AP: "Jackson Vow to Continue Ohio Vote Probe" + Kerry Statement...

[sabra]

<<SNIP>>
http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041208/APA/412080710

Published Wednesday, December 8, 2004

Jackson Vow to Continue Ohio Vote Probe

By MALIA RULON
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON
A Democratic congressman and Jesse Jackson said Wednesday they will continue to investigate complaints of election irregularities in Ohio, but they won't call for a delay in the official certification process.

Rep. John Conyers of Michigan, the top Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, convened a hearing to examine accusations of voting problems in Ohio. Many of the election complaints, such as disparities in vote totals and a shortage of voting machines in Democratic-leaning urban precincts, have already been cited and explained.


Kerry issued a statement in response to Wednesday's session, saying he supports an investigation into reported problems to ensure there are no doubts in future elections.

"It's critical that we investigate and understand any and every voting irregularity anywhere in our country, not because it would change the outcome of the election but because Americans have to believe that their votes are counted in our democracy," said the Massachusetts senator.

The Kerry campaign is supporting an Ohio recount sought by two third-party candidates.

<</SNIP>>

[Stand and Fight]

1. Tssssk...

Kerry didn't have very much to say. I wish they would attack this thing head on.

[madison2000]

2. It sounds pretty lukewarm to me.

I heard the Republicans on the House Committee did not even show up.

WHY does Kerry have to add "not because it would change the outcome of the election"?

What if the recount does change the outcome of the election?

[sabra]

3. Kerry has been pretty neutral thus far...

I still believe he has a plan, not sure which direction it will be though...

[propagandafreegal]

23. Maybe the plan is to enjoy his payoff. nm

[SammyWinstonJack]

24. A plan we don't need to know about apparently.

:eyes:

[hippiechick]

47. Sssshhh, be vewwwwy quiet ...

It's a BIG SECRET and only the most important people need to know, and that's definitely not us (the voters, donators and campaign volunteers). :eyes:


:hippie:

[Nothing Without Hope]

69. Surely Kerry knows...

...that with his very fast concession and his relative silence since then, he has disheartened many of his supporters and enraged many whose support he would need in further political efforts later on. His image as a fighter against all odds for rights and integrity would be seriously smudged if this is really all there is. Either he is following some strategy we can't see or he really isn't such a good politician after all. I haven't given up on him yet, but I'm worried.

[Old and In the Way]

9. I agree.

The Party doesn't seem to get it. They walk on this election at their own peril. They may well be sealing their demise and ours because many people who trusted Kerry to fight will not bother to vote Democrat (or for any Party for that matter) again.

His responses are way too conciliatory and defeatist....I've given him plenty of slack to fight this any way he needs too. But if he really has decided to wave the white flag, I don't know why the Democratic Party thinks we will continue to support them if they won't support us.

[Zookeeper]

15. It was emphasized during the hearing...

that all of the Republicans were invited and NONE of them showed up. I watched the entire thing and found it very powerful and important. Watch for a transcript or re-run.

[zann725]

25. The 'not that it will change anything' defense bothers me too.

If the situation were reversed, and even 1/100th of the "irregularities" were being noted by Republicans instead of Dems's...they wouldn't be 'rolling over' and saying, 'gee wiz, could we please just take a look...please.'
"Alpha" types become Alpha's because they do NOT roll over, do NOT apologize.
If we're not just wasting our time, we need to start acting like winners, like "Alpha's," and demand what is fair and just NOW!

[marylanddem]

54. Totally agree

It's as if Kerry et al. are continually bending over backwards to prove how "fair" and "calm" and "objective" they are to people who don't give a rats ass about anything but winning at any cost - elections, wars, whatever, no matter how much blood is on their hands.
I wish they'd stop being so fucking afraid of how they appear to these assholes and start showing some backbone.

[no safe haven]

55. It's becoming new meme a la Seinfeld's...

"Not that there's anything wrong with that."

[marylanddem]

56. You're right about the Seinfeld analogy...

"It's critical that we investigate and understand any and every voting irregularity anywhere in our country," said Kerry. "Not that we want to win or anything...heaven forbid!"

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

72. "Not that it will change anything" seems to be the Big Dems Talking Point.

It is of course disheartening to hear, and yet, doesn't his neutrality regarding this keep the Republican wolves at bay?

I have two conflicted thoughts about Kerry. It is either he took a fall, or he's playing an exquisite chess game....

[seito]

91. So that the investigation stays focused on uncovering

the systematic disenfranchisement of voters and fraud. If the recount does change the election results GREAT!!! In the meantime, keep the attention focused on the issues at hand.

[distantearlywarning]

4. When has anybody explained shortage of vote machines

in Democratic districts? I haven't heard ANY explanation of that so far? Is this from the "tell a lie enough times and it becomes fact" school of journalism.

Way to preserve the American Way, AP.

[mod mom]

5. I just got a letter from OH Dem Party

requesting money to help them in their investigation. I thought it was audacious considering it was us progressives who had to fund the glibs, and who have been funding the investigation, rallies, ect. They should send $ to us.

[smartvoter]

8. Tell them to ask Kerry for it -- he's got it on hand.

[Debbie13]

100. Am I the only one who thinks that Kerry/Edwards is handling this correctly

Perhaps I am, but I think with what happened after Gore they are preceding in a correct, classy manner. (Kerry would be torn to shreds otherwise).

IMO, now there is an investigation and when the fraud is found, then it will be presented.

Hang tight. We'll get there.

[SueZhope]

6. what is everyones take on this weird comment from Kerry?

"It's critical that we investigate and understand any and every voting irregularity anywhere in our country, not because it would change the outcome of the election but because Americans have to believe that their votes are counted in our democracy," said the Massachusetts senator.

why not ..because it might change the election???
Or is this still part of his cover?
thoughts? I want to believe but its hard

[pbartch]

18. when did Kerry state this???

[sabra]

19. Today.. Check the initial post - article n/t

[Window]

38. I want to believe Kerry has a plan also,

but it does become harder as each day passes. I'm hoping he has a hold card.

[Griffy]

76. makes sense..

its in the words... the investigating and understanding is not done to win... its done to be fair and just. Kerry knows the media is waiting for him to say he thinks he won.. thats the moment they will pounce, in my opinion. So he is waiting.. trying to inspire us.. the people.. he wants to win, be assured, but he is waiting for the right moment. This aint over and he knows it, just wait, he will turn this boat DIRECTLY into the enemy... think about it!

[BlueStateBlue]

78. I take it as a positive message from Kerry

"not because it would change the outcome of the election, but because Americans have to believe that their votes are counted in our democracy"

My interpretation is that he is saying it WOULD change the outcome of the election. It's critical to investigate, not for THIS valid reason, but for THAT one.

Call me crazy, but that was my first reaction when I read it.

[New Earth]

81. yup

i said the same thing, one other person noticed it....i think the three of us are right :)

[seito]

92. Democrats are taking lessons in "framing the argument"

Right now the focus is on blatant disregard for voter rights and fraud. The public needs to know about what happened across this country, but the message can not come from John Kerry. If he speaks up now, he will get the media attention, but it will NOT help our cause.

Learn from the mistakes of the past or you will be doomed to repeat them.

[Im with Rosey]

101. The way Kerry says things

is very carefully thought through, I think. Maybe I am wrong, but I think he is being an attorney and making sure there is NOTHING that he says that can come back to haunt him, next week, next year or 2008. I for one believe FIRMLY that he knows what he is doing!

[LiberalAndProud]

87. I have wondered what would be the advantage to screaming

"I really won if you would just count the votes." The question is, if the count takes place and a different outcome is detected, will he fight for the office?

Kerry had no presence in the hearings today, though, and I wonder how committed he is to making sure that the votes are counted. It seems to me a matter of common courtesy to acknowledge the people are are making such heroic efforts to make their voices heard. COMMON COURTESY!

[Vidar]

7. We need one senator to formalize the investigation. If Kerry

really supports it, there is his chance. I'm not holding my breath.

[shraby]

10. Novak on Crossfire called the Dems "sorelosers"

Imagine what would happen if Kerry came out stronger about the election fraud?

[whistle]

13. f**k Novak or any other talking head, I say the louder the. . .

... voices the more respect there will be for our position. But, those voices must be based in facts and truth. Assemble the evidence, then hit the opposition hard with the truth.

[Vidar]

16. Politically, you're correct--it should be Graham or someone exiting.

However, playing politics this way let's the other side frame the issues.

[SueZhope]

17. I hope that is true and that is why he is talking like this

His comment sounded bizarrely forced.
Not natural ..going out of his way to say not to overturn the election

[Nothing Without Hope]

66. Apparently, for Novak treason is less a crime (n/t)

[vanboggie]

68. Sharpton's retort was perfect

I don't remember his exact words, but it was something to the effect of - What are you afraid of? If Bush really won, wouldn't you like that to be proven?

I think that's our best argument against the naysayers.

[genieroze]

75. Well, they are guilty cheaters. eom

[whistle]

11. Kerry sounds like he never wanted to be president he just. . .

. . . wanted to be in the spotlight of the democratic campaign:

"It's critical that we investigate and understand any and every voting irregularity anywhere in our country, not because it would change the outcome of the election but because Americans have to believe that their votes are counted in our democracy,"

Why not change the outcome if the election was stolen? As Lee Iaccoca former Chrysler Corp CEO used to say, "Lead, follow or get out of the way!"

In the future we democrats want not only the assurance that our votes are counted, that all who want to vote be allowed to vote and that no shadow government can alter or change the outcome and thus steal our democracy, but we also want the assurance that when our party appoints a candidate for president, that candidate will fight for what is legitimately his or hers! The same must hold true for all of our elected officials.

[hippiechick]

46. I think you're half right, Whistle ...

I'm not so sure Kerry wanted to be President so much as he and TPTB in DC didn't want Howard Dean to be President.


:hippie:

[whistle]

57. TPTB???

...Yes, it was partly a strategy of keeping Dean from being the democratic presidential candidate, but I just can't believe that Kerry and the democratic leadership felt that it would be better to let the reTHUGs steal the election then to be in control of the oval office. At least not initially.

Something changed. I did not suspect immediately, but in hindsight I believe in happened after the second debate with Bush. It was when Kerry in the second debate after the VP debates made the reference to Cheney's daughter being a lesbian after Schaeffer couched that bullshit question about moral values. Remember, Bush came over at the end and whispered in Kerry's ear. I think Bush threatened Kerry as only a president of the U.S. is able to and I believe it was a nasty real threat. Kerry was all too eager 36 hours after the election to concede, even after Edwards issued that mid-night hope speech about fighting this all the way.

Damn, I was really convinced that Kerry would be the intelligent but deliberate strong relentless pursuer of his legitimate victory. But he just seems to want to let it go. I keep hoping I am totally wrong about this, but come December 15th, we will all have the answer. After that, we the people will have to take over the pursuit of justice and expose these thieving rat bastards.

[politicasista]

58. Why is Kerry just gone let Bush steal another election?

This is making him look bad.

[hippiechick]

95. TPTB = "The Powers That Be" n/t

:hi:

:hippie:

[AmerDem]

12. I'm tired of Kerry's weak ass attitude

I really am. Screw this bastard for going back on his word. These word hold zero passion what so ever. They come across as something noted today to be used down the road to show how he stood up for the recount.

brief, passionless and generic bs.

[sabra]

14. I still believe...

I am hoping for a December suprise from Kerry! But as the days go by...

[Wordie]

28. First of all, he CANNOT come out screaming and carrying on: it would not

do any good at all. If it was an election with a tiny margin, as the 2000 election had, perhaps he could, but not one with a margin this large. And secondly, we are only getting the reporters' take on what he said. Only a short little blurb, from which you really can tell very little anyway.

[LisaM]

44. For all we know, he's making a speech on it every day

They didn't cover him BEFORE the election. Why should they start now?

[pgh_dem]

74. right on, good point...n/t

[corbett]

59. Conyers Forum Was A Huge Step But No Reason To Divulge End Game

In the absence of information, it's REALLY easy to speculate and think that Kerry has become Mr. Milquetoast over the whole recount thing. Not true! He keeps his campaign promises. He made several but the two which bear on this issue directly are:

1) Never surrender; and

2) Make sure every vote counts and every vote is counted.

Right now, he's playing opossum. He's enjoying some quiet time and doing his part to guide 2004's remaining Senate vote as best he can. Besides, he didn't have much of a holiday season in 2003 because of the primaries and he won't have one as President in 2005 so now's the time.

It's all strategy! So far, every one of his quiet moves after 11/3 has worked in his favor, even if he seems wimpy at the moment! He's building toward critical mass and if you examine it at the macro level, this creeping stealth mode of his is strategically sound. When it breaks through to the national consciousness, he'll have hundreds of thousands of people ready to line the streets.

[New Earth]

60. sounds good.

i hope you are right.

[AmerDem]

64. Who said anything about coming out screaming?

Why did he concede so friggin quick?

[ClassWarrior]

35. That's like saying, "If you love me, kill yourself."

I see the naysayers and self-pitiers are out in force again today.

NGU.

[AmerDem]

65. no

It's like saying why the hell did he concede so early after giving his word to fight with everything he had. Notice the difference?

[ClassWarrior]

82. So how do you know he's not fighting with everything he has?

NGU.

[AmerDem]

99. are you honestly telling me

You feel Kerry didn't bow out to early? You honestly feel Kerry has been fighting with everything he has? You honestly feel all the people who supported him should be proud of the way he has been out in the public eye talking about the endless fraud? Truthfully, if you honestly feel this way you are about the only person I know of who thinks so.

[RevCheesehead]

85. All those "doom and gloomers" - whazzup with that??

(Hi, sweetie! :hi:)

C'mon, people! You don't win friends and influence the powerful by screaming at the top of your lungs. Good Lord, Kerry has almost 20 years of experience at dealing with these people. Do you think he began the BCCI investigation by "demanding" anything???

A little patience and a positive attitude will go a long way, folks!

[buddysmellgood]

20. Republicans are the Sore Losers. They didn't win and they cry every time

we threaten to count the votes. God forbid we actually count the votes and find out by how many Kerry won.

[seito]

93. Republican have control of the media too

It gives them a lot more slack in how they approach an issue. We have one chance to get this right. I'll take a well thought out strategy over a guns blazing assault.

[karlrschneider]

21. Maybe I'm crazier than a shithouse rat, but it seems he doesn't want to be

"GOREd" like in 00...(even though, of course Chimp* filed the first legal action, which many people have forgotten or refuse to acknowledge)...

* or at least Chimp's "people" (Jas Baker et al)...

I keep having to remind myself how JK would be pilloried for getting directly involved by the insane RW spinteam & media...

[sabra]

22. How crazy is a "shithouse rat"?

I def think that 2k is on Kerry's mind, and he is taking what happened there into consideration...

[karlrschneider]

29. I don't really know, it's a phrase I first heard 50+ years ago and seems

somehow appropriate. :D

My RW dad used to say it now and then...and I picked up a few other 'choice' words...I can remember one day when I was about 6, riding in the car in St. Louis and some guy pulled out in front of us almost causing a crash, leaning out the window and shouting "you cocksucker" (having no earthly idea what it meant) Boy, did I get some shit for that one. :evilgrin:

[JunkYardDogg]

31. karlschneider you're only 40, guess you are crazy

If we had a good National Health Care program
the Bushwacker could hook you up with some good meds or maybe shock treatment to straighten ya' out
or maybe in a year his Christian Taliban Gestapo Thought Police will do it for free

[mirandapriestly]

45. That is hilarious! n/t

[Catherine Vincent]

26. Oh my!

nevermind

[liam97]

27. We should bombard Kerry

with a one-line email/fax "Senator Kerry we are giving up on you"

[Quakerfriend]

30. Don't lose faith people

I think he's sending us the message that he's not going anywhere. His statements and appearances seem to be timed.....every 2-3 days....is this a sign to us. I sure hope the perfect storm is coming......He knows how much is at stake for this country...I still don't think that he will let us down. His birthday is on Dec. 11th. Wonder what his horoscope says...??! If he refuses to accept the vote of the EC..we will all be out in the streets and behind him!

[eowyn_of_rohan]

34. Thanks for the encouragement

I have about lost my patience, and wish I could think of a truly constructive outlet for all this pent up emotion.

[ClassWarrior]

36. Speak for yourself.

NGU.

[Peace Patriot]

50. I totally agree we should bombard email/fax Kerry...

...but I don't think you can help inspire someone to act by saying, "We're giving up on you." I think the message should be very strong, but should couch the threats in much more significant terms.

For instance, look how Jesse Jackson initially put it, in the hearing today: that the Dems shouldn't wait for Michael Moore to come back "to document another capitulation."

He also framed the issue very well--"the long road from Selma to Ohio." And other such references, letting the Dems know what was at stake here.

This is much more serious than the fate of one candidate. At the very least, the fate of the Dem Party is at stake. And at the worst, the fate of our democracy and our country.

What we want is for Kerry to rise to the challenge--to be inspired, as we are, by the great heroes of democracy, Gandhi, ML King, Nelson Mandela, or the elderly black woman who stood out in the rain for hours, to vote for him.

He DOES have it in him. I believe that. And I'm not ready to judge him yet, considering the extremely dicey and dangerous position he's in.

But I certainly think that a realistic assessment of what the Dem Party's fate will likely be, if they don't defend our right to vote, should be conveyed to him--as well as calling him on his statement that "every vote will be counted."

The Dem leadership, including Kerry, owe us an apology for their failure to prevent a fraudulent election system from being put into place over the last four years--an election system with the key elements OWNED and CONTROLLED by rightwing Republicans and Bush "Pioneers." It was a mind-boggling failure. They need to clear the air about this.

I would also suggest appealing to the man's sense of history. That thoughtful veteran and courageous antiwar protestor--as well as BCII and Iran-Contra investigator--are still in there somewhere.

I'm giving him until Jan. 6.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

32. I am getting REAL SICK of this lame rap!!!

"not because it would change the outcome of the election"
and the half-hearted support they are giving this.

[Bleacher Creature]

33. I was just about to post the same thing!

He and his people never utter a word about Ohio without using some variation of this line. Seriously, EVERY SINGLE TIME.

We get it.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

37. They are losing what remnants were left of their "honor"

Don't you think? Wouldn't it be more honorable of them to take a stand with us now, knowing what we ALL know now, not in the name of "fraud" but in the name of democracy?

[Quakerfriend]

40. Well, I do love the way Arnebeck spoke

today. Had the same convictions we all express. And, I heard on another thread that "a friend emailed from MA and told me that Arnebeck and Kerry have been good friends for 20 years" This little tid bit might buck your spirits up a little.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

42. Arnebeck was a knight in shining armor

And I am surprised and slightly uplifted to hear he is a good friend of John Kerry. I have always thought that the reason Kerry isn't speaking out more is that he is being stifled in some way, and the rest of the Democratic senators, too.

[Farmgirl]

79. Hey libertybelle...

could you direct me to the thread that talks about Arnebeck and Kerry being good friends for 20 years? I'd like to find out more about that...

:kick:

[Bleacher Creature]

41. It's sad, but yes.

Because he started out with a hell of a lot of honor. I understand that he doesn't want to put the country through a constitutional crisis if he doesn't have to -- and that is still honorable -- but there is a middle ground. All he has to say is that we need to see what happened in Ohio and go from there.

[corbett]

62. It's An Understandable Side Effect Of Desperation

Have you seen the recent film "Behind Enemy Lines" with Owen Wilson and Gene Hackman? It's pretty good. Well, it's relevant to this topic. Many of the Kerry supporters now calling him a wimp do so because they feel abandoned and/or are grasping at straws. It's an understandable reaction, especially since the Righties are so smug! They feel like they're stuck behind enemy lines.

Buck up, everyone! It's always darkest before the dawn. Prepare for Santa to come early this year!

[eowyn_of_rohan]

80. I will take that thought to bed with me

and hope and pray for good to come of all this. Thanks

[SomthingsGotaGive]

71. You know this OHIO this has gone a lot further than I thought it would....

Not as far as I hope it will but we're getting there.

I too was irritated by Kerry's concession and the silence that ensued.

But as time has gone on and investigations HAVE proceeded I wonder how much would have been accomplished if Kerry had made this about him and given the republicans something to attack.

Right now the best they got is..

"those damn bloggers"

Yes, still, after one month the right wing attack machine is virtually silent and we had herrings today.

WOO HOO

[politicasista]

39. Jesse needs to talk some since into Kerry

He needs to stop saying "not because it would change the outcome of the election." That's what it SHOULD be about, as well as protecting democracy. BOOOO.

[New Earth]

43. i can pick Kerry's words apart and make something positive out of them

he said "not because IT WOULD CHANGE THE OUTCOME OF THE ELECTION"........see, he knows it would change if a recount was done.

stop worrying guys!

:o

heheheh

[hippiechick]

48. Cripes, we can pick the weather forecast apart

... and make some positive coded message out of that, too .... :freak:


:hippie:

[ZRB]

53. Woops

I missed your post, but obviously I agree!

[robbedvoter]

49. "Not because it would change the outcome" - was the disclaimer necessary?

Why couldn't he just say it's important that every vote counts?

[shraby]

51. You all have seen the republicans stay on message...

even if it didn't make any sense.

You'll notice the Dems are staying on message this time. I believe it's the first time I've seen that happen. Maybe the emphasis is supposed to be on the second part like the poster above noted.

[corbett]

67. Stay On Counterintuitive Message - Right On

Beating the enemy at his own game is a strategy as old as the hills and Kerry was quite successful at it in his brief but distinguished military career on the front lines. We are so accustomed to hearing the truth from Kerry and spin from the Rove camp that we don't know how to handle active misdirection from the Democrats.

Parallel to that is the need to set up the posture for the coming Kerry administration. Remember how it was in 2001? Dubya knew that he had a mandate to unite the nation. He failed miserably because he's a sophomoric ideologue but Kerry will be in a similar situation, even if the REAL voting numbers had him winning by a landslide. In order for the beginning of his first term to be as smooth as possible, Kerry will need to come to office with the attitude of, "I'm as surprised as you are" and "I rode a tidal wave of grass roots support right onto Pennsylvania Avenue."

Besides, if Cliff Arnebeck's recent point about the new alliance between Progressives and Civil Rights groups is placed in this context, Kerry will need help from those groups during the early part of his first term in order to push through the legislation linked to his campaign promises, such as universal health insurance and closing the tax loophole which rewards companies for shipping jobs overseas. In other words, he'll need the grass roots equivalent of the Big Oil/Enron connection which Dubya had when he took office.

[seito]

94. I agree with you corbett

This is the Dem spin. It does not mean a thing except to deprive the Pugs of a media backlash.

I am shocked as hell that this has gone as far as it has Congressional Forums, a Recount, Representatives and at least one Senator considering contesting the election. We have not even seen what evidence Arnebeck is holding.

There is a wide scale cooperative effort going on now. To all the naysayers, look at what we have done so far and ask yourself whether or not this strategy is working better than the strategy taken in 2000.

[ZRB]

52. You could read it another way

The investigation is important- not because it WOULD change the outcome of the election, but for America's confidence in the democratic process blah blah.

He could be saying that he supports the investigation because it is important for democracy, that changing the outcome isn't the purpose, but that would be a nice bunus!

Could be another cryptic statement.

[mattclearing]

63. You could also read it as...

"It's important that people buy the hyped up show that we put on and call an election."

That's terribly cynical, though.

I'm taking him at his word for now, and no matter what his reasoning, it's still the right thing to say.

If he called out Dubya on the fraud, it would just re-start the campaign again. Look at how ugly things are in the Ukraine right now.

Better to find the evidence in peace and then hammer them with it when it's totally bulletproof.

Even if someone else has to do the work and take the heat.

[mattclearing]

61. Perfect response.

When the evidence comes out that it was rigged, he can feign shock and surprise.

"Who me? President Kerry? Well...if you insist."

[Cookie wookie]

70. We don't need cryptic, or lame or weak or

any other crap. We need people with power to fight for THIS election, to make sure that all the votes were counted correctly.

It's breaking my heart that Kerry is not fighting for our votes and for the presidency, which if he fought for it now, he would have it. There is too much documented evidence that the election was stolen in Ohio. And even if it could never be proved or won because of the power of the repubs now, we would know we had done everything on earth that could be done to save our country.

Why should we have to sit every day and wait and hope and take his words and twist and turn them scraping around looking for the faintest sign that he is who we thought he was? Why?

If he was going to fight, he would have by now. By repeating the mantra about not overturning the election over and over he is sealing his fate as someone who gave up on democracy, on us, on a chance for America, on the truth, on justice. I witness the people here who gave their hearts and souls to help defeat *, and when we have taken it as far as we can, when we need him and the democratic party to pick up the ball and run, what do they do? Give it to the other side, the dark side, shrug their shoulders and ho hum off the field, thinking (falsely) better luck next time. They had an army working for them . . . if they don't fight this out they will never have the chance again because people like me are not going to forgive and forget this.

Et tu Brute?

[woodsprite]

73. Don't lose faith ...

Someone mentioned checking out Kerry's horoscope. Well, here's a link. Looks good and may give us a needed morale boost.

http://www.astrologyzone.com/forecasts/monthly/sagittarius_full.php

I'm trying to breathe deep, say my prayers, and write ALOT of messages to my Rep congressman (Castle) and 2 Dem Senators (Biden and Carper).

[imaginary girl]

77. That's awesome! Thanks! n/t

[ClassWarrior]

83. Wow. Eerie...

NGU.

[jdog]

84. It's just about perfect. n/t

[jojo54]

86. That is wierd

but great for us! Especially when Mercury joins in. I like what it says about 12/26 - taxes, debts and such.

[delphine]

88. Wow, so if my birthday

is December 20th I only have to wait until the 11th to find out I really won the election?

Oh . . . guess not.

Look people, he apparently does NOT think he won and does NOT want to push it and does NOT care if the electors are certified before a recount and is ONLY supporting any of it in order to get the votes counted.

He is NOT willing to come out forcefully against the blatant suppression efforts, which don't require any proof beyond the facts that we know right now. He doesn't have to don a tin foil hat in order to fight this, but he's still not willing.

It's a sad time for us right now.

I'm not sure if he doesn't really want the job that badly or if he wants it so badly that he's still playing it cautious.

Cautious is the ONLY reason why he didn't slam bush by double digits.

Cautious is why a huge portion of his base voters will be too angry to vote for him in 2008.

Cautious means he just doesn't get it.

I can hardly stomach the idea that he won't be prez right now. The only thing keeping me from imploding at everything bush does has been that tiny shred of hope.

Give it up guys. He's done everything but turn up the lights and tell us to go home.

[New Earth]

89. ok, i'll give up, but only cuz you told me to

:eyes:

[ebayfool]

90. "Give it up guys." No thanks, you go right ahead. I'm in for the ...

duration. But, please - don't let that stop you!

[GetTheRightVote]

96. I shook Rev Jackson hand yesterday for moving this into the lime light

He is doing us a great service and I was very happy to meet him and to thank him for continuing the fight for us. They are very serious about getting down to the real issues and getting the electors to not vote or to get our own set of electors to challenge the election with, they are working very hard to get the fraud taken care of and our correct president in the White House, hold on to your faith for they need it. They were so happy to see regular ordinary Americans who are interested in the process, we all need to continue to support them and stay in touch with them. I hope to attend as many hearings as I can, it is a great experience and I wish you all could be there and be a part of the saving of our democracy. I have been inspired by them, we must march to show the country what they fight for is all to real, they need us to rally behind them in a physical as well as spiritual manner. Join me next time in attending them.

[sabra]

97. I would love to join next time...

thanks for the post!

[fasttense]

98. There seems to be two trains on this track

One. Kerry should have come out with guns blazing right after the election. Get the people out in the streets to back him and ride the tide to the White House. Just like in Ukraine.

The problem with this is when Gore pointed out the rigging, very few people went out on the streets. We stood by and watched as the Supremes appointed B*sh and we did nothing.

Two. Kerry is quietly working behind the scenes and will ride a grass roots effort to the White House.

The problem with this is some people believe it's too late. B*shites are entrenched and busily preparing their defenses. In the mean time those who know the election was rigged are disheartened and falling back.

The first train of thought has history to refute it. Nothing happened in 2000 when Gore fought back so perhaps that's not such a good idea.

The second train of thought has yet to be tested.