Has anyone discussed that if Kerry wins what that means for us at DU?!

[peabody71]

If Kerry wins it is because of us! We will then have power to influence election legislation etc. He will owe us everything.

[IAMREALITY]

1. Wrong. I'll call ya on that one

If Kerry Wins it is ONLY because more voters voted for him in the first place. He has already won, and it had nothing to do with DU other than those here that voted for him.

Now if we expose the fraud that at this time is putting the LOSER in place to be Inaugurated, well for that, yes we are definitely partially responsible!


I firmly believe at least half of the accomplishments so far are directly DU related!


DU ROCKS

[molly]

2. AMEN!

[lonestarnot]

4. Beware of the bighead syndrom; it's a rightie characteristic.

[IAMREALITY]

5. No Idea What You Are Talking About

Your post made no sense, sorry.

:hi:

[lonestarnot]

8. Well if you don't know what a big head is let me explain.

A big head is one that gets that way from an overgrown ego, who likes to take credit for allllll. Mostly bloviating nonsense.

[peabody71]

12. Spoken like a true Big Head. thanks.

[lonestarnot]

39. Not....spoken with humility....

in warning of the "big head"

[IAMREALITY]

17. Sorry, Still Have No Idea What You Are Talking About

Now Both of your posts make no sense in any context.

Maybe a third? :shrug:

[lonestarnot]

40. no time to waste explain a third time, twice courteous enough.

[malatesta1137]

47. his/her post made perfect sense to me

but you making DU responsible for Kerry's 'victory' is what's preposterous.

First, because there's no victory. Second, because it's infantile to think that a single website would be able to put a President in office, especially someone who moved on and definitely does NOT want to be in the White House in 2005.

[IAMREALITY]

48. Read Again

Never said that at all. I said the voters are responsible for Kerry's victory.

:dunce:

[malatesta1137]

60. yes you did =)

your screen name says it all, you create your own reality (and then recreate it) as many times as necessary, don't you? The neocons in the Bush Organized Crime Family do the same (just kidding) :headbang:

[lonestarnot]

51. Thank you.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

49. Rumsfeld syndrome n/t

[neversaynever]

50. Hmmmm.....

I haven't had time to read all the posts in this thread, but I do think trying to take excessive credit for all this is "unseemly" (when the conyers hearings aired, remember, I made a post s/t to the effect of : this would not have happened without DU, and I meant that).

But there's something about "blowing your own horn" that I find extremely distasteful.

DU was a major catalyst here (cf. recent re-post of the election night discussions on this board, including "screen saved" exit polls).

Yes DU great great job. Yes DU, *you* did it. Yes DU you are *super, you rock, you have worked tirelessly, intelligently, swiftly and effectively.

And you have inspired many others to do the same (which is perhaps the MOST IMPORTANT point).

If I had a dollar for everytime some major "good deed" of mine went unacknowledged, I'd be a multi-billionaire--and I know that I'm not alone on that score.

When you commit random acts of kindness and senseless beauty, it's probably best to just sit back and regard them with a sense of inner satisfaction and awe.

I am in awe of your efforts, I cringe at the attempts to call attention to them--they point to radical changes in mindset that need to occur if we do win this campaign. "Rugged individualism" and "egotism" -- (Laurie Anderson once called it "lookatme, lookatme, lookatme) are part of the problem that got us into the mess we are in.

Anyone who's been paying attention is clearly aware of the tremendous service DU has provided. -- And that should be reflected in the contributions people have made not only to your accounts, but also to your message board.

End of comment.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

14. Gloating and taking excessive credit isn't necessary or honorable

DU will get their just due and hopefully accept it with dignity and class!

[peabody71]

6. Way to be defeatist.

Uh, the election was over in everyones world except ours. We refused to give up and if anything comes from it we deserve tremendous credit. Political capitol is que? Kerry shall be beholden to us. He knows it and we know it. I'm not saying he'll steer the country to the far left or anything. I'm saying that we can push for comprhensive election reform. To deny our power is foolish.

[IAMREALITY]

19. To Think We Would Gain Any Power Is Even More Foolish

Is that why you are fighting for the cause? For attention? To be owed something? Kerry would owe us nothing more than thanks for helping to preserve democracy.

The whole tone of this thread makes me feel a bit ill. Kinda compromises our whole fight if ya ask me, but to each their own opinion.

:hi:

[peabody71]

23. "Kerry owes us nothing"?

You've got to be kidding.

[IAMREALITY]

25. Nope. Not Kidding. n/t

[peabody71]

28. I guess all of this is just for John Kerry.

Here John Kerry take this, potential opportunity we have given you, and do what ever the fuck you want. I don't care I just want to see you win. Fuckin A.

[IAMREALITY]

29. Nope. Try Again

We just want to see Democracy Win.

[peabody71]

30. And Then??

[IAMREALITY]

31. Then We Work To Preserve It n/t

[peabody71]

34. but according to you we have no power to effect the outcome.

How can we work to secure it if our effort have no effect?

[IAMREALITY]

36. Not Sure I See Those Words Posted Anywhere.

Not sure where on Earth where ya pulled that from! :shrug:

[lonestarnot]

52. This better

[havocmom]

3. Means we will have to bust our humps keeping Congress from

hounding him 24/7 like they did Clinton.

Means we would get to have a 5 minute champaign break before going back to the work of defending truth, justice & the American way ;)

Still plenty of weasels* to dig outta their undisclosed hide-y holes!

**apologies to any real weasels out there

[EMunster]

7. Just be grateful if he'd stop this uncomfortable worldwide death spiral...

I'll let you take an ambassadorship.

[peabody71]

10. why thank you.

Are we really having a communication breakdown?
What is politics all about. It's about appeasing who got you there.
Think Evangelicals.

[dmac]

9. Ha. That sounds like a Conservative attitude and

it is part of what is corrupting our system. Yes, play an active part but I expect nothing for my contributions - not my volunteer contributions nor my monetary contributions. As supporters we can only try to keep the issues we care about 'out there' but we can only do that with further volunteering to promote the issue, or $ to fund promotion.

If what you said is true then the Bush administration is completely justified to work against the environment because he is beholden to the businesses that funded him or helped him. Is that really what you want to say?

[dmac]

15. P.S. To reform the system, we must

work within the system and I don't want to start by bringing one of the dirtiest (in my eyes), deadliest problems with the system in - right off the bat. We are not "owed" anything - but our reward would be in having a leader we believed in, one we already know shares most of our values and goals - who, above all, values human life and our mother earth. For me, those would be the big pluses of a turnover - I realize others will have different issues they consider most important. But the point is, should such a wonderful, but highly unlikely thing occur, my job would be 1) rejoice at the victory and feel proud to have contributed to it and then 2) get back to work on the issues that matter most to me - not to influence or expect to influence legislation but to make sure those issues are at least considered by the powers that be. And THAT should be how the system works.

(It is fun to dream about this, isn't it . . . .)

[pleiku52cab]

11. Kerry won't OWE us diddley squat

We are dong this to try to save our country from going fascist. Besides, if John does get in somehow, we'll have to work twice as hard to support him against a repug controlled Congress.

[peabody71]

13. Man alive. You missed the point.

Go argue with a freeper. I am going to work for comprehensive election reform. It ain't happening by itself.

[Why Syzygy]

16. "WINS"?

In what galaxy is your residence?

A. In order to WIN, one needs to aspire to be a WINNER.
B. John Kerry shows no evidence of A.

It hurts. It sux. But, there ya go.

[seito]

41. whatever...n/t

[comradebillyboy]

18. how can kerry win, he already surrendered

confirming the judgment of the voters about his toughness and willingness to fight for whatever it was he purported to stand for

[txindy]

20. I have to disagree with that.

There's more going on here than what we can see or influence. I don't want an admin. that owes anybody anything. When John Kerry and John Edwards win, they'll represent everyone, not just us. They'll owe us nothing, although a hearty handshake would be most welcome! ;)

[peabody71]

26. Oh yeah then proceed to fuck everyhting up in the name of profit etc.

Dude, it's a game. I don't want no fucking handshake.
I don't give a damn about Kerry either. I give a damnn about what he can do for me, my Country, and the World.

[IAMREALITY]

27. Ask NOT What Your Country Can Do For You,

But What YOU Can Do For Your Country.


Not sure I've ever seen a better time for that quote LOL

[seito]

46. Thank You Reality

This is OUR country and it is our solemn duty to protect it.

We ask only that those trusted with leading it, honor their pledge to us.

Nothing more.

[txindy]

57. You've got everything backwards

We've got an admin. now that owes people and subsequently legislates with an eye towards private profit. That's worked out well. :eyes:

Nobody owes us anything, especially John Kerry. Anyone who thinks he does needs to get over himself.

[seshers]

21. I believe you've got it (W)rong...

The bloggers and activists did play a role, bringing light to the issues of voter disenfranchisement through dialog and grass roots efforts. What we must do when/if JFK is rightfully inaugurated is continue to educate the masses about what occurred in 2000 & 2004. That is OUR responsibility as citizens. No one owes us anything for doing the right thing. It is a collective burden that we all share, the fight for truth and fairness in our democratic system.

I would much rather see society as a whole praise our efforts.

Peace

[peabody71]

22. Idealism isn't the point either.

People are in an argumentative mood today.
Why can't anyone just realize that if Kerry were to WIN, as the game is played we need to be prepared to make it known that we were the big players in making it happen. Maybe the problem is that people who feel powerless act like it. I intend to make it clear my concerns and demand that the issue we worked so hard to shine light on become a National main stream issue. This is our first, and probably our last chance to change election systems and arguing about whether or not Kerry should listen to us is rediculous. He will.

[IAMREALITY]

24. "Why can't anyone just realize that if Kerry were to WIN"

Knock Knock, Helloooooo, Knock Knock,

Kerry has already WON.

Not sure about anyone else, but I personally could care less if any of us get credit in the end, as all I am concerned with is whether Justice and Democracy Prevail in the end.

[peabody71]

33. I still insist, you don't get it.

A politician is shaped by those who get him there. Always has been always will be, at least in a 'Democracy'. Let sit here and argue how we have no political capital and it is unimportant whether Kerry acknowleges us and our efforts, why dont we.

[IAMREALITY]

35. It Was Just The Whole They Are Gonna Owe Us Everything! Tone

That realllllly left a bad taste in my mouth. Seems to be the wrong reason to be fighting.

[IndyPriest]

43. It's worth thinking about how "power" is distributed...

in a representative democracy. If we think about power as the ability to get something done, the amazing thing about a democracy is that it opens up this ability to people who've never had it before AND at any given moment its exercise can come from surprising places. The distibution of power suddenly gets complex.

I mean, who would have guessed that a month ago "Clinton Curtis" could come on the scene as someone who has the power to move THE MACHINE? Who knew Arnebeck had any real power? What whistleblower is out there right now sitting on more power than we can imagine? And come Monday morning, some poor judge in Ohio is going to get more power than s/he probably ever wanted.

Who has more power, the one who speaks or the one who listens? Who has more power, the one with a conscience or the one without it? Who has more power in Kerry's world: DU, OBL, THK, someone who gets the right e-mail to him at the right moment? The third-tier staff person who pushes the right memo at the right time?

My point is we all have a share in this, and at any given moment it's impossible to know for sure who's exercise of power is going to count most for the cause. What we DO know for sure is that DU -- especially you guys who have been here over the long haul -- has been working its collective butt off for the cause. And for that, I think, DU does have the right to take a bow.

[stella2cat]

32. this is rather bizarre n/t

[Lefty48197]

37. Cabinet Positions:

I'll nominate myself for secretary of stopping Walmart from taking over America.

[ladjf]

38. Wrong. His campaign people have ignored us all along.

Yet, we would all be thrilled to see the election corrected. (won't happen)

[zann725]

42. AT LEAST an invite to the Inauguration!

n/t :kick:

[Joe Chi Minh]

53. Those of you

who "kept the faith" and fought to silence the "fifth column" of naysayers - trolls and pessimists alike - as well as harrassing the MSM, are likely to have preserved a healthy "climate" for a flipover, because a perception that Democrats on the whole would accept any outcome, however, outrageous, could not have been helpful, either to the non-partisan, "electoral integrity" outfits, or to Kerry's team of lawyers and experts; or propitious as regards any foreseeable hope for democrcay in your country, *as of now*.

Some of you also contributed to a number of important funds for checking the integrity of the voting, and others in DU and elsewhere (notably the statisticians of Berkeley, for example) contributed a high level of much-needed professional expertise.

But let us never lose sight of the fact that Kerry's stategic patience, his "long game" within the limits of the final resolution of this election, (which must be extremely hard for him to maintain) may have been all that stood between the eventual success of those who favour what is, after all, in most of the developed world, East and West, just a normal, routine level of integrity with regard to the election process - and failure. There are still those who vilify him for not going at the neocons like a bull in a china shop.

Now, the evidence of "malfunctions" and voter repression can be seen to be so vast, and so pervasively biased in favour of the neocons' prevailing in the election, that the notion, for instance, that they could be due to inexperience, well-meaning incompetence etc., is, in practical terms (i.e. surreal fantasy scenarios apart), inconceivable. Their perpetrators cannot simply be all, or mostly even, fools and incompetents, although it is certainly arguable that they are, but what is clear *is* that the primacy of the underlying fraudulency of their intentions can no longer be gainsayed by any responsible American. Otherwise, old Sam Irving would surely turn in his grave; and that of course, would be the least of it.

[henslee]

44. SKINNER FOR PRESS SECREATARY. NT

[bleever]

45. Here's what I want, in order of importance:

1. American democracy restored to a system of checks and balances which serves all elements of society, instead of being a stuffed animal shaken in our faces by thugs and bullies.

2. John Kerry as president, because he won the election, and this is his moment in history.

3. The thugs and bullies in jail, or at least tarred by history beyond redemption.

4. John Kerry to look straight into the camera and say, "I Believe".

5. A cabinet appointment to be the secretary of the new Department of Music and Laughter.

But I'll settle for the top three, and still be full of joy.

:7

[RevCheesehead]

54. If I may humbly enter the fray:

I think we are talking here about "grass-roots" effort. It lies directly opposed to the repug corporate sway, along with its ideology that "we know what's best for you - nothing to see here - move along."

And to that grass-roots effort, yes, Kerry owes the people.

I believe that is what is at the heart of Democracy, and is the true power and genius of the Democratic Party. It is a reflection of the will of the people: WE THE PEOPLE of the United States of America.

It's saying we want an end to special interests and corporate manipulation of our country. We want people in Washington to acknowledge that THEY WORK FOR US, not lobbyists and powerful elite.

Does that mean that Kerry "owes ME" anything? Only inasmuch as I am part of the collective whole. DU is a small microcosm of what grass-roots efforts are all about. And to that end, we ALL owe something.

Sheesh - I'm ready for a beer, and it's only 1 pm!

:toast:

[Why Syzygy]

62. Does anyone recall

that JK has already announced plans to go to Ir#@ in JANUARY?

Does that sound like someone who intends to take an oath of office?

No clue WHY or WHERE he will go in Ir#@ .. oh well.

Suffrage. Mean anything?

[politicasista]

55. How can we be sure he may or may not win?

Please don't flag me for this, but what is the significance of Monday? I am not into politics and I am not a lawyer, but what's the deal?

[New Earth]

56. Monday Cliff Arnebeck files to contest the election

And according to him, they have evidence that there was fraud in the vote counting, giving about 60,000 Kerry votes to Bush. Also, the recounts will begin next week (Tuesday or Wednesday, i forget)

[dmac]

58. I keep seeing references to this.

if he has this evidence does this mean it will actually presented on Monday, with the contest?

[IndyPriest]

59. Yes, the evidence (perhaps not all of it) is...

presented to the judge who then rules on whether it is substantial enough to allow the suit to go foward.

[corbett]

61. He'll Need Our Help

I'm torn on the issue of whether he will owe us anything once he is inaugurated. There is merit on both sides of the argument. What won't be open for debate, though, will be the fact that he'll need our help. He'll face strong opposition from the far-right Republicans on Capitol Hill. As we've learned under Dubya, a President has LOTS of power but he will need the continued support of the grass roots to pass some of his better legislative ideas like rejoining Kyoto and amending NAFTA to include environmental, human rights and worker protections.

[Imagevision]

63. If Kerry wins?..we should be greatful...then celebrate bigtime!