What Does It Take To Get This Election Thrown Out

[PennyMan]

What Does It Take To Get This Election Thrown Out. Day After Day, State After State, There Is More And More Evidence Of Fraud. Surely, If The
Ukraine Can Get It Done, Why Can't The USA. We Are Suppose To Be One Of The Countries That Other Countries Look Up To. This Can't Be
Good For Us.

[proudtobeadem]

1. Do you know if any presidential or

other election has ever been thrown out? If there has then that would be a precedent.

[Zan_of_Texas]

11. Right now, in NC, they are having to revote. November 2004 election

Carteret, NC lost 4000 due to a problem with their Unilect machines. No way to retrieve the votes.

They will revote -- anyone whose vote did not register (unclear how they know?) or who did not attempt to vote the first time, gets to vote again.

Carteret County voters to get second chance

December 01,2004
Barry Smith
Freedom Raleigh Bureau
Sun Journal
http://www.newbernsj.com/SiteProcessor.cfm?Template=/GlobalTemplates/Details.cfm&StoryID=18726&Section=Local

RALEIGH - Carteret County residents whose votes were lost by a computer - along with others who did not vote on Nov. 2 - will get another opportunity to cast their ballots.
The State Board of Elections on Tuesday voted to hold a special election in the county for the agriculture commissioner's race. The date for the election has not been set. Votes from the special election would be added to those who voted on Nov. 2 and others whose early voting ballots were recorded by the UniLect voting equipment.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carteret County Says It's Ready For New Election

3:05 pm EST December 1, 2004
http://www.wxii12.com/politics/3962688/detail.html

RALEIGH -- An election official in Carteret County said the county will be prepared to let up to 24,000 people vote in a special election in January to determine the next agriculture commissioner.
The election was ordered by the state Board of Elections because the lost votes are greater than the 2,287-vote lead Republican Steve Troxler currently has over Democratic incumbent Britt Cobb.

[Twist_U_Up]

12. You should start a post with this nice find wow

[Zan_of_Texas]

14. Okay, I will. Thanks.

[Quakerfriend]

2. I am beginning to wonder myself

KO just had a report on the OH recount. He also mentioned the Conyers hearings tomorrow and said that Mitofsky has respectfully declined to attend and stated in a letter (to Conyers) that "He is not at liberty to release the exit polls". It makes me feel that we MUST turn out in the streets in order for anything to happen. If the media is keeping 99% of the pop'n in the dark about what is going on, I just don't see what can be done.;) Oh, I am praying that K/E are flying under the radar....

[ooglymoogly]

3. a miracle

and some yelling and screaming and constant vigilance

[RaulVB]

4. Only massive civil disobedience will tramp their installment

If they dare to go to the White House, Bush's regime must feel that will be impossible for them to rule.

[Zan_of_Texas]

8. I think civil disobedience would get a bit of attention.

It took, what, ten years to get the attention of government to fund AIDS? Dying people had to chain themselves to the doors of the CDC in Atlanta, and have demos on the steps of the Supreme Court.

My brother was one of those we lost to AIDS.

So, what would people do to fight for their vote?

Women marched for over 50 years, had hunger strikes, went to jail in awful conditions with rats, and jailers sometimes refused to let them talk to their visitors or attorneys. They raised money, marched through the snow from NJ to Washington, and buttonholed members of Congress, and protested President Wilson.

Blacks were beaten, some were lynched, for trying to vote.

What will YOU do?


Here is an archival story of one day of a 1913 Suffrage march -- this is the real story, not "made for tv," folks.

****************************************
WASHINGTON POST FEB 22, 1913 P 1 COL 2
****************************************

WEARY, ACHING HIKERS

Suffering Suffragists Limp Into
Havre de Grace

HAVE NO IDEA OF QUITTING

But Marchers for Votes, as They Plod
With Blistered Feet Through Maryland
Mud, Admit Their Regret That They
Ever Began the Pilgrimage - Reach
Their Goal After a Day of Torture.


Havre de Grace, Md., February 21. - With
slightly depleted ranks "General" Rosalie Jones'
little band of suffragist pilgrims straggled into
Havre de Grace just at dusk this evening after
a day's march over the worst and muddiest
road the "army" has encountered since it
started last week on the march to Washington.
Three of the hikers were missing when the
main body reached here, but the missing pil-
grims marched into town shortly after 9 o'
clock. One of the trio was "Colonel" Ida Craft,
who fell behind early in the day, suffering in-
tensely from badly swollen and blistered feet.
The other two remained behind to assist her.


LOOK LIKE MUD IMAGES.

So bad was the walking in stretches that
the "troops" took to the fields along the side
of the road. By the time they reached North-
east, where a brief stop was made for lunch-
eon, the marchers looked more like mud
images than women.

To add to their troubles, the commissary
automobile suddenly took fire on the road, but
it was quickly extinguished, with only slight
damage to either car or its contents.

At Perryville, just across the Susque-
hanna river from here, the "army" was met
by a committee of citizens and, headed by a
brass band, marched to the Havre de Grace
city hall, where Mayor Weber made an address
of welcome and presented the keys of the
city to "General" Jones. Later there was a
public meeting at which "General" Jones and
others spoke.

The "army" expects to leave here in the
morning, stopping at Belair, Md., tomorrow
night.


EVERY MARCHER SUFFERS.

Every woman in "General" Jones' pilgrim
army suffered untold agony today. While
none will admit that she will quit until the
goal is reached, the agonized look on the
face of each woman in the little army spells
suffering.

"Corporal" Martha Klatchken, who weighed
98 pounds when the hike started, and less
now, collapsed a short time back. On another
occasion she crawled nearly a mile on her
hands and knees to reach the night stop.
Today, her face pinched and haggard, her
pace slow, she merely wabbled along as would
a person lacking full control of limbs and
brain.

Miss Elizabeth Aldrich, the San Diego girl,
today is in almost hysterical condition. Ac-
cording to her own statement, she collapsed
in her room a few nights ago and was in a
raving hysteria for several hours.

The feet of Miss Phoebe Hawn are raw
and blistered, her ankles swollen, and her
knees twinge with pain with every movement.

Miss Helene Bergmark, the pretty Phila-
delphia girl who joined the hikers in that city,
was hardly able to get up from her bed. Yet
she hiked, though every step was agony. The
others are in little or no better condition.


"GENERAL" JONES SHOWS STRAIN.

"General" Jones' face shows the strain
of the march. Deepening rings circle her
eyes, her face is drawn and pinched, and she
seems to have lost five pounds or more from
her slight, delicate frame.

Perhaps the strangest feature of it all
is that none of the pilgrims will admit to the
others her true condition. They fear it will
show a sign of weakness - that it will stamp
them as "quitters."

Yet to outsiders they will tell of their
sufferings and admit their regrets that they
ever attempted the trip.

"But we cannot quit now ; we'll go on, no
matter what the cost," they will tell you. "We
cannot be quitters now. What fools we were
to start ! What an utterly foolish, insane thing
this hike is ! What are we gaining through it?
Nothing except agony such as few women
have ever experienced before, and to find
ourselves the objects of ridicule and sneers
and insults."

[jamboi]

17. We protested yesterday in SF -> Pelosi. Everybody needs to protest.

Check out http://www.Redhandsmovement.com

[Catamount]

5. Most of the US is too busy or complacent to question the results,

while the people in the Ukraine have been demonstrating for three weeks now.
Hopefully something will break after the meeting at Capitol Hill tomorrow.
If lots of people will protest in their own cities next Sunday At NOON, that might help too.
Keep your spirits up, even though I know it's hard-hard work you know!

[jojo54]

7. what's next Sunday @ noon?

[Zan_of_Texas]

9. Sunday at Noon - 51 marches

"YOU STOLE MY VOTE" 51 CAPITAL MARCH

SUNDAY, DECEMBER 12TH 2004
at Noon Everywhere!


There is a call for a national coordinated march on Sunday, day before the presidential electors meet in each state.

Marches are organizing to go to each state capital, plus DC, Sunday at noon.

Here is the national website:

http://www.51capitalmarch.com/

Check your state's info there.



"YOU STOLE MY VOTE" 51 CAPITAL MARCH

SUNDAY, DECEMBER 12TH 2004
at Noon

On December 12th 2004 at 12 noon, before the steps of your State Capitol and the Federal Capitol, join with us to protest the theft of our votes and our voting rights in the 2004 election.

As citizens, it is our duty to protect those basic rights that insure the survival of our democracy and constitution for present and future generations of Americans.

Egregious infringements of our voting rights occurred in the 2004 election: our voting systems were compromised and our votes violated. The line was crossed: we no longer trust our voting systems. As citizens, we must stand together and demand of our fellow citizen electors:



Do NOT cast your vote for President and Vice President until state election officials provide a complete, accurate, and verified vote recount.

Of our state and federal election officials:

Provide a verified, accurate, and complete recount of the votes cast in the November 2nd elections.

Of our state and federal representatives:

Immediately investigate the root causes of voting system and voting process failures during the 2004 elections Act to ensure the integrity of all future elections.

Join with us in a people's uprising, a citizen protest. Volunteer to help mobilize the citizens of your state to converge on your state capital in peaceful protest of our stolen rights.
On December 12th, go to your state or federal capital and make your voice heard.

Make a sign and show up!

Kip Humphrey
The 51 Capital March

[The Flaming Red Head]

18. Ukraine has been demonstrating with the $upport of the U$

It makes a difference.

[jojo54]

6. It'll never happen

unfortunately, the mindset of the people of these here United States of Jesusland can't see past their own noses. They're like children in a classroom when the teacher is in a foul mood, yelling at everybody. The little goodie-two shoes sit quietly, doing as they're told, which means "don't listen to the echos of election fraud in the back of the room - just read your public school bibles".

[renaissanceguy]

10. Nice analogy but...

it'll be the blue states that will be fighting. We are the freethinkers, and need to defend that right, as well as our right to vote.

---------------
---------------------
Buy liberal and progressive buttons, bumper stickers, and shirts at www.cafepress.com/liberalissues

[read the law first]

13. You usually have to show more illegal votes than the margin of victory

Normally to win an election contest, you have to show more illegal votes or unlawful ballots (or a combination of the two) than the margin of victory. In some states, you have to show more illegal votes than the margin plus the undervote.

The margin is what they talked about in this Charlotte race. Interestingly, the Charlotte race is the first instance I have ever come across of a limited revote. Every other precedent is that the election is thrown out completely and you have a completely new election. I don't know of any precedent anywhere in any reported state or federal case in a contest where the losing candidate was declared the victor as a result of a contest. A recount, yes all the time, but not a contest. The remedy (every one that I know about at least) to a contest is a new election.

I don't think that the limited revote in Charlotte will survive a court challenge (it was a board of election that ordered it and not a court) because of the problem that you have people voting with perfect knowledge of the margin rather than without knowledge of the ultimate margin who voted the first time.

[IndyPriest]

16. Read the Law: revote questions

RTL: 1) what does "show" mean in this line - "you have to show more illegal votes or unlawful ballots"? Do you have to PROVE that there were x number of illegal or unlawful ballots? Or demonstrate the POSSIBILITY of?

2) If you have to PROVE the number, TO WHOM do you have to prove it?

3) If it's needed and you prove the number, does that REQUIRE a REVOTE in the entire state, or merely open the possibility of a revote?

[read the law first]

21. Glad to oblige

(1) Actual evidence admissible in court. For example, absentee ballots that weren't signed, people who voted twice or multiple times, absentee ballots where an assistor helped but did not sign, absentee ballots that came in after the deadline or weren't postmarked properly (or at all), misprinted ballots, voters voting in the wrong district, closed primary states where somebody voted in one party's primary and then tried to switch to the other party's runoff, dead people who cast votes (especially if they did so in alphabetical order). In addition to those (and what we're looking for here), is corrupted voting programs that directly impact x number of votes. There was one case where an entire district of thousands of people were put in the wrong state house district, so the judge threw out the entire election without having evidence of each and everyone because you could just see that they were way, way over the margin (like a hundred times greater than the margin).

(2) Either a judge or a jury (whoever is acting as the factfinder)will decide whether there have been enough illegal ballots or unlawful votes to uphold a contest. I've seen extrapolation tried several times but never successfully. I've never seen conclusions based on assumptions ever be successful either.

(3) The North Carolina Agriculture race is the only case that I have ever seen that allows a limited revote in a jurisdiction smaller than the one represented. Every precedent that I've ever seen reported voids the entire election and has a brand new election for the ENTIRE jurisdiction represented. Most opinions say something similar to "An election is either valid or invalid, void or proper. It can not be partially valid or partially void." In this particular usage though, they are talking about individual races usually but I could see something like Washington state where there could be a domino effect (that's actually happening in North Carolina as well where another office holder says, well if you're going to let 24,000 more people vote, that would impact my race too).

Thank you for the courtesy.

[spoogly]

24. Is an election that is won by fraud

Void or voidable? Is it Void Ab Initio?

[read the law first]

25. Void. n/t

[liberal43110]

15. Use Guerrilla Marketing to Keep the Issue Alive

I made a 15-foot sign tonight that I intend to hang on a freeway overpass here in Columbus, Ohio. I also like the idea of plastering posters and signs on bus stops and public places. It keeps the issue alive, and people who otherwise might feel like no one cares see that people are still fighting for this election.

[NVMojo]

19. a whole lot of persistence.

[suka]

20. not happening

great thought... but never gonna happen!!!!!!!!

[truehawk]

22. Don't count on it,

[operafred]

23. what does it take? and why we must not "get over this."

indomitable will

mounting public pressure

informing those who don't know yet about the fraud committed

getting ourselves informed even more than we are now

making waves everywhere

not giving up ever



read this article:

why we must not "get over this"

http://www.crisispapers.org/essays/get-over-it.htm

[Oak2004]

26. I don't think Americans are complacent: I think we have lacked the

preexisting organization that would have allowed us to respond immediately as the Ukranians have. And I think we're playing catch-up right now.

Additionally, while many think that there was something funny about the results, very few people are aware that there is evidence to justify their gut suspicions. We have what might as well be a state-run mainstream media, and aside from the internet we do not have a strong alternative media. It's time for people around the country to resurrect the idea of the local underground newspaper, IMO, even if the local paper is not much more than one of those one page news sheets someone has begun to put out.

That's why I think everyone who is in a position to start local pro-democracy groups should be doing so right now. Even if those groups are little more than a dozen of your friends discussiong issues over a potluck, it creates a structure that, with a few phone calls, could be mustered for demonstrations on the fly. Without such structures, it can take weeks and months of advance planning to put together a sizable action. We need to be minutemen, not six-month-men (and women).