Madsen sent me another e-mail--warns to watch out for this guy

[Vote4Kerry]

Here is Madsen's latest email he sent me:
=========================================================

"It seems like Fintan Dunne can toss out garbage but try and respond to him by email and you get some weird message in your outgoing address box. A non-Irish looking foreigner with an Irish tel. number, he comments on our election and dimisses our election malfeasance as a bunch of conspiracy theories. He crops my photos without permission from German and Danish web sites but his own photo bears an amazing resemblance to Osama bin Laden with a shorter beard.

http://www.breakfornews.com/articles/MadsenVoteFraudTaleSpin.htm

This guy is an obvious plant by the neo cons to discredit those opposed to the New Reich powers who are trying to screw our democratic system. And these SOBs even have to rely on foreign shysters with faux Irish names to carry their dirty laundry. Pathetic situation. He attacks me, Clint Curtis, and steals with impunity the intellectual property of Onlinejournal without attribution. But what can you expect from these right-wing cretans? They must all be "Good Germans."

wm

[lthuedk]

1. And of course...PRAISE THE LORD

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BeHereNow]

2. The tsunami of attacks on researchers is

extremely suspect.
Reminds me of the packs of GOP workers they flew
into Florida to protest the recount in 2000.
Familiar, no?
I completely trust Madsen over some nebulous guy
named "clint."
bhn

[Doc_Technical]

4. Google- "Brooks Brothers Riot"

n/t

[jamboi]

40. Clinton Curtis. n/t

[eleny]

3. Here's a pic found ijn Google Images

[BeHereNow]

Now THAT is SCARY!

I can't decide if he looks more like a crack dealer
or a pedophile....maybe both?
RUN!
HIDE!
ROLF!
bhn

[BeHereNow]

5. Cyber -Glitch..dupe

WTF...
bhn

[reality_bites]

6. "plant by the neo cons." Get real - read his stuff...

http://www.fintandunne.com/

[FredStembottom]

9. One of the most confusing web-sites ever. What was all that NASA comet

stuff??????

[proudtobeadem]

15. You know,

something just occured to me, how do we know that any site we go to to check something is not a fake/plant? Is there any way to know for certain that this site has been around for a few years?
I don't know I think I'm now an official tin foil hat wearer. ;)

[ektodemo]

76. Fake/plant? Check Wayback archives

http://web.archive.org/ is a great service. "Browse through 30 billion web pages archived from 1996 to a few months ago"

http://www.fintandunne.com gives no results there, but there is a lag of some months. I guess comparing Wayback results to other sources (such as domain name info, e.g http://whois.net/) could give clues to what is authentic or fake.


BTW: Not sure if it has been posted before, but yesterday some people raised questions about the Danish newspaper coverage, since it at first did not appear on their web site. It is now on the web: http://ekstrabladet.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=272488 ("programmer faked the election for Bush") It was high up on their front page earlier today.

Greetings from Norway.

[NVMojo]

31. try googling his name, articles are full of "conspiracy theories"

so he doesn't need to point fingers.

[jamboi]

36. Okay, read and again, quite possibly neocon plant. n/t

[jamboi]

62. Okay, listened to one of his broadcasts and am more open to him now.

Still totally baffled by his article and his motivations for writing it, but will try to approach with less hostility. :-)

[Eloriel]

7. Do you have permission to print his private email to you here?

It would be the kind of thing I'd take STRONG objection to personally.

[Vote4Kerry]

8. Yes, the title of his email was :Feel free to post to DU -- this dude

really reeks

[rdmccur]

10. Where's jamboi?

Has he heard from Wayne lately?

[jamboi]

25. Yes, and I've been doing some research. About to post. n/t

[jamboi]

26. Madsen's mostly been concerned about Clint's welfare with his dog being

shot and all. Sending up prayers for both of them.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

48. Where did you see his dog was shot?

" I've just spoken with Clint Curtis, the "whistleblower" in this case, and he's reported that his previously healthy three-year old German Shepard has been found dead. Just a few hours after I published my story on Mr. Curtis. (snip) ...I suppose it's a good reminder of the kind of folks that Mr. Curtis has been dealing with down in Florida for so many years.(snip) ...whoever decided it was a good idea to kill an innocent animal in order to threaten or warn or intimidate Mr. Curtis in some way. "
Brad


Did I miss something or did you just add the part about being shot.

[jamboi]

49. Well, I can't vouch for it, but I saw it on BradBlogtoo

http://www.bradblogtoo.blogspot.com/

"Mr. Curtis' Dog Has Been Killed
FYI... Mr. Curtis' dog was shot and killed a few hours after I published my original story on the BRAD BLOG. This is the second time that Mr. Curtis has been the apparent victim of intimidation through such tacticts. Another one of his dogs was killed in 2002. "

The other dog was poisoned according to Madsen, in a similar attempt to unnerve Curtis.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

52. thank you.

Links help.

So do copies of police reports filed when someone finds their dog shot dead.

But I don't expect you to produce that because you aren't making the original claim.

You now have linked to the original claim and have absolved yourself from responsibility of proving it.

Do you reckon Clint reported the incident ?

[jamboi]

63. I think Curtis told Freidman on the phone since Freidman talks about talki

ng on the phone much of the day with him.

[Alizaryn]

11. ....May be wrong but , I think it's a case of Fintan Dunne being

just a little bit jealous of Mr Madsen. I see Wayne's article on the front page of "Conspiracy Planet", perhaps it bumped one of Dunne's articles?
My suggestion to Wayne, ignore it...

[Cronus Protagonist]

12. Madsen looks like a CIA RW mole type

It may be an unfortunate gene pool thing, but he's not a looker, that's for sure. I'm not using that superficial point to skew my opinions and especially since I haven't been following his legend buildup, I'm not going to use his ugly appearance as a yard stick for his claims.

Still... not a good thing from a PR perspective at the very least.



http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[jamboi]

22. Yeah, worst possible photo picked for that reason I'm sure. :-) n/t

[jamboi]

30. Putting their photos next to each other they make quite a pair don't they.

LOL.

[Carolab]

53. Actually no more than does Mike Ruppert n/t

[Cronus Protagonist]

57. I've never sen him - does he also look like he was born in a cabin?

And home-schooled...

:)

[Benhurst]

75. Very sinister looking -- he could be Tim Russert's

twin, separated at birth.

[BreakForNews]

13. Sorry to interrupt the HateFest diatribe but.......

Lol - I doubt Madsen wrote that. That's just low level mudslinging.

The rant is mostly irrelevant, but for the unwary, let's note
that my email box works fine. Also:

"he comments on our election and dimisses our election
malfeasance as a bunch of conspiracy theories."

Um... slightly misleading.

Since Nov 3rd we've been calling this a stolen election and we have compiled the evidence on a BreakForNews VoteFraud page:

http://www.breakfornews.com/Copulation-Control-2004.htm

Copulation Control 2004.
How America Got Screwed.

BreakForNews.com 3 November, 2004
by Fintan Dunne, Editor

"Those who cast the votes decide nothing.
Those who count the votes decide everything." --Joseph Stalin

When the electorate, particularly the valliant defenders of the Democratic Tradition, woke up on Wednesday, 3rd Nov., it was to realize that they were missing their underwear.

They have groggy recollections of a late night out on the town, on Tuesday night. And their missing political underwear surely gives a clue to what happened last night.

(Clues picked up already by some on the popular Democratic Underground forum.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1290765&mesg_id=1290765

Last night, despite only dim recollections, they must have been screwed. Well and truly.

So, to be precise, the conspiracy theory I'm dismissing is Wayne Madsen's theory.

This election was clearly stolen.

By the way, though I have lived in the U.S., last time I spoke
to my Irish mother she seemed convinced I'm Irish too. lol

Joke:
Irishman walks into a bar with a pig under his arm.
"Where'd you get the pig," asks the barman.
"I won him in a raffle," says the pig.

Only a real Irishman could tell that joke. We don't take ourselves seriously. : )
I don't take the above rant seriously either.

reality_bites (73 posts)
"plant by the neo cons." Get real - read his stuff...

http://www.fintandunne.com/


Exactly.

[New Earth]

14. don't worry

i didn't believe Madsen since day 1, but i'll get flamed for saying that :eyes:

[jamboi]

27. Hello Fintan. I couldn't take your article very seriously either. Sorry

it just wasn't quality.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

38. The thing with this article is...

He never asks us to trust him.

Madsen, Harris, Clint, Fisher..etc etc all ask us to trust them in their work.
They all leave out critical information and ask that we trust they can fill in the blanks.

This piece has no such request.

And this guy has the balls to come and defend his piece.

Maybe Madsen will show up and we can bear witness to a discussion instead of your one line insults.

[jamboi]

43. Comparing apples and oranges

Dunne's piece isn't an investigative piece, so in it he never had to do deep research or protect sources. He just throws mud at the investigative work of a *real* investigative reporter. Its always easier to throw unsubstantiated doubts out than it is to investigate and connect the dots of organized crime specifically organized to obscure its structure. Its kinda like comparing an agent uncovering Al Queda network operations to his detractors who just throw out questions and doubt about his field work. Pah!

[SomthingsGotaGive]

50. Not really.

What you have done is called Madsen an investigative journalist.

His piece just throws as much mud as this. He just hopes his will stick.

The $29 million was the heart and soul of his pieces. Then he says not to focus on it it was fake?!?!

Come on Jamboi you know that's weaker than any other story we've been asked to believe here on DU.

The Cybernet threads have more staying power than this and there isn't even a connection there. Just names that sound close.

Here there isn't even that.

Like the "hit piece" you site says.

In January 2004 Curtis registered a website to make these exact claims, albeit with the alleged perpetrator's names lightly disguised. He's even written a book (available on Amazon.com) which covers this and other topics --such as "Communist spies" stealing U.S. secrets. He's been openly promoting his story, and the book --on the Internet.

I understand that you have spent a lot of time promoting Madsen's story and credibility but do you really think he needs your help if his facts hold water?

The people here on DU don't often let real stories slip through.

DU is often the place that Helps identify the fakes from the diamonds in the ruff.


When you disrespect authors that take the time to post here and answer questions you really do me, and other, DU'rs a disservice.


And to be brutally honest you haven't been hear nearly long enough to be throwing around insults and belligerently reposting posts that have been deemed offensive by the board moderators and removed.

Please check yourself.

[jamboi]

60. You've written a lot there. I'll try to respond.

You're probably right that I laid into Dunne too harshly and checking myself as you say I think of it you're right I've been belligerant in some of my postings. Point taken. Like many here its probably the passion of the moment and driving desire to break the truth out which got the better of my judgement. And I do feel a bit protective of people who are risking their lives (Madsen and Curtis) to get the truth to the people. Idealistically I think that their stories will prove out and become evident, but my practical side is worried about their safety and the probability of disinformation attacks destroying them and the truth they bear.

As NVMojo and others familiar with real investigative journalism will attest, this is kind of a cat and mouse game between the good guys trying to uncover truth and the bad guys trying to hide and mislead the hunters. I don't know precisely when Madsen realized that the bank check was a fraud, but I do know that he told me about it a number of days before I was able to tell y'all. He realized and told me it was a decoy, intended to lead the hunters away from the real money flow. He put out the details in the hopes of smoking out info about the real money flow. If you want to call that throwing mud and hoping it will stick, well okay, but don't miss the point that the mud he was throwing was against the bad guys, not a fellow reporter. And the desired end result is further insights into crime, not interpersonal jousting between reporters.

I'm not understanding your point about Curtis. He's been trying to get the word out for quite a while. His story is internally consistent. Whether one thinks his self-published book was well-written or not or effective in getting his story or not, or somehow casts the wrong light on his efforts, I don't know. I have no problem with it. Chinese communist spies did indeed use Yang to steal secrets from the U.S. and that is well documented, so I'm not sure what you're saying there.

As for Cybernet, I don't know anything about it that would lend any weight to investigating it further, but I have no problem with people working on that angle too. I suspect it may be disinformation time waster, but who knows, maybe that is a similar decoy that will lead to some other puzzle piece.

As far as Dunne's article goes I have to continue to stand on the point that Dunne doesn't provide any contrary primary evidence that he's tracked down on the ground like Madsen and his investigators and info network have. Clearly apples and oranges IMO. Dunne may be an expert in other areas of conspiracy theory, but I don't see how one can say that a DC-based former NSA agent w/ deep connections into the intelligence community knows less about this matter than someone writing from across the pond who is not in a position to be getting many leaks from the inside or being able to do ground work.

I don't know Dunne's motivation and probably should be more circumspect about speculating about that. I will say I strongly believe the energy he's exerted to "debunk" Madsen is mispent and in some ways is endangers Madsen and Curtis' safety and impedes the truth coming forward. Why can't he work with Madsen and us to unearth the story instead of targeting this breaking story with friendly fire.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

65. First let me say I really enjoyed reading that.

Excellent post.

I asked you in another post who you were. By this I meant had I missed something you had posted that would explain why Madsen feels comfortable enough e-mailing you information to sensitive to post online yet he was confident enough to divulge it to you.

Also I see Bradblog asked you to email him.

This seems pretty connected to me. Almost to connected to remain objective. But, objectivity isn't always important when engaged in battle.

This article isn't a battle between reporters or even reporter vs. Bushco. It's a fight between truth and fiction.

Dunne wrote a piece that helps us, not Madsen but Us. We need every claim about election fraud 100% accurate before we expect any bush supporter to switch teams or even demand fair elections.

99.9% of the people that think fraud occurred will continue to believe it even if every single story and lead dries up.

We are trying to convince those that are afraid to believe their country has fallen so far from the glory they grew up believing.

25% of the country will be convinced we are trying to steal the election from Bush

26% of the country will be glad we are taking it back.

49% of the country might not even notice whats going on.

What we need isn't one reporter blowing the lid off this.

It is obvious that Black people were denied the right to vote all over the country. Do you see any republicans demanding justice?

These people already know they stole the election they just think how they did it was fine.

How is the Madsen story going to change that.

Thank you again for responding with such thought.

Steve.

[jamboi]

39. To be fair Fintan, I agree that Madsen's questioning your nationality was

a low blow. I am an Irish American myself, so the half Irish thing wins some points from me.

[SueZhope]

83. Hi Fintan

Just wanted to tell you I have been reading your
site & had listened to your webcasts online.
You have always come across to me as someone who
was on our side about the stolen election. When it was said you were a plant I was
totally thrown of by that .I was not sold .

I'm sure many of us never doubted you were who you claimed to be.

I'm keeping an open mind on all the story's that have not been
proven true or disproven.

[Razorback_Democrat]

84. LOL

Madsen busted him out!

[Carni]

88. So are you saying that Madsen & online journal are pulling a Rathergate

AGAIN? (Did they the first time? I have no idea but if Madsen is blowing smoke -- two servings of this seems rather suspect IMO)

[Psyop Samurai]

16. Madsen, I'm afraid, is digging himself deeper.

I'm quite familiar with Fintan Dunne, and Madsen's furious smoke and mirrors isn't gonna fly in circles not easily baited with terms like "right-wing cretans".

We're in deep territory here, folks. Mr. Madsen has been called out, and he must respond with something more than emotion-laden rhetoric. It is possible that Mr. Dunne is in error, though the evidence thus far is clearly in his favor. Eventually I'll get to the bottom of this, but right now, I'm focused on election fraud, which is why I'm here, and not with my usual tin foilers. ;)

Be careful out there.

<edit>Hi Fintan! :hi:

[Woo]

17. Honestly...

I would like some more confirmation that the message posted is from Madsen -- I don't think he wrote that email.

BreakforNews showed up here what(please correct me if I'm wrong)... TODAY and post a Madsen debunked thread(which is fine... I can't say anything for or against that) and was quite honestly light on the debunkin and heavy on opinion...soooo then Madsen sends a strange message to watch out for him -- then someone else shows up to back up breakfornews and tell us to watch out for Madsen --

uh huh -- right.

I think there is some, ok maybe A LOT, of chain yankin goin on here --

I'm defnitely not paranoid -- but it's just weird -- smoke and mirrors is definitely correct...

[jamboi]

19. Its Madsen's writing style. I have no reason to doubt Vote4Kerry.

I told y'all we have folks PAID to post disinformation here didn't I??? First outed example. Damn, its hard to compete with that.

[Woo]

24. Need second opinion...

I'm not questioning Vote4Kerry's veracity -- I would just like confirmation on that email ... it's very weird. Could it be possible that someone got Vote4Kerry's email address --it's clear that Madsen consistently sends email to jamboi and Vote4Kerry... so anyone paying attention would know who to target -- with an email address it's fairly simple to send email that looks like it's coming from Madsen...

I need a second opinion -- if it is Madsen... I just find it strange he's wasting his time on this guy and foolishness... but ok, maybe Madsen has been locked in the ol hotel room a little too long -- he's gettin jumpy...:)

[jamboi]

34. We aren't the only ones who've exchanged e-mail with him. You can write

him and maybe he'll reply to you (course he's busy trying to keep himself & Clint alive right now, so it might not be his highest priority, y'know). But he's quite approachable.

[Woo]

41. Nahhh

I have no urge to write the man -- if he's on to something good(haven't decided if he is or he isn't) I'm not going to interupt him to ask him why he's chasing down a lowly guy that's writing an opinion piece -- just seems to be a waste of time to me, since he's busy and all..but what do I know?... --so alright, I'm finished with my commentary about it.

[jamboi]

42. Well that's fine, but don't say you want verification then. n/t

[SomthingsGotaGive]

46. seems like all these theorists do is argue with themselves. n/t

[jamboi]

64. Best thing would probably be for them to communicate directly as Madsen

tried to do with Dunne. Hopefully they can hook up and find some common ground.

[jamboi]

20. Actually if you read the article its not impressive. Just a hit piece.

Not a big deal.

[NVMojo]

32. Mr. Fintan writes for the psyop site so I can see why you might

know him. I think this is just a case of investigative journalist competition. The real crook here is BUSH, so quite distracting from the main points, people!

[Razorback_Democrat]

85. Right on! n/t

[Carolab]

54. I think Madsen knows how to spell better than that

I saw that right away "cretans" versus "cretins". Sounds a bit too much like "morans".

Also, I don't think Madsen would use the word, even correctly spelled. Just doesn't "smell" right. IMHO.

[labouchet]

21. Vote4Kerry, next time use spell check....

It's "cretins" not cretans.

Or are we to take it Madsen is dissing people from Crete? (in addition to the Germans, Irish, and Fintan Dunne)

This is getting ridiculous.

[jamboi]

29. The spelling error is undoubtedly Madsen's. n/t

[labouchet]

33. You think?

According to the ghost of Edward R. Murrow, who just appeared to me in a vision, that is very unlikely.

[jamboi]

35. I'm confident. Your ghost friend is unreliable. n/t

[Vote4Kerry]

37. I copied and pasted email..Here is exactly what was sent to me

Subject: Re: Feel free to post to DU -- this dude really reeks
Date: 12/7/2004 11:43:50 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: WMadsen777
Reply To:
To: xxxxxx
CC:
BCC:
Sent on:


Sent from the Internet (Details)
Internet Address Card Attached




It seems like Fintan Dunne can toss out garbage but try and respond to him by email and you get some weird message in your outgoing address box. A non-Irish looking foreigner with an Irish tel. number, he comments on our election and dimisses our election malfeasance as a bunch of conspiracy theories. He crops my photos without permission from German and Danish web sites but his own photo bears an amazing resemblance to Osama bin Laden with a shorter beard.

http://www.breakfornews.com/articles/MadsenVoteFraudTaleSpin.htm

This guy is an obvious plant by the neo cons to discredit those opposed to the New Reich powers who are trying to screw our democratic system. And these SOBs even have to rely on foreign shysters with faux Irish names to carry their dirty laundry. Pathetic situation. He attacks me, Clint Curtis, and steals with impunity the intellectual property of Onlinejournal without attribution. But what can you expect from these right-wing cretans? They must all be "Good Germans."

wm

[Carolab]

55. Nope, don't believe it

Doesn't read right. Doesn't carry the tone Madsen uses at all. Plus, the misspelled words "dimisses" instead of "dismisses" plus the "cretans" and the ad hominem attack style--it all seems wrong.

I think someone is trying to discredit Madsen by posing as Madsen discrediting Fintan.

[jamboi]

61. Its Madsen's writing style. I think he was just pissed and didn't use a

spell checker. When I read it I wondered if it was a good idea to have posted it, but I don't have any reason to doubt it was Madsen and that Vote4Kerry asked him to post it. It was probably just a bad moment for Madsen because he read Dunne's piece, was upset, tried to contact him, was unsuccessful and then sent off this. I'll ask him about it though. What would be best is if these two could communicate and find some common ground if its to be had.

[Donailin]

77. Not nit-picking but I've exchanged email with Madsen in the past

and that sounds like him.

But I'm not defending him or the other new guy.

In fact, I think the zealotry is getting out of hand.

I think the best case for fraud will be made in the stats and I look forward to todays panel/conference or whatever it is --anything but a hearing -- on the hill.

I don't want the proof coming from questionalble sources that can be dragged through the mud in Rove's sleep. I want the non-partisan geek type scientist with no axe to gring, no history of conspiracy theories to be the one solid witness that cracks this baby wide open.

Remember folks, we have the numbers on our side.

[IAMREALITY]

81. Hey, If It's Proof

"I don't want the proof coming from questionalble sources that can be dragged through the mud in Rove's sleep. I want the non-partisan geek type scientist with no axe to gring, no history of conspiracy theories to be the one solid witness that cracks this baby wide open."

Shit, if it's proof I'll take it from any goddamn source. Proof is Proof. Donald Duck could be wearing a vote Kerry T-shirt and be presenting the proof and I wouldn't care... As long as it's proof.

And yes, we do have the numbers on our side, as well as truth, justice, honor, and the good Lord...

[althecat]

23. For the record Fintan Dunne has been supportive of this movement...

... since day 1 - back in July 2003. In my opinion Fintan is an outstanding web publisher. He is kinda out there but also quite careful too.. and has a great turn of phrase.

He is not the first person to question Madsen's story and will not be the last.

[jamboi]

28. Of which movement? The article reads like desparate Bushco operative * n/t

[jbnow]

44. Have you looked him up?

His page:
http://www.fintandunne.com/

Or just see some of the titles that show up on google search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Fintan+Dunne&btnG=Google+Search

I'm not agreeing (or disagreeing) with what he says on this issue...but he isn't a repub plant. (I often say "and that's why God made google")

I don't know what details are true, who is playing, who has ego issues. But I just wish the truth to get out and to the degree any are working towards that, bless them.

[jamboi]

45. Yes, and I'd also seen his stuff before. n/t

[jamboi]

47. I've got a new theory. Maybe what we have here are 2 conspiracy theorist

reporters who by their training are inherently suspicious of other conspiracy theorists and their motives. New theory for me, though I guess someone else posted here with a similar idea. Hmmm, maybe their right.

[jbnow]

80. At least two!

And those who seek to uncover conspiracy should be suspicious, just by their nature.

We can't really figure out motives but we sure can hope that truth can be revealed and proven about the conspiracies themselves.

[Psyop Samurai]

51. Correct, althecat...

jamboi, you've been pushing this story, and I'm willing to assume the best intentions on your part, but when you say "The article reads like a desparate Bushco operative", I'm afraid you don't get Dunne at all. I believe, after familiarizing yourself with his work, you might not perceive it that way. Again, I don't know the bottom line on all this, but prefer that people remain objective.

<edit>
heh... you could be right. I was responding to the earlier posts.

[Carolab]

56. To me it is the "community" policing itself

Fintan vetting Madsen. I do NOT believe that is Madsen's response above.

[Psyop Samurai]

58. Yes, it's Fintan vetting Madsen...

I hadn't considered that the email could be fake. Now I honestly don't know what to think. :crazy:

[jamboi]

59. Oh, its Madsen all right. Its more personal than I would like him to have

written. It looks to me kinda like the back and forth you get within the scientific community among competing theories. Because of my having a first hand experience with Madsen and coming to have some level of trust of him, I can't claim full objectivity, its true. But I'd still say that Dunne's piece doesn't provide proof to debunk it just throws water and mud. Anyone can do that.

[Hamoth]

66. whoops double post --NT

[Hamoth]

67. Two things that bug me about this message...

1. he reffers to people as "foreigners" all the time. Does anyone else find that wierd and kinda rethuggish?

2. he compares a critic of his to OBL. Again...kinda rovian talk here. Blantantly xenophobic too even if you view it under the best light. The guy is a foreigner who looks like OBL, a terrorist, so he must be from the other party? That sounds like some things I have heard coming from brainwahsed righty-whiteys.

THoughts?

[jamboi]

68. My thought is that it was not Madsen's best moment. I think he was pissed

off and indulged in some adhominem attacks. But then again when I read the Dunne piece, knowing what I know I can see why he's so pissed off. There's a lot of ignorance and misunderstanding in that article, and I really, really wish Dunne had contacted Madsen and talked to him prior to writing the article. I just e-mail Dunne and apologized for my harsh criticism of his article and challenged him on some important points of his article.

[Hamoth]

73. Ad hom is one thing...the comments smacked of racism.

The foreigner looks like obl...I mean...yikes. When I get mad, I don't resort to comments like that. I mean, who on here does?

Can he explain to us what prompted him to go THERE in his anger of all the places he can go?

[jamboi]

78. Well, I agree. n/t

[jamboi]

89. kick

[ngant17]

69. other sordid characters: Marvin Couch and Yang in Oviedo

I noticed that Mr. Marvin Couch is associated with Yang now. He's involved with the Taiwan Atayla group and giving presentations to them. Note he's a veteran Cold War Republican here in Florida, moved up in their ranks during the Reagan years, I thnk, and I recall the scandal a few years back:

Marvin Couch admitted in March 1996 that he purchased oral sex for $22 from a prostitute in a Tallahassee FL shopping center parking lot the previous February. Couch also admitted soliciting prostitutes in the past. Representative Couch, a state legislator with a perfect rating from the Christian Coalition of Florida, said, " I have sinned against my God, my wife, my children, and the citizens I represent. I am truly regretful for the embarrassment and shame this incident has caused them." Couch also said he was receiving counseling from his pastor.

Question: Does former Rep. Couch go on these Taiwan junkets for sex tourism? Does Yang think or even know it is wise to associate with this sordid character?

If Mr. Couch made a formal presentation at the Yang offices in Oviedo of his last trip there recently, I wonder what he was really doing, arranging or sponsoring sex tours to Taiwan for the company execs? Inquiring minds want to know!

Everyone who has lived in Central Florida with a memory of the honorable Rep. Couch should have a vague recollection of this sexual deviant who cheats on his wife while serving the public as our state rep. I sure do.

[ngant17]

72. other sordid characters, pt. 2

please refer to this recent buzzflash.com article for my previous message:

http://www.atayal.org/Event-5-03-03.asp

[Donailin]

70. Throwing hands in air

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00220.htm

THE REAL SCOOP
ON DIEBOLD

25th July, 2003
by Fintan Dunne, Editor - http://www.GuluFuture.com
FROM: http://www.GuluFuture.com/diebold_scoop.htm
On 24th July, 2003 an important story broke. Johns Hopkins University researchers found that electronic voting machines are full of security flaws which can allow fraudulent election results. A scandal indeed.

But like many reported 'scandals' this is a pseudo-investigation. In truth, the news was two weeks old. Alternative media site Scoop.co.nz first broke the unabridged full story, by Bev Harris --back in early July, 2003.

The Johns Hopkins team only decided to commence their investigation precisely when the Scoop story hit the Internet. Now, in double-quick time they are in print in the New York Times (followed by Yahoo News and MSNBC) with what the NYT called "the first review of the software by recognized computer security experts." Author of the Scoop articles, Bev Harris, although a world leader in this field, is sadly unrecognized --by the NYT at least. So the NYT coyly ignores the explosive content of her prior Scoop story.
Why? Note this remark by Aviel Rubin, of Johns Hopkins University, who led the team which examined Diebold software used in voting machines across the USA. When asked to comment on allegations by Bev Harris that the Diebold software may have been designed to facilitate fraud, Rubin described the claim as "ludicrous."

Rubin could dismiss the allegation of deliberately fraudulent design in Diebold software, because his team never examined the Diebold software in question. They only looked at security flaws in the touchscreen terminals and smart cards used by voters. It's true, these are deeply flawed, but not criminally flawed.

The jaw-dropping revelations in the Scoop story did not relate to the touchscreens, but the Diebold software running on the servers which collate the results from many individual touchscreens. It is here that the smoking gun was found.

Incredibly, this software keeps not one, but two Microsoft Access data tables of voting results. It's like a business keeping two sets of account books. The two tables are notionally identical copies of the votes collated from all polling stations. The software uses the first table for on-demand reports which might uncover alteration of the data --such as spot checks of results from individual polling stations.

And here's where it got scary. The second of the two tables is the one used to determine the election result. But the second table can be hacked and altered to produce fake election totals without affecting spot check reports derived from the first table. These will still check out.

The election officials using menu-driven Diebold software are never aware there are two underlying data tables.

Finally, alterations to the second table can be accomplished by dialing into the Diebold server across the Internet through a maintenance port. Whew!

Is this software designed with criminal intent? Consider this: If the IRS called to a business and found two sets of books -one used for IRS spot checks and a second, alterable set used to make IRS returns, do you think they might be a little bit annoyed?

Yet even though the Johns Hopkins team sourced their data from Scoop and surely knew of the full implications of Bev Harris's discoveries, by only looking at touchscreen stations in their investigation, they can with straight faces dismiss the deliberate intent allegations as "ludicrous."

The real Diebold story may have been so hot, that some in US media and academia have co-opted the controversy and have masked it's full scope. It's not the first time this tactic has been used. For the straight dope on Diebold, go to the people who got the scoop!

- GuluFuture.com

http://www.GuluFuture.com/diebold_scoop.htm



Why is Madsen dissing this guy?

[jamboi]

71. I wanted to let everyone know that after listening to one of Dunne's radio

programs tonight and reading some of your reponses to my criticisms of Dunne's article I decided that I'd been too harsh and dismissive of Dunne. So I e-mailed an apology. I also took the opportunity to challenge the part of his article that has a clear misunderstanding of Madsen's article re: the bogus check (ie. Dunne implies it was an amateurish check when Madsen had told me just the opposite, that it was extremely high quality). I continue to object to many problems with Dunne's article that I know to be incorrect. I also urged him to get in touch with Madsen directly and repeated Madsen's e-mail. Hopefully they can communicate and find some common understanding.

[Hamoth]

74. Keep us informed.

I would like to know how the two resolve their differences / if they resolve their differences.

[g9udit]

79. SUGGESTED RESPONSE TO CONSPIRACY THEORIST ACCUSATIONS

I wanted to make a suggestion on how to respond to accusations of being a 'Conspiracy Theorist' ( whatever that means ).

Below is the text copied from an email message that I sent to several Media representatives on the Election Fraud
issue, in which I let them know that any accusations of being a 'Conspiracy Theorist' made in response to my letter, was only an indication that the facts and conclusions in my letter were accurate, since it meant they could not factually rebuttal my arguments :


If you wish to rebuttal the above numbers and research studies, do so with facts, and not with 'persuasion by ridicule' tactics,
by using emotional labels such as 'conspiracy theory', 'kooks', 'sore losers', and other attempts to discredit an individual, because you can not discredit their facts or position via a logical and reasonable rebuttal.

The Collegiate Rules of Debate, not only disallow any and all attempts of 'persuasion by ridicule', but actually deduct one point for every attempt that a Debater made to win the debate by personal attack, instead of via facts and logic.

The originators of Collegiate Rules of Debate were wise enough to know that if you make a factual assertion, and I respond with a personal attack, then by my lack of addressing your facts, I am indirectly admitting that your facts are correct.

In other words, any responses of personal attacks or accusations that I am a 'Conspiracy Theorist', is actually an admission that the information I've presented is correct, and my deductions logical, because you can not make a successful logical rebuttal to the facts I've presented.

I will hold any and all responses to this message and data, to the same Collegiate Debate Rules and Code of Conduct.

I am perfectly happy to debate this issue with anyone, using Collegiate Debate Rules.

I will not allow myself to be subjected to personal attacks and ridicule, and I will strongly defend myself against any such unethical tactics and accusations.

[Razorback_Democrat]

82. Here from another thread yesterday

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=123770&mesg_id=123770

Posted by "breakfornews"


not drawing any conclusions

[genieroze]

86. That guy does not look Irish. eom

[bones_7672]

87. Keith Olbermann's latest blog on Madsen "Certified and/or certifiable"

"Certified and/or certifiable"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240