We CAN STILL WIN, and legally too

[berni_mccoy]

One of the people asking questions at the hearing brought this up, and it's smiply brilliant.

There are 15 RED states that DO NOT legally (or otherwise) require the Electors they send to the Electoral College to vote for the candidate their state voted for. That's 155 EVs. We only need to convince 18 of them to cast their vote for Kerry and we are done. That's less than 20% and it's ONLY 18 people.

We need to get the list of these people and contact them to see if any of them do not want Bush back in office, then make sure they are aware of their rights to cast their vote they way they see appropriate.

I know one of them from WV (some mayor) has already stated he would NOT cast his vote for Bush.

What does everyone think?

[Bertha Venation]

1. I think those 18 people would probably fear for their lives.

JMO.

[eomer]

2. Vote or die? (n/t)

[tx_dem41]

3. Of course, those 18 people

are all bigwig Republicans IIRC. Good luck with all that!

[trotsky]

4. Yes, they are picked for their extreme party loyalty.

You would probably have better luck convincing Dubya to dump Cheney, nominate Kerry as his new Veep, and then resign.

[crispini]

5. Question: What are the 15 states?

And is there a good case to be made for rampant vote fraud in any of them?

That would help a lot.

Edit: I think it's worth trying, especially if you manage to build a convincing case. For example, show cogent examples of vote fraud in their state, or in ohio. Do a lot of research on the electors. Figure out who is more middle of the road. Pick good targets, people who have proven themselves to be sane, ethical, intelligent people.

Go for it --- build us a list, make the case elector by elector, and I bet you can get a campaign started here. :D

[VTGold]

6. He was great!! And easy on eyes too... . hubba hubba....

Seriously though - not only was that a great issue to build on.

Those electors haven't been appointed yet have they?

Maybe we could start with the House reps from Counties which went for Kerry.

[mod mom]

7. Have you ever tried to convince a bushie, it's in the koolaid-strong stuff

[berni_mccoy]

10. Actually Yes I have

I convinced a handful to withhold their vote from Bush in the election. I agree that there are many who are die-hard loyalists. But we need less than 20% to win.

[berni_mccoy]

8. Here are the 15 states (and their EVs)

AZ 10
AR 6
IA 7
MO 11
VA 13
GA 15
ID 4
IN 10
KS 6
KY 8
LA 9
ND 3
SD 3
TN 11
TX 34
UT 5

[karlrschneider]

13. That was fast! Where'd you find them?

Here in OK, it's a crime not to vote for the "winner", although a fairly minor misdemeanor...but I'm familiar with some of them and they'd never ever cast a vote for JK even if it weren't "illegal"
:grr:

[berni_mccoy]

18. The list of states where law/no law on EC is here

http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/electoral_college/laws.html

[karlrschneider]

21. Thanks! I found another list too,

http://www.citruscollege.com/DE/solheim/hist108-1/The%20Electoral%20College.htm

[bunny planet]

22. Virginia almost went blue, if it wasn't for the shaving it probably would

have. I'll bet that's a good place to try and convince electors, also Georgia, where they stole Max Cleland's election from him in 2002. Daschle's state might have electors that feel badly that the election was stolen from a 20yr. veteran Senator, because it was. Am I up to 18 yet? Definitely the guy from WV is ripe, has he been apprised of all the fraudulent and disenfranchising shenanigi? Lots of people in Texas did not vote for Bush, and maybe electors can be convinced there. I must be up to 18 by now.

Toodles.

[Razorback_Democrat]

28. How can you find names?

I googled Arkansas electors and got nothing about names

any suggestions?

[berni_mccoy]

9. Man with determination like you gusy have

No wonder Kerry's gone dark.

I don't get it. Here's a perfectly good way to win and you all are whining and bitching that it would be too hard.

CMON PEOPLE! Do you really want to win or what?

This is a real shot at winning. There are plenty of republicans that are NOT happy with Bush. In fact, this is a foundation of Arnebeck's lawsuit in Ohio: that no one would suspect buffering bush's vote in heavily republican districts when in fact, there are many republicans that would vote for Kerry.

We only have to convince 18 people to do the right thing. These republicans definitely aren't getting what they voted for. Look at the mass exodus from the cabinet. Look at the continuing chaos in Iraq. Look at the continuing downward spiral of our economy and the dollar. I think many republicans may have doubts since Nov 2. Bush has certainly given them plenty of reason for doubt.

We already have one EV who is going to withhold his vote. We can also win by having 35 EVs withhold their votes.

[operafred]

27. i totally agree with you.

this is a real possibility and needs to be pursued. if we fail, we fail but if we try and fail we can never say we didn't try.

[Her Blondness]

11. Issues which could sway a moderate red elector?

Things even a republican may be pissed off about:

1. Dismissal of Colin Powell

2. But no dismissal of Rumsfeld

3. Condi Rice appointment

4. With bush as president, the gop will take big losses in congress in 2006 because of the backlash. If Kerry is president, they will probably keep both houses.

5. Imminent supreme court appointment, some republicans are actually pro-choice

6. Proposed privatization of social security

7. The evangelical conservative christian mandate. Not every republican wants a theocracy, some are only pragmatic fiscal conservatives.

8. Invasion of Iran being trial-ballooned.


9. And the fact that the country is pretty much going to hell in a handbasket, wiser heads should see that regardless of party affiliation.

I know there's more. If we are going to write letters in a attempt to persuade electors, these are some topics we might bring up.

[paula777]

17. I know for a fact Republican are really pissed off about ...

That 9/11 Intelligence reform bill that passed yesterday. They were very angry it didn't have illegal alien reforms in it and would continue to allow illegals to obtain drivers licenses. Even though the majority of them voted for it, 75 did not. Of the vast majority that did, they did so ONLY because they were promised a major overhaul of illegal immigration laws in the next session. The repukes are so pissed that it passed and the senior ones know that the promise of an overhaul is just bullshit. They feel bush strong armed them. I can't think of an angle to use this though, because all the dems voted for the reform bill.

[ahyums]

19. there is no such thing as a moderate red elector

The electors are at the very core of the base in terms of support. Issues are simply not going to be sufficient to get them to change their mind.

[Her Blondness]

43. There is one in WV

[Gothmog]

12. This was tried in 2000 when we only needed one vote

An attempt was made in 2000 to get one or two GOP electors to be faithless and vote for Gore. It did not work.

There was one West Virginia elector who was talking about voting for Kerry. Is he still on the slate? I have not heard anything about him for a while.

[berni_mccoy]

16. Do you have any links to news items regarding this effort?

That would be helpful. The WV elector said he would withhold his vote from Bush, not necessarily give it to Kerry.

[Dark Secret]

14. We Can't Win Without 100% DNC and/or Kerry Support n/t

[berni_mccoy]

15. Why?

[IndyPriest]

29. Why, indeed!

Bernie,I'm willing to give it a shot. Which of those states has electors most likely to even think about this? Probably not ID, ND, SD, UT, GA, TX or ID. I'd bet there are possibilities in AZ, AR, IA, MO, VA, IN, and LA. What's your bet?

[xtreme69]

20. So let me get this straight...

It's ok for the Electors to vote against the peoples will that they represent, so long as you agree with their vote. Hrm...I'm going to need a little more time to think on this one, but there may be something wrong with the logic. Think the pubbies would tear that apart, if it went anywhere at all (which I doubt).

[renaissanceguy]

26. We're talking about proportioning the electors

in the states that do not mandate a winner-take-all approach.

That is representing the will of the people in those states. Don't forget that there ARE people who voted for Kerry in the red states.
--------------------
Buy liberal and progressive buttons, bumper stickers, and shirts at www.cafepress.com/liberalissues

[ahyums]

23. Unfortunately this is virtually impossible.

Electors are extremely unlikely to be persuadable, they represent the core of the base of the party, they are not swing voters. About the only thing that could possibly get them to change their vote would be solid demonstrable and absolute proof of fraud widespread enough not only to effect the electoral vote but also the popular vote, without that (and if that did/will exist there are other legal remedies anyway I think) getting 20 odd electors to change their votes would be a feat equivalent to getting George Bush Snr. to vote for Kerry, it's next to impossible.

[Wordie]

25. Yes. I think the losing party contemplates this strategy every election,

but to my knowledge, it has never happened in modern history. The parties make sure that their slate of electors are unswayable.

[slackmaster]

24. I think you have lost your way, berni_mccoy

If the will of the people truly is to keep George W. Bush in the White House, who are you or I to attempt to make things otherwise?

It seems to me the height of hubris, to impose MY will on others even if they are misguided.

[IndyPriest]

30. Slack, the whole point of the fraud issue...

is that the "will of the people" may be MUCH different than we imagine.

[slackmaster]

45. Two word reply

"Or not."

I want the actual vote counted accurately, whichever way it turns out.

[berni_mccoy]

31. WIll of the PEOPLE? Are you Serious?

The evidence shows that the will of the people was misrepresented on election day doesn't matter to you...? 10s of thousands of cases of irregularities, thousands of cases of voter disenfranchisement, and Blackwell's (and others') blatent attempts to disallow large groups of the population a right to vote? That's not even getting to the FRAUD issue.

With all the above the side, have you ever thought our system was about the will of the people? Incredible if you did. Our system is not about that, and if we move forward with the current administration in power, the will of the people will be denegrated even further. Less than 1/2 of the voting population voted, so doe the other 1/2 of the people not have will? Are we sure they didn't try to vote?

We aren't playing a fair game here. And if we can convince 18 people to turn this election by doing the right thing, then I think that speaks LOUDLY to the will of the people. It has been done in the past, by both sides. And the will of the people have not demanded a change in the system. Here is some reading for you: http://www.fairvote.org/e_college/faithless.htm

And slackmaster, I mean no disrespect, but it is not I who have lost my way. It is you who has not found your way yet.

[slackmaster]

44. Let's deal with concrete facts

The evidence shows that the will of the people was misrepresented on election day doesn't matter to you...?

I am not convinced that whatever fraudulent activity was involved in the 2004 election was sufficient to change the outcome. If it was, then the result needs to be changed. So far it has not been proved.

[berni_mccoy]

46. Don't just quote part of what I said

That's taking it out of context.

As I said:


"The evidence shows that the will of the people was misrepresented on election day doesn't matter to you...? 10s of thousands of cases of irregularities, thousands of cases of voter disenfranchisement, and Blackwell's (and others') blatent attempts to disallow large groups of the population a right to vote? That's not even getting to the FRAUD issue."

We don't need to get to Fraud to show that this election does not represent the will of the people.

[electropop]

32. Maybe we could bribe them with that $29M check... n/t

[keepthemhonest]

33. i am so glad you started this thread

Conyers was very impressed with that man ,did anyone notice. This is definately exciting news. Please everyone keep us updated on what Conyers thinks about this, he said if it was true that we could win.

[garybeck]

34. You're forgetting one thing

all of those people are registered republicans. they all want Bush.

[IAMREALITY]

35. Yeah, Good Luck On That One

This has been brought up multiple times on DU already. I know it is asked with good intentions, but the reality of it is that we have a better shot at the shrub conceding then overturing 18 extremely loyal republican electors.

Let's put it in perspective. The task is the same size as trying to convince not one, not two, but eighteen friggin Sean Hannity's to walk in a cast their vote for Kerry instead.

Look, I'm with ya on the heart, but in the reality-Ain't Gonna Happen.

[Gothmog]

36. Here is an article on Faithless Electors Watch

See http://slate.msn.com/id/2110786/

Four years ago, it struck me as a very real possibility that three Bush electors would betray the Republicans and cast their votes for Al Gore, thereby aligning Gore's popular-vote plurality with an Electoral College victory. After all, I reasoned, in recent presidential elections there had more often than not been a "faithless elector" (and if you count the "Greeley faithless," of whom only a tiny elite of Electoral College bores is aware, then going all the way back to George Washington there have been more faithless electors than presidential elections). Perhaps the trauma of Bush's popular-vote loss would persuade two Republicans outraged by the antidemocratic workings of the Electoral College to jump ship. There was, after all, no federal prohibition against their doing so, and state laws binding electors to the popular vote within their state are generally thought unconstitutional. The Nation magazine very naughtily urged that three Republican electors step forward to spare the nation four years of George W. Bush, which in retrospect sounds like an excellent idea. But it was not to be....

The magic number for 2004 is 18. If 18 Bush electors betray both their party and the popular vote and cast their votes for John Kerry on Dec. 13—when, as we Electoral College bores like to point out, the real presidential election takes place in state capitals around the country—then John Kerry will become president. It isn't remotely likely, and it would violate the principle of democratic government (just as the Electoral College itself does). But it remains in the realm of the possible.

The one presidential elector who has threatened to go faithless this year is a Republican. He is Richie Robb, mayor of Charleston, W. Va., and three months ago he was threatening to withhold his electoral vote from Bush to protest the president's policies. A little more than a month ago he reaffirmed that threat. After the election, Robb said that Bush's margin of victory in West Virginia was sufficiently great that he would probably vote for Bush after all, but he still refused to say so for certain. Today is the deadline for states to replace electors and still keep their electoral vote count "presumptively valid" when Congress formally tallies the votes on Jan. 5. (Yet another argument against the Electoral College: This ceremonial crap takes more than two months to wrap up.) Yet Robb, bafflingly, has not been dropped as a Bush elector. So that may be one faithless elector right there.

[Karenca]

47. that faithless elector article you posted - You may want to start a new

thread about it---Its very interesting, and might be a chance for us that we are overlooking (richie robb)

[DoYouEverWonder]

37. Don't the State Legislators pick their electors

That's how it works in FL. Unfortunately, both houses in FL are REP. What is the status of the states on your list? If any of them are DEM we might have a chance.

[Catherine Vincent]

38. I think that would be a good idea if the 18 electors in the states

where fraud was proven (or Kerry got the most votes) would switch their vote. It's the right thing to do.

[GreenPartyVoter]

39. I suppose it's nor more difficult a path than impeaching ** Heck, let's go

for it.

http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[VTGold]

40. Did you notice that Conyers was exited too? His little face lit up.

[keepthemhonest]

42. yeah and of all people he should know what might be possible

or not, he seemed very impressed with the guy and that not any lawyers had mentioned the idea yet.

[malatesta1137]

41. if only Kerry

had a backbone and actually WANTED to win.

[EMunster]

48. Pull it off and you might finally see some FBI action -- all 18 electors..

...and whomever else would be arrested under some RICO act, maybe even for treason. THAT would become the new FRAUD! story of the right. Those 18 would have to expect a hailstorm. At the very least, they'd be facing years of litigation defending themselves...lots of death threats...destroyed careers, etc.

That's how these people work.

You might find one brave, courageous and principled person among those electors willing to go the distance. Maybe even two. But 18? To repeat a comment upthread -- THEY ARE ALL REGISTERED REPUBLICANS. Anyone who's been supporting Bush's lies up to now isn't likely to suddenly become principled.

[berni_mccoy]

49. Here is the current list of electors from Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_electors%2C_2004

Of course, it's not complete yet, but definitely gives us a start on some of the states we are interested in.


2004 U.S. presidential electors, by state:

Alabama - Republican -
http://www.sos.state.al.us/downloads/election/2004/general/electors-bush.pdf
Beth Chapman (b. 1962) of Birmingham, at-large elector. Chapman is the Alabama State Auditor; a public relations and politcal consultant, she worked with several Republican campaigns in Alabama, serves as press secretary and campaign manager for Steve Windom, and was elected state auditor in 2002.
Marty Connors of Alabaster, at-large elector. Connors is the chair of the Alabama Republican Party.
Martha Hosey of Gulf Shore, elector for the 1st Congressional district. Hosey has been an officer in the Alabama Federation of Republican Women.
Will Sellers of Montgomery, elector for the 2nd Congressional district. Sellers, an attorney, is a veteran of multiple Republican campaigns.
Mike Hubbard of Auburn, elector for the 3rd Congressional district. Hubbard represents the 79th district in the Alabama House of Representatives, first elected in 1998.
Floyd Lawson of Cullman, elector for the 4th Congressional district.
Elbert Peters of Huntsville, elector for the 5th Congressional district.
Bettye Fine Collins of Trussville, elector for the 6th Congressional district.
Martha Stokes of Carrollton, Alabama, elector for the 7th Congressional district.


Alaska - Republican -
http://www.gov.state.ak.us/ltgov/elections/forms/2004electorslist.pdf
Gloria J. Tokar of Palmer, Alaska.
Frederick H. Hahn of Anchorage, Alaska.
Roberly R. Waldron of Anchorage, Alaska


Arizona - Republican
Linda Barber
Malcolm Barrett
Jim Click
Cynthia J. Collins
Webb Crockett
Elizabeth Wilkinson Fannin
Ross Farnsworth
Ira A. Fulton
Bernice C. Roberts
Phillip Townsend


Arkansas - Republican

California - Democratic - http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/elector_list_2004.pdf
Robert H. Manley of Los Angeles, at-large elector.
Barbara Schraeger of Sausalito, at-large elector.
C. Paul Johnson of Napa, elector for the 1st Congressional district.
Gary Simmons of Chico, elector for the 2nd Congressional district.
Paul Batterson of Fair Oaks, elector for the 3rd Congressional district.
Diana Madoshi of Rocklin, elector for the 4th Congressional district.
Kyriakos Tsakopoulos of Granite Bay, elector for the 5th Congressional district.
Donald Linker of Tiburon, elector for the 6th Congressional district.
Paula Sandusky of Vacaville, elector for the 7th Congressional district.
Adam Woo of San Francisco, elector for the 8th Congressional district.
Chloe Drew of San Francisco, elector for the 9th Congressional district.
Karl Sliferv of San Ramon, elector for the 10th Congressional district.
Gary Prost of Livermore, elector for the 11th Congressional district.
Joseph Cotchett of Burlingame, elector for the 12th Congressional district.
John Smith of Fremont, elector for the 13th Congressional district.
George Marcus of Los Altos Hills, elector for the 14th Congressional district.
Mark Hsu of Atherton, elector for the 15th Congressional district.
Adele Bihn of San Jose, elector for the 16th Congressional district.
Darrell Darling of Santa Cruz, elector for the 17th Congressional district.
Amarjit Dhaliwal of Modesto, elector for the 18th Congressional district.
Rocco Davis of Roseville, elector for the 19th Congressional district.
Kenneth Costa of Fresno, elector for the 20th Congressional district.
Barbara Pyle of Fresno, elector for the 21st Congressional district.
David Johnson of Los Angeles, elector for the 22nd Congressional district.
Andrew M. Siegel of Santa Barbara, elector for the 23rd Congressional district.
Michael Carpenter of Lake View Terrace, elector for the 24th Congressional district.
Lynda Von Husen of Palmdale, elector for the 25th Congressional district.
Randy Monroe of Running Springs, elector for the 26th Congressional district.
Lane M. Sherman of Northridge, elector for the 27th Congressional district.
Moreen Blum of Sherman Oaks, elector for the 28th Congressional district.
Yolanda Dyer of Norwalk, elector for the 28th Congressional district.
Paul I. Goldenberg of La Habra Heights, elector for the 29th Congressional district.
Lenore Wax of Los Angeles, elector for the 30th Congressional district.
Mitch O'Farrell of Los Angeles, elector for the 31st Congressional district.
Franklin A. Acevedo of Los Angeles, elector for the 32nd Congressional district.
Gwen Moore of Los Angeles, elector for the 33rd Congressional district.
Pedro Carillo of Los Angeles, elector for the 34th Congressional district.
Karen Walters of Inglewood, elector for the 35th Congressional district.
Ted Lieu of Torrance, elector for the 36th Congressional district.
Valerie McDonald of Long Beach, elector for the 37th Congressional district.
Marvin Kropke of Pasadena, elector for the 39th Congressional district.
Douglas E. Hitchcock of Garden Grove, elector for the 40th Congressional district.
Barbara Kerr of iverside, elector for the 41st Congressional district.
Salvador Sanchez of Los Angeles, elector for the 42nd Congressional district.
Joe Baca, Jr. of San Bernardino, elector for the 43rd Congressional district.
Grant Gruber of Riverside, elector for the 44th Congressional district.
James T. Ewing of Yucaipa, elector for the 45th Congressional district.
Louise Giacoppe of Huntington Beach, elector for the 46th Congressional district.
James G. Bohm of Irvine, elector for the 47th Congressional district.
N. Mark Lam of Fountain Valley, elector for the 48th Congressional district.
Chuck Lowery of Oceanside, elector for the 49th Congressional district.
Susan Koehler of Carlsbad, elector for the 50th Congressional district.
Mary Salas of Chula Vista, elector for the 51st Congressional district.
Andrew Benjamin of Spring Valley, elector for the 52nd Congressional district.
Margaret Lawrence of San Diego, elector for the 53rd Congressional district.


Colorado - Republican
Connecticut - Democratic
Delaware - Democratic
District of Columbia - Democratic
Florida - Republican

Georgia - Republican - http://www.sos.state.ga.us/elections/presidential_electors_04.htm
Anna R. Cablik
Fred Cooper
Nancy N. Coverdell
James C. Edenfield
Karen Handel
Donald F. Layfield
Carolyn Dodgen Meadows
Sunny K. Park
Alex Poitevint
Joan Ransom
Nardender G. Reddy
Jame Raynolds
Norma Mountain Rogers
Eric J. Tanenblatt
Virgil Williams


Hawaii - Democratic
Idaho - Republican
Illinois - Democratic
Indiana - Republican
Iowa - Republican

Kansas - Republican - http://www.kssos.org/other/2004_Presidential_Electors.html
Ruth Garvey Fink of Topeka.
Bernard "Bud" Hentzen of Wichita.
Dennis Jones of Lakin.
Wanda Konold of Pratt.
Jack Ranson of Wichita.
Patricia Pitney Smith of Overland Park.


Kentucky - Republican
Louisiana - Republican
Maine - Democatic

Maryland - Democratic - http://www.elections.state.md.us/current_election/index.html
Norman Conway
Delores Kelley
Lainey Lebow Sachs
Pam Jackson
Dorothy Chaney
John Riley
Wendy Fielder
Daphne Bloomberg
Tom Perez
Gary Gensler


Massachusetts - Democratic
Michigan - Democratic
Minnesota - Democratic
Mississippi - Republican
Missouri - Republican
Montana - Republican
Nebraska - Republican
Nevada - Republican
New Hampshire - Democratic
New Jersey - Democratic
New Mexico - Republican
New York - Democratic

North Carolina - Republican
Joseph W. Powell, Jr.
Ann Sullivan
William B. Carraway
Sandra Carter
William H. Trotter
Thomas D. Luckadoo
Judy Keener
Marcia M. Spiegel
Dewitt Rhoades
Davey G. Williamson
Theresa Esposito
Elizabeth Kelly
Larry W. Potts
Joe Morgan
Robert Rector


North Dakota - Republican
Ohio - Republican
Oklahoma - Republican
Oregon - Democratic
Pennsylvania - Democratic
Rhode Island - Democratic

South Carolina - Republican - http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/electoral_college/2004_certificates/ascertainment_south_dakota.html
Dennis M. Daugaard
Larry Long
Mike Rounds


South Dakota - Republican
Tennessee - Republican

Texas - Republican - http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/electoral_college/2004_certificates/ascertainment_texas.html
Marcus Anderson
Bennie Bock
Bill Borden
Larry Bowles
Sue Brannon
Charles Burchett
Marjorie Chandler
Tom Cottar
Christopher DecLuitt
Jan Galbraith
Martha Greenlaw
Barbara Grusendorf
Kathy Haigler
Royce Hayes
Kim Hesley
Kristina Kiik
Lance Lenz
Loyce McCarter
Frank Morris
Dan Mosher
Roger O'Dell
Jay Pierce
Mike Provost
Anna Rice
Rhealyn Samuelson
Nancy Stevens
Cheryl Surber
Mike Ussery
Glenn Warren
Susan Weddington
Jim Wiggins
Morris Woods
Peter Wrench
Sid Young


Utah - Republican

Vermont - Democratic - http://vermont-elections.org/elections1/2004GEPresElectors.pdf
Billi Gosh of Brookfield.
Paul Highberg of Woodstock.
Jeffry Taylor of Clarendon.


Virginia - Republican
Washington - Democratic
West Virginia - Republican
Wisconsin - Democratic


Wyoming - Republican - http://soswy.state.wy.us/election/2004/elector.htm
Linda Barker of Cheyenne.
Jack Van Mark of Torrington.
Mike Baker of Thermopolis.