Do you people think this is about getting Kerry into the White House?

[WilliamPitt]

It isn't. That is not going to happen. If the God of the Righteous swoops down from Heaven and chars all the Ohio Electors to ash on January 6th, the state and federal Legislatures will swing into action and the deal will go down. Read Bush v. Gore:

"The individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for electors for the President of the United States unless and until the state legislature chooses a statewide election as the means to implement its power to appoint members of the Electoral College. U.S. Const., Art. II, §1. This is the source for the statement in McPherson v. Blacker, 146 U.S. 1, 35 (1892), that the State legislature’s power to select the manner for appointing electors is plenary; it may, if it so chooses, select the electors itself, which indeed was the manner used by State legislatures in several States for many years after the Framing of our Constitution."

http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-949.ZPC.html

The people do not choose the Electors. The Legislatures do. John Kerry is not going to be sworn in on Inauguration day unless someone goes on a kill-crazy rampage and slaughters enough important officials that the line of succession terminates at the office of the junior Senator from Massachusetts. (Note to Ashcroft: I am not advocating violence. Duh.)

This is about exposing deep and fundamental problems with the way we elect people inn this country. Election fraud and voter disenfranchisement are not new in our history, but have been as much a part of the process as campaign buttons and baby-kissing. The fact that the electorate's voting habits are becoming more clearly drawn, and the fact that so many were watching like hawks after Florida in 2000, means that the standard-issue fraud which has always existed now has a bright light shining upon it, and means the new kinds of fraud involving electronic machines and computer tabulators are likewise suffering intense scrutiny. In this moment, that bright light means the problems, both new and old, can be and must be addressed, repaired, and purged from our democratic process.

I have deep respect for Bonifaz and Arnebeck, and if Conyers fights the seating of the Ohio Electors, so much the better. But it will take a goddam miracle to overturn the 2004 election, and if you haven't faced up to that, now is the time.

If these words disappoint you, buck up, because you're in the most important fight of your life. Just because Kerry isn't moving into 1600 Pennsylvania does not mean this is a worthless fight. Far from it. Exposing the ugly, unfair and irresponsible way we run elections in this country is about the past (the history of disenfranchisement), the present (machines that cannot be trusted), and the future (the very viability of participatory democracy).

I, for one, am down for that fight. These hearings, these lawsuits, all of it, must be bent towards one goal: Cleaning up the process to make it work for everyone.

Oh, PS, if I am wrong about Kerry getting in, the champagne is on me.

[liberal43110]

1. Exactly

I have been expressing this point here continuously and to my friends (democrats, of course) who think it is smarter to move on than to turn this shameful moment in American history into an opportunity to improve our entire election system. This isn't about a candidate; it's about a principle.

--Nancy R. Pitts

[NMDemDist2]

22. is this Will's mom???? welcome to DU there Lady!

you done good with that kid :)

welcome :hi:

[WilliamPitt]

23. No, my mom posts here as Raven

:)

[NMDemDist2]

27. oooops! Thanks Will, and welcome to DU anyway Liberal 43110 n/t

[Higans]

140. The real issue Here:

Is E-Voting ME-Voting?

I can't figure it out can you?

How exactly do you Visually inspect a vapor vote? Do they even count at all???????? if so, Please prove it..... We are sorry, but We the People Don't believe you any more. You have lied to us once to often.

[mmonk]

172. That's it

I don't trust it anymore and that is the point. Too many lies to just accept these machines.

[liberal43110]

212. No Relation

Nope, no relation to the excellent writer Will Pitt. ;-)

[sarahlee]

Exactly!

"This isn't about a candidate; it's about a principle."

Thanks! (to you and Will)

[eowyn_of_rohan]

98. In my mind the immediate issue is to expose and prove the fraud

...And if that can be done in time, John Kerry might be the one inagurated next month, but I am not holding any illusions as to how difficult that will be. After we take care of this, that is, do whatever we can about it, I will have to move on to the next issues, including election reform.

[jamboi]

108. As far as the outside of DU world is concerned I totally agree w/ Pitt.

And that is going to be my public stance. Personally though I'll fight for the slim chance that the constitution will actually be followed even in the short run, that the votes will be fully counted and JK will be inaugurated. Could still happen. At very least though we'll give Bush a big black eye which will cripple his move to the right. And then we'll work on impeachment.

[jamboi]

126. But that doesn't change fact that legally this certainly isn't over yet &

and among us I'll continue to fight for Kerry inauguration.

[Truman01]

2. I completely agree.....

Of course saying so around here gets you labelled as a wet blanket and a kill joy.

TC

[Catherine Vincent]

6. I think the only way you get labeled that here is when you tell

everyone to move on and ignore investigating the fraud that took place. That's a big difference. We had plenty of those here.

[Truman01]

12. I have never told anyone not to investgate....

I am a stickler on facts and I don't like people throwing the law around, I have a bad habit of actually pointing out when people make obtuse claims about the law. I don't mind.

TC

[whalerider55]

29. oh?

when i posted my belief that Kerry was not the overall issue here, and that we needed to organize around enfranchisement as the issue, and that dems should be the loudest voices in the pack, the next post was something along the lines of
"wow- why are all the naysayers crawling out of the woodwork all of a sudden?"

and a similar post about not basing all our hope on Kerry, and feeling that he didn't have a plan and whether he did didn't matter becuase without addressing the constittutional crisi of enfranchisement 2006 didn't matter, i was accused of "tomping on people's hopes and dreams"

maybe we've been hanging on different threads, or maybe i have a particularly abrasive way of putting things, but I've had these ideas supported and bruned as well.

in the end, as long as the mods let them stay posted, it's fine with me.

whalerider55

[Wordie]

31. Not entirely. I think there are a few that will label questions that raise

issues that they would rather avoid (like how the Arnebeck suit may not do a darn thing to advance the possibility of a Kerry presidency), as bad and wrong and encourage others to ignore such questions as well as the questioners.

Or, there are those that get pissy if you question data and the way it was derived. And I mean questions asked NOT as a way of questioning the entire voting problems issue, I might add, but as a way of making sure that the material that DUers present is vetted and accurate. I, for one, frequently take material I find here on DU and post it elsewhere, on other boards, hoping to disseminate the ideas as a way of getting more people involved. In some of the places I post, I get bashed for just posting election material at ALL (haven't "moved on", etc.). So, if I can't rely on the accuracy of the information here, how can I continue do that? That's why I ask lots of questions. It makes it rough then, to get bashed both in those other boards AND here!

I really wish it wasn't this way. Seems to me that this is divisive.

[Catherine Vincent]

3. That is what I am hoping too. Uncover the fraud so that all Americans

can be proud to cast their vote in future elections. And if Bush's sorry ass is somewhat delegitimized (again) in the process, then so be it!

[saracat]

4. Sorry Will, I don't agree.

It may be you are right and Kerry won't be going into the WH , but without an overturn of this election , there is little hope of election reform. The repugs control everything and it isn't to their advantage to reform anything. It is thanks to them that the paper trails on the electronic machines were blocked! Kerry and election reform are interlocked. I am not sure that you can have one without the other.

[LSparkle]

30. I agree

After 2000, what did we get? The HAVA -- that pushed for BBV, systems owned by Repugs. Any hope of national election standards with reliable technology, good oversight, etc. will only happen if we have some power to introduce legislation and to get something done. Until then, we're stuck using THEIR machines and THEIR tabulators that will give us THEIR results.

[zann725]

83. I agree too!

Fate often puts between where we 'are' and what we 'want'...a seemingly insurmountable obstacle. In fiction it makes a good character arc...with the 'larger' obstacle creating the 'larger' hero.

I feel that more than most who have run for President, John Kerry felt certain it was his destiny almost his entire life. I heard an interview with Chris Matthews before the election in which he said he remembers meeting with Kerry in a hallway during the Primaries, and Kerry pulled Chris aside and kept emphatically repeating, "I WILL be President. You don't understand, I will." Chris said he convinced him. But between Kerry, and that overwhelming desire to be President, Fate has put the seemingly unsurmountable obstacle of wide-spread Election Fraud. While it might seem unfair, Fate chose EXACTLY the best person to overcome this obstacle...a "fighter" like Kerry with a tireless Prosecutorial background...who's already faced many of the same adversaries he's facing now in his earlier BCCI and Iran-Contra Hearings.

He (and all of us) can walk away from this fight, but Kerry IS the best-equipped to handle this fight (along with the energies and expertise of Arnebeck & Bonifaz). If we don't fight it now...if we don't "stand our ground" and "not back down"...we will NEVER win. They will just roll over us more in the next election, and next...to a point where we will no longer have elections one day.

It IS over...IF we walk away now. But I do NOT believe it is over yet. Besides, I've NOT yet heard the 'fat lady' sing. Have you?

[Peace Patriot]

116. Not so...

...the states and the counties still control election procedures and rules. A well-focused, local, grass roots campaign in each jurisdiction, to achieve, a) a paper trail for every vote, and b) open source code--is what's needed. We can do it!

As for Mr. Pitts' cold shower--it's always good to know what the odds are. He's right that they are not good. HOWEVER, people need to know WHO REALLY WON, and that will be lost if WE don't make the point over and over again, in every way possible, and with every kind of challenge.

And...

...what were the odds of Nelson Mandela ever getting out of prison--or seeing the end of Apartheid?

Odds, smodds. You've got to go for the BEST OUTCOME, always!

[bloom]

186. "Odds, smodds. You've got to go for the BEST OUTCOME, always!"

yes.



I'm afraid that if this cannot be overturned (in courts) because of fraud - we might as well forget it. How could we improve future results without a (violent) revolution. And I'm not sure we could even convince enough people of the necessity of that the way the media is.

When we are in such a military state that a majority of people see what a mess it is - it may be too late.


how is that for a cold shower, eh?

[Eye_on_prize]

164. yes, Repugs R good at staging 'window-dressing reforms' that *appear* to

address a legitimate issue, while at same time unleashing 1000 deceitful devils in the details to advance their agenda of greed and corruption.

[elizm]

48. And I think...

If Kerry would just come out in a big way on this we could get MSM to cover it and maybe there would be a chance to get something done about our voting process... and the future of Democracy in America. If Kerry thinks laying low and working in the background is the best approach for 'etting himself elected in 2008'...then there truly is no hope. Without Kerry speaking out more, and without MSM helping to expose the fraud and educate the voters...Democracy IS doomed in this country!

[zann725]

87. I agree too!

Fate often puts between where we 'are' and what we 'want'...a seemingly insurmountable obstacle. In fiction it makes a good character arc...with the 'larger' obstacle creating the 'larger' hero.

I feel that more than most who have run for President, John Kerry felt certain it was his destiny almost his entire life. I heard an interview with Chris Matthews before the election in which he said he remembers meeting with Kerry in a hallway during the Primaries, and Kerry pulled Chris aside and kept emphatically repeating, "I WILL be President. You don't understand, I will." Chris said he convinced him. But between Kerry, and that overwhelming desire to be President, Fate has put the seemingly unsurmountable obstacle of wide-spread Election Fraud. While it might seem unfair, Fate chose EXACTLY the best person to overcome this obstacle...a "fighter" like Kerry with a tireless Prosecutorial background...who's already faced many of the same adversaries he's facing now in his earlier BCCI and Iran-Contra Hearings.

He (and all of us) can walk away from this fight, but Kerry IS the best-equipped to handle this fight (along with the energies and expertise of Arnebeck & Bonifaz). If we don't fight it now...if we don't "stand our ground" and "not back down"...we will NEVER win. They will just roll over us more in the next election, and next...to a point where we will no longer have elections one day.

It IS over...IF we walk away now. But I do NOT believe it is over yet. Besides, I've NOT yet heard the 'fat lady' sing. Have you?

[KerryReallyWon]

64. William, I am getting killed over your post!!!

Why have a recount, and have us pay for it, if not to get JK in the White House? We could just wait and let the media orgs do it after inaugaration, for free, if there is no hope for this. Why did JK raise money to contest? He is using that $$$. Now a lot of people Willima are really mad. After 2000 inaug. the Miami/Herald counted the votes, the Supreme Court made them stop counting. Al Gore won Florida, any way you counted them!! Arnebeck said "we cannot have another 2000. The wrong guy cannot go into the WH. If it happens, I agree with the last post, we will not have reform.

IF JK HAS MORE VOTES, THEN HE GOES TO THE WHITE HOUSE. WHY THE HELL NOT? WHY HAVE A RECOUNT, WITH DONATIONS. THEY WILL DO IT FOR FREE LATER? NOW THE $$$ people are coming after me. One gave $5000.00. Now William, you go tell that to JK's people. Give the money back to the people. Lets count ohio for free later, William, and why don't you do something else? If this is not to change this race. Why did JK take all their money?

[TayTay]

96. We have powerful opposition fighting against us

We have opposition, powerful opposition. They are not going to give up power easily and they control most of the government of Ohio and have nearly all of the Federal government. This is simply the truth. But that doesn't mean that you stop fighting or that the fight is not worth it. Quite the opposite. This is a fight for democracy and for the basic rights of the people to a government that legally, fairly and morally represents them. I can't think of a more important cause to support.

This is a fight for recognition. The SCLM is not screaming about possible fraud and about possible problems with how the votes are counted. This fight is about bringing this problem out of the shadows and into the open. I know that people on DU are talking about this, but it has not crossed over to the general public. In order for change to happen, we have to engage the public, we have to get our concerns into the national public discussion. You do this by building a credible case and presenting facts. And sometimes it takes time.

This is no little thing. This is a massive undertaking that requires commitment, time, money and effort. Sometimes change doesn't happen immediately, that doens't mean you stop fighting or that the fight itself is meaningless. I know that it is hard to think that we might not get the outcome we want now. I know so many people believe they are right and that should justify a new electoral outcome. But it doesn't. And it never will unless this fight exceeds just this election.

Many fights in American history took time. People see a problem and come up with a solution. They then have to convince their fellow citizens that the problem exists and that the problem has a solution. We are still proposing the problem. Many issues are that way. But we are getting closer.

I am so sorry that this pains so many people. But I ask you to think of what civil liberties fight in American history was easy or was solved quickly. Getting women the right to vote took decades, civil rights for all people took decades. I don't think we have to wait that long on this, but we do have to have patience. Change will come. Your efforts matter. And the cause is worth it.

[Donailin]

131. Of course not!

"We have opposition, powerful opposition. They are not going to give up power easily "

to do so would mean certain crimnial charges. Folks, we are not dealing with honest civil servants here, we are dealing with a group of thugs that would put the MOB to shame, they just have better suits and "God on their side". They are still criminal thugs all the same.

[Nederland]

106. Answer

Why have a recount, and have us pay for it, if not to get JK in the White House?

The answer is simple: to get to the truth. If the truth ends up that Bush got more votes than Kerry in Ohio, then so be it. However, this is cannot be about getting "our" guy into the White House. It must be about principle, not politics.

[Viktor Runeberg]

76. The legislatures

The legislatures, however, having chosen a process, are bound by law to it. So it comes down to whether existing state law is fairly applied - a matter subject to both state and federal review, as well as public perception.

[Viktor Runeberg]

78. The legislatures

The legislatures, however, having chosen a process, are bound by law to it. So it comes down to whether existing state law is fairly applied - a matter subject to both state and federal review, as well as public perception.

[corky44]

86. If Kerry won and we prove it he is going in

no matter what anybody says. We cannot kiss off
the next 4 years (and who knows what else) because it may get really messy.
We won't have an election in four years if they are allowed to get away with this.
FAKE will be the new real!
Fight now!

[leftchick]

90. exactly!

sad but true and we still have such a fight ahead of us.

[Wiley50]

110. Oh! Really?

All the more reason for us all to pour out into the streets and raise some real hell.
I guess that there are some really bogus,antique,obscure and unfair clauses in this document known as our constitution that we hold so highly.
It seems to me that through revolt and protest we have eliminated other flaws in it like race and gender bias.
I guess it is time to make a change so that a true majority of these individual citizens do actually have the power that we have imagined that we had.
Thanks for waiting until now to let us know.
Viva La Revolution!

Wiley

[McCamy Taylor]

5. in other words, this is Watergate II and we are the IP

[saracat]

9. If we don't prove fraud and overturn the election

this isn't as hopeful as Watergate. We can't even impeach the SOB because they control everything and wouldn't vote for it!

[Celeborn Skywalker]

7. That's what I've said all along

It's not about Kerry at all. Barring a miracle, he won't be sworn in January. But my hope is this investigation will once and for all expose the rethuglican party for who they really are and will clear the way for future, fairer, elections.

[Helga Scow Stern]

8. There seems to be a conundrum, though...

if the current power structure remains within the law, is it likely or even possible that anything will be changed, let alone addressed?

[insane_cratic_gal]

10. I believe

for me anyway it is about fair elections, It is about exposing the last 2 presidental elections as fraud. The means that repukes went to do commit these terriost attacks against democracy!.

If something happend that Kerry's rightful title was someone how bestowed upon him, that would just be a bonus.

I'd settle for impeachment for Bush's entire Regime.

Anyone want to make a Deck of cards with Bushco on it? :=)

[LSparkle]

32. Ooh yeah, if there isn't one already.

Condi can be Queen of ... you know. (OK, OK, don't get your knickers in a twist -- I apologize for that but it does seem apropos for her.)

[insane_cratic_gal]

37. So long as Rove

Is the Joker..?
I can handle Condi being the Queen of hearts. Kissy kissy poo/Bush and all

[LSparkle]

49. I was thinking of another suit

and not red. (That's why the advance apology.) How 'bout ol' Bar as Queen Hearts? (sarcasm)

[Donailin]

132. the problem is that

eight years waiting for something to be fair seems futile. How can we unring the bell of death Bush has rung? How do we make things right again?

[BeHereNow]

11. So are you saying...

Changing the tablecloth isn't going to change the
fact that the tableonly has three legs?
If you are, then I couldn't agree more.
We need to fact the fact that the table is broken.
Calling all carpenters!
bhn

[whalerider55]

13. Amen, Mr Pitt

Without enfranchisement, there will be no more elections that can be trusted

I have expressed, (and been flamed here for it), my belief that this should always have been framed as an issue of enfranchisement that all dems, and whatever coalition made sense, should be screaming about- that every vote possible needs to be cast, and counted as cast.

I believe the timidity of the Dems on this issue will cost them in 2006, and 2008. How can you ask people to come out and vote for you in another election, when you weren't willing to fight for their righht to have their vote counted in this one?

bad, bad joo-joo.

whalerider55

[elizm]

54. Absolutely!!

If the Dems don't stand up on this...and it doesn't look as though that is going to happen...I'll be voting GREEN! What is there to lose???

[patdem]

14. Will, I woke up Sunday..and suddenly understood ...this was about

democracy...this recount was not about Kerry or bush** We had 2000, 2002 and 2004. We might allow this latest fraud to stand, but we cannot allow it to continue!

If this election is allowed to not be questioned and examined then no other election is worth a damn!

When I woke up it was like a START...I understood perfectly ...this was about the future of democracy in America, not about Kerry. I even thought I did not care if bush** remained president for the next four years if we can get an election that is totally transparent in the future it would be worth that sacrafice, because it is about the people...not the person!

[idealista]

65. so even with * in the WH, they can't be so arrogant

because next election will be a "real" election. THey will have to start "governing" as if we could really throw them out next time. And if they know they didn't even get 50% of the vote, that should clip their wing, thank god.

[whalerider55]

161. thanks PD

I's like a lightning bolt and a cosmic "duh" moment combined, is't it?

This is the major crisis of our democracy; and i'm taking names and will remember who spoke out and who cowered now, when it really mattered.

the key will be when the congress meets to accept the electors...
there are fourteen congress people already signed onto a petition to reject the results (a la 2000). All they need is a Senator to co-sponsor, and then the election will get thrown to the Congress.

And i know they control congress. But my thinking is let them steal this one in broad daylight, not in locked down Boards of electors or in the back offices of the supreme court. if that isn't a wakeup call to the country...

whalerider55

[dbfl33040]

15. no

Kerry's not gonna be president (at least not this time!)

[proud patriot]

16. Nope, I expect the worst and hope for the best

do all I can to expose FRAUD ..

Focuss ;-)

[Wordie]

53. Yours is probably the most sensible approach. Perhaps it would be best

for people to simply recognize that whether they want Kerry in, or look at it as primarily the larger issue of voter disenfranchisement that needs to be resolved, the way to achieve either goal is to work together to expose the problems.

[proud patriot]

61. Hey thanks Wordie

good to see you again today :headbang:

[Doremus]

17. Indeed, there is no more important fight

The fight for democracy transcends individual political officeholders.

Thank you for your eloquence and leadership role in fighting the battle.

[demo dutch]

18. Yes, but those changes will not be made unless there is major

coverage by the MSM which will bring it in the foreground and outrage the people! Politicans will not move otherwise!

[WilliamPitt]

21. ...and there will be no MSM coverage

unless and until we move the debate into an issue of disenfranchisement and away from the Get-Kerry-In argument. The MSM will dismiss us as bitter-enders, hell they already have. A story about the old man with the IV who couldn't vote because the line is too long, however, is the wedge in which to place the prybar

Or the fact that people argue gun ownership is a right EXPLICIT in the constitution, but voting is only a right IMPLICIT.

Etc.

[saracat]

35. Ah, yes reach out to the non existant "moderates" and

"undecided" who never will vote for us to begin with! Sounds like you support the DLC Republican Lite view of reframing the issues, Will. I beg to differ if that is so. We will never win until we offer a clear alternative. If centrism worked the Republicans would have used it.

[jamboi]

138. I'm a radical moderate, and I certainly exist. Large plurality in US reach

able by media. Need to work on our media connections, especially a liberal MSM TV network. Phil Donahue was extremely popular, just a little bit ago. Don't despair.

[Razorback_Democrat]

141. A "Radical moderate"???? LOL

that's like saying radical milktoast

if you are a radical, then you are a radical, no moderate about it!

[jamboi]

145. Radical means root. I'm radically committed to moderation. Aristotle.

We have the signatures turned off right now, but if we didn't you'd see that I proclaim that right in my signature. I adopted that because it is humorous in the way that you just caught and gets people's attention. I'm rooted in the middle.

[Razorback_Democrat]

149. Come on Jamboi! I've read your posts!

Your a radical progressive like most of us here!

[jamboi]

154. I'm very much against extremism, left or right. If this was the left steal

ing the election I'd be over someplace like the Free Republic preaching my line of Jeffersonian constitutional democracy just as vociferously.

[jamboi]

156. The action of the Fraudsters has pushed me left in this issue. I have some

issues I'm on the liberal side on and some I'm on the conservative side on, but I hug the middle very tightly. Since we are experiencing a slow motion coup here I'm casting my lot with the group that is motivated to hold to the constitution. I'm loyal to the constitution.

[jamboi]

158. Also the US is so conservative right now, centerists like myself look left

but just spend some time in Europe and you'll see. I'm not a socialist, and even the liberal mindset of some of DU sometimes rubs me wrong. I like things a little more organized and controled than we have here. That's part of my centrist thinking. But I'll hang with any who are sincerely committed to the rule of law and constitutionalism, whatever their stripe.

[jamboi]

165. Just google "Radical Moderate" !!! You'll be suprised. Books, blogs, etc.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Radical+Moderate%22

[whalerider55]

168. and i am a radical pragmatist

to me, pragmatism is the development and implementation of policies that are compassionate, respectful, empowering, scientifically supportable, make use of knowledge and promote community, invest in the environment and in human beings for the future, balancing corporate needs with the needs of people, curbing the military spending by increasing social spending (and other science-based projects like the space program), housing people instead of sheltering them....

and the radical part? i wanna fucking do it NOW- i'm sick and tired of waiting,sick of bullshit, timidity, poorly framed debates, small thinking... greed, lack of accountability. I want shit to start happening now, and i've already, as an elected official (albeit a green one) have thrown myself into the fray.

grrr...
whalerider55

[jamboi]

178. Yeah, fellow Green! I'm action oriented too. Perhaps unusual 4 moderate

but I wait until I am convinced first then move. I'm also willing to go with hunches. In this case Nov 3rd my hunch was "something is terribly wrong here." Not just with the presidential race but with many congressional races too.

[whalerider55]

180. jamboi

that's why Kerry holding on to the cash really pissed me off. I know he donated more money than any presidential candidate in history to downticket races, but sheesh, some of that cash would have mnade a difference, somewhere downticket, no?

and by refusing to endorse a full recount across the country,of all races, i know we've sold some downticket candidates down the tubes.

then we'll complain about how we can't do anything because "they" own both houses of congress. sometimes i think they stole it, sometimes i think they won them, and sometimes i worry that maybe, some of these seats, we just gave up on them.

whalerider55

[jamboi]

188. whalerider55,

I think JK is a falible human and maybe he made a mistake in the way that you describe. I don't know all the rules that constrained the spending of that money. But really that is a DNC issue. They really blew it. Here's an article about $$ and the Dems:
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/money/articles/2004/12/13/kerry_loss_wasnt_over_money/

Also its hard to win a game that's fixed. I have come to think that the fraud was so widespread that it effected a lot of these races. I think what happened was like what Robert Parry in this article: http://www.consortiumnews.com/2004/1106

As for the recount, yes what you say is true about the advantages of across the board recounts. I think its a matter of bringing the average moderate american along to this incredibly frightening and foreign concept: That we are in the midst of a slow motion coup. That is very tough for people to conceive of. I think if Kerry had jumped straight to that position without enough developed research and evidence it would likely have backfired. This way he looks incredibly reasonable to the moderate average American.

This game is very much still in play. Lets' keep playing and see what kind of score we can run up.

[whalerider55]

194. i agree n/t

[saracat]

200. And the DNC and the DLC are the so called "moderates"!

with which you obviously don't agree!:yourock:

[jamboi]

201. Yeah, well with any sector of the political spectrum theres a range of

opinion. I would say put up against the full global range of political thinkers I would be close to the middle and the DNC/DLC would be a little to the right. They are moderates, but I don't agree with them. Also the thing with moderates is we are purposely very slow to boil. We are (pick your word) stable/stuck/insensitive/unwavering/blind. You get what I mean? We are centrists and not easily moved.

Using me for an example, I didn't understand that * was really stealing votes on a massive scale until just after this election. I knew there were things about 2000 that didn't look good, but I never made the leap to actually believing that there was a concerted effort to steal the 2000 election until now. It was an unthinkable and monsterous thing. I would have just laughed it off. It took my own experience of a gut feeling that something was terribly wrong on Nov 3rd, before I was willing to entertain the evidence and notion that indeed the vote had been tampered with.

I think other moderates also will have to be coaxed along. Lead them gently, not by shouting "Bush Cheated!" but rather by emphasizing we have to investigate ALL election fraud, whether by Democrat or Republican. It must be presented as a non-partisan issue, which it truly is. Walk the moderates through this, step by step and go slowly. They already have a sinking feeling, so show them the non-controversial hard facts that are getting MSM attention, and really there's plenty there. Voter suppression, vote fraud (mostly by Dems), computer glitches, Warren Co lockdown. Think of KO as the entry barrier to moderates and stick to the stuff he reports positively. If he promotes it, you can be sure it will fly w/ moderates.

[saracat]

199. If you support or liked Donahue, you are no

moderate by current definition!

[procinderella]

151. Moderates exist

I'm from Illinois. 75% voted for Obama. 25% did not. The DID NOTS will never be convinced.

There is a rational half of the Repub party. I've seen it. You may be surprised if vote fraud is proven.

[elizm]

68. Like the way you think...

This IS the issue.

[liberalnurse]

75. I'm fine with that.

I think most people are reasonable....Hearing the facts can evoke change in the future when all realize they have been "Had".

[TruthIsAll]

79. Getting Kerry "in" and "exposing" the theft are two sides of the same coin

You cannot have one without the other. By definition, if it's proven that Bush stole it, then he cannot remain in the office he stole the first time. He was selected then, not elected. But this time everything has changed.

Fool us once, shame on Bush.
Fool us twice, shame on us.

The difference between 2004 and 2000 is that then, there was
no hint of fraud, per se. It was the punched card machines, the undervotes, the overvotes, the Chads, the butterflies. We didn't know a damn thing about the disenfranchisement of thousands of blacks in Florida until Greg Palast reported - too late to do and ignored by the media. So nothing was done and the recount was halted by SCOTUS.

This time, it's much different. The fraud is massive - its not just hanging chads, its everything. It's Republican voting machines with no paper trail programmed for Bush. It's Diebold counting the optiscan votes. It's exit polls which at first showed a solid Kerry wing and which were manipulated later on to match the rigged votes. It's registration fraud, voter intimidation, spoiled punched cards.

Many of the major Republican dailies which were for Bush in 2000 supported Kerry this time. And they KNOW he stole it. The question is: at what point will they come out and say so? How close are the NYT and WP to breaking this story? Because when they do, its all over for Bush. You can bet on it.

There has been a growing realization of the most massive fraud in history, and it's unfolding before our lyin' eyes - and its only been six weeks! Powwerful circumstantial evidence of statistical anomalies in conjunction with the massive documented incidence of fraud, is a staggering combination. It canot be ignored or covered up for long.

So, Will, do you truly believe that Bush, who lost both elections is going to get away with it? He may well survive to inauguration day, but his days are numbered. If we don't believe that, there is nothing left to believe in.

It's as simple as this: To believe that Bush will remain in office, is to believe that the Coup is complete. Democracy is dead. Truth, Justice and the American Way are concepts which no longer have any meaning.

Will, this is not 2000. This is 2004. Its a whole new ballgame.

[bloom]

189. To believe that Bush will remain..., is to believe the Coup is complete

I agree.


This is the time. We can't let it slip away.

[Helga Scow Stern]

124. No one gives a damn about disenfrancisement unless it changes the result.

We are fooling ourselves to think otherwise. It is a boring issue.

Goodnight.

And they will just keep stealing. I think if the original power that got out the vote isn't tapped--and that is the energy of "Kerry won!"--this is a go to sleep issue.

So you may be right about Kerry not being in the WH. But this issue is not at all interesting if it is just something to bring about some obscure legislation like HAVA which is so piggy-backed with loopholes that it is as much harm as good.

[Donailin]

135. Will, do you believe the election was stolen from Kerry?

Based on all evidence you've seen thus far, based on the record of Bush, Rove, and assoc., do you believe that Bush won legitmately?

Also, what say your contrmporaries?

From your tone here, I get the feeling that you've heard something substantive from higher up, something certain. Certainly unhopeful wrt to finding the massive corruption of votes.

[NMDemDist2]

19. agreed Will

this is about the future.

If you haven't read the mail from Michael Moore yet please do so!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x91776

This is not about our candidate or our party's power, this is about the actual future of democracy and America as a progressive nation.

Stand tall for what we believe in, look the regressive right in the eye and say "No Way! Not in MY country you don't! and I have 57 million Americans who feel just like I do. Are you going to jail us all?"

Keep up the pressure on the media, tell you friends and make a loud noise in both your state and federal representatives offices.

I'm here with you, Will, and I won't back down. As the country spirals into economic ruin I will tell them they were wrong, but I have an answer for the country's pain. It's called progressive, enlightened government. We should try it for a change.

[anamandujano]

20. the exposed fraud should lead to kerry moving in

even if he replaces bush in june 2005. it should not be a replay of 2000--when it was discovered that gore won, everyone one said, oh well too late now. arnebeck said the evidence will lead to kerry getting the nod.

edit to add--we should make it clear that we do not accept that bush was elected until all the votes are counted including some returned to their proper column. we do not accept the artifical time frame. if it's shown that kerry won, he moves in, no matter when.

[Freddie Stubbs]

133. There is no constitutional basis for that

Even if you could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Bush himself reprogrammed voting machines to steal the election, Kerry is not going to move into the White House. If both Bush and Cheney were impeached and removed from office the Speaker of the House would become President. Neither The junior Senator from Massachusetts nor the guy with the second most votes in the Electoral College is in the line of succession.

[demo dutch]

171. Speaker of the house. But isn't it so that congress ultimately

can decide on January 6th whether to accept the result and if they don't they can possibly elect Kerry. (fat chance with the repubs dominating)

[anamandujano]

191. so cheating is okay?

--more like treason

[tandem5]

24. I agree. n/t

[Kellis]

25. Hear Hear!

Well said Will.This is bigger than the President elect.This is about Democracy.Liberty and Justice for All.

:toast:

[Gregorian]

26. We just want them to know that we know

And that we will continue to watch. And that people should be embarrassed.
I came yelling to my 80 year old dad that DU was roaring ahead with great information, and all he said was it ain't gonna happen. He's a very smart man, unlike me. And I realized right then, that he was right. Even if we did overturn it, there would be no reversing this fraudulent election.
In 2000 the internet was still young. In 2004 we had a network that enabled us to follow the fraud. And thanks to people like Will, we had the information to pass around.
As long as they know that we are vigilant, they will be fearful of committing their fraudulent activities. I see this as the beginning of vigilance, not the death of democracy. (But couldn't it have happened with anyone other than Bush? Geez, I want to puke.)

[New Earth]

28. Excuse me, I think everyone is entitled to their own expectations

and i'm sure even those who hope the election is overturned and Kerry does win, ALSO are in this for the fight against election fraud/voter suppression altogether.

I don't think anyone here is willing to do anything dramatic or illegal to make sure Kerry wins.

I also don't think it is YOUR PLACE to tell everyone what this 'is' or 'isn't' about as if it's God's word.



wow, that is the first time i've been so blunt, i am very sorry it had to be toward someone who's NEWS i usually am eager to hear.

[naryaquid]

33. ..I agree.....Thank ya mz. faye!

[Stand and Fight]

40. Agreed.

I take the simple attitude that we shall just have to wait and see. No one can say with any amount of REAL certainty what is going to happen.

I'm not placing any bets right now one way or the other.

We'll just have to wait and see.

[angrydemocrat]

114. Amen!!!

You said best Faye!

[KittyWampus]

34. Meaningful Election Reform Is The Ultimate Wedge Issue

[CupaJoe]

36. Disagree

I'm in this to have Bush removed from the White House. Right now, the best way to do that is to show that Kerry actually got more votes or that fraud occurred.

It is unlikely that Congress will vote to accept Ohio's Bush electors if it is shown conclusively in the next 10 days that (1) Kerry got more actual votes in Ohio and/or (2) there was demonstrable and significant election fraud in Ohio or Florida.

[Jamel]

57. Accept being robbed?

I agree that this is MORE than just exposing the fraud. Do you mean to tell me if I'm robbed, and we catch the thief, he can keep what he stole from me? Then I'm told we will investigate to learn from this experience, just to keep the next thief from robbing me? I'm ready for a damn fight! Who the hell do these people think they are? Do you really think they would let Kerry into the WH, if the situation was reversed? I'm ready to hit the streets, arthritis, cane, portable heating pad and all! Only the people can take this country back. We will suffer greatly over the next 4 years if we don't! How many people can survive for 4 more years?

[SharonRB]

217. LOL

Great analogy!

[karlrschneider]

99. Perhaps you haven't noticed the House AND the Senate are GOP

controlled?
:eyes:
We are confronting people whose -only- principle (!?) is "win at any cost."

[bobbieinok]

160. with such republican control?? the leaders will do ANYTHING they deem

necessary to stay in power and carry out their agenda

new meme???? 'beware the republican agenda, un-American and anti-democracy'

[sunnystarr]

184. That's exactly what I want to see them do .... anything and

everything to stay in power. That will expose them all publicly as enemies of our democracy. So while they may stay in power until their next (s)election, their incumbency won't be enough to get them re-elected. Save all their quotes, save all the clips, and the DNC should be ready with arsenal of ammunition to get rid of each and every one them.

Keep hammering on the election fraud until the message gets to every community and when they see it in campaign ads let voters start to really wonder if their vote counts at all.

In the meantime do everything possible to expose the truth now ... and Kerry should be leading that fight now that the electors have met - if he avoids it or sits on the fence then he's political history.

Blackwell HAS TO BE charged criminally. We should be fighting for that since it would confirm the election fraud and the enormity of the Repukes betrayal to our democracy and the American people.

It's times like this that I really wish I could believe in miracles. I want to see * drummed out of Washington sooooooooo bad!!

[sepia_steel]

38. I think we all agree

that this is bigger than whether we will end up with Kerry.

BUT - to say we already know for sure that * will stay in office - no matter how much fraud is proven - is premature, and yes, irritating to those of us with hope left.

This is huge. I believe that this CAN and SHOULD lead to Kerry being our next President. I don't feel that it's naive for anyone believe this, either. I reject the idea that Kerry has no shot.

Hope is important to us. Please, have your opinions everyone, but don't trivialize my hope.

[naryaquid]

41. Thak ya, Ms. Sepia_Steel and Mr. Cupa!

[liam97]

42. Irrespective of Kerry

do we realise that if this elction goes unchallenged then there is no meaningful way reform can happen. We cannot say ok lets abide by the results of one fraudulent election but lets then change the rules. Logically impossible.

The brilliant Bonifaz has summarized this brillinatly. People pick the electors - if the electors are elected fraudulently then their choice for President is fraudulent as well.

Either we work on proving this argument or we give up altogther. There is no midway.

[Lexingtonian]

39. yep

This fight is just one more piece of our fundamental stance as a Party about the central issue of this era in American politics:

14th. Amendment to the U.S. Constitution
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Banning gay marriage, unfair elections, and the abuses at Guantanamo & Abu Ghraib- and everything else The Other Side defends- are all part and parcel of a willingness to sabotage any and all parts of the Constitution so that this one Section is not enforced.

[rumpel]

43. I hear you, but if evidence proves criminal acts have occured,

would we not be able to have those responsible be indicted?
Even, as I believe. it will never go all the way up the chain of command, that would at least cast the legitimacy cloud over the administration for the next fours years?

[troubleinwinter]

44. Clean up our elections to prevent disenfranchisement and

fraud, so that we can have legitimate elections in the future that people can rightfully trust.

A side benefit is to show that Bush was not chosen by the people, hence has no "mandate" and has no "political capital", so that HOPEFULLY, people will be more questioning about his actions in the next term.

[libertypirate]

45. About us not Kerry, We the people...

[intelle]

46. I agree with you Will

I think it is very important that the fraud be exposed, and the fact that it was the republican party that largely benefitted from the fraud should be part of this exposure.

It will, I am sure, serve to delegitimize the mandate that Bush and his administration seem to think they have, and, it may even open the door to the validation of other investigations such as 9/11 that have been ongoing, but going nowhere. If they cheated this time (again), what else have they done?

On November 3, even though I was very upset when Kerry conceded, I had the very strong feeling that it may just be that Bush needed to be "reselected" so that he (and his administration) can be brought to justice. With a new person in the White House, this might not have been the priority, but, with Bush still there, it definitely may be a priority of those dems (and some repubs) who suspect that we have a criminal in the WH.

I have also felt that things may well need to get worse before they get better in order for the majority of Americans to wake up. But, I have a strong faith in our citizens, and I think we will eventually have a true democracy...one that we can all be proud of being part of.

Thanks for your words, Will.




:loveya:

[bush_is_wacko]

47. Actually

Kerry in the WH is secondary. What I think people want is to be able to trace the fraud ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP! I think for most of us our fight is two fold. I agree that we MUST fight for fair and honest elections in the future, but, to me, the bigger issue is that we either allow or disallow a CRIMINAL administration to have control over our country even with the knowledge that the election is likely COMPLETELY fraudulant! Every member, whether Repub or Democrat elected to office this year is questionable. If the presidential election was fraudulant than we have to assume the rest is also fraudulant, unless someone proves otherwise. I know what you are trying to say is to "look at the big picture, see the future, be the future" type stuff. But don't you think it speaks pretty loudly to our future if we allow * to stay in office even knowing that the election was illegitamate?

On Edit: Letting a President serve 2 illegitamate terms is an outrage, no?

[bleever]

50. If the votes are actually counted, Kerry will assume office.

The fight is bigger than one man, and must continue regardless of his fate.

But the fight is to accurately count the votes. If that is done, Kerry will be president.

If massive fraud comes to light without Kerry taking office, then the BFEE will have at least partially gotten away with this crime.

I say, play to win. But even if I don't get to drink Will's champagne, I won't give up, just as he won't.

[KoKo]

51. Champagne might be on you.....although I agree with what you say as

an overview about why we shouldn't get our hopes up for a resolution to this soon. Many DU'ers are looking for a "crash" if they think Chimp isn't going to get his Inaugural Cloak of "second legitimacy."

But, I think Kerry WILL have his day...but the possibility that Gore will have his sooner is why I think about the champagne.

Maybe it's wishful thinking...but I think that avenging Gore is worth whatever we have to do. And, if fraud is found...it will link back to 2000 and in the end...Gore is the President...and like the ancient Egyptians who cut out the names of Pharoahs whom they didn't like off monuments...that "Chimp" will be "cut out" of our memory and the "True President" will be revealed.

How it goes from the revelation to reality or what we do if Gore is found through (election fraud links back to original Media Consortium Recount), I don't know.

I just know that Gore was our President. Kerry is not...but I would be fine if it ends up a compromise is reached after all this investigation and Gore and Kerry shake hands and cut a deal...:shrug:

[Carolab]

52. I believe

that Arnebeck believes

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

55. Like any other progressive...

I would love to see the ultimate spanner thrown into The Chimp's works. That would be perfect, but as we all know, there is no such thing as perfection.

So, I am willing to settle for knowing the never, ever again will the single most sacred American moment, the bedrock of this nation, the vote, be sullied by something like this ever again.

Note to the naive: The gaming sullied the vote. Being silent about the gaming would only compound the crime.

If we cannot trust in a fair vote in this nation, then we cannot trust in anything in this nation and it is over. That is unacceptable, in extremis. It must not stand.

So have the dealer throw the cards down and let's get this game a'going. I think I know how it will come out, ultimately.

A note for those magical thinkers out there: If it can be shown that this election was gamed, The Chimp will be eroded terribly. If nothing else, that will afford us four years of diversion that will do something to assuage the pain of living through it.

We will live through it, too.

[indigonation]

56. In a way I'm glad Kerry lost ...

because after getting over my month long depression, I've begun to see it this way. I'm still sad Kerry lost, and always saw it as long stretch to overturn the results. But we would have never had the opportunity like now to expose and bring down the corrupt and privatized election system and its sponsors. If Kerry had won, would the Pugs be trying to point a finger at the Dems?

Who knows, but now we have frauds and liars to expose, and I'm glad its ShrubCo. Otherwise, if we don't fix this, is it worth ever voting again?

[progressoid]

58. The discussions here (and elsewhere on the net) clearly show a problem

we have. Our 'message' is not clear. We span the spectrum from militant-tin-foilers to simple truth seekers. Not to defend the horrid actions (or rather inactions) of the MSM, but there isn't a single, distinct story here. Compounding the problem is an apparent lack of leadership from the DNC.

Frankly, it's a bit of a cluster-fuck.

Today, I came to realize I need to hunker down for a serious fight for the next 4 years. I expect to lose clients, friends and family. But I cannot let my children inherit a nation like this. I was too silent for the last 4 years, mistakenly believing that my fellow citizens would come to their senses.


Someone once said..."There's an old saying in Tennessee. I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee, that says: "Fool me once... shame on...um, shame on you...If fooled, you can't get fooled again."

[Pseudofool]

206. "Our message"

progessoid stated earlier that "Our 'message' is not clear."

I think this is a particulary important point--not that we simply lack of message; but rather, why we lack a message.

Conversatives have a very clear agenda--no questions asked--there is rather very little dispute between between leading Rebuplicans (save for McCain/Rumsfield, but this too is a small quibble over strategy, not values or ideology).

Liberals, on the other hand, have different and discrete values, heirarchy of priorities, etc than each other. Liberalism as a concept signifies 'free thinking'--this inevitibly muddles any comprehensive message we could have. We use our heads and our hearts; we reason; we empathize; we draw on our experience--in fact, we typically would reject any notion of a singular message.

Conservatives on the other hand have preprescribed values, lifestyles, opinions. Typically, they tend to keep each other in line through patriotism or religion etc., working to streamline their agenda and stay on the same page as everyother Republican.

Liberals only hope, I fear, for a unified message, is one of the anti-message. We can rally around what we oppose more than what we'd fight for. (i.e some prefer enviromentalism, some civil rights, some education, some social programs, etc. although generally we are all for these things, we have preferences, and asking us to rally around any signular message ultimately marginalizes others we'd be counting on.).

[Cleita]

59. Sadly, I don't think you're wrong, however which mountain

are we going to have to move in the next two years to push through some really meaningful voting reforms?

I'm for banning all voting machines in the future and doing a manually marked ballot, which is hand counted by the two major opposition parties involved. If we can do this one step first, then could we push through other reforms, like a voting holiday, abolition of the electoral college and, dare I hope for run-off voting? *heart be still*

[DemGa]

60. Yes, I do

If fraud is proven, if it is shown that Kerry won Ohio, nothing less will do.

[pipes]

62. Prove Fraud and disenfranchisement and...

We might not get Kerry but we will show the country that all repukes are cheatin lyin bastards. Especially the faux regime we have now.

Personally, I feel that if Kerry was to win this time around either by uncovering of fraud and nonsense or actually straight up on Nov 2 we woulda been in for a world of hurt the next 4 years and no doubt some sort of impeachment trial because he was just too darn librul.

Whatever the outcome, Will is correct, if we do not repair this now we will no longer have democracy. And then the USA as well as the rest of the world will be losers. But if we do repair the problems and uncover the slimy dirtbags for what they are, I am thinking that the moral superiority claim as well as most of the support will fade away.

Bush legacy will be that of killing the party. The MSM will no doubt get back to actually questioning government and we will have sex scandals in the White House or other "investigative journalism" going on!

The most important thing in your life is the right to vote! Without it you are not really free! We need to make sure that this right is is the most cherished of all in this free country!

[intelle]

104. Just wanted to say

Good post, pipes!

:toast:

[pipes]

215. Thank you!

:toast:

[ClassWarrior]

63. Oooooooh... free champagne!!

Seriously, I couldn't agree more, Will.

NGU.

[hlthe2b]

66. NO, But I'd surely like to see it land many a guilty Repug behind bars...

and provide the impetus for election reform.

[KerryReallyWon]

67. William, I am getting killed by the $$$ people who donated to pay for this

Why have a recount, and have us pay for it, if not to get JK in the White House? We could just wait and let the media orgs do it after inaugaration, for free, if there is no hope for this. Why did JK raise money to contest? He is using that $$$. Now a lot of people Willima are really mad. After 2000 inaug. the Miami/Herald counted the votes, the Supreme Court made them stop counting. Al Gore won Florida, any way you counted them!! Arnebeck said "we cannot have another 2000. The wrong guy cannot go into the WH. If it happens, I agree with the last post, we will not have reform.

IF JK HAS MORE VOTES, THEN HE GOES TO THE WHITE HOUSE. WHY THE HELL NOT? WHY HAVE A RECOUNT, WITH DONATIONS. THEY WILL DO IT FOR FREE LATER? NOW THE $$$ people are coming after me. One gave $5000.00. Now William, you go tell that to JK's people. Give the money back to the people. Lets count ohio for free later, William, and why don't you do something else? If this is not to change this race. Why did JK take all their money?

[BamaBecky]

73. EXCELLENT POINT!! n/t

[BamaBecky]

69. Yes, I actually did think there MIGHT BE A CHANCE to get Kerry in the

White House. I WAS ALSO painfully aware that this is about Democracy and the right to have accurate vote counting. It makes sense to me that as long as we are shouting "Kerry, Kerry", the right will tune us out. I keep reading about Gore actually won the 2000 election. I need a link for that, because I just this year became an activist . I really do not think that Americans realize that Gore actually won. I didn't know it and I thought I was paying attention. AS long as the main stream media ignores this, the public will too! I recommend that we EDUCATE the public by putting "flyers" or "brochures" in every drive way, grocery store, laundry mat, bulletin board we can find. A real GRASS ROOTS effort of the old fashion kind.

[Garbo 2004]

103. Bushwatch.com has info, links to media stories on media consortium recount

of Florida 2000. Basically, if all votes were counted statewide, including "undervotes" where the intent of the voter could be discerned, the consortium concluded that Gore won Florida. http://www.bushwatch.com/gorebush.htm

As I recall, the results of the consortium's investigation were to be released in Sept 2001, but when Sept 11 happened the release was postponed until Novemenber. And as I recall the report results were not given a particularly high profile in the media. Most often it was presented like an afterthought or footnote, with the headline "Bush Won" or something like that. The information about Gore winning Florida if ALL votes were counted statewide was usually buried in the MSM if mentioned at all and not reflected in the lead or the headlines.

[BamaBecky]

113. thank you n/t

[IHeart1993]

70. It will take away the "mandate"

And blind the "moral majority" with science!

[Malikshah]

71. Thank you Mr. Pitt--the is bigger than Kerry

and hence Kerry needs to go out in a blaze of glory-- demanding verification in a constant litany of Press conferences--

Exposure is what is key.

[nofurylike]

72. kick n/t

:toast:

[Vinnie From Indy]

74. Things to Consider About This Position

By publicly stating at this time that C+ Augustus is almost certainly to be inaugurated is, I believe, a mistake. The media has almost universally proclaimed that the reason they have not given significant coverage to the issue of election fraud is because John Kerry conceded. If we concede as well and publicly declare our efforts focused on making future elections fair, we will be slapped to the back of the bus in a heartbeat and ignored. There is also the issue of alienating potentially millions of Democrats that felt we rolled over in 2000 and, now, again in 2004. That could set the stage for a significant fracturing of the Dem Party through defections to the Green Party or the Libertarian Party. Our fight has to remain, I believe, focused on securing Kerry as the rightfully elected president of THIS election. I will, of course, retract my statements if this is all just a plan to keep the freepers off guard!

"Was it OVER when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"
"Hell No!"

And, it ain't over now!

[Wordie]

77. Razorback_Democrat coined a great term: "Coincidence Theorists" in a

different thread. It's one that both camps, the "get Kerry in" camp and the "its a bigger issue" camp, can probably appreciate, so I am posting it in this thread. It seems to sum up a lot of what we all have been up against in getting the story out. I hope we can all come together in a realization of who the enemy really is, even if we are disagreeing on how to combat the enemy.

[jamboi]

Yeah, I love that! n/t

[Razorback_Democrat]

219. Love to take credit for "Coincidence Theorists" but I saw it on DU

somewhere else in the haze of the last 42 days since the crime was committed.

[Wordie]

80. dupe deleted by author

[ClintCooper2003]

81. If it becomes clear that they "stole" the election, it's far, far worse...

than Watergate was. There will be public outrage. Bush would go down.

[pointsoflight]

82. Electoral reform is the goal, any changes in the outcome are gravy.

And the very first thing that needs to be done is address the first issue raised in the original post: Make the right to vote explicit in the constitution! The lack of such a provision is preventing us from cleaning up so many things.

[Wordie]

84. dupe deleted by author

[goodhue]

85. indeed

Kerry will not be president anytime soon.
But we must continue to press for ballot integrity.

I'm not sure I understand your point about people not choosing the electors. In Minnesota, we elect our electors at the DFL state and congressional district conventions. (Alas, one of them seems to have had a little problem today). The MN Legislature has nothing to do with selection of electors. The electors are elected by the DFL.

[politicasista]

88. Saving democracy

Kerry would have made a good president.

[karlrschneider]

89. You are exactly right. No way in HELL will the BFEE allow anyone but *

to be inaugurated on 1/20. Ain't gonna happen. And expectations of impeachment are equally fantastic (as in fantasy) But we MIGHT, with enough blood, sweat and tears, 'fix' the ongoing criminal fraud. Maybe.

[burned]

91. Do you think this is about getting Kerry into the WH?

yes

[Junkdrawer]

92. When is enough, enough?

This makes three fraudulent elections in a row...and we still don't hear a peep from Democratic leaders?

Professional Election Losers...truer words were never spoke.

[evolvenow]

93. Kerry was elected President, when that is clear...the Perp Walk of History

will happen. It better be sooner than later, as ** is getting ready to hand out armbands.
I refuse to stop waving the Truth in front of as many people as possible.

[Der Blaue Engel]

94. I, for one, am not willing to settle

for a "reward in heaven" kind of compromise.

It seems to me that the goal is to expose this fraud, and demand justice for the offenders. That's the fight I'm down for.

Yes, it may take time, but I WILL NOT SETTLE. These criminals should not be allowed one minute longer as squatters in the White House.

(Btw, the phrase "you people" is a bit alienating.)

[hippiechick]

95. Mark this day on the calendar ! I actually agree with Pitt !

:freak: Amazing.
And well said, Will.


:hippie:

[KoKo]

97. BTW! "You People" is a little Offensive wouldn't you say? Why shouldn't

folks here have high hopes? Especially those like YOU who have worked their butts off getting folks to the polls, dealing with horrible Freeper Relatives, getting involved with their Local State Government and putting up with HELL for the past four years???

When did YOU decide...we are "YOU PEOPLE?" :shrug: Above it all there???

[karlrschneider]

102. I don't find "you people" offensive...read the first 3 words of the Preamb

Preamble to the Constitution. We ARE the people, and so everyone but -me- are obviously "you" people.

:eyes:

[KoKo]

163. We is very different from YOU...The Constitution is WE as you said, but

Will distanced himself from WE/US by using YOU PEOPLE as if we all didn't share the same goals as Will. It's a small bone to pick. Will sometimes lashes out with this "YOU" thing...just wanted to call him on it...because it could come across as ...well..arrogant. That's all.

[zeemike]

100. Right you are Will

And this should be obvious to all of us from the media blackout of all of this, even C-span has caved into the pressure.
We have to accept the fact that a coup has been in the works sense the beginning and the repukes had a plan to win and to cover up anything that would expose it.
They will just let us beat our heads against a wall of ignoring bricks and they know we do not have the power to change anything.

[The Flaming Red Head]

101. It’s about exposing every dirty deed that got Bush to the Whitehouse again

And not backing down. Why should he have a mandate or an easy time with anything? The religious right didn't get him this office. Kissing babies didn't get him this office. We all know this election wasn't legit and the next one won't be either.

[Wiley50]

105. deleted by poster

[noiretextatique]

107. the fat man hasn't sung yet...untill then

all of these pronouncements are about as accurate as ms. cleo's.

[Freddie Stubbs]

117. The fat lady sang today

The Electoral College voted 286-251-1 for Bush.

[noiretextatique]

123. right...it is that time

i forgot the vote was today...shit. and it is the end. this country makes me sick...i think its beyond redemption unless:

1) body bags pile up from wars
or
2) someone get assasinated

electoral reform...not chance in hell of that without one of the above either.

[Not_Without_A_Fight]

159. I disagree

Millions of Americans have gotten the unwholesome scent of this one -- even if they are not voicing their dissent with their feet and placards.

There will be election reform ... and it will not depend on whether JK gets inaugurated. I am also not saying that this will ensure that no election fraud ever occurs again in this country.

It is disturbing when we get so worked up that we lose sight that democracy is a process and this country will never be without flaw.

Yes, Bush and the PNAC'ers are complete wack and very dangerous -- but this country has been in as much, and more, danger before --- from inside and out.

This is a process. Please do everything you can (including protesting and writing your representatives, and the media etc. etc.) and then -- have faith. This isn't a facist state yet and during the McCarthy era, it looked like it was going that way then, too.

We must do something about lack of media supporting our position and our *message*.

When the fleas over-populate -- the dog will start scratching. This right-wing swing is a phase. Have faith.

[jamboi]

144. Fat lady doesn't sing till the ballots are opened. Jan 6th or even later.

[Vinnie From Indy]

109. This is the WRONG Position

IMHO

To publicly state, at this time, that we concede that Bush will be inaugurated and that our fight against election fraud, suppression etc. is focused on future elections is a mistake. The media has universally justified ignoring this issue because John Kerry conceded. If we concede, the battle for meaningful coverage will get even more difficult. In addition, at what point is it time to raise hell and take to the streets? The next election? This position reminds of Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football.

The issues we have made the cornerstone of the Ohio recount need the urgency of the stated goal to inaugurate the rightfully elected candidate THIS ELECTION! In addition to giving the media the excuse they have been looking for to drop their meager coverage down to non-existent, there is the issue of alienating untold numbers of "on the fence" Democrats. Many will not stand for ANOTHER acquiescence to a stolen election by the Democrats. I would predict many will go Green or Libertarian as a protest against the lack of focus on this election when it could have mattered. While I agree that the likelihood of a Kerry Inauguration is extremely remote, I won't admit that until a week after a Bush inauguration.

[The Flaming Red Head]

111. One more thing.This is Torture inc we’re standing up to, not baby kissers.

Sure you don’t want to stand up with US?

[SnoopDog]

112. I completely disagree with you there Bub...

If we don't fix this now - we may never be able to do it.

I for one cannot take another four years of this idiot and his policies. Bush has fucked up the economy, the environment, our education system, Medicare, a needless war, killed thousands of our troops, killed thousands of innocent Iraqis, bucked the Geneva Convention, failed to implement true safeguards and protection of our airports, nuclear plants, chemical plants, our borders, and is denounced throughout the world.

And you want to give this madman another four years. Let see… What can he fuck up next? How about Social Security, Alaska for oil, ease more environmental safeguards, the tax system (I do think that needs an overhaul – but I am sure * will fuck us over on that too), cause a few more wars. Privacy – what a joke. Our wonderful new Internet(s) – they will think of something. Religion and God everywhere (sorry I don’t agree with God and religion everywhere). What else? He has four years – he will completely undermine our democracy, our nation.

If nothing else, yes, we all need to keep on fighting for what *we* believe in.

Just my opinion…

[femme.democratique]

115. How is it that all the smart people on DU could be so naive?

As to think that getting Kerry into office isn't an explicit part of this! If we won, WE WON! I don't care about this "technicality". People don't believe they don't have the "right" to vote I think it would be very difficult in a court of public opinion to deny a legitimate result based on this and only this principle. This ones a powderkeg, its things like that that really start civil wars.

Though I agree our elections are really a joke and need to be re-archictected from the ground up, I must ask- why do you presume there will even be a *next* election to "improve"? Exactly what is it that you fail to understand about the utter contempt for "We The People" that this bunch has, and the alarming recent trend of escalating attacks on us and what this portends for our not too distant future?

Some appear to have way too much faith in systems that have little visibility or integrity (ie- Why is it that legislation can get passed WITHOUT ANYONE READING IT!!! Troubling, thinking what other laws have been passed, just waiting for the whole fascist framework to come together?), and in our elected representatives who only REALLY care about us during an election cycle.

Our congress, and Democratic reps have shown NO backbone when it really counts. There *are* those reps with integrity and who work hard on our behalf, (such as the good people from the judiciary committee) but in general the appalling apathy over this issue should give you all the information you need to know. Kerry has until 1/6 til he's on my sh*t list.

Over and over again our government has failed and abused its people and we really have little or no effect on the overall picture or direction of governance. Control of the media has seen to that. Personally I believe we are already in a constitutional crisis. For some here not to see all of this reminds me alot of the Freeps with their blind loyalty to a corrupt entity hidden by a thin facade of nationalistic glory. I respect you all, and have always enjoyed your posts WilliamPitt, but the level of myopia here troubles me.

[saracat]

119. Great post !I agree! 100%t

[saracat]

121. Dupe

[Helga Scow Stern]

128. Right on! Well said femme.democratique. n/t

[CraZdem4life]

118. i disagree

I am sorry, i disagree with your statement. If election fraud by the bush administration is discovered, half of the country will revolt, and we might end up with another threat of sucession and civil war. people of this nation would not like the fact that they are under a monarchy.

[EFerrari]

120. Well, Will Pitt, you're wrong

with all due respect. This is in part about getting the candidate who won the vote into the White House, the electors notwithstanding.

If we are in for the fight of a lifetime, this is no time to prematurely concede an inch, let alone a very long Senator.

Make sure it's good and cold.

[MarkusQ]

122. I agree. Democracy much more important than any single election. (n/t)

[meganmonkey]

125. To answer your question, NO

Thank you for laying it out like this. I know a lot of people really thought that that's what this fight was about all along. Granted, it would be splendid if it were to happen, and i'd take you up on the champagne if it did. But, even if it did happen, we'd still have a lot of work to do to keep Kerry and the media on task. It's not like he would suddenly be the solution to all the problems in this nation.

I think to some extent many people used this possibility as a motivation to participate in this movement, but seldom did people acknowledge that the issues that have been revealed and made public by people in this forum, and by others around the country, go incredibly far beyond these two candidates and this election. Fraud and corruption are not new. But the methods of fraud and the impact of corruption are new, and the ability of regular people - people like us here at DU - to communicate and brainstorm and share examples and compile evidence, well that IS new. And it is REVOLUTIONARY. And we cannot let disappointments about one battle make us give up on the war. This is SO important and DU is SO IMPORTANT in this scenario. We really do have the potential for a LOT of power. And it comes from our paying attention to detail, and our sharing of the things we find. WE MUST BE RELENTLESS!!! This is not an easy fight, but it is worth fighting.

btw, get off your asses and into the streets if you care so much. the 51 capitol march was almost an ambarrassment. For the 4 to 1000 people who actually showed up in each city, here's to us:

:toast:

[Carl Brennan]

127. This is self-defeating IMO and will only fracture

the effort to find out the truth. We should NEVER accept Bush as the legitimate President if, in fact, he was elected through fraudulent means. We should work to have him removed from office if he tries to steal the presidency a second time. Screw the technicalities. If the law allows a gross fraud to go unchecked then the law needs to be challenged on the grounds that it runs counter to the larger principles of free, fair and accountable elections.

[txindy]

129. I understand what you're saying

This is, first and foremost, about exposing the fraud and protecting our elections from tampering. Anything beyond that is gravy.

Just to be clear, though, I'll be holding you to that champagne as we're enjoying our gravy.

;)

[Donailin]

130. I've not held hope of Kerry being inaugurated, however, I want Bush. . .

to be as irrelevant as possible. I want not only this country, but the world to have doubts about his "legitimacy"

IOW, I want that political capital he thinks he has to be worthless.

[Fly by night]

134. Sorry, Will -- this yellow dog couldn't disagree with you more

Here in southern middle Tennessee, I've raised cattle for about three decades. Let's say I get a new neighbor who moves in from Texas wearing a big cowboy hat but without any cattle when he arrived. But, after a few weeks, I notice that my fences are cut, some of my cattle are missing and my "neighbor" is sporting a new herd that looks suspiciously like the cattle I was missing. Let me tell you straight out that it would not be enough for me to fix my fences, to label my "all hat/formerly no cattle" neighbor as a thief in the community, for me to tell him I had my eye on him or even for him to tell me he wouldn't do it again. I would damn well want my cattle back right then, just before I (and my neighbors) encouraged him to move on down the road. And if he wouldn't go fast enough, we wouldn't hesitate to call my backhoe-owning neighbor for a little small-scale toxic waste removal (big hat and all).

If the Busies stole this election in Ohio, I want MY White House back NOW. I also want to know how many other states' votes were contaminated by their elephant dung because there are likely many other down-ticket races (including here in Tennessee) that were also stolen and whose results would need to be reversed NOW. I would also want to know if there were immediate vacancies NOW in a federal prison I had bought and paid for with my tax money to house anyone and everyone involved in this treason.

But first and foremost, I want MY White House and my democratic process back NOW. Because let's face it, folks. If the Busies get away with this one, the process isn't breaking down -- it is broken. It doesn't need looking at or studying, it needs fixing or forgetting about. And if we don't fix it now, I'll have to agree with my country neighbors who say they didn't vote because the "powers that be" just put in office who they want anyway. I used to argue with them about that point, but I'd have to agree with them if the Busies are allowed to keep what they will keep telling us they got because it just "fell off the truck". (Musta just been a "glitch" in their giddy-yup. Yeah, right.)

This country -- and the democratic process it's founded on -- is worth fighting for. Not next time -- now. If Bush did not earn the White House, I'm not going to reward him for stealing it "fair and square".
Around here, we finally have our media (the Nashville CBS affiliate who covered our 51 Capitals rally yesterday and our local NPR affiliate) saying the "F" word (fraud) three times on-air in the past 24 hours (and continuing to say it on their web-site.) And no one around here takes kindly to people who assume power by "F"ing us over, regardless of whether some of us were once willing to let the "F"ers kiss us ahead of time or not.

Now is the time to do everything necessary not to reward bad behavior -- even for a minute. So I hope you do have to treat a lot of hardworking DU "F"-busters with champagne. As for me, you can buy me a cup of coffee at my local diner -- and buy one for all my other yellow dog and honorable Republican neighbors who'll be happy to tell you what we do with cattle thieves around here, whether they're charming kinfolk or not. And it doesn't involve slapping them on the wrist and looking the other way. Peace, out.

[understandinglife]

139. "Besides, sir, we have no election."

Every moment, of every day, between now and 6 Jan 2005 must be dedicated to forcing a halt to the corrupt, and most certainly lethal, if allowed to proceed, assault on our American franchise of democracy.

Anything less is unpatriotic. Any hope of a 'tomorrow' for what so many have struggled during the past 2+ centuries, if we do not prevail now, is delusional.

"I'm an American, not a pro-fraud republican"

[madison2000]

142. thank you, I agree

:toast:

[Donailin]

146. excellent post.

however, we cannot raise the hell that will wake people up if it doesn't get media exposure and it won't get media exposure unless the main player speaks up. So long as Kerry, like Gore, concedes our democracy to thugs, arms dealers and drug pushers, otherwise known as the repubuplican party, we are totally fucked. The old lady in the wheelchair who couldn't vote aint about to wedge out scott peterson type stories because that story won't sell. It isn't shocking, it's not sensational, it's not deliciously scandalous, it isn't offensive to our amerikan sensibilities like say, basketball stars who have extramarital affairs or presidential appointees who have illegal alien maids, or rock stars who are pedophiles.. It's BORING, the lady in the wheelchair.

sad but true.

[Donailin]

153. as an aside to that, look at abu graib

I remember the day that story broke, and I thought, oh well this is it. They're all going down. Criminal charges for sure, we made a mockery of geneva conventions. The reality?
Sy Hersch writes an excellent book exposing far more than what the MSM presented that points right to Rummy, and Rumsfeld not only keeps his job, he gets high praises.

My only amazement is the amount of cynicism I am capable of expressing.

[procinderella]

147. Amen Fly by Night!

I'm with you!B-)

[4democracy]

148. Hi, Fly by night, I'm from TN too

[Fly by night]

197. Come to our 2nd "Gathering to Save Our Democracy", 12/19

at the Tennessee State Capital, 2:00 pm, this Sunday. Email me for details and bring EVERYONE you know. We're gonna rock the Busies' world so loud and so hard that they'll want to get off this outa control carnival ride they have created and beg us to take our country back.

See you Sunday. And all other mid-South folks are more than welcome to join us, if your state capital is not also repeating your "Capital 51" rally. Our goal is to make every Gathering 10 times bigger than the one before. We're aiming for at least 1,000 people for this Sunday.

Wanna come? Email me.

[bleever]

152. Thank you, Fly by night: I too want my damn cattle back! Now!

And let me say, Welcome to DU!!

:hi:

[SueZhope]

193. Thanks Fly by night . I loved your post

If the fraud is proven and there's enough votes for Kerry
and there is no outrage , only hours of the next Scott Peterson type case in
the MSM. Were is the justice for all? we have seen so much crap coming out of the white house and what happens they just get rewarded & promoted.

Perhaps Will is right it will take a miracle to overturn the 2004 election. I'm the kind person that believes in miracles, don’t get me wrong I'm not saying that this is going to be easy but if I don’t hold on to hope ,what else is there?

Never say never. Im keeping in open mind .

[SharonRB]

218. Great post, Fly by night

And now that I've gone over 100 posts, I guess I'm not a newbie anymore! Welcome to DU!

[SmokingJacket]

136. I have a delicious fantasy about Kerry getting in...

and I'm willing to keep that fantasy alive.

But sheesh, I'm realistic, I know what we're up against here. And the problem of the next four years withers in comparison to the potential problem of a COMPLETE LOSS OF DEMOCRACY, forever.

Election fraud totally overwhelms any individual candidate. Bush is a shark, perhaps, but election fraud is a fricking tsunami that never ends.

[sportndandy]

137. Kerry in the white house would just be a bonus

[procinderella]

143. This post inaccurate

Fraud is a criminal offense. Not a civil offense. The legislation would have no jurisdiction.

Put that in your sock!

We will prove fraud. It's being done as we speak, and doubt is creeping into the general public.

Spread the word outside the blogs. Make flyers
KERRY MAY HAVE WON OHIO.

Yes folks, don't get too excited. Calm determination will see us through and we won't drop this until the truth is out!

[bobbieinok]

150. the MOST important thing for US now = is my vote counted???

we have to look at everything in every state.....and it's a long, on-going process

after FL2000, some first time black voters were quoted as saying 'why should I take the time and trouble to vote if I can't believe my vote is counted?'

basically, democracy stands or falls on whether or not the elections can be trusted

it seems like everyone, including republicans, would be all over this

I find it absolutely incomprehensible that the democratic party did not devote 50-75% of its time after FL2000 on all aspects of this question

if you can't trust the election, why nominate candidates, conduct campaigns, or vote???

the issue would appear to be OBVIOUS

[Griffy]

155. Im in for that fight too.. oh.. and fairness in media!! nt

[bleever]

157. I have tremendous respect for William Pitt, and I disagree here.

Mr. Pitt has been one of the most eloquent and concise defenders of the principles of our democracy over the last few years.

I remember when I first discovered Truthout.org what a revelation it was, to stumble into a room with informed, passionate, articulate people as outraged as I about the incredible fraud that was the Iraq war. While the MSM had myopia, and seemed to have lost its short-term memory, Mr. Pitt and truthout never let me down as they exposed the machinations of the neocons. They helped keep me sane.

And I believe, Will, that what you are saying here is that we can't get hung up on JK, and that the issues are so much bigger.

And you are right: much bigger. This isn't about our guy versus their guy; it's about whether our system of government can be rigged, gamed, and (as Jonathon Simon put it) turned into a mere taxidermic specimen, a stuffed animal.

But I still want it all. By "all", I mean justice. I mean that the man with the most votes wins.

So I can't let go of believing that that is what will happen.

:thumbsup:

[read the law first]

162. That was a great post. Thank you William Pitt.

[Zeebo]

166. Thank you for being reasonable AND passionate! Excellent Post! n/t

[xiamiam]

167. so its ok to fraudulently hold public office?..not

I just dont get the logic...someone cheats and lies and steals their way into a job ..a public office..and gets to stay there because...because why?..it doesnt compute...there is no logic to exposing a crime and then allowing the fraudulent result to continue...its absurd to me...do burglars get to keep the loot they stole? do embezzlers get to keep the money they embezzle?
make that dom perignon please...and by the way...i love your posts and think you are a helluva lot smarter than me..but this is just plain common sense...

[bloom]

192. that's what I think, also

Even though Bush* is doing everything he can to make it appear that he is set up for his second term - new cabinet, etc. - doesn't mean we have to buy it.

[shance]

196. THANK YOU***Exactly. We are once again enabling another LIE.

You can call the elephant in the room whatever you want, you can dress it up, put it in camaflouge, throw a rug over it to try and hide it, but you know that what it all comes back to,

A lie is still a lie is still a LIE.

THIS ELECTION IS A TOTAL UNMITIGATED LIE.

The election of 2000 was a total unmitigated lie.


And lies and bullies don't get easier to knock down each time they are allowed to grow a little bigger.

[Old Mouse]

169. You aren't following the source of power

This is all about public perception. It does not matter what the letter of the law states about procedure, whomever the tide of public opinion carries will be President.

Now the the black box system of massaging election results has been forever compromised, the House and Senate must bow to an overwhelming public opinion. If we win the battle of public opinion, we win the White House.

Talking of election reform is trusting the fraud was extremely limited in scope, and that the people currently in power will somehow not violate current rules of order. Well we have watched them violate the law on a monumental scale for the last four years.

If inaugurated into legitimacy in January, the Bush administration will give you election reform like you never imagined.

[k8conant]

170. It's NOT over until it's over

I read Bush v. Gore and must put different emphasis:

"The individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for electors for the President of the United States unless and until the state legislature chooses a statewide election as the means to implement its power to appoint members of the Electoral College. U.S. Const., Art. II, §1. This is the source for the statement in McPherson v. Blacker, 146 U.S. 1, 35 (1892), that the State legislature’s power to select the manner for appointing electors is plenary; it may, if it so chooses, select the electors itself, which indeed was the manner used by State legislatures in several States for many years after the Framing of our Constitution."

OHIO REVISED CODE Title XXXV Elections details procedures.
http://onlinedocs.andersonpublishing.com/oh/lpExt.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&cp=PORC
See especially Chapter 3515 Recount; Contest of Elections
and 3515.14 Judgment of Court

"Upon completion of the trial of a contest of election, the court shall pronounce judgment as to which candidate was nominated or elected or whether the issue was approved or rejected by the voters;"

[GetTheRightVote]

181. Wait one moment please ,

1. I dontated money for what ??

2. I believe that the elected man should live in the WH period. March the streets if need be.

3. This is about democracy and the elected man takes the office period or they answer to the people. March again.

4. I will not tolerant one more stolen election, I am not about them.

5. I am no quiter because quiters never win, let me see the correct count or I march again.

6. I will not be a Bush lap dog like the first 4 years of the 1st stolen election.

7. The creation of this country was a miracle, bleed for, I too am ready to bleed for her, more then marching.

This is only beginning, it is not the end.

[IndyPriest]

173. Will, there's a TINGE of scolding...

in your post that people who are holdling out for a Kerry win are not really in this for the right reason. I think there are a lot of legitimate doors into the cause, and I want anyone to come through any door they can find.

I think for a lot of us the two "sides" of the issue - Kerry's win and election fraud - are two sides of the same coin. If we HAVE to lose one of these sides, yes, we can take a Kerry loss. But can we please not get there until we absolutely have to? Geezuz, man, Arnebeck just filed the damn suit today.

As for your setup of the issue, this is NOT solely in the hands of legislatures and the congress. It is NOT required that we mow down every one who stands in the line of succession - which is good, because the state really does frown on that sort of thing. It may be that the suit will go absolutely nowhere. I doubt that, tho. I believe Arnebeck's got the goods. So the question is: If fraud is proven before the 6th, how does that affect the election? And I'm not sure anyone knows the answer to that. We're in some new territory here. This is a road not taken in Florida 2000. So we'll see. It certainly is going to be fun to watch BushCo squirm under the intensifying light. And EVERYTHING Arnebeck is doing will help the general fraud issue.

So let's not separate the two sides of this too soon. Hell, we're just getting started!

[spooked]

174. HELL YES it's about KERRY BEING PRESIDENT!!!!

NO, IT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO ACCEPT the fact that we were robbed and defrauded YET AGAIN and just try to make it better for the next time around!

DON'T YOU SEE? THERE WILL BE NO NEXT TIME AROUND. You won't recognize this country in 4 years.

Let's just understand that these things happen, and learn from it and we'll be better prepared next time?? F*CK THAT!!

by THE PEOPLE
for THE PEOPLE

THE PEOPLE elected John Kerry President!!

This election was not an experiment to determine the best method of voting in the future! Destiny gave us the chance to elect a brave war hero who would lead us to better health care, environment, education, jobs and world peace.

IT IS STILL ABOUT JOHN KERRY...because if it's not WHY would we ever want ANYTHING more to do with voting ever again?! This country was fought for by idealists. DREAM, FIGHT, BELIEVE!!!

[Democrat Dragon]

175. It IS about getting Kerry inagurated!

Because he WON and we need to PROVE IT!

[jazzjunkysue]

176. I can live with the truth, but not a Bush crime family fix

I understand, Will, that your arguement is true. However, if those 93,000 non votes turn out to be JK's, and the recount shows the state to be his, then we owe it to muslims all over the world and our own soldiers to refuse to allow Bush to remain in office AGAIN! Remember that if the supreme court had allowed us to count the votes, Gore would have been president, no matter which way you counted that last county. If we have that happening here, we have to let Kerry serve. If a reliable person can tell me that Bush actually speaked by and Ohio chose him, then I'm with ya. Right now, I'm not sure the vote was stolen, but I'm 100% sure it hasn't been counted, yet.

[Snivi Yllom]

177. 'bout time someone of your stature threw cold water on those drunk

with Kerryisgonnabeinagurateditis.

I agree 100% current efforts should be focused on election reform period. Not the fantasy that Kerry will somehow become President, well, at least not until he runs again in 2008.

[bleever]

198. Is it really polite to use Molly Ivins' name that way?

Since she's pretty clear on her own opinions, it doesn't seem fair to be associating yours with her.

Unless there's something else we should know.

[MsConduct]

179. Amen! I'm up for the fight! And in just in case there is...

a miracle, sign me up for the champagne too.

[jdog]

182. Sorry, but what a depressing thread this has been to read!

This whole experience has been a huge roller coaster, up one minute with news that someone big has finally hit the scene, down the next as some MSM dufus looks sideways at the story and decides that, "it has no merit." Well, I'm 47 years old and I've seen them cover a whole lot more stupid things than this and guess what has no merit? Their dumbass opinion.

This may not be about getting Kerry in office, because in the bigger picture they ARE trying to steal democracy, and rape the earth and everyone on it while they are at it. But one way I see it: They are STOPPED if Kerry gets in office, and that's good enough for me. I would rather fight with everything I have NOW (even though my children no longer know what I look like without that strange computer glazed look in my eye) than go through any more time than is necessary with * in office. He's too dangerous. We cannot let this election stand!

So, maybe our campaign of emails and phone calls and protests and donations is just begining. I'm not quitting.

P.S. Let's quit waiting for MSM. Fuck 'em!

[GetTheRightVote]

183. I am riding the roller coaster too, but the other option is worst

so I am all for the ride and may it end well.

[senseandsensibility]

185. Love your passion

And you are right, especially about the media. No one can argue with the gist of what you say, but some don't seem to believe it's worth fighting for. I'll never agree with that, and I wish that our party was made up of more people like you.

[november3rd]

187. America IS A MIRACLE!

Listen, the ultimate outcome isn't in the hands of any one of us Americans. It's just up to us to do the next right thing -- with devotion to truth and liberty.

Hey, if the election investigation proves that Kerry won Ohio, the Ohio legislature, the governor of Ohio and the US Congress will be under enormous pressure to inaugurate Kerry or incite insurrection.

Bush has already lived 4 years of half champ/ half chump. The last thing anyone can stomach is another illegitimate election theft.

[IndyOp]

190. Yes, this IS about getting Kerry into the White House -- if contesting the

election on January 6th will do it. If not, then contesting is the right thing to do anyway.

Equally true response: No it IS NOT about getting Kerry into the White House it is about getting OUR White House back from the thieves who stole it!

=============================================
Remember Fahrenheit 9/11 - We Must Not Allow Them to Stand Alone

Do you remember one of the opening scenes that shows the joint meeting of congress held in January 2001 to ratify the electoral college vote? Ten African American members of the U.S. House of Representatives stood to contest the election of 2000. There was evidence of official misconduct in the election and deliberate fraud they said. One indicated that over 16,000 of her constituents in Florida had been disenfranchised.

One-by-one the members of the House stood to contest the election. Each stood alone.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=152060&mesg_id=152060>

[Angry Girl]

195. This is about IMPEACHING some people in power

With the Patriot Acts, the blatant class war being waged on the poor and middle class, the horrific coverups of scandal after scandal, and the damned complicity of the mainstream media, America is headed for nothing less than TOTALITARIANISM. There, I said it.

The GOP and dominionists aren't even bothering to be subtle about it, as they now openly talk about getting rid of the filibuster. Can anybody tell me what democracy is left in American politics at this point?

If the American people do not rise en masse to eventually impeach this corrupt, incompetent, reckless, and cruel government, we will never see a fair election in our lifetime.

After the government's flamboyant success with their weapons of mass distraction with and/or following the incidents of 9/11, do you really believe this government won't try to declare a state of war emergency to suspend the 2008 elections?

And should you doubt the complicity of the media, be sure to check out Bill Moyers's last PBS NOW expisode this week (DEC 17):

"I'm going out telling the story that I think is the biggest story of our time: how the right-wing media has become a partisan propaganda arm of the Republican National Committee," says Moyers. "We have an ideological press that's interested in the election of Republicans, and a mainstream press that's interested in the bottom line. Therefore, we don't have a vigilant, independent press whose interest is the American people."

[Oversea Visitor]

203. You got friends

The world is watching you not alone

[thanatonautos]

202. In the federal government we have one party rule and creeping fascism

So, yes, I want to see the illegitimate
President Bush thrown out of office.

If he is inaugurated in January, I will not
consider him to be legitimately elected.

His election was not legitimate the first time around,
so, he should never have been in the position
to run the second time around.

If Bush serves a second term, make no mistake
about it: it is a major failure of our democracy.
There will for a certainty be very bad consequences.

The Republic may actually already be lost at this
point. We are very possibly seeing the emergence of
something very ugly, something that we last got
a brief glance at during the heyday of the HUAC.
It's hard to say exactly what form American
fascism will take, but we are moving towards
it. It will, no doubt, seem very right and
proper to many, when the full picture is
in view.

Now, I agree with you. Fighting for election
reform is a noble cause, but the time for that
particular sort of nobility may be past.

On the local level, there are still possibilities
for relatively normal circumstances to persist for some
time, and on the local level progressives can fight
for such reforms as they may deem useful. But
in the current environment fighting for election
reform on a national level seems a very hard row
to hoe.

In the long run, one party rule of the type
practiced by the current majority will either erode
democracy down to nothing in all localities, or
it will cause the country to fracture.

I believe it was stated, in Bush v. Gore, in the
majority opinion, that the case is sui generis:

(Paraphrasing from memory)

`Because equal protection in the context of election
processes presents many difficult problems, our
consideration is limited to the present circumstances.'

It is an amazing statement, since the whole
reason for existence of the Supreme court is, precisely,
to set precedent on constitutional questions.

But one sees very quickly why the majority did not
wish to set precedent for lower court decisions
using the particular equal protection argument
that was employed. Namely, it justifies serious
questions about the ridiculous, patchwork voting
system which exists across the nation.

But here's hoping that what I write is no more
than a jeremiad.

Thanks for your outstanding efforts on the
behalf of all of us, however you may see
the cause!

[WritersBlock]

204. It's about democracy.

I sent links about the Arnebeck suit to a very good friend of mine last night, one who's very disillusioned about the (s)election results. His reply was, "So, you still think they will do anything that will undermine or change the inauguration in January?"

My answer was that although I am still not giving up hope on that completely, it's not about the inauguration at this point - it's democracy's last stand. I said that because I believe that if we don't expose the fraud in this election to the extent that the public backlash results in election reform, including auditable voting trails, we can forget any notion of ever having a valid democratic process in the future.

[AnnitaR]

205. Why post something like this and only reply ONCE?

Will, I have the utmost respect for you... but why not reply to anything in this thread that you started?

Just asking.

[Pseudofool]

207. No Kerry, no reformation

I'm not sure significant reformation of the election muk-up can happen without a visible successful, figurehead.

If it is determined that there has been foul play, and yet Kerry doesn't get the Whitehouse, the American public will lack the information in order to give the Repubs a mandate to change the system.

We already see this occuring in the lack of MSM coverage; I'm not sure definitive evidence of fraud alone will enliven MSM to give this issue a wrought, spot-lighted attention. Anything short of continual coverage will render the American public myopic and apathetic.

It is only if their is tangible, momentus results of such election fraud that MSM will enter the fray. It that can only happen if Kerry has a legitimate shot at the Whitehouse. If it becomes a question of who really won the election, that might give us some coverage, but certianly no more than 2000.

At best, with Kerry losing, we can hope that the Repubs pass a bill, say, titled "Every Vount Counts Act" where they throw some money around and replace optical scanners with hackable touch screens. There is no binding obligation that they should actually fix the problem, rather just some hegemonic bandaging will cover up nicely.

[Debbie13]

208. If Bush stays in and it was a fraud election then we have all lost

our democracy.

It's not over until GW is thrown out of the White House for the crook that he is anything short of that is not enough!

[JerseygirlCT]

209. Precisely, Will.

While I would be out celebrating in the streets should the miraculous happen and Kerry is put into office, it's not going to happen.

What MUST happen is that this fraudulent system is cleaned up. We vote on Congress and Senate seats in two years -- will we have fair elections by then? Or will it be more of the same, with the rw consolidating their power?

This is absolutely the most important fight, and anyone who doesn't get on board -- Republican or Democrat -- is showing his/her true colors and support for a dissolution of our Democracy.

[thanatonautos]

210. I would definitely be encouraged by this if anyone could name

one Republican in power who currently is willing
to say that the system is fraudulent.

As I recall Representative Conyers reported that
the response to his invitation to every Republican
member of Congress to attend the rump Judiciary hearings
`was entirely in the negative.'

Please, cheer me up. Election reform will be a lost
cause in this situation, or can you give me some real
hope?

[JerseygirlCT]

220. I don't have any hope for you

if you're taking names.

But I think there is a possibility of shaming them into it. Everyone will *say* they support free and fair elections -- then they'll need to be embarrassed and manuevered into actually acting on those words. It could be done, if we're clever, I think.

[thanatonautos]

221. That's a clever suggestion. I hope that it will work.

I worry though, that the current GOP leadership
doesn't seem to feel much shame.

I fear that, given the way they operate, they
will simply find some way of acting on the
words they will offer in support of free and
fair elections which preserves their own power.

If fraud is exposed in Ohio, sufficient
to overturn the election, before Bush is inaugurated,
I think that there is a chance to bring tremendous
public pressure to bear. If evidence only comes after
the inauguration, it will not be as effective.

We know that if that happens the story will certainly
be buried, and presented in such a way as to confuse the
issues, just as it was last time around. It's going to take
something very big to bring a lot more of the (at least)
57 million, on the losing side, into the fight for real.

[JerseygirlCT]

222. Sigh.

You're probably right. I'm desperately trying to cling to some optimism for the future of this country.

I do think if enough of the people on our side speak forcefully and publicly and often about the issue, that we can still turn the tide of the American people's support for reforming elections. It probably has to be put into the terms of self-interest: you want your vote to count, don't you? Even to the "red-staters" -- what if the situation were reversed someday -- would you want to feel unsure that the election was fair?

But, you are correct -- if enough people in the spotlight don't start jumping up and down (oratorically speaking) and making this a big issue then it most likely will get buried. It's been mostly successfully buried to date by the MSM.

Which brings me back to "sigh".

[PATRICK]

211. Good luck charm?

The last time Will gave up on JK the Iowa "miracle" occurred. If Kerry gets in I will toss all the rabbit's feet and horse shoes and wilted four leaf clovers into the trash bin. Then I will wait breathlessly for a crisis to come along and Will to throw in the towel.

But kidding aside, the fight for democracy is bigger than candidate, party or nation. This is a profoundly moral struggle with more than plain American values and rights at stake. Lives depend on this, something it might have been prudent for the DNC to have remembered all these feckless years.

Heading for the hills in the Biblical sense is no longer a global option.

I suggest media attacks, outside the media pamphleteering etc, finding people to remove the hacks and DINO's from all offices having to do with the vote and getting deep and in your face into the local party organization(or other parties, depending how locked in suicidal struggle your local Dems may be), building strong and expanding active issue coalitions, forging more grass roots political muscle that we will NOT submissively lend to submissive party regulars. The struggle for the Internet might challenge our creativity. So what they try to define away blogging? It will just come back as something else.
Chipping at the pillars actions, severing roots. Anything to destroy the effectiveness of advertising in mainstream electronic media and dry it up. The truth is an abandoned weapon lying on the field. Let's take it up and do our best.

Nil desperandum.

[Lisabtrucking]

213. I don't think it's about Kerry, I know it's about our democracy.

How can we correct this crime if they control the courts, Senate , house and the media?
They have the power right now, and as long as there are people out there who ignore the corruption we are doomed.

[WilliamPitt]

214. PLEASE SEE MY REPLY THREAD TO THIS HERE:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=153890&mesg_id=153890

I posted this and went out to dinner last night. I was amazed at how big it became; if I replied to everyone, this'd have 500 posts. I started a new thread, therefore.

[Chimpanzee]

216. Just be sure you're speaking only for yourself!

This is simple. Fraud occured and the results of the election were manipulated to ensure a Bush victory. We need to expose the fraud, and if that means Kerry is proven the rightful winner, he must be the president. Otherwise there will be some nasty riots in DC. I will find a way to go there myself. Correcting the fraud is most important, longterm, but if we don't expose it now it will be too late. The pukes will have us right where they want us.

[Griffy]

223. kick