The difference betweent the US and the Ukraine

[Eric J in MN]

A woman who called Pacifica Radio today made this point:

In the Ukraine, the Exit Polls were kept separate from the machine-count, and so everyone knew the election was a fraud.

In the US, Mitofsky originally provided accurate Exit Poll numbers, and these showed Kerry winning.

Starting at 4 PM, Mitofsky deceptively mixed the machine-count with the Exit Poll results, while still calling it an "Exit Poll."

This gave the false impression that Bush had suddenly taken the lead in the Exit Polls.

----

There should be a Code of Ethics for pollsters which prevents them from mixing in the machine-count and calling it an Exit Poll, as Mitofsky did.

[Pacifist Patriot]

1. Another difference.

Ukrainians took to the streets, Americans took to the barcalounger.

But yes, I agree. There should be standards for exit poll data, tabulation and reporting.

[ClassWarrior]

4. Americans didn't have the assistance of a responsible media.

I would tend to blame the Corporate Media Whores, and not the American people. Which one would you blame?

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

6. You know, the American people tend to do the right thing when...

...they have good information. And this is exactly what the Radical RW wants -- they want us blaming our potential supporters in the populace, and not the corporatists and Media Whores who are really the guilty parties.

NGU.

[Pacifist Patriot]

11. Don't get me wrong. I blame the media and the corporations

for encouraging the ignorance, whether passive or active. However, the fact remains. We do not have rioting in the streets, do we?

[rdmccur]

17. We're too comfortable,

Don't want to rock the boat.
Also there's the phenomena of 'cognitive dissonance'
when so many people become attached to 'their' leader
(as occurs in cults).

[LisaL]

7. Another difference-they are organized, and their leader wants

them to protest and get out on the street. Our leader told us to follow Bush and play nice.

[ClassWarrior]

15. That's a bald-faced lie. He said count every vote. Helloooo???...

NGU.

[LisaL]

21. No lie.

Ukrainian opposition leader demanded a whole new election. He did not concede even though vote counts shows him to be behind.
Kerry conceded and told us we should follow Bush.:spank:

[sam sarrha]

2. fat butts and no guts

[sportndandy]

3. Not so fast

An alternate scenario is that the election results in the Ukraine are valid; it is the exit polls that are tainted because of undue western influence (i.e. u.s. intelligence tampering) and the subsequent street demonstrations are being orchestrated from the west as well. How do you explain the level of organization that the demonstrations have? They have rock bands and lazer shows; is that really spontaneous?
My point is, I don't know what to believe, but I think it is just as likely that the west is trying to steal the Ukraine through the exit poll in the opposite way it was used in this country.
Yummy food for thought.

[LisaL]

8. There is no doubt they are organized.

It's not "spontaneous".
LOL.

[genieroze]

18. Good point

He is pro west.

[MominTN]

5. maybe the exit polling company is in on the fraud

I find it odd that there used to be two exit polling companies until this election. AP made such a point in their annoucement about how good this company was that would be doing the exit polls that it makes me think it was a setup. The media wasn't going to call the election early again or lead us to believe Kerry was winning so the election polling company did it instead, all the time knowing that the actual vote would be counted "differently". Just my opinion.

[Eric J in MN]

9. I'd like a group I trust like "People for the American Way"

or "MoveOn" to do its own Exit Poll in 2006.

I realize that the general public will assume any poll by MoveOn is biased, but I trust MoveOn more than I trust Mitofsky.

I never heard of Mitofsky before, and yet 300 million Americans are supposed to trust him to gauge the election.

[Peace Patriot]

10. Pacifist Patriot! sportndandy!

Hey, Pacifist Patriot! (I like your name!)

But Americans probably took to the "barcalounger" (if that's what they did) because they DIDN'T KNOW what had happened. The TV networks hid the truth from them.

I don't know--maybe they would've drowned in drink anyway--and not protested. But obviously Bush Inc. didn't want to take that chance.

(And it was the networks, I believe, not the polling company, Mitofsky, that polluted the data--at least it appears so. Mitofsky gave them the Exit Poll data. AP gave them the Republican-controlled electronic vote tally--in an arrangement that has an odd smell about it, too. Where Mitofsky is to blame is in not disclosing all the Exit Poll data now. It probably shows a Kerry blowout.)

sportndandy:

I don't doubt Bush Inc.'s complete lack of conscience as to messing with another country's election, but you provide no evidence at all that that was the case in the Ukraine.

Rock bands and light shows is not evidence. (You'd be amazed what students can put together in an hour!)

Why would they fiddle the Exit Polls in the Ukraine, and not do it here? Here, the Exit Polls showed a big Kerry win, all day, until they started polluting the data. I think a better surmise is that they couldn't get Mifosky to tweak the Exit Polls to Bush, and had to resort to Plan B, getting the networks to pollute the data. (Their Election 2004 Fraud Plan shows a lot of this kind of flexibility--if they came up against a paper trail in one part of a state's vote--say in NC, a 30% absentee ballot vote--they stole from the e-votes portion, and made it up in, say, New Mexico.)

Also, clearly, to get 500,000 people into the streets, there had to be a lot of support for the wronged candidate, and anybody that popular couldn't be a friend of the Bush regime. (So why would Bush Inc. do it?)

I'm not at all against speculation and scenario-writing. It can help to figure things out (especially a complex scheme like this stolen election). But on the Exit Polls Nov. 2, it's not just speculating. That's what really happened. It's completely backed up by the facts. Why confuse it with a wholly speculative notion about the Ukraine?

[Pacifist Patriot]

12. I'm not talking about cause, I'm referring to effect.

I agree that ignorance is a HUGE factor. I do hold the corporate-held media responsible for their silence.

[savistocate]

13. This article expands a picture of why the Ukraine

vast majority support their candidate. Before this reading I had not heard or read much of what has aroused them.

This "Dark Power" as all recent govt since Independence has been seen and described, sounds like our last 4 yrs here.

A real difference is their democracy is just beginning to be fought for. Ours is in severe decay. Stolen corrupted almost unrecognizable as democracy. Only like in both facing a great struggle. We have a deep foundation to set against corp take-over.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/103406451.htm

The present US govt being for this candidate almost brings a conclusion or suspicion Yush(sp)must be somehow fake.
It seems more possible it's Putin, seen as an adversary, his candidate would be rejected.

Yush..... has been Prime Minister working broadly to establish more democracy. The man was poisoned by some faction of the status quo-establishment!

[savistocate]

14. Link is not as I posted ??

It is htm at the end not hm..

Very enlightening info..in short form.

It was from Knight Ridder/Washington.

[genieroze]

19. I didn't need the media to tell me the vote was BS. eom

[Democrat Dragon]

16. Americans want the election over and done with

On Novemeber 3rd, I remeber overhearing some people saying stuff like "whew, I'm glad the election is over". I've even spoken to some teachers at school about this issue and they said they were jsut glad it was over. Not to metion when I was wathcing TV, I could already see some Christmas and Thanksgiving commercials. I then watched the local news for awhile. So I put them together and I figured out that the materialistic, corporation-hypnotized, consuming average American would rather worry about the holidays, Scott Peterson, the Neverland Ranch search, black people breaking into their houses, their kids smoking, some girl who had sex with their teacher, what celeberty is dating what celeberty, and someone's new album than about the legitimacy of their election. On the other hand this was a pretty rough campaign and people didn't want another Florida to happen. Eric Blumerich of Bushflash.com metioned on his website that Americans have taken democracy for granted wheras the Ukranians have only had it for 13 years and cherish dearly.

:puke: What has America become? If Martin Luther King were alive today he probably wouldn't recognize this country.:cry:

[genieroze]

20. Our founding fathers are rolling over in their graves. eom

[reality_bites]

22. Not deceptive...

"Starting at 4 PM, Mitofsky deceptively mixed the machine-count with the Exit Poll results, while still calling it an 'Exit Poll.'

That's not deceptive. That's how you conduct an exit poll.

See here: http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2004/11/the_difference_.html

"Once the polls close, NEP gathers actual results for the precincts sampled in the exit polls gradually combines the exit poll results and the actual vote counts into an evolving hybrid of projections and estimates that gradually improves over the course of the evening...

Once the actual results have been counted in the wee hours of election night, NEP re-weights the results of each exit poll so that the vote preference on the exit poll matches the actual count."

The primary purpose of exit polls is not for the media to be able to call the vote early, project a winner, or prove/disprove fraud. If it was, then it wouldn't make sense to conduct exit polls as they are.

The primary purpose for the exit poll is for demographic research and breakdowns of how different groups voted. For this purpose it makes complete sense to recalculate the exit poll based on actual votes.

Mitofsky was doing the job he was paid to do and he did the same way it's always been done. No deception here.

People keep conflating the term "exit poll" with "exit poll raw numbers." They aren't the same thing.