOW I'll lose than to vote for the lesser of two corporatists in hopes that marginal changes will occur.

Sorry if I'm not supportive enough of the troops.

[jamboi]

65. I think he's just reacting to the flood of payed disinfo freepers DU's

been recieving.

[Razorback_Democrat]

86. Now Jamboi

we don't use the f****** word anymore here

B-)

[FranzFerdinand]

6. impossible

the minute someone around here lets their smile down, everyone jumps on the "he's a freeper". this place is stupid. truth is, you can't speak your mind around here without getting labeled as something you aren't.

very little respect here. one day i expect to come here and it will turn into a anti-free speech site. where is the respect for those who aren't so quick to believe?

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FranzFerdinand]

13. yes, i am a freeper. you guys got me...

and i have almost as many posts as you. ask yourself, would you have over 150 posts if you were a freeper? do you think i'd spend that much time here?

i donated more than i could afford for our cause. i was born and raised a democrat. i need not prove to anyone on this site that i am not a freeper. this is just silly. again, ask a moderator to show you all of my posts. do it.

but, if it makes you feel like a hero pointing freeper accusations around, rock on, you're doing an excellent job and everyone else here appreciates your hard work.

do it.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FranzFerdinand]

21. hey awesome!

freepers are scum of the earth. period. you call me a freeper (which you have at least 3 times already this morning), i'm gonna tell you i'm not a freeper, it's not hard to figure out. surely you are smart enough.

and, if i am a freeper, quit worrying about calling me one. i'm on your side but it doesn't mean we share every viewpoint.

[Razorback_Democrat]

30. Whatever Franz!

I'll let it go at that

[jamboi]

67. Everyone friends again? Shake hands and give a hug. :-) n/t

[IAMREALITY]

69. Jamboi

I love ya bro. I wish I had the level headed rationality you seem to maintain at all time. Seriously, I consider it an inspiration.

:grouphug:

[Razorback_Democrat]

88. Peace

:hippie:

[T Town Jake]

89. "acting like a suspect"...Jeesuz but that's rich...

...DU's very own Joe Friday, are ya? What a fucking joke.

[Razorback_Democrat]

91. Just the Facts, just the facts!

come on now

we're all friendly now

no flaming allowed

:evilfrown:

[IAMREALITY]

8. I Haven't Called Anyone A Freeper

That is not the point of the thread. The point was that letting your smile down is one thing, posting it in a thread to ask for support is one thing. CREATING a thread that only serves to bring down those working their asses off for the fight is something completely different. If someone disagrees with our cause, go post in General Discussion Instead, or one of the other many forums here. Or post your thoughts inside of a thread. But to broadcast it as a header is just simply disrespectful to those in the thick of the fight.

[ZRB]

16. Well said. nt

[Cheswick2.0]

9. ummm I have been here for years and have 20,000 posts

I don't see what you see at all. There really is not much squelching of free speech here.

[mary195149]

10. Just remember,

4 years ago, after the election when we wanted the votes hand counted in Florida we all came out swinging immediately. But, if you recall as time went on, and all the stumbling blocks the repubs were putting up, the dems started tiring out and lost their steam. I couldn't believe people actually wanted it to be over with, instead of fight for our votes. Al Gore didn't want to quit, but he was forced to. He lost his backing.

This time instead of the the dems handling this situation, from the outside in, fighting without a game plan, we are fighting from the inside out, planning before we act.

I think we are gaining steam this way and as more things are uncovered we will win our country back. Let's not give up. We have come so far.

[seito]

18. Well said

WE are driving this train, and we are not even winded yet.

[saddemocrat]

14. Franz

I agree. One of the reasons that I dont post here much anymore is because of the lack of courtesy shown if you 'let your smile down' for a second. It is healthy to question what is going on and NORMAL to feel defeated a month after an election after you have donated money to causes and then nothing happens. It is hard to wait and be patient. This is not a supportive community. If someone says "I'm feeling defeated" the diehards 'working their butts off' need to be able to 'rally the troops' and not call people freepers and start threads telling people to basically shut up or get out. As a result, the community loses the ability to think critically and I believe narrows their focus...potentially overlooking misinformation and making themselves appear to be radicals instead of mainstream dems looking for honesty in his election.

I posted a single thread once where I stated that I was afraid the ohio recount wouldn't happen and that I felt devastated by the results of the electin. I had F*** you message in my inbox and was called name after name after name.

I don't post or even read her often anymore because of this.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IAMREALITY]

20. My Dearest Franz

"we're not changing the world here..."

Change your 'We' to 'I'...

...Cause the rest of us most certainly are going to change the world.

[FranzFerdinand]

23. i don't want the world

i just want your half...

[goclark]

26. Yes we do want to change the world

right here on this website!

I want to believe that posters here ,except for the freepers, wanted the Democrats to win this election.

I believe the overwhelming majority here now believe that the election was a FRAUD and that we got our votes tampered with and we technically "lost."

Well we are here to change the world!

We are here to educate ourselves and educate our friends and community on political issues.

We are here because we believe that this is an unjust administration and we want to change that, that's why we voted for a better America and a better world.

Let's MARCH!

[keepthemhonest]

31. don't give up

please hang with us,

I see what the original poster is saying, that we want to keep the names on the threads of positive as possible, and that will keep us more positive in general. However, we do not always have good news coming in, so that is an impossible feat.
I think people could hold back a little on the freeper calling,but I assume sometimes that the person is more experienced at recognizing freepers than myself.I think that premature freeper calling could lead to a good new Du'er leaving us for good and who knows what that one person might have been able to do.



Be nice
Be nice
Be positive

[saracat]

101. sademocrat, don't give up. Some people are just rude and some

cope with their own grief or anxiety by dissing others. I am sorry you had a negative experience. It has happened to me too. I also had a wacko send me weird emails because I didn't think she was a genius! You are as entitled to your feelings and opinions as anyone else. No one has the right to make you feel bad. You just hang in there ,lift your chin up and know that you are better than these silly people who engage in personal attacks! I look forward to more posts from you.A voice of reason is always appreciated.

[Tikki]

11. Be aware....

that there are those out there that DO NOT WANT anyone/us to EVER: There is nothing wrong with offering opinion, and each of us here has a right to SPEAK what we feel, regardless if it is the unpopular stance of the moment.

If you have been harassed, seriously threatened or visited by the SS for speaking up and out then you will know that this political climate has empowered some people to believe that they, now, have the superpowers to suppress our 'offerings of opinion' and 'free speech'.

Will I stop talking? NO

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seito]

15. We are in the midst of a battle

to save our nation. Your point is well taken. There are many forces of the opposition that will do everything they can to demoralize us and discredit our efforts. We are outnumbered and outgunned. The only way we will be victorious is to stand firm, stand together and never surrender.

I pledge to respect the right of naysayers to their personal opinion, but respectfully refuse to heed their warnings and admonitions. I will not respond to the futile efforts to distract our attention. I will kick three positive and productive threads for every doomsday thread I see. I am not going anywhere until this battle is won and our future is secure for our children.

Thank you Reality for your call to action.

[IAMREALITY]

28. Thank You, Seito, For Fighting Right Beside Me n/t

[Kellis]

22. I agree 100%

EXCELLENT POST IAMREALITY:yourock:

There is a HUGE difference between objectivity/skepticism and "FreeperMentality negativity.Usually you can tell right off the bat who the supporters of our cause are and who is just in here being negative for other reasons.

I personally have never found a reason to fight or argue with ANY one here(except trolls that is).I have never felt a reason to discourage or put someone down for their hope and hard work.I just don't see a reason for it except if you are a troll with a goal.

Those people that come in here to negate our cause must realize by now that we ARE NOT going away.WE WILL NOT shut up.We WILL NOT stop our investigation and questions.

Never Quit DUers.The Fight Has Just Begun!

[intelle]

24. I agree wholeheartedly, IAMReality

I wanted to add that I think a lot of us that joined in November have been unfairly maligned as freepers if we express distrust. This whole issue of old members being more credible than new members is bogus, IMO.

I am sure there are some insincere posters who pop up in discussions, but, these are usually ferreted out because there is nothing useful offered in their posts, EXCEPT dissent.

But, just because someone has less than 1000 posts, or who has been here for a short time doesn't mean that that person is any more likely to be insincere than the high posters/long-timers.

I have to admit that the insinuations I have been seeing have, at times, made me question why I ever came here.

It is posters like you, however, who validate the reason why...it is a good place to be.

:hi:

[zann725]

47. I agree with your comment about 'newbies' being called 'freepers'

I was going to post a similar comment myself. Like many, I joined after the Elections NOT because I'm a 'freeper,' but because I was soooo depressed about the Election, and was exacerbated about the media lock-down. I was pleased to find at DU a warm, welcoming, well-informed group with as much interest in Democracy and politics as I have. I was particularly touched by how 'newbies' were welcomed by old-timers, and I felt 'at-home.' But in the last few days, there have been numerous threads hostilely attacking 'newbies'...calling them 'freepers-in-disguise'...telling others to suspect us, and ignore our posts. Though not a nay-sayer by nature, OR here...I found that many times my 'posts' were removed from the threads.

I like DU, but we should NOT be discouraging growing numbers by 'back-biting'...since power is in numbers. While I agree that there were a few too many threads of people attacking Kerry or the Dem's, or saying it was 'too late' to contest the election...let's not discourage 'free speech' here too. Maybe a special section of the site should be set aside for those who choose to debate that angle among themselves.

I would like to feel that all Dems are welcome here, regardless of their number of posts.

[intelle]

49. Thank you zann725

I joined for the same reason. I couldn't believe that election fraud was being so openly discussed because I couldn't get anyone at work or elsewhere to talk about it.

I don't think we should be placed in a position to have to prove ourselves. After all, in a court of law, you are innocent until proven guilty. Whatever happened to giving folks the benefit of the doubt?

On the other hand, I have seen the defeatist threads and posts I believe this thread is addressing, and I know for myself, it is depressing to read them. I want to believe that we will win. For my peace of mind, I have to believe it.

[IAMREALITY]

51. I want to make clear

I am not addressing freepers in this thread. Freepers are exposed rather quickly and I generally try not to waste time on them.

This thread was actually a message to real DU'rs. I am not saying they shouldn't be allowed on DU, shouldn't be allowed to offer dissenting opinion, and am definitely not calling them freepers.

The point of the message is that we are all here on this part of DU to fight for the exposure of the fraud that took place and the eventual restoration of our democracy. I think it is completely ok for members to offer opposing opinions on if evidence is legitimate or not, whether results of numbers crunching are sound or not. Whether opinions of media coverage are positive or negative. Whether we choose to believe in Madsen, Bev, Clint, etc.. Opposing opinions as to whether the vote was rigged this way, or that way.

But all of those posts STILL have one thing in common. They are still in context linked to the common fight of this forum of believing fraud took place, and trying to fight the battle to expose it. The passion of the opposing views generally is due to wanting to win, but thinking this may not be the best evidence to be used to get there, the best person to use as a spokesperson, etc..

When someone posts a thread to the masses on THIS forum, declaring that we cannot win, that the fight is futile, etc..., then it is simply serving no other purpose then to weaken the whole reason we are all here, to not lose hope and to continue to fight whether we disagree with the methods of getting there or not.

This thread is in short to say disagree as much as you want with how we are going about the battle, but if you are not part of the battle, or no longer willing to fight it, there are many other forums for you to now proceed to where you could post away without doing harm to the very CORE of the belief of the thread you are in. That is why I ask for them to walk quietly to a different DU thread. They are ALLOWED to no longer want to fight the fight, but that does not give them the right to announce it to the very forum fighting so hard, just to see if they can take other 'troops' with them.

[intelle]

55. I understood that, IAMReality

I mentioned the "freeper" thing as sometimes, when one is questioning, it does not mean that one is giving up, or that one is trying to disrupt. Some of the newer threads here are point blank accusing newbies of being freepers if they express doubt, or even futility.

I have every confidence we will win.

[IAMREALITY]

56. Intelle

I know :)

I felt the need for a bit now to post what I did above, and figured yours was as good a post as any to tack on to :)

[Donailin]

115. But who grants you authority to say this?

""This thread is in short to say disagree as much as you want with how we are going about the battle, but if you are not part of the battle, or no longer willing to fight it, there are many other forums for you to now proceed to where you could post away without doing harm to the very CORE of the belief of the thread you are in. That is why I ask for them to walk quietly to a different DU thread. They are ALLOWED to no longer want to fight the fight, but that does not give them the right to announce it to the very forum fighting so hard, just to see if they can take other 'troops' with them."

You're just another poster, not BoardLord.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IAMREALITY]

137. Wrong

"You're just another poster, not BoardLord."

I AM REALITY...

...AND REALITY HAS SPOKEN.

[Donailin]

139. Too tired

to get into this tonight.

I'll tell you who you should address your OP to: JFK.

One word from him: Fraud.

That's all the energizing I would need. And it is NOT an unreasonable request.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

25. We can win if this becomes a Constitutional Crisis.

If it is proven by January 6th that Kerry won Ohio, the Ohio Dems can give to congress their own electoral ballot. Then all hell will break lose! This will not be kept a big secret and everyone will know that Kerry won. Do you think that career GOPers are going to risk their careers for Bush?

At the same time, there is going to have to be mass ground action on the part of Americans. Remember, the largest population are the baby boomers, and we were the ones that helped stop the war in Vietnam. Think about the unions that backed Kerry. Imagine if they gave directives to have their people no show for work in protest? Think of all of the college students that voted for the first time? There can be a ground swell the likes that the Ukraine hasn't seen.

Meanwhile, a friend of mine recommended getting orange ribbons and putting them on car antennae. I'm going to the store later to get mine.

Please, there is a Huge Chance that we can overturn this!

[forgethell]

27. Now if only we had

some PROOF. Not rumor, not statistical analysis, not even somebody coming forward to say he did it without any documentary substantiation. What we actually need is PROOF! A letter in Karl Rove's handwriting with his finger prints all over, outling the strateg or telling Diebold exactly how many votes he need in each precint.

anything short of that is not going to convince the Republican base, or enough Congress people to make a difference, IMO. I could be wrongm of course, but I am adjusting my lifestyle and financial choices to 4 more years.

But who knows? Maybe we'll all have a Merry Christmas

[pgh_dem]

42. Standards of proof

I think the reason some of those (okay, me too, but I'm also a newbie) who believe the election was rigged start smelling troll is this impossibly high standard of proof.
Do we have subpoena power? Can we get search warrants to look through Rove's computers and files? Can we compel suspects to testify under oath?
The answer to those questions is no.
Hell, even a US Rep like John Conyers has to hold a 'forum' instead of a 'hearing', and send out polite requests for information from Blackwell etc. instead of subpoenas.
The GAO has no enforcement capability, not to mention its investigation will likely conclude some time in April, which is too late to do anything useful with the information.
So what can a bunch of people writing on web groups do to find PROOF in all caps?
I don't know, but I suggest that we just keep putting the circumstantial evidence we *are* able to obtain in front of the media, our congresspeople, equal rights activists, etc.
Our analyses or newspaper clippings collections may not be PROOF, but they can constitute 'reasonable suspicion' that the official explanation stinks.
One other suggestion is to get up from behind the keyboards and find some people to rally with. I drove 3.5 hours to Columbus on Saturday to stand with hundreds of other people who think this election stinks.
Will 400-700 (depending on who you ask) people cause B*sh to step down, Rove to turn himself in, the Repubs in Congress to support nationwide voting standards with complete transparent auditability?
Doubt it.
What about 400,000? or 4 million? or 40 million?
It worked in Ukraine...why not here?

[forgethell]

45. That some fraud occurred

is not, in my mind at least, in doubt. It's an election, isn't it? But the standards of proof are not that high. Suspicion and "studies" are not evidence. And, not only would we have to prove that fraud occurred, but that it was substantial enough to affect the outcome of the election. And, probably that * was personally involved, himself.

Then, say that the inauguration had taken place already. do you suppose that a Republican congress is going to impeach? I just think that we are wasting energy dreaming of a different outcome, because I don't think it can happen in the time remaining.

but I could be wrong. So keep trying. I wish you well. I especially think efforts should be applied to making sure there is a paper trail so that every vote counts, that all votes are legal votes (no dead people, no non-citizens, that there are clear standards for validly cast votes so that if a recount is necessary, there is no need for guesswork, that all such recounts be publicly conducted. I think in an honest election, our side, the side with better ideas, will generally win. But I am not so much concerned with corruption and fraud at the top. I think the leaders have enough sense to insulate themselves from it. I am concerned about fraud at the local and precinct level.

[SmokingJacket]

138. We need a thorough investigation before we have

definitive proof.

Right now we just have clues, hints: but enough to call for investigation after investigation.

[BeFree]

29. That's the Spirit, Omm. This's our Mantra,!

And in the end,
and Kerry has won
people will see
our standing up
for their democracy.

Kerry On!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

76. Lol BeFree! Great Mantra! I have a great mantra that......

I use to ward off illness, and it might work for this too!

I refuse to be sick!

Just change that to:

I refuse Bush as President!

:)

[SammyWinstonJack]

94. I REFUSE bush* PERIOD!

To me, he doesn't exist. And yes I BELIEVE there was massive voter fraud and I ALSO BELIEVE that bush* was/is fully aware of it. bush* has been cheating and manipulating people to get to the place he's at right now, it's the only way he has been able to 'achieve' anything in his whole pathetic, miserable life. The arrogant asshole knew he was going to 'win' and he said so on more then one occasion. I want OHIO investigated fully! AND when KERRY is shown to be the clear WINNER as I know he will be, I WANT bush* throw out in the street along with rest of the garbage that follows him around.

[IAMREALITY]

96. WOOOHOOOOO Blue State

:yourock:

[Razorback_Democrat]

38. I Hope So!

but even if we don't

we NEED to show the corruption and problems for what they are so that changes can be made!

no more paperless ballot systems

[hijinx87]

well, THAT certainly advances the debate.

since will pitt's famous (notorious?) "FUCK the (fill in the blank)" thread, there seems to be a contest to see who can create the most divisive and outrageous post to DU.

but, like it or not, there are only so many ways to phrase the argument, "FUCK everybody that doesn't think like me", and as a result, we are "blessed" with basically the same thoughtless stink bomb a dozen times a day.

groovy. let's eat each other up. rove is already started on 2006 AND 2008, and we are merrily cooperating.

[IAMREALITY]

33. Obviously

You didn't understand the context of the thread one iota. Doesn't matter though, it is obvious to see you just wanted to rant that rhetoric anyway regardless of whether or not it was in context.

It is in no way, however, an accurate portrayal of the message of this thread. I would suggest you go back and re-read so as to get a more accurate perspective.

[hijinx87]

35. You're absolutely right

Your post didn't mean "FUCK everybody that doesn't think like me". It meant "RESPECTFULLY FUCK everybody that doesn't think like me".

huge difference. my bad.

[IAMREALITY]

41. I had a feeling you wouldn't get it.

But you have a right to your opinion, misguided or not.

[hijinx87]

74. another spin?

"RESPECTFULLY FUCK all the MORONS that don't think like me".

[Cronus Protagonist]

84. You're flying off the handle here

Did Karl not smile at you during the prayer breakfast this morning?

This thread is not about FUCKING anyone. It was a request, or a demand if you prefer, that people who have negativity or defeatist points of view to make limit their postings to threads where defeatism is more appropriate - like the lounge, perhaps, where someone will rub your back or something.

I see you decline the request and insist on pissing on the front lines. You managed to exemplify the topic at hand for us all to see. Good work!

Have a nice day, and save yourself some grief; I believe there's a hot thread in the "old and dusty books" forum where you can post something about your spanking new bible or whatever....




http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[tngledwebb]

32. Camus said-

'Despair is the one sin we are not permitted.'

[Cronus Protagonist]

85. I said

"Despair is the flip side of hope neither one is part of any coin I want to be spending."

- I just thought I would share that.




http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[reality_bites]

34. "YOU ARE EITHER WITH US OR AGAINST US" - GEORGE BUSH

[Razorback_Democrat]

36. And since I'm not with him, I am against him

are you?

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[reality_bites]

40. I'm pointing out how similar...

this post is to remarks made by George Bush. You guys are actually saying that if I don't agree with you, then shut-up. That sounds like George Bush to me.

[Skip Intro]

62. Yeah, that's the way it reads to me as well.

[Razorback_Democrat]

87. Be friendly!

:+

no one wants to quiet you

your post is still here

[New Earth]

54. lol woot

[reality_bites]

39. Sounds a little like...

the republicans when they say we can't be critical of the troops in a time of war - it's not being patriotic.

I mean it is simply uncanny how similar these remarks are to what we hear from conservatives about the war effort.

"Someone who does not support the cause does NOT have the right to address the group as a whole. The Army of Strength does not need to hear that one of their troops has failed, has fled, has given up hope, or has laid down their weapon. The Army of Strength only cares about words of encouragement, words of optimism, words epitomizing that failure is not an option. Anything less only serves to destroy that Army of Strength, to weaken it, and No ARMY SHOULD BE WEAKENED WHEN IN THE THICK OF A BATTLE."

[IAMREALITY]

43. And just Whyyyyyyyy do the conservatives remark that way

Because THEY WANTED TO WIN. THEIR GOAL WAS TO WIN.

Now yes, they cheated to do it, but that point is moot in the context of this discussion.

The point is we have the same goal. THE GOAL TO WIN. We need not cheat, however. Truth will win for us.

[reality_bites]

44. Honestly, it looks to me like...

...you believe your various theories can't stand scrutiny. Why else would you spend valuable time on this thread instead of substantive threads ?

For every DUer that posts a disagreement with some of these theories, there are probably dozens (a guess) of others who remain silent. Has it occurred to you that there MAY be more DUers that don't agree with your theories than there are that do ? I can't prove there are, but you can't prove there aren't. That's enough for me to give dissenters the benefit of doubt. Since DUers who think some of the theories on DU are not supported by evidence may exceed the proponents of these theories, dissenters should be able to post as many dissenting threads as they desire.

[catcatcat]

46. you can add me to that number...

...this so much smacks of * to me that it's making me
sick to see it posted here -- it's a pure call for
censorship, just like another post by the same author
i saw not so long ago: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x123058#123069

i'm sorry, but this is really troubling me.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[catcatcat]

50. i said just what i said...

...your words are your own. i don't define myself by my post
count, and i wont accept your definition of me in those terms.
i think there was a better way to handle the 'disinformation'
post -- you could simply have related what you knew *in a gentle
way* to the poster and suggested that maybe she would like to
edit her post so as not to draw unnecessary attention to it.
your post seemed threatening and intimidating, much like the
current one. we're all thinking, sentient beings here -- i don't
think we'll benefit much from having someone barking orders at us.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[catcatcat]

58. okay, i've said about all i have to say to you - just one last thing...

...since you're so concerned about length of DU
membership/number of posts, why don't you enable
your profile and let everyone else see how long
you've been here...i've seen at least a few
people with more posts than you that have been
here a shorter time than even i. again, it's
nothing that matters to me, but it would be the
right thing to do since it is so important to you.

cheers,
k

[IAMREALITY]

61. That's Not What Is Important To Me

There are people who have been here a day who post things that blow my mind, and I am grateful for.

It is not how long someone's been here, it is their level of understanding of what we are doing here. Big Difference.

[Stephanie]

98. Hah! Good point!

And yet the profile is still disabled.

Welcome to DU catcatcat.

[IAMREALITY]

99. To Each Their Own

But in its context I thought the point was completely Moot. See my Reply above.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[catcatcat]

109. Thanks!! very appreciative of your welcome!!! (n/t)

[Catherine Vincent]

53. Hear hear!

Waiting on poster Imajika (sp?) to post on this.

[New Earth]

57. oh boy we're all gonna listen then

:eyes:

[kerry-is-my-prez]

59. No-one should give up until "inaugeration." THEN we start impeachment

procedures.

[Skip Intro]

60. Oh really. Do I salute now?

Will you next establish free speech zones for us?


I'll define when and where I speak my mind, thank you.


This so much reminds me of your "I would never question him or his motives" line from last night.

Good luck selling blind faith and conformity here.

[IAMREALITY]

63. Ya know all I see you do is take things out of context

Much like you took that line from last night out of context, same as you are taking this thread out of context.

And yes, you can define when and where you will speak your mind. It is your choice whether you want to help us fight, not help at all, or help them to help us lose it.

I, my DU brother, will always choose to only take part in things that can Help us to win, rather then Help us to lose or not help at all.

To each their own though.

[Skip Intro]

64. I'm either with you or with "them": eh?

Not reality.

[IAMREALITY]

66. Fair Enough

Post Edited.

:)

[operafred]

70. we MUST win

we must win or all those no paper trail leaving machines will be everywhere and any future elections become totally moot.

[IAMREALITY]

72. Operafred

Welcome To DU!

:toast:

[New Earth]

68. i think the wrong people are being offended

it's not just 'new members with low post counts'. it's new members with low OR high post counts who have nothing positive whatsoever to add to the conversation in these forums. of course balance is healthy, but most of the people working on or concentrating on these issues COME TO THIS FORUM to feed on eachother's work and positivity, and be with others of like mind. this is a sensitive time, and the people who come here to purposely disrupt the mood should be ashamed of themselves and find something better to do with their time.

[IAMREALITY]

71. Faye

:toast:

[New Earth]

73. reality

:hug:

[hijinx87]

75. sheeesh. get a room.

:placekeeper for heretofore unknown humping smiley:

[New Earth]

80. lol

:o

[Stephanie]

77. Our Cause?

What exactly is Our Cause? Is Your Cause My Cause? Somehow I doubt it.

[IAMREALITY]

78. Well Stephanie

'Our Cause' in this context, is a collaborative effort to seek truth. To expose the fraudulent activity of the 2004 election and even other past elections. It is an effort to restore integrity to our great democracy. It is a cause to make sure that each vote counts, and counts only once, for the intent of the voter. It is a cause to make sure voters aren't disenfranchised. It is a cause to make sure the rights to vote are protected. A cause to make sure anybody willing to vote, and able to vote, can vote. It is a cause to make sure the truth is told. That people are made aware of the injustices that were perpetrated. It is a cause to ensure for our children, and their children, that they can trust in the values of a democracy. It is to make certain that they do not grow up in a country turned from democracy to fascism. It is a cause to fight for what is right, what is just, what is noble. It is a cause to rid ourselves of corruption, deceit, fraud, dishonor, and brainwashing. It is a cause to ensure that this great country that we call America can have her honor restored.

It is a cause which we WILL win.

Now if this is NOT your cause, then I'd rather not know what your cause is. If it is your cause, then I look forward to working with you to win it.

[Stephanie]

81. Sounds good on paper but I will not take orders from you or anyone else

And I don't like the dictatorial tone of your post, nor do I agree to work with you on anything.

[IAMREALITY]

90. No One Is Giving You Orders

My God It's amazing how a postive thread can be the catalyst for people to voice such overdramatic outcry.

No One is giving you orders. If someone wants to post headers that only serve to defeat what we are working for, demotivate those who are fragile, inject negativity into our fight, and overall offer nothing positive to our cause, well who can stop them. They can do as they please. But they should still be ashamed of themselves for doing so. Me? Thanks maam, but I'll stick to positive reassurance.

No Orders here, just strong recommendations. Let me ask you, if you were part of a hockey team in the middle of game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals, and you were in the locker room and some weak ass teammate declared 'we can't do it, we just can't win', what would you prefer, for the other team members to fall prey to the weakness, lose their spirit, and all shout out 'hey, he may have a point, we can't win', or would you rather the coach, or any strong team member, stand up and say "To HELL WITH THAT, Don't listen to that shit. We ARE good enough. We ARE strong enough. We CAN win, and we WILL win.

GET IT?
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Stephanie]

95. Who died and made you Coach?

Not playing in your sandbox. And spare me the rolly eyes. Offensive all around. Bye!

[IAMREALITY]

97. Unless

You can respond to the argument, and issue any legitimate return argument as to what in the world it actually is that you disagree with, there can be no value in the discussion.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[hijinx87]

119. the most offensive aspect of the whole thing . . .

is the demand for a sort of "purity of thought"; if you don't think according to the given parameters, you are quite literally invited out of the progressive movement. I'm sure I needn't point out the irony.

[IAMREALITY]

120. Oh Really

I dare you to point out WHERE in the original thread I am calling for a Purity of Thought. I Challenge you to back up the claim that the original post is in any way inviting people out of the progressive movement.

The above post is nothing but the worst of spin and is baseless, but then again that is a current theme connecting most of the negative posts on this thread.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[hijinx87]

124. you don't have to look much further than the title of the thread:

"Think We Can't Win? Think Our Cause Is Futile? Quietly Walk To The Door". And please don't bother with your standard "you don't understand my post" response. I think I understand it plenty.

[IAMREALITY]

126. Ever Hear Of Don't Judge A Book By Its Cover???

Don't really care what you ask, I'm gonna say it anyway. Read more than just the title. How bout reading the whole thing, over and over, till it is understood, cause it still really seems to me that you are not grasping the concept of the thread.

And once you are done, then please respond with an intelligent argument to show what I asked earlier.

:dunce:

[McCamy Taylor]

79. excellent post

People should keep in mind that this is not a place for private musing or soul searching, this forum is a group endeavour, and while it is ok for people to address their fears in order to have others cheer them up, the general trend of all posts should be towards the goal of seeing the right thing done.

The right thing in this case is making sure that every vote is counted, and if anyone did not get to vote finding out why and if any vote was counted incorrectly determining how it happened. Since an election is on the line, the goal includes getting this done as quickly as possible.

Anything that seems to stands in the way of that goal....like apathy, despair or boredom...is counterproductive. In a forum like this, anything that is counterproductive should be assumed to be the work of a committee of Freepers posting under a pseudonym.

[T Town Jake]

82. So, you're in charge around here now, huh?...

...why didn't you just sticky this to the top then, for all to see and obey? /snicker...

[IAMREALITY]

92. The Voice Of Truth, The Collective Will To Fight,

The Overwhelming Show of Strength From the Majority

THAT is what is in charge around here.

[Viktor Runeberg]

100. The military metaphor

The military metaphor sucks. But there are other ways to make the point, or another point that will server the same good. Oh heck, let's stay with military for a moment. We aren't the troops, we're the scouts, dressed like the Indians we are and far ahead of Generals Kerry, Dean and their armies. We're looking for a way through; and we're looking for enemy AmBushes. For those who look at some of the roads ahead and say, "Shit man, we just can't make it that way," that's fine. As long as they try some other road. Each scout should take the territory we're individually best at navigating. But no scout should discourage another scout from taking a road, just because the first scout is scared of it. However, cautions about taking enough rations or water in the canteen or cold weather gear or ammunition are always worth hearing, even from those who won't go along on a particular mission.

But screw the troops metaphor. Troops are disciplined, taught not to think for themselves, units, drones, largely to be replaced by machines as soon as we can invent them good enough. Scouts on the other hand, we're the living essence of humanity's curiousity, intuition, perserverance, and refusal to take a proven road if a new, better one may be found. What the Democrats need are scouts, blending into the local landscapes and populations, but working to map the ways to bring the armies through to victory. We do not wear uniforms; we do not think uniformly; our minds represent the wild beyond more than the set ways of civilization, the future more than the past. All else is drudge.

[T Town Jake]

102. All that's very fine and well....

...just as long as one of the "scouts" doesn't attempt to promote themselves to "Chief" (to use your metaphor, which I'm not entirely comfortable with as a person with some Native American familial heritage) and starts issuing marching orders. This is a discussion forum, not an on line pep rally.

[IAMREALITY]

104. No One Is Acting As Chief

It disappoints me to all sorts of levels how the thread has been spun. I have had enough 'Spin' this election, thank you. If you want more I'll repost from above:

My God It's amazing how a postive thread can be the catalyst for people to voice such overdramatic outcry.

No One is giving you orders. If someone wants to post headers that only serve to defeat what we are working for, demotivate those who are fragile, inject negativity into our fight, and overall offer nothing positive to our cause, well who can stop them. They can do as they please. But they should still be ashamed of themselves for doing so. Me? Thanks maam, but I'll stick to positive reassurance.

No Orders here, just strong recommendations. Let me ask you, if you were part of a hockey team in the middle of game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals, and you were in the locker room and some weak ass teammate declared 'we can't do it, we just can't win', what would you prefer, for the other team members to fall prey to the weakness, lose their spirit, and all shout out 'hey, he may have a point, we can't win', or would you rather the coach, or any strong team member, stand up and say "To HELL WITH THAT, Don't listen to that shit. We ARE good enough. We ARE strong enough. We CAN win, and we WILL win.

:eyes:

[MRKARNO]

83. and "if you are really offended...

you gotta go to Israel then"-Bill O'Reilly

[Igel]

93. Haven't heard a good "Crush the defeatists" rant for a long time. n/t

[snot]

103. Prioritize actions that appear most helpful

There is NO alternative to continuing to try to identify and take actions that might helpful.

If anyone thinks a particular course of action is futile, their best course is to identify a better one.

[IAMREALITY]

105. Very True

It would be far more becoming of certain posters if they didn't just attack an argument, or a poster, but instead backed up their reasoning with anything of substance, or moreso offered an ALTERNATIVE argument.

:)

[catcatcat]

110. you're right...

...like free speech -- it's a wonderful thing, and
very productive insomuch as it supports the
interchange of ideas.

love,
k

[Vinnie From Indy]

106. I'll be your Huckleberry!

Think We Can't Win? Think Our Cause Is Futile? Quietly Walk To The Door

Firstly, do you validate parking?

Secondly, who made you the big toe on this foot? It could very well be that some of us don't think we can win every battle that is outlined on these boards. There are many of us that think that some of the causes being espoused are just plain silly.

Only Leaders have that right. Only Leaders have the right to address the group as a whole

Is there a leader board around here that I missed? Please let me know what the pecking order is so I don't pee in the wrong sandbox.

If someone no longer wants to support our cause, fine. But there is a time and a place to speak such opinion.

But, you said "only leaders have the right to address the group as a whole". Now you are just plain confusing me.

The Army of Strength does not need to hear that one of their troops has failed, has fled, has given up hope, or has laid down their weapon

What if he just went into town to get hammered and chase hookers? Is that OK to talk about? What if the one of the troops has given up hope and just wants a hug? Is he allowed to address "the group as a whole"? What if he laid down his weapon and just wants to ask the "group as a whole" if they saw it or know where it is?

I think you probably are a wonderful person that cares very deeply about these issues and your rant was just poorly written. I do not doubt for a second that you care and I appreciate your tortured imitation of Patton, but there is a great deal of strength to be derived from debate, dissent and skepticism. If an argument cannot stand up to scrutiny on these boards, it hasn't a prayer in the wider world. I agree with some points made on these boards, disagree with others and am waiting for further developments on the rest. I, for one, welcome skeptical inquiry regardless of the newbie factor.

[IAMREALITY]

107. Amazing How Many Of You Still Just Aren't Getting It

Let me Dumb it down.

People can offer whatever differing opinions they want. They can ask for support, they can debate evidence as to its value, as can be seen by my now MULTIPLE posts I have no qualms with that.

It is those that post a thread, SOLELY for defeatism and self-serving purposes, with no more intent then to demoralize us, that I DO in fact have qualms with.

The inspiration for this thread was a thread earlier declaring in short "I give up. No way we are gonna win. No way there was enough fraud to overturn the election. Nope. We lost. I Give up the fight. We can't do it. Not enough fraud is there". Now mind you, that was not a post, which I wouldn't have minded, but a thread front and center for all to see.

I am done defending this thread to those that look for any reason to be contrary and cause trouble. I have faith that those DU'rs that are true to the cause understand EXACTLY what this thread is about, without feeling the need to be completely nit-picky over every word of it.

[Donailin]

114. No.

"I have faith that those DU'rs that are true to the cause "

You simply do not appear to be qualified to make that determination.

This cause is not a "walk in lockstep" cause. That would be the party of the red states, dear.

[IAMREALITY]

122. And You?

And are you qualified? Doesn't appear so.

No one has asked for a lockstep cause. I challenge you also to back up your ludicrous claims.

It seems in this thread that 'certain' posters are just dyingggg to get their face time, yet are offering no substance to back up any of their completely off the mark accusations. So step to the plate, I'd love for you to substantially support your argument that anyone has asked this to be a 'walk in lockstep' cause.

I look forward to your response, dear.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[catcatcat]

108. i love it...

...thank you! you're great!!

[Cyclical]

118. Brand-Newbie's 2 cents

(Why the hell isn't there a cents symbol on the keyboard?)

Vinnie voiced perfectly, in my estimation, the reason I chose to register here now after lurking for a month.

"What if the one of the troops has given up hope and just wants a hug? Is he allowed to address "the group as a whole"? What if he laid down his weapon and just wants to ask the "group as a whole" if they saw it or know where it is?"

I know that it's a good cause... but there isn't much hope anywhere else. Is it okay to post one's doubts, as long as they are couched in an appropriate amount of apologetic self-flagellation?

Like, say (hypothetically) that I've been reading here since about 2am on Nov. 3, but am having a really hard time, right now, swallowing the whole "John Kerry's just waiting for the opportune moment" spiel. Can I say that without being called a newbie freeper? Can I expect to be lifted by this community? Cos I really would rather not be chased off from a place that seems to promote solidarity amongst people with common ideals.

Can one say "nay" without being a nay-sayer?

[Donailin]

111. Funny you say this:

"If you no longer have the strength, the will, the courage, or the fortitude to continue to fight along side us, then lay down your weapon quietly and walk away from the battle. Do NOT lay down your weapon, walk to the front lines, ask for everybody's attention, and tell everybody that we can't win, that the battle is useless, that there is no hope. "

Which one is Kerry doing?

As for those here posting pessimism, it's human and natural. The situation is depressing, and this forum is a place to express it. On the good days of optimism, that gets posted too. I notice many people here have up and down days, and that is NATURAL. One day there's a glimmer of hope and the next there is none. And for the past four years it has been this way. Each day you think, No way is Bush gonna get out of this one. He's fucked up so bad now he'll be impeached any moment. The truth is out, NO WMD, he'll never be re-elected. The surplus is a deficit, he'll never be re-elected. The abugraib business assures he'll never be elected. The CIA outting. The debates, The wire on his back. His ineptitude. His arrogance. His immoral superiority.

Four fucking years of living one surreal day after the next and then what? Stolen election. It is, at times, too much to bear. It is, at times, seemingly the worse thing most of us have ever gone through. I would think cancer is like this. When will it fucking go away???It is traumatic. It has taken it's toll. I ask myself: How much longer can I obsess? I desperately want my old life back, my old world back. Selfish? you bet. Can you blame me? No. How hard it is to operate in the world knowing things that others don't.

As for your troops analogy. I'm a pacifist. I can't relate to it at all. I can relate to being part of a movement, of a counter culture, but not an army.

[IAMREALITY]

123. On that post I almost totally agree with you.

Only problem is that I NEVER, in the original post, discouraged opposing viewpoints or moments of sadness. Actually, I believe I encouraged it.

The original thread was addressing a COMPLETELY different aspect. Try reading it again to see if you can understand the context, finally.

[Pooka Fey]

112. Thank you for your words of wisdom.

[malatesta1137]

113. Kerry was the first

who thought he couldn't win, the first who thought our cause is futile, the first who quietly walked out the door. It happened on Nov 3.

You should send this manifest to him, not us.

[Oak2004]

117. The way I figure it this is going to be a very long war regardless

If we prove fraud and inaugurate Kerry, the battles will be uncovering and destroying all the pockets of fascism involved in subverting our democracy.

If we prove fraud yet don't inaugurate Kerry, well, then we have to take our nation back, by any means necessary.

If we don't prove fraud to a reasonable legal standard, we still have to investigate and we still have to take our nation back. Even if the unlikely occurred and Bush was elected "fairly", these people still intend to destroy American democracy, and therefore they are under no circumstances a legitimate government.

So it's a long war. And IMHO the many missions of the various Divisions of our Army all contribute to the one end which will occur: we will win. After all, we are armed with the most potent weapon on earth: the truth. It may take weeks, months, years, or decades, but if we dig in and commit ourselves to our roles in the fight, we will win.

[SmallFatCat]

121. Worrying sentiment

"Someone who does not support the cause does NOT have the right to address the group as a whole"

erm, really?

[robbedvoter]

125. Absolutely not futile - HAS TO BE DONE!. The result....well.

I know what BFEE has invested in this - it's power or jail for them. OTOH, our side is ignorant/indiferent for the most part. If nothing else, this should enlighten more people to the fact that, once again, we won, that we are the majority, that we don't have to change out message and cowtow to the thieves and that to go through the same charade called "election" again is insanity.
If all these objective are achieved, i'll consider a victory. If the result is overturned, i'll consider a miracle.

[Snivi Yllom]

127. If you are referring to the Democratic party of the future, no.

If you are referring to the Democratic party of the future, no. They can win with substantial change in the manner that they choose candidates and conduct a campaign. If you mean improving the rights of voters, no, that is a worthy cause, perhaps the ultimate cause.

If you are referring to Kerry actually winning the election, yes it is over. No way, no how will the election be overturned.

[xtreme69]

128. I couldn't agree more friend

I couldn't agree with you more. No army should be weakened while in the thick of battle. So tell me this: Why is that the exact thing you all are doing to our troops who are in the thick of a real battle, with bullets flying and people dying, yet your ideological battle is off limits to dissent? Just a thought.

[Mandate My Ass]

129. Who here is "weakening" the army, and how are they doing that?

"YOU ALL?" Who is YOU ALL? You're not one of us? Who are you? Enquiring minds....

[IAMREALITY]

130. No One Is

Especially when it seems the majority of our troops actually voted for Kerry.

So just ignore such stupidity.

:)

[Mandate My Ass]

131. My bad

20 seconds of my life wasted on "___________." :hurts:

[xtreme69]

133. I would have to disagree with that statement

I recommend heading to a military base and talking to some troops.

[xtreme69]

132. Shall know

Hey, the lead post talks about "defeatism" and how it affects the morale of the troops at "war". I agree with that completely. Do any of you think the war in Iraq is "winnable"? If I had to venture a guess, I would say no...and I would also say that is defeatism. Therefore I would, according to the lead post, deduce that by his logic, you are weakening our troops resolve.

I mean that is what he's saying right? If you don't think we can win, shut up and go away. Don't talk to those who are still in the fight about your concerns, because it will only weaken their resolve to fight on. Basic psychology really...and I agree with him totally.

[Mandate My Ass]

134. Erm, I don't think anybody here went to Iraq and got in a soldier's

face and told him to give up. What is going on there is being done in my name and tax dollars and if I want to criticize it I will. My problem is with the boneheads who went in on shaky evidence without sufficient troops, sufficient materials, a game plan, a real coalition, an exit strategy etc. etc. That war is being fought in my name with my money so I have a stake in it.

I can't imagine any circumstance in which criticism of policies that endanger our troops could possibly negatively affect troop morale.

However, the vote fraud fighters are working their asses of and raising their own money to do a job that our elected officials have seen fit to ignore though they have sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution. They are public servants who have the luxury to pick and choose which issues they address and people here are picking up the slack.

Apples and oranges, my good buddy.

[IAMREALITY]

135. NO ONE SAID WE CAN'T WIN IN IRAQ

We do feel, however, that winning will be far easier and come far sooner with competent leadership, an actual plan, and a decline in the mass number of failure this current pathetic administration has undertaken.

It is ok though, our President-Elect John Kerry will clean things up over there, and the troops morale will skyrocket!

[xtreme69]

136. Now that's a message :)

See, I'm beginning to like you more and more Reality :) My biggest concern is victory in Iraq and the safety of the young men and women fighting there, as well as the safety and security of the innocents of Iraq. Any plan that is to their benefit, I can support. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor.

[Imagevision]

140. I believe Ohio vote fraud will make Watergate look pale in comparison