PARTY AFFILIATION POLL, PART 2: If I were to register today

[Chasing Dreams]

How is the Democratic Party holding up in the wake of Election Fraud 2004? In an attempt to begin to answer this question, this two-part poll will track overall party affiliation and migration since November 2.

Part 2: If I were to register to vote today, I would choose to be a

[skids]

1. green, but not for the reasons stated.

I'm really an independent. But I consider my registration status to be another way of long-term ongoing voting. So I give it to the party that I think is doing the best job at any given time.

[jamboi]

29. Been a Green for a while. Voted 4 Nader in 2 previous pres. races. n/t

[Chasing Dreams]

31. Just curious, what is driving the Greens' leadership on the fraud front?

All of you are doing a great job, a job that should be led by Kerry, Edwards, and the Democratic Party. You are risking your lives and careers for someone you didn't vote for. I have a pretty good idea why, but I'd like the DU community to hear it from you. Thanks!

[skids]

42. I can't speak for the Greens.

Other than being registered as one I'm not very active in the party. I don't fully support their platform, especially now that they are adding gun control, I have major doubts about the fact that some of their state chapters are run by complete communist nutjobs, and personal knowlege of how the NY chapter plays dirty tricks to beat up on smaller single-issue parties so they don't have to share the ticket sours me greatly. (Which strikes me as a raving case of Democrat envy, given that's a behavior I usually attribute to Dems.)

On the other hand, I like having them on the rolls here in MA. I haven't heard any disturbing stories about their MA leadership other than the fact that a few of the mailings I get feel a bit granola to the touch. Of the four official parties here, they are closest to my core philosophies, and some of the problems, like the nutjobs, will go away if and when the party gets a larger infusion of everyday citizens voting in their primaries and meetings.

To answer your question, though, aside from the fact that Greens can be lumped in with Dean supporters in the sense that they want the Dems to have more backbone, there are electoral system issues that all 3rd parties face, and this is a great way to light a fire under the issue, and get their base more involved in the nuts and bolts of politics.

Not only that, but if this whole thing pans out, I bet people will be a little happier that there were 3rd party candidates on the ballot (heck even I was yelling at Nader, but have since changed my tune 180 degrees on that after he helped in NH.)

So, as a Democrat, you tell me: why is it now 2004 and we don't have ranked-order voting on a local level almost anywhere yet, even here in MA where it would help the Dems in a few tight congressional seats and the dems have virtually complete control?

Why do Greens have to face the choice of throwing their vote symbolically towards a Green candidate (or just voting green to try to keep the party on the ticket) and thereby decreasing the probability that our "second choice" will defeat our last choice. Ok, well, maybe Larouche would be our very last choice, but you get the drift.

Why do the Dems so completely fear the idea of having a viable liberal third party, to the extent that they would spend their time yelling at them to get off the ballot, rather than resolve themselves to the fact that having a few Green congress seats that are going to vote along dem lines 95% of the time is better than losing the seat five towns over to a Republican?

(Besides, look at the core Green tenets... I think they'd be pretty big hypocrits not to tackle a corrupt election system.)

[Chasing Dreams]

50. You make some very good points.

On ranked order voting: I have no idea why Democrats can't/don't get behind ranked order voting, but they should. It is something that will help progressives. However, I don't trust the machines to do this.

On a viable third party: That is taking care of itself now because of the lack of leadership now by Kerry, Edwards, and most other national Democrats. Compare the results of this two-part poll so far, and you'll see what I mean.

[jamboi]

52. Can't speak for all, but for me I have this crazy idea that I live in a

Jeffersonian constitutional democracy and I believe in the rule of law. I have to be frank and say I've been shaken deeply from my radical moderatism by my new-found discovery of just how deeply corrupted the system is and that maybe America is dominated by NeoCon craziness in a shocking way that is contravening the constitution in a broad and brazen way. I have always been willing to listen to the conspiracy theorists and thought that here are there around the edges they were probably right. But really I didn't believe that in the main we had wholesale neoconservatism/oligopolism/cryptofascism/corporatism/"theocratism"/fanatacism that was running the show corruptly in the background. This election fraud is so broad and brazen IMO that I've been bolted upright from my previous trusting slumber. I believe what we are seeing here is a constitutional crisis of epic proportions. (Note that I would react the same way if the crisis were coming from the left and in that case I'd be participating similarly over on the conservative web sites. Its the pure anti-constitutional power grab that has me up in arms). Zbignew Brezinski just called these people "fanatics" on Wolf Blitzer's Late Edition. Apt term.

The other thing that might help to explain the Greens leadership of the insurgency is that we have been trained by Ralph Nader and others to distrust the motives of both major parties and to not look to them for all polital salvation but to pull ourselves up by our own grassroots, commonsense populism. We were MoveOn before there was a MoveOn and appearently we're still more true to the principals espoused by MoveOn than they themselves are. I'd say the same about Dean and his Democracy for America. Progressive Democratic Alliance seems to be thinking somewhat more independently and shows more hope for Dems at least at this stage. IMO. MoveOn and DfA could turn around at any time and jump to the head of the line and I would not complain at all. Positive leadership wherever it comes from is fine by me. I suspect other Greens feel similarly.

[Pirate Smile]

2. I would pick Dem but neither of those options fit.

[Old and In the Way]

6. Me.

Democrat who knows the Party is broken and needs serious fixin'. Is there a Doctor in the house?

[Pirate Smile]

10. I'd pick that option.

[jhgatiss]

3. How about Republican...

because if they think you're one of them they won't try to cage you or bump you off the rolls?

[Chasing Dreams]

5. Definitely an alternative to going to Canada!

[Old and In the Way]

8. Actually, I think lots of Republicans got screwed 11/2.

I'll bet a registered Republican became an automatic vote for Bush....whether they wanted it or not. Stealing votes of registered Republicans was the easy part of the theft.

[Chasing Dreams]

9. Now that is interesting. I wonder if there is evidence to support

that hypothesis. Have you seen this elsewhere?

[Old and In the Way]

17. Only my personal anecdotal evidence.

I know a dozen or so people that are pretty reliable Republicans...3 told me they voted Kerry. Bush won the local vote by 150 votes out of 1800 ballots cast. That was substantially less than in 2000. This is a very rural Republican town in Northern Maine.

I'm not saying my little universe is representitive, but before the election there were hundreds of posts here of people who noted Republicans intending to vote for Kerry. I have no reason to doubt their intent, given the insanity and incompetence of this administration...but if I was going to fix the actual results, I'd first start with registered Republican numbers and build from that.

[Chasing Dreams]

30. I believe you are right because here in Oregon,

Kerry's 53-47 margin was the largest increase for the Dem candidate relative to the 2000 election.

Behind these numbers, I don't know a single Democrat (out of dozens in personal/work circles) that really changed their voting behavior this time, except for some of the 2000 Nader voters who went for Kerry. I too know a few Republicans who changed their votes from Bush in 2000 to Kerry this year. I think these and other Republicans led to the wider victory--the largest gain for the Dems in any state.

And with voting by mail in Oregon it is impossible to hack the voting machines with the same effect (80% were counted by election eve).

[Wabbajack]

46. Bush got a slightly higher

% of the vote in OR this time than in 2000. Kerry just picked up[ the green vote which was large in 2000.

[Cobalt Violet]

4. We have unenrolled in my state.

I'm going that way if this party keeps it head in the sand about the importance of the election fraud issue.

I never thought I would be a one issue voter.

[lizzieforkerry]

7. Democrat

I refuse to leave MY party. I will fight to restore it to reflect my views and to be there for my children. We need to stand up and demand that they listen to us and fight for real family values.

[Pirate Smile]

11. I hate the run away crap instead of standing up and fighting.

Don't move to Canada, stand up and fight for the USA.

Don't abandon the Democratic Party, stand up and fight for what you think the party needs to do.

[Chasing Dreams]

13. The Canada comment was an attempt at humor, and it is

the Democratic Party that is doing the abandoning here.

I agree about standing up and fighting for the USA, but it is not at all clear that in the long-run the Democratic Party can lead the fight, particularly if its leaders aren't fighters.

Indeed, there are some progressives that believe the best hope for our future is the formation of a new party name with new leaders, comprised of Democrats, Greens, and Moderate Republicans.

[Pirate Smile]

20. Oh, I wasn't talking about your Canada joke. Some people are

really serious about it although I don't really know how many. I think we need the Canadians to move down here.

I think it is easier to reform the party from within than to create a new one. I want the Democratic party to include all the people you mention - Dems, Greens, Moderate Republicans.

I'm just not to the point of kicking it to the curb although I certainly understand people's frustration.

[Indiana_Dem]

22. I think that is an EXCELLENT idea.

I'm Democratic party at heart but the party is moving away from what it was as I'm sure many Republicans feel their party is doing as well. My 96yo grandpa told me of the farmers in SD and ND who were instrumental in forming the Populist party years ago because they were mad about the high prices of transport the railroads were charging to ship their food. It can be done. Parties have changed names before and redeveloped their ideas. I think the time is coming when we might have to do it. I definitely know of many people who are disenfranchised about both parties, my husband included. Democrats, Greens and moderate Republicans almost have the same values and principles as far as I've seen. It would bring them together and something to believe in again. This would truly shake up the Republican right.

[ewulf]

12. I want to Vote Democrat,

But neither of the options really work for me.

We won the election, but it was stolen from us. It pisses me off, and I'm not entirely sure that the Democratic strategy of publicly ignoring it was really the right move.

At the same time, I love the Democratic party and It will take a lot more than that to make me leave it. I'm not in a position to fear for my job or may family, I have no (paid) job, no wife, no children, at this point (If things got to a point where they would kick me out of CU Berkeley for being pissed off about the state of affairs in this country, it would definitely be time for me to leave for Europe and never come back).

I love the Democratic party because of its history and its potential. Its the party that brought us great presidents like Franklin Delano Roosevelt, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, and William Jefferson Clinton, and it almost brought (and still might bring) us John Forbes Kerry. Cobb is a good man, I agree with many of his policies and I think the world is better for having him in politics, the same for Badnerik (some of the anti-tax, corporate policies of the Libertarians are not my favorite, but a fully libertarian government would be a hell of a lot better than the neofascist one we have now), and to a lesser extent Nader. Still, I'm not sure that these men have the kind of understanding for compromise, and the overarching vision of a successful, powerful, and progressive America that has been put forth by the democrats. Hopefully, the Dems will soon embrace the voting reform policies long championed by the Greens (instant run off, etc.) as part of the campaign for free, open and fair elections in this country; if that happens, and they keep running anti-death penalty candidates like Kerry, I'll have no complaints.

In short, I love the party, I think we really won, and I want to vote that choice in this poll.

Thanks:

[Chasing Dreams]

14. Done.

Although I am a wavering Democrat, I am a definitely a democrat.

[New Earth]

15. Ironically

As much as I love John Kerry, I would actually consider myself somewhere in between Green and Libertarian. At times I find things in common with Democrats, but they are still not liberal enough for me.

I guess, I am a Democratic GLIB.

[Chasing Dreams]

18. The political spectrum is indeed a big circle

and you are probably not alone in between Green and Libertarian.

Question: do you think there is a natural alliance between Greens and Hunters/some guns rights advocates, both of whom want a VERY healthy environment (for albeit different reasons)?

[New Earth]

21. i don't know

my beliefs are so all over the place.....i am for the environment, i support gun rights with SOME control - not too hot on hunting for sport, but not overwhelmingly against it - i support legalization of marijuana - support gay MARRIAGE (not just civil unions) - personally wouldn't have an abortion myself, but believe that it's an individual's right to choose depending on circumstances - yet at the same time, as far as i have learned - i think i might be more 'republican' on fiscal/financial matters than democrat or liberal.....and i'm against war unless it's directly provoked.

does that sound like a cross between Green and Libertarian or what?

[Indiana_Dem]

24. I can relate to your views. I feel the same way.

I guess I'm a Democrat-GL. Haha!

[Chasing Dreams]

27. You are not alone. Indeed, you sound like

most educated progressives I know. Willing to listen, learn, compromise, and stand up when it really matters. You've got my vote, whatever party you register for. :toast:

[New Earth]

34. awwww

thanks :)

[magellan]

16. Independent

Always was, always will be. NO ONE takes my vote for granted.

[AndrewClarke]

49. Me, too

I'm very liberal, but I vote for candidates from different parties. At the local level, party affiliation is not really important; what do I care how the drain commissioner feels about abortion?

This year, I voted for Democrats, Republicans, and Greens.

[Wiley50]

19. Trash DLC= Dem with DLC=Other

Did I make myself plain enough?

[troubleinwinter]

23. You didn't give option for "other"

I am registered as "Decline to state". If primaries weren't already a dead dog by the time Calif. votes, I might consider changing my registration to Dem., so as to have a say in the matter.

[Chasing Dreams]

25. Done. Now you can vote.

[troubleinwinter]

26. Way cool! Thanks!

[Chasing Dreams]

28. No problem.

The right to vote is sacrosanct and protected regardless of party affiliation.:)

[Crunchy Frog]

32. Why not just give the choices

and let people state their own reasons? Not everyone fits into your set of stereotyped pigeonholes.

[Chasing Dreams]

33. Crunchy, I don't know about you but the last 6 weeks have been

tough on me. I see a Democratic Party adrift, with our most prominent leaders apparently on the sidelines. I think their strategy, if they have one, is wrong.

But mostly I am having some fun here. And people can state their own reasons in replies. What's wrong with that?

[Crunchy Frog]

36. I'm seeing about the same thing you are

with respect to the Democratic party, only I've been aware of it for a number of years now. The past year and a half has been tough on me and I guess I'm in a bit of a pissy mood. Sorry, didn't mean to interfere with your fun.

I guess I just get tired of seeing people's positions getting reduced to simplistic pigeonholes and I was having a knee jerk reaction.

For what it's worth, I'm toying with the idea of switching to the Green party, but not for the reasons stated in the poll.

[Chasing Dreams]

37. For what its worth, I too

am toying with switching to the Green Party, mostly because I can't tell anymore what the Democratic Party STANDS for and we have to get environmental issues to the forefront of the political debate. My conversion is many years in the making too.

At this point I truly believe that the Dems days are numbered, and that a new progressive party will rise from its ashes. The Greens are going to lead the way.

[New Earth]

38. from an 'independent' standpoint

The Democrats are not staying true to their views. They seem to be playing 'puppet' or 'pet' to the Republicans. They, as a whole, have literally become a joke. When a party loses an election (assuming they really lost), they should think about how to FURTHER spread their agenda, not make it match more closely to the other side.

[BlueCentrist]

58. "Democratic Party adrift"

Hmmm. I don't fit into any of those catagories you outlined.

[Red State Blues]

35. Green

I hope that:

we prove fraud

we have a massive discrediting of the Republicans, the media and the religeous wing-nuts

we put Kerry in the WH

we start to figure out what was wrong with the message that allowed Bush to get over 20% of the vote

we examine the shameful way that the Dem's treated Nader this go round

[latteromden]

39. On the Nader comment, you are

exactly right. LORD. The motivation behind keeping Nader off the ballot was nothing but political. Democrats wanted to silence any voices other than themselves. Just let the guy on the ballot and get over it; you can't "steal" votes, you have to RIGHTFULLY EARN THEM.

[Krocksice]

40. Yeah, no shit

and he and his camp are fighting just as hard for recounts as anyone else.

[Red State Blues]

41. Thank you.

Yes, attacking the man and not his ideas was offensive and I'm sure turned people off. Once the consortium recount was done (really before) no Democrat should have allowed the "Nader cost Gore the 2000 election" to stand.

[sandnsea]

43. AND

You have to RIGHTFULLY EARN a place on the ballot. Nader thought he could cheat his way through, too bad for him. Funny how it's okay for Nader to commit fraud to get on the ballot and Democrats aren't supposed to call him on it. Just give him a pass because it's... SAINT RALPH!!!! :eyes:

[latteromden]

44. Why did he have to go through so many hurdles to GET on the ballot?

Because Democrats didn't want him there. Shouldn't it be a right for any person who wants to run for president to be able to... run for president? Shouldn't this be something we ENCOURAGE?

[sandnsea]

45. What hurdles?

In Oregon, he had to get the signatures as required by law. He cheated. He didn't get on the ballot. Isn't a clean and legal election process what we're fighting for? Why doesn't Ralph have to adhere to the law?

[latteromden]

47. Because it's nearly impossible

to adhere to the law, when you need to get numbers like 75K signatures in Texas and 40K signatures in Alabama, and spend obscene amounts of money, just so voters can vote for a candidate they would like to vote for. It's ridiculous, it's discriminatory towards third parties, and it's anything but "clean."

[sandnsea]

57. 1,000 in Oregon

At one time. That's all he had to do to get on the ballot and he couldn't manage it. After that, he needed 15,000 signatures by August. He didn't make it and falsified numerous signatures trying. Requiring signatures applies to more than Ralph Nader and more than Presidential elections, it's also the law for initiatives and lower candidates. It's there to keep ballots manageable and actually to make sure people don't just put their name on a ballot and then buy the election. Ralph has to follow the law, just like everybody else.

[Red State Blues]

48. BS

" Nader thought he could cheat his way through,"

Nader!, personally, cheat?! Next you'll probably try to tell me something about how the least egotistical political public figure I've ever known did this all for his "ego".

Really,

Nader isn't an egomaniac (or a cheater)

Kerry isn't a "flip-flopper" (neither was Carter)

Gore wasn't a liar (for a politician)

Bush I wasn't a wimp

B* isn't an idiot

This crap doesn't help.

[jamboi]

53. Hear, hear. n/t

[sportndandy]

51. At least they won't throw away my vote

If I register republican. And no offense intended, but its just a better class of hors-douvre at the meetings.

[skids]

54. kick. and groping aorund down here for part 1 n/t

[IAMREALITY]

55. Always Independant

REALITY cannot take sides, it can only decipher what is true and just.

Course, pretty obvious right now which side that ideal leans to hehe.

[Proud liberal Kat]

56. I voted other

I was an independent and I will remain an independent not because my heart is broken or this election changed me. I will vote for who best represents my interests, granted that is usually the Democrats, but sometimes not and whoo knows down the road. I am not a "member" of any party I am a freelancing citizen.
Kathy

[crispini]

59. Other- We don't register by party in my state.

And IMO that's a GOOD thing. "They" can't track you if they don't know who you are.

[skids]

60. kick n/t

[meganmonkey]

61. Independent, but for totally different reasons than the one liste

I registered as an independent 12 years ago when I was 18. I have voted for a couple different parties in presidential elections. This was actually my first time voting for a Democrat for president. Frankly, considering how irresponsible the national Dems have been this time around, I don't know that I'll ever vote Dem again. But rest assured, my heart isn't broken. I never had my heart in the party. (I DID have my heart in getting Bush out.)