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The Vote Fraud Movement Needs Heart and Head: A Plea for Unity

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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 09:48 PM
Original message
The Vote Fraud Movement Needs Heart and Head: A Plea for Unity
Some notes from a soon to be social/organizational psychologist. I have noticed two distinct factions popping up here on DU and at Kos. There are people with "heart," who want to make as much noise as they can right away about any evidence of electoral impropriety. There are also ones with "head," who want to scrutinize every fact and supposition until they are 100% sure that the evidence is sound. This divide has been the basis for many arguments here, and threatens to divide and weaken our movement. We must realize that each side has a specific useful purpose, and learn to live with each other on common ground.

The anti-fraud movement is growing and growing. Just the thought of our elections being stolen evokes anger in many, many people. Republicans, Democrats, Greens, Libertarians, Socialists, Independents and Constitutionalists all put faith in our elections to guide our country in the right direction. We, as Americans, have so much trust in this system, that any evidence to show it has been dishonest will certainly cause immense backlash among the entire populace. Our job is to find evidence that there was fraud, and create this backlash when we do. If large enough, this backlash will be a tidal wave upon the shores of corrupt, cronyistic government, and bring the day that all progressives, libertarians, independents, and even a lot of conservatives dream of. To allow this backlash to occur, we must be strong, and we must stand unified. But we must have a strategy.

For the hearts (you know who you are)
People who are skeptical of claims of voter fraud are only skeptical because they want us to succeed, too. They realize that if we overexpose ourselves without sound evidence to back up our position, it will drastically hurt our credibility in this matter. The heads want to be sure of a move before they make it to avoid political injury. And they do serve an important purpose.

Once facts check out, though, it is your job to be the lungs of our movement. There have been enough facts that have checked out in the past month to raise hell. It is your job to give our voice strength, and to make it be heard all around the world. DO NOT SHUT UP ABOUT VOTER DISENFRANCHISEMENT AND THE HACKABILITY OF THE MACHINES EVER!!! There is no denying that voters were suppressed, and that the voting machines are flawed on so many levels that I wouldn't hold a high school class presidential election on them. You also may want holler out about the statistical irregularities. Some pretty reputable organizations have put their name behind analyses indicating fraud. As for the rest of the stories, it may be best to hold your breath until the facts check out.

For the heads (you also know who you are)
The hearts are only making noise because they are afraid our movement will lose strength if they don't. And they are right. In 2000, the recounts lost strength because we didn't have a loud enough voice. We should not have accepted the Supreme Court's election of George W. Bush. When the recounts favored Gore, we should have had millions of protesters clog up Washington until the election was overturned. So the hearts serve a purpose, too.

Your job is to be the mouth of our movement. You must articulate the hearts' energy into a message that is appealing to all people, and one that will withstand the wrath of Republicans. You must focus the raw energy from the hearts screams into a message that is irrefutable, understandable, and concrete. You must explain that everyone should be interested in fair elections, and that the reasons why people are concerned are because this election simply wasn't credible. Cite the investigations going on, the facts about vote suppression, and so on. But do not discredit the entire story. There is definitely enough irregularities going on to warrant a re-vote.


If the lungs and the mouth work together, we can formulate a voice that will be unstoppable. We will never accept any compromise of our democratic right to vote. This time, we will not stop because the Supreme Court says we should stop. We will not stop because the Republicans say they won or the Democrats say they lost. We will not stop until every question is thoroughly answered about this election. And if Bush is still president after that, we must not stop until our government takes responsibility for its war crimes, for its neglect of morals, and for it's blatant lying and corruption.

If we want our movement to succeed, though, we must stand together with one voice!
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AmyCrat Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Very well said Johnny
and I totally agree with you! We all have our place in this battle and we must be united!

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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. Good points Johny! n/t
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whalerider55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. JC
a thoughtful and cogent analysis...

a few points of difference, however-

i have seen a number of posts that i would consider to be from heart/head posters- who have already begun to articulate a clear understanding that the message needed and needs to be enfranchisement for all... and that the urgency is so compelling that the only effect time will have is to bury it, not allow it flower.

if we let this go, imho, we face a MSM invested in pointing us the other way, a majority republican legislature that cannot investigate itself and the executive baranch, and a sub rosa tactical advantage, practiced over three federal elections in four years that now enables them to steal the vote.

i deeply respect your analysis, and think it has merits. from an historical perspective, no country has ever existed like the US before in history- 50 states and a federal tri-cameral govenrment balanced perfectly (precariously, too). And if history tells us anything, it doesn't tell us that the above circumstances will arrest hubris, it will only nurture it.

the closest we've ever come to an analogy is Nixon, and the role of the legistlative branch, the will and intent were completely unlike what we have today. couple that with the ability to control the way votes are cast and counted...

so, 'umbly, i gotta say look for the heart/heads, and kick ass now, before it is too late. and it is nearly too late.

whalerider55
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whalerider55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. PS
i interviewed mellancamp during his first tour in support of his first album, and he had some wonderfulk and wild and naive things to say, which i'll share when i get time.

send on an e-mail here to me at DU, and i'll get to it later this week, if you have nay interest...

whalerider55
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. Not to get all Christian on you but...
Someone else said it another way: "act as doves, but be as clever as serpents."

The doves want to follow a civil, logical, and rational course to hash out the details and get to the bottom of things.

The serpents want to outwit the other side, pull the rug out from underneath their every move, strike while the iron is hot.

If you are a pure dove, and you think that we're going to fix this with an accounting book and slow, careful math, you'll still be doing that math four years from now, in the half hour between when you get home from your second low-wage job and bedtime.

If you are a pure snake, and you think you are going to sneak into the enemy camp and escape with a smoking gun in your hands, four years from now you'll find out that smoking gun is still doing you little good from inside a psychiatric care center.

Be both. Our voice to the people must be loud, but measured.

Or in other words, fast, clever math. Figures that maybe won't stand up to wild speculation, but which paint a telling picture. For example, the maps with black population... those may not be fit for a doctoral thesis, but they get the truth across to the level headed just as well as they do to the hot-blooded. They are well researched enough to stand the smell test, and add a compelling, human side to the story.


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pleiku52cab Donating Member (674 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Seen a ton of maps, but missed those - link please
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Here's a link.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x121922

This one has more charts, but the maps later down posted by truehawk are what I'm talking about.

Unfortunately those images aren't in their original full color -- there are better "looking" ones around here somewhere.


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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. Excellent post, one of the best I've read on here. Thanks!
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. Thank you!
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Unforgiven Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. Beautifully Done and
KICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
8. Great Comments "Johnny" and "Skids." Thanks.........(n/t)
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. JohnnyCougar
I am nominating this for the homepage.

Yes, I think it was that damn good.
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Awesome!! Nominate away!!!
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
31. Hey! Good idea. I'll do that too, even though I disagree with some of it,
its still so good, it should go on the homepage.
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Psyop Samurai Donating Member (873 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
11. Just superb, JohnnyCougar...
...really puts the cart with the horse.

I'm in awe of people's intelligence and commitment here; their perceptiveness and ability to articulate.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
12. Excellent advice. n/t
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ClarkinMich Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
14. nominated and kicked
n/t
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Thanks!!
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
17. Kick!
:kick:
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
18. kick for AM
:kick:
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Kick for PM
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
21. Well-argued, Johnny, and very good point
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Kota Donating Member (658 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
22. Well done!
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Thanks...and one last kick.
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smartvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
24. One of the best posts I've read out here. Kick. n/t
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
25. JohnnyCougar
To show the magnitude of my respect for this thread and how much I believe in its message, I am using my mini-milestone 1000th post to kick it.

Though 1000 posts doesn't mean as much as it used to, I still wanted it to be in reply to a worthy thread.

So with that,

KICK
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Holy cow. Thank you.
I've been offline for 3 days now cause some hackers attacked my school's server. I just got on now. Maybe Skenner will put this on the home page. I do want everyone to read it because I believe it addresses a very important issue if we want this to work.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Perhaps you should re-post it
I tried to 'nominate for homepage', but it's only good for 24 hours:-(
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I didn't know this...
I wonder what the best time to post it is, then. Perhaps in the morning on a work day. I dunno.

We do need unity in this movement. I think Arenbeck is sort of providing that in a way. He is making the claims, but making them carefully as to not look like a flake.

Perhaps I will repost it monday morning. If anyone has suggestions as to a better time to post it so we can all nominate it, let me know.

Also, the day I originally posted it was the day they put the Demopedia in, and I don't think they put anything but the Demopedia article on the homepage that day and the day after.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Tommorrow am could be good
It needs to be on the homepage!!!:toast: :bounce:
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
30. I think you have hit the nail on the head (ouch) with that post.
Edited on Fri Dec-10-04 10:37 PM by Wordie
I tend to the "head" side of things most often. Reason? I guess I keep thinking of the fiasco with Dan Rather and how all the legitimate aspects of his story got completely lost over the flap about the memo. And look what's happened to Dan Rather now: he had to resign his position. So that's why my personal approach is to want to make sure that all our information is really carefully vetted.

I really do understand the heart side too. So, even though I would probably not agree with all the issues your post raises, I won't even bother to debate those points, because I really do appreciate the overall effect of it. You have made some excellent points. Thank you very much.
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SomthingsGotaGive Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
32. Nicely put.
So does this mean we all agree that we need proof the dog is dead ?

:evilgrin:

:toast:
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Ok
I'll toast ya for a good line

:toast:

And beat ya for 'wrong thread to post the reduncancy'

:spank:



:)
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