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Griffy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 10:51 PM
Original message
SOMEONE answer this... government question..
This is from a thread in repug blog... Am I wrong, or do they just not know details....

Pug #1
"Because they know it's a joke and can't be bothered trifling with such nonsense? Anyhow, correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think once the electors cast their votes, only Congress has the authority in the matter--no judges, no courts, none of that."

..And the answer came... others agreed...

Pug #2
"Yep, no matter what happens it is all in the hands of the Congress. No court can usurp their Constitutional authority to resolve a dispute in the election should it arise. There is no possible way the Dems can steal this election short of some kind of coup."


I think they are wrong.. If they saw F/911 they would know at least something.. irony? I think we have several options, like if the Ohio Dem electors are reckognized.. due to proven fraud...


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bemis12 Donating Member (594 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's close to true
In that no court will intervene. Once the votes are cast Monday, the only way out is for the US Congress to refuse to accept the votes of Ohio. But they won't do that without PROOF of fraud. Suspicion isn't going to do it.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-04 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. I don't think that is accurate at all. There are two things at play here
one is the constitution and constitutional law. The Republicans often talk about how they like "strict constructionist judges" who do not go beyond the letter of the law. I think this has the potential to blow a lot of people's minds if the letter of the constitutional law is strictly adhered to.

The second is the political will. And that is quite the wild card. If we get out in the streets starting this weekend and start getting coverage and evoke images of democracy thwarted as in Kiev, then it greatly favors us making sure all votes (all votes, not just Democratic votes) WILL be counted. If we continue to be rather meek and passive the political probably will not favor us. Many people in the know including Arnebeck and Madsen have said we can NOT wait for the courts to act but MUST GET OUT AND RALLY NONVIOLENTLY IN THE STREETS NOW.

Arnebeck, Bonifaz and the other lawyers are very smart cookies indeed. Don't let the uniformed Free Republic folk disuade you from having practical hope that WE WILL GET EVERY VOTE COUNTED AND THE ELECTORS WILL BE APPOINTED ACCORDING TO THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE, NOT PARTISAN GAME PLAYING. WE MUST FIGHT FOR IT, BUT WE WILL ACHIEVE IT.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-04 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Here's an example from history: 1960, demonstrating how this would work.
henslee posted this in another thread:

The last time a full state Pres. recount happened was
Kennedy vs. Nixon in 1960. The state was Hawaii.
Kennedy challenged the results and here's how they
resolved the elector deadline vs. recount conflict...
They created a second set of electors in addition to the
first, which had Nixon as victor. The new electors were to
award the votes to whomever won the recount which ended up
being Kennedy -- so it was this second set of electors who went
to D.C on Jan. 12 of 1961.

This 1960 recount did not effect the Pres. results but in 2004,
though a longshot, it just may. Either way, counting all the
votes is a good thing for democracy.
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bemis12 Donating Member (594 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-04 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I'm not sure that we disagree at all
I agree that the State of Ohio can send whichever electors they wish. I also agree that Congress could challenge the slate of electors sent by Ohio.

The Freepers were saying that the Courts couldn't intervene, and with that I agree. It's entirely in the hands of the legislators, both state and national.
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righteous1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-04 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. If I am not mistaken it's the state that would decide to select
2 sets of electors. Being that the electors will be ceded on Monday Dec. 13 the state of Ohio would have to act immediately to do this. Once the electors have been selected, no one but the US Congress can intervene. Have you heard anything about the state doing this?
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read the law first Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-04 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. Yes and No. How's that for a lawyerly answer?
I haven't seen any of their posts (I don't go to repug sites, blech) but what they must be talking about is the so-called "political question" doctrine. Traditionally, out of respect for the separation into three co-equal branches of government, courts have stayed out of how the legislative branch selects itself. You will see this in many "refuse to seat" cases where the courts will say "the legislative branch is the sole arbiter of who will be seated and courts will not be involved." Of course, this has limits in that courts handle election contests all the time on the basis of statutes that the legislative branch has established. Second, this isn't the legislative branch selecting itself, it is the election of the chief officer of the executive branch. So that's one difference.

If you want to read about the political question doctrine, go to Reynolds v. Sims, the SCOTUS case that first got the courts involved in redistricting (up until that case, redistricting had been deemed a political question). The Court spends a lot of time worrying about whether they should follow the doctrine or not.

In the Hawaii case, the recount showed that Kennedy had won, so we're not there yet because the recount hasn't happened yet.

On the other hand, as in Reynolds v. Sims, the Courts decide what the political question doctrine means and whether it applies. In essence, the Courts decide their own jurisdiction unless and until the legislative branch steps in and limits the courts' jurisdiction.

So, if you are in a court which follows the political quesion doctrine closely, it's probably correct to say that a court will not interfere with the elector's votes once they are cast. If you are in a court that doesn't follow the political question doctrine closely, the court will figure out a way to say that they are just interpreting the laws that the legislature established.

No court will reverse an election, however. That would be unprecedented and would carry a high probability of violent disorder and courts are very, very reluctant to go there. The remedy in a contest is a new election not to reverse an election. People sometimes get confused with the distinction that SCOTUS didn't actually "select" *, but rather it stopped the vote count that would have led to the election of President Gore. (We'll get a hundred posts that says that's the same thing, ok, ok, ok, ok).

So, the answer to the original question is simultaneously, "yes, they might be right," "no, they might be wrong" and "it depends."

:shrug:
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-04 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Good answer Readthelaw, but
you should add, "that will be $300 please.
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read the law first Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. LOL! Funny.
I haven't charged only $300 an hour in three years.:toast:

That was a good one.
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ConstitutionGuy Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-04 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
2. 12th Amendment
12th Amendment to the Constitution lays out the electoral process. I don't see anyway a court could intervene after the electors cast their ballots.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-04 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. The electors envelopes need not be opened until the court & congress
determine which elector's envelope's will be opened. It is quite possible that the elector's slate will change between now and January 6th.
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libertypirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-04 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
3. they are speaking in the blind
They are just assuming they are on the right side of this. They may not ever believe these people they hold in such high regard are just lousy crooks. I wouldn't blame them, it's their logical conclusion to the scope of what they know and understand about all this. Their unique perspective, its whack as all get out hey someone’s got to be the fucking loser in the end.


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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-04 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Yes, wishful thinking on their part. nt
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-04 03:14 AM
Response to Original message
8. READ
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