I think most people, and that includes myself

[fshrink]

until yesterday, do not realize the magnitude of what's going on, I should say going "down". The Ohio recount is not just a re-calibration of the vote. It has gigantic implications, including very severe accountability for several very high-ranking people. On the surface it might be presented as a mere episode in the electoral saga, which media unanimously do. But just under the surface, it is the reactionary very skin which is at stake. And, just like last time, a full-blown constitutional crisis. Unfortunately nobody in a position of real power is ready to fully endorse that. And nobody will. No top media. No top politician. No one. Kerry just did the minimum required to preserve his dignity.
And I'm sorry to say that, in spite of all the tenderness I may feel for people who throw their little stone, we're not up to the challenge. We just cannot debunk and corner specialists of dis-information, dissimulation, treachery, theft, intimidation and blackmail, all endowed with massive financial back-up, with access to anything they need and who have carefully planned and arranged the whole deal, probably several months, or years, prior to the "election". The power is not to the people, the river is raging downstream.
I'm just one of the by-standers, looking at the muddy waters tearing up the land. The dam fissured in 2000 and now it's gone.
I know that the people will prevail. But in ways that we can't predict now. And, like so many, I will not forget the betrayal.

[IAMREALITY]

1. With All Due Respect

"we're not up to the challenge"

Bullshit.

Speak for yourself.

Many of us are, will be, and will always fight until democracy once again prevails.

No one will stop us

No one will bring us down.

We will win.

With or without you or any other's who claim 'we can't do it'

[fshrink]

10. I never speak for anyone but myself.

And I cherish your fire.

[EFerrari]

23. Fshrink, I agree with you in this respect, this has been traumatizing

and as I said before, people dealing with trauma have characteristic responses. Not all of them particularly effective.

This is huge. Has implications not only for our leadership in 35 ways, but also for state, county and local elections.

One of the outcomes for me has been to realize, this is a big damn country. If my grocer accross the street has his building go up in flames, I can run over and help. If the BOE in Greene Co try to torch the ballots, I can't.

[jamboi]

29. Agreed. Where I agree w/ the original post is that most people didn't

realize and still don't realize what is really up here. So when it dawns on the masses we'll see conversions.

[BamaBecky]

78. just out of curiosity...when do you think that might happen? n/t

[nashville_brook]

67. right you are Reality!

we have the wind at our back... we are pissed... we will not give up.

[LiberalAndProud]

2. We must prepare ourselves for 2008.

We need to assume that the election will be stolen. When the exit polls don't match next time, we hit the streets by the millions.

We got crowds of tens and hundreds this time. We need crowds of tens of thousands next time. We need a two-pronged attack next time. GOTV again and hard. And we need to be prepared for another dishonest election; be ready with signs, slogans, dates and places. With our foot soldiers prepared to hit the streets NOW!

If we choose to stay and fight. We need to be ready for 2008.

==================================

And in the meantime we need to work hard and long hours and never shut up about getting a verifiable vote with transparent, open code.
No one will ever convince me that Diebold, ES&S and Triad would refuse to provide the code if it were a condition of the contract.

[RaulVB]

4. Sorry is now or never. Last chance for the US democratic forces (n/t)

[Twist_U_Up]

11. yep

the writing is on the wall

[alittlelark]

21. Now or never.

[pointsoflight]

28. Agree, it's now or never. n/t

[TrustingDog]

34. true, now or never - no more chances, no more of the same waiting...

for some hero to solve it all.

the heros are You.

[Old Mouse]

52. Now or never n/t

[momzno1]

6. you don't understand

right after the elections the media decided that they would not release the exit polls next time until further into the night. You see, they will "fix" the little problem of the exit polls in the future, and we will have no way of knowing if things were accurate or way off.

It's Now.... or Never

[econut]

18. Why doesn't the left perform exit polls?

If we can't trust that the Republicans are going to act in a fair way then why can't we just do the statistical sampling ourselves. The Democrats and the third parties can chip in and fund it. Involve Moveon and the other 529s - yeah there would be concerns of impartiality from the right, but what do we have to loose????

[newyawker99]

60. Hi econut!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[European Socialist]

14. 2008

THERE will be no 2008 without major fraud revelations acted upon by the Government. We need a blue state AG like Elliot Spitzer to make a break through in one of those padded states.

[4democracy]

16. that is what we said last time

[KoKo]

36. By 2008 there won't be anything left worth fighting for, methinks....

They will have taken it all..

[SoCalDemGrrl]

39. 2008 will be too late, we must prevail NOW

[witchhazl]

42. Next time there won't BE any exit polls. eom

[anamandujano]

53. "this time" is already next time

[blokenblue]

54. Unfortunately

They won't make the same mistakes their technique will have improved considerably by 2008. Indeed just as we are hard at work so are they.

[Eye_on_prize]

57. Exit polls 'next time' ? i doubt it.

they've been already thoroughly trashed as 'unreliable' in US (now conventional wisdom for future US elections - thanks to MSM), while held up as our standard for 'good democracy' in Ukraine -- and during same 3 week time frame!@$%

No wonder alot of liberals need counseling right now -- suffering from cognitive dissonance in the extreme.

If BushCo steals this election, and gets away with it, there probably won't be a 'next time' for real democracy this country for a very long time...let's not kid ourselves.

So who is your pick for 2012 to put up against Arnold?

[BernieBear]

75. I KNEW the election would be stolen this time...

How could you NOT know? How DUMB could the Kerry team be? It was obvious. To say we should be ready for 2008 (which of course I agree with), just makes me mad though, because we sure as sh*t should have been ready for 2004.

WHY WEREN'T WE?????????

[IndyPriest]

76. If fraud isn't fixed, 2008 won't matter!

We can have as many people on the streets as we like, run whomever we like. It won't make any difference BECAUSE a Rove clone will always be able to hack the vote from inside the WH or wherever UNLESS the SOURCES of fraud are discovered and taken out.

Now (as long as "now" means the next two years; this is going to take a while) or never.

Watergate was huge for the country. But it was a cake walk compared to this.

[Guarionex]

3. i understand the sentiment...

and if you ask me...if shit goes sour come January 6th...most democrats won't have the guts to crack some policemen's heads in a riot...like they do in other countries...

and frankly...if we're not up to mixing it up with cops holding us back from storming the Congress and White House...then we're NOT up to the challenge...


however, if we are...then get ready...because for good or bad, we are going to HAVE to take to the streets...somewhere along the line I fully expect the peaceful aspect of the fraud movement to fizzle...so get ready. It's coming...

and in case someone is wondering...I've cracked at least 3 cops heads in protests in my life...I'm not sitting on the floor while you sick dogs on me...

[fugazi 23]

8. careful what we wish for

Hmmm.... if we engage in violent struggle with the right... i think we lose big. I dont have a gun... but about 60 million rednecks do... just a thought

[MarkusQ]

20. Then get them on your side

1. Lying, cheating, and stealing are not popular with the moral values crowd.
   
2. Most Republicans realize (or can be prompted to realize) that if it was stolen for them this time, it could easily be stolen against them next time. In fact, that's likely, in that putting a "safe" Democrat into office would be a good way to discredit the accusations of rigging
   
3. Most "rednecks" do not trust computers
   
4. Most rednecks do not trust corporate interests
   
5. Etc.
   

This is not Republicans vs. Democrats, it's the people vs. corruption.

--MarkusQ

[dmac]

31. But don't forget my friend

that WE are the ones they believe are lying and cheating (and trying to steal) from THEIR beloved President. It's nice to think about joining forces and both (rather all 3or4) parties fighting together for democracy. But the powers that be realized long ago how that would usurp their own strength and the media machine has been tailored for creating division ever since. And they have done a mighty fine job of it.

Also don't forget the media has painted us with the immoral paintbrush and association with us is frowned upon.

Yes, a bit sarcastic, but also believe this to some extent.

[MarkusQ]

40. Ah, who to you mean by "we"?

Because, as it turns out, I am a Republican. Have been, all my adult life. I plan to stay a Republican, because I differ with you folks on many issues, and probably always well.

But one thing we do agree on: lying and cheating are wrong.

He's not "my beloved President," no matter how much he wraps himself in my flag and claims to represent my party. He's no conservative by any definition I've ever heard, and his "moral values" don't match any I grew up with.

I may think the Democrats have a lousy understanding of economics, and I don't think they're above stealing an election (e.g. 1960, or even Kerry vs. Dean last spring) but on this particular issue, at this particular moment, I trust the Neo-cons less than I trust...anyone.

--MarkusQ

[Nordic]

45. well I'm glad you don't trust the neocons, but

I don't trust most republicans, either. You seem to be an honest one. I don't see many of those.

What I see is pure and utter hypocrisy and an "ends justifies the means" mentality where they don't CARE if the election is stolen as long as it steals THEIR guy.

They don't care about torture in Iraq as long as it's THEIR guys doing it.

In fact, they don't care about anything at ALL as long as their guy is in power.

They have no moral values whatsofuckingever.

That's where I think you're way off the mark.

If you can prove to me that most republicans are honest and don't actually believe in the "ends justifies the means", well I'd sure like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but why the HELL did they vote for Bush?

Why don't they realize their party has been hijacked and kick the crooks out?

That's a BIG BIG question for me, and I have absolutely no respect for republicans because of this.

[MarkusQ]

49. Ok, one more time...

I keep posting this point which is (to me at least) obvious:

Have you actually tried talking to people without getting red-blue confrontational? Or are you making these statements based on the MSM and the "freepers" or talk radio? Because I think these sources of information may be tainted.

You ask, for example "why the HELL we voted for Bush", to which I reply "what makes you think we did?" Part of the reason I'm finding it so easy to get my fellow Republicans up to speed on the election fraud issue is that most of us know that a lot of us (the fiscal conservatives, the military buffs, and a lot of the life-is-sacred croud, etc.) DID NOT vote for Bush. So we're already suspicious.

You ask "why don't we realize our party has been hijacked and kick the crooks out" to which I respond "gee, why don't you notice that your country has been hijacked and kick the crooks out"? Maybe because they used the same tricks to gain control of the party (e.g., compare the 2000 attack ads against McCain with the 2004 ads against Kerry) as they're now using on the country.

You say that you have no respect for Republicans because of these questions. I beg to differ. I think you have no respect for Republicans for the same reason that most Republicans have no respect for Democrats. The great "uniter" and his team realize that it's much easier to steal a close & hotly contested race, and therefore have hyped us into turning against each other instead of against them.

--MarkusQ

[Nordic]

50. I'm basing what I say about republicans based on

the republicans I know personally, most of whom are either fundamentalist whackjobs who seriously don't care what their "leaders" do as long as they're "anti-abortion" and purported to be "Christians" (their definition).

If they're not that, they are a bunch of greedy amoral "everybody's doin' it, so get your piece of the pie" types. These are, to me, the worst, because they're not stupid and they know better. They seem teo have an "if you can get away with it, it's okay" attitude about pretty much everything. And they seem to have the "let's beat up the liberals because we can" attitude as well so common in the media.

I know a lot of them, almost everybody in both my families (mine and my wifes) are republicans, and they are one of these two types.

My Dad used to be an honest one, then he married a fundie woman and is so whipped by her he says whatever she wants him to say. It's sad.

Kudos to you and the ones that you know. I wish there were a LOT more of you. I used to actually respect the republican point of view because of my father, but there only seem to be about a dozen of them across the country now.

[MarkusQ]

62. How to talk to your Republican family & friends

It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

Bush is no Christian he's just using them. Point that out. Talk to the right-to-lifers about all the thousands of kids killed in Iraq--the same sort of kids we see starving in the TV ads, but now we don't need to feed 'em 'cause our "smart bombs" blew them up. Thou Shalt Not Kill? And what about our own children, sent into a war based on a lie, under trained and under armored. I'm sure Christ would be behind that.

If you have to convince a fiscal conservative, I guess the thing to do is buy them a subscription to a newspaper, or teach them to read. I doubt you'll need to do either though.

The "Yuck, yuck, as long as we win" crowd is harder, and took me the longest to crack. My best line? After getting them to admit the trickery & agree that the ends justify the means, I sigh and say "Well, congratulations I guess. I suppose you've got some way to keep the convicted felons who're stealing elections for you from stealing 'em for people who out bid you next time. At least, I hope for your sake you do." And walk away.

--MarkusQ

[m berst]

58. well said

I agree with your opinions expressed here, and your observations match mine completely. I have had a much easier time explaining the threat to my Republican friends than to Democrats, ironically.

By turning the election issue into a partisan Republican hating exercise, I am afraid that Democrats are hurting the cause rather than helping it. The key to stopping the people who are stealing the country is to work with Republicans. The problem transcends partisan politics.

[dmac]

80. I totally agree with your final assessment. eom

[dmac]

77. Apologies MarkusQ

You are right - I am getting bad about lumping people together and I know that is wrong. There are many different shades of Dems and Reps and I believe you are right - the Neo-Con is a different animal. But most conservatives do love Mr. Bush - and having both friends and family members who do, I have to always be on guard to be sensitive in discussions not to do what I did here. I think let lose here to get out some of the frustration I have to suppress most of the time. But I certainly didn't mean to lump everyone together.

I really do hate this partisanship but it seems both sides are equally guilty of it these days. For the most part we stand worlds apart (at least in my experience) on most issues and with some of the issues today (which I view as crises) it has been difficult not to become even more divided and passionate about the values we hold dear. I also think the media bashing that the liberals have taken since the election has provoked the more rebellious side in me. Today it feels even more "us against them", than it did before the election - with "them", being the only ones with any redeeming qualities. this tends to make me cranky to say the least and extremely defensive (and critical) - all bad things, I realize. And I think once the current political climate stabilizing one way or another, this would be a worthwhile place to put some energy into change. Again, apologies.

[MarkusQ]

84. Apology accepted, though unneeded. :) We're all on the same side. (n/t)

[IndyOp]

33. It's the people vs. corruption -- go MarkusQ -- you got it right!

If they just understood what was going on they would not stand for it!

Truth, justice, freedom -- these are THE values that the REAL people on the right get all excited about. The good people that are on the right are being *used* by the super-powerful who string them along like good like slaves.

:bounce:

[Nordic]

44. Wow, you are SO far off the mark with that I'm in shock

"Lying, cheating, and stealing are not popular with the moral values crowd"

To that I say BULLSHIT.

You're telling me that right-to-lifers that want to make heroes out of guys who bomb abortion clinics and murder doctors have any compunction about lying, cheating and stealing?

Hell no. To them the ends justifies the means.

Sorry, but you are WAY WAY off the mark on that one.

[m berst]

59. careful with saying "them" Nordic

You are characterizing an entire group of people by the actions of some of the people in that group.

There are many Republicans who do not want to see tyranny. There are many Republicans who do not support bombing clinics.

Don't buy into the propaganda from the Bush crowd and from Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. They want us to believe that they have more support than they do. It helps them keep power if they can get us to demonize half of the population.

[Nordic]

71. like I said, and I guess I have to say it again --

I base what I know about republicans based on the ones in my life, in my family, and the ones I know personally.

Yes, I know there are a few honest ones, but they are few, and I'll say this again:

If there are honest ones, why do they keep voting for Bush? Why don't they speak out (I only see Chuck Hegel doing so, and he's not in my family) Most of the ones I know, and the ones I see, think that Bush is great and as long as they're beating the "liberals", everything is just peachy.

[m berst]

79. two points

First, as you acknowledge, you are basing your view on your own limited personal experience which may therefore not fully be representative. Secondly, could it not be that the way we approach others has something to do with how they react and how we then see them?

You say "if there are honest ones, why do they keep voting for Bush?" Good question, but I think you may be asking it after you have already made up your mind about the answer. You are assuming that no one who is an honest person could vote for Bush.

Here is the problem - how could an honest person have voted for Kerry? When Republicans I know ask me why I did, they do so knowing that I am opposed to the war, opposed to free trade, in favor of universal health care, cognizant of and very worried about the coming fascist tyranny, opposed to the Patriot act and on and on. Kerry was not campaigning on any of those issues which I not only consider the most important issues for me in this election cycle, but rather that I think are the most important issues facing the country in my lifetime. So how could I, as an honest person, vote for Kerry? I did, because as bad as he is on the issues, I hoped that it would be a step in the right direction. That is precisely the reason that people I know voted for Bush. This tells me that many who vote Republican are actually much more progressive than many who voted for Kerry.

The idea that all goodness and light, all wisdom and intelligence are over on one side of the fence - the Democratic side - is so ludicrous that it surprises me how prevalent the notion is.

If the Bush administration is everything that people have said it is here, then how on earth can the response the Democratic party made to the threat be seen as adequate? How is it that we voted for something so fundamentally and undeniably at odds with our own views, on all but a mere handful of hot button issues that were created by the right wing propaganda mill to begin with? Where is our claim to superiority? Are we so certain that our words and actions are not contributing just as much to the system as the words and actions of the Republicans?

I am not so dead certain about this, and I believe that were we certain we would not be in the mess we are in. In the game of "let's have the whole society go crazy" the Democratic party is playing an essential role and we are supporting it and contributing to it. How is our stupidity any better than that of the Bush voters?

[Nordic]

82. I have the utmost respect for your point of view

and I always read your posts carefully.

I believe you are a true peacemaker.

I don't think that I am.

Perhaps it's my situation in life. I have deliberately removed myself from people who share the republican point of view. I live in a town, and work in a business, where almost everybody is a democrat. I prefer it that way. My family members live elsewhere and we have all agreed to not discuss politics anymore, after the last few months showed that we could not do it successfully.

I wish we could all discuss these things rationally and thoughtfully, and maybe some people, somewhere, can.

I don't think that we can stop Bushco and the media at this point, through any means other than some kind of force.

Just my opinion. I hope I'm wrong.

[m berst]

85. opposite experience from mine

Thanks for the kind words, Nordic. I consider you to be a great asset to DU as well.

After decades living in a heavily Democratic area and working almost entirely with liberals and left wing people I spent the last few years in a very Republican area with mostly Republican clients. I am not downplaying the problems you describe, because I have my own horror stories from the last year. In fact, it got so bad that it led me to look for ways to transcend the madness and to think of new ways for confronting the crisis. I don't have the answers, but I do find it alarming to watch the country descend into hatred. It seems to me that we can be strong on principle without being hateful toward those whom we identify as being associated with the opposition.

I understand withdrawing and limiting contact, as I have done the same thing. For me this is more a matter of gaining control over my life, as it is seeing them as the enemy. What we are often up against is intrusive bullying, and we have a right to be free from that. Looking back, I think that this bullying has been gradually escalating so that it wasn't noticeable, but it has just permeated the society and influences almost all of our relationships and transactions.

So I was not trying to minimize the problem, rather to suggest that it may be worse and more serious than we think.

[MarkusQ]

64. The problem with the way we get news today...

...is that it leads us to judge groups by their most extreme members. Did you know most Muslims don't agree with terrorism? Did you know that most Americans don't think we should use high tech weapons to blow up women and children by remote control? Did you know that most "right-to-lifers" don't support killing doctors? Did you know that most Americans don't think Bush is doing a good job? And that it looks like the majority of the people who voted at least thought that they had voted against him? In 2000, and again in 2004?

What, you didn't know that? Didn't the MSM remember to tell you? How odd...they're generally so good about giving a fair and balanced treatment of the news.

--MarkusQ

P.S. The problem is, you are being told that they are immoral hypocrites that won't hesitate to lie, cheat or steal, and they are being told that you are immoral hypocrites that won't hesitate to lie, cheat and steal. Both sides are being told to distrust the other so (I'm assuming) they won't team up against the people who really lie, cheat, and steal, every day in every way.

[Guarionex]

22. guys...

don't buy into the "they got the guns" we got nothing stuff...

trust me...the Rednecks don't want a conflict with us...they don't win either way...if they provoke a rapid "fascisization" of the country through defeating us, then America's place in the world will fall and we will become a country ruled by incompetent rednecks...our economy and politics, culture, etc. would fall...and probably other countries would intervene...

and that's the worst case...the more realistic case is that we have the industry and the will to fight...not all liberals are glasses wearing pussies...

I'll fight them.

[Chimpanzee]

27. umm - you forgot about the nukulur devices

[Nordic]

46. I hear ya. These people will continue until somebody STOPS them

Like most evil people, they will continue doing what they are doing until somebody physically stops them.

Who's gonna do that? Us? Or the rest of the world?

It's gotta be somebody or else they're gonna take over the whole planet.

Prove to me that I'm wrong. What will stop them? Laws? No. Decency? No. International outrage? No. The media? No.

I ask you. What is going to stop them?

Force. Nothing else.

[Chimpanzee]

26. Good one!

But if you have an ouzi you don't have to worry about a thing (unless of course your kids find them and shoot themselves, their friends and other innocent bystanders.

[Nordic]

47. are you scared of rednecks?

because I'm not. I grew up with them. I have them in my family. They are bullies, that is all.

I say let's go for it and get it over with.

What are you, some kind of pussy? What are you willing to fight for, anyway?

[newyawker99]

61. Hi fugazi 23!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Norquist Nemesis]

72. Don't think rednecks would stand for being lied to

any more than the rest of the citizens of the country...especially when it comes to presidential elections.

Yes, they want 'their guy' to win. Yes, there is deeply divisive partisanship occurring. And yes, there are exceptional operatives manipulating everything from the message down to the voting box.

But, I believe...somehow...every citizen wants to know there is integrity in the vote they cast regardless of who they voted for.

[seito]

9. Ummm I don't think so... n/t

[Old Mouse]

55. don't talk of such tactics

Do you like stress positions?

Rove has been ahead of us every step of the way. I'm sure he expects and has prepared for violent street protests.

[seito]

5. Kerry did more than

the "minimum required to preserve his dignity."

The minimum would be a general statement that we need to count every vote, perhaps followed by legal and monetary intervention as needed. John Kerry is more visibly involved in this every day. There is an active campaign of defeatism going on. Do not buy into it.

The people will expose the truth, and we will report it. My personal belief is that John Kerry is fully involved in this investigation and will continue to be involved in it, regardless of the outcome of the election. If you have a different belief, I will not hold it against you.

We would all like to see our President-Elect on the television admonishing the thugs and thieves. However, exposing the truth, and prosecuting those responsible is more important that media coverage.

JMHO

Keep the Faith and Spread the Word

No Retreat No Surrender

[jamboi]

7. Agreed! n/t

[European Socialist]

19. He doesn"t have to be Sore Loserman but....

with 20 years in Senate, and 40% of elected officials democratic, he should be getting better results.

[Griffy]

24. the Nay sayers will join us in the final hour...

when the truth is out and the tinfoil hats are gone, they will stand by us in the streets and say "thank you".

[seito]

35. I know it

People are so desperate for that Hollywood moment. THEN, they will join us in the streets.

Today I stood on the steps of the State Capitol and held a sign that read Democracy is not a spectator sport, while the electors were inside casting their votes for John Kerry and John Edwards. My only hope is that someone saw that sign and might take a little bit more interest in preserving what so many sacrificed for.

This is our country. People have died for the freedoms that we take for granted. We do not need a Hollywood moment to take this country back, we need to do it ourselves.

[texpatriot2004]

12. What clicked "yesterday?" What happened that caused your

eureka moment yesterday? What is it that made you realize the importance just yesterday?

[fshrink]

15. The magnitude of

what's really at stake. If the thing pans out, in effect, the whole entire reactionary elite is going down the drain for the foreseeable future. They fight for their very lives, not a few points on a scale or a change in presidency. Their very livelihood and existence. And "they" hold all the power you can dream of.

[texpatriot2004]

25. Was there an event yesterday that helped you realize this?

Or was it just a matter of thinking about things and coming to the realization about the importance of this? I mean, what was it that convinced you yesterday? Something external or something internal? When did you begin following the problems with this election?

[fshrink]

30. It's feeling the hope on this forum

after it was heard that Kerry's lawyer had stepped in. This way we have of focusing on smaller aspects close to us while losing sight of the other's big picture. I suddenly realized what was really at stake. What the other side had to lose. And therefore that the reactionaries would (probably had) effectively put everything they have, which is, well... pretty much everything available, in the balance. Stones vs. machine guns. The antes have been jacked up so high that the issue is not even the election per se, but what would happen after...

[jamboi]

32. I laughed when I read KO's comment tonight about how both JK and

Blackwell were trying soooo hard to pretend there's nothing at stake when its obvious there's everything at stake.

[seito]

38. lol!!!

That was funny. It is so true.

[Nordic]

43. we all knew Bushco was gonna try something .....

we just didn't know exactly what.

Turns out he was ahead of everybody.

The way evil people get so far ahead is they literally do the unthinkable. And that's how they keep doing what they do, is because people CONTINUE to think "nah, they wouldn't actually do THAT, would they?"

But they do.

It CAN happen here.

Bush has done the unthinkable. And because most people don't WANT to believe it, they simply won't hear about it.

Remember, the first rule of any con is to tell people what they want to hear.

[idealista]

48. wouldn't surprise me if Bush exploded an A-bomb right here n/t

[myschkin]

69. Common,

the good always win ;-)

[Nordic]

83. the good always win, but only after much fighting and struggle

and often bloodshed.

The victims of the evil might not feel so great about the "eventual" triumph of good. After all, they're dead.

Trying to minimize the number of victims is what the fight is all about.

[seabeyond]

13. you are one more person aware fshrink

and if you became aware just a day or two ago, then i am going to have to say a few more did

i knew nov 2 about 8 at night. maybe a little later for sure, when they had the reporters come to the yellow room. had an idea late afternoon, but as soon as i saw bush adn his face and his not being able to look in hte eye of anyone, i knew.

he stole it

think how all us that knew, really in our gut knew way back then. yet we havent given up. and wont

you are one more into the crowd. pass it on

[Catamount]

17. Because soooo much is at stake,

I think that Kerry and others who have insider's points of view, are working silently beneath the surface.
They don't want America to be the laughing stock of the world any more than it already is with * as our prez.
One way or another-this regime is going down.


Have faith

[seito]

37. It is that important

This is not a time for media games. What is happening in Ohio is real. This is not the time for a Coulter - O'Liely feeding frenzy. When this goes public there will be no room for spin.

Keep the Faith

No Retreat No Surrender

[Nordic]

41. Read Amy Goodman's book and ask yourself --

what makes her keep at it? Why is she still fighting?

She's seen some serious, heavy shit go down in the name of corporate america. Not here, in other countries. She was in the middle of a massacre.

She still gets out of bed every day and fights.

I don't know how she does it, but she's an inspiration.

Your silence will not protect you.

[Old Mouse]

51. I am usually a calm person

but this makes me furious.

On 9/11 I watched Bush give his first speech to the nation. I noticed how the children that should have been taken back to their parents at a time of war, were lined up behind the President. knowing a little about staging and PR I couldn't help but notice their placement: loosely tall to short, but with a complete ethnic mix, lined up behind the president like props or one of his fake backdrops, and I knew, I knew that they had planned for this. It was a staged photo-op. They knew what was coming and had chosen the best place for the maximum emotional impact to address the world. I don't know how much they knew, or participated in the attacks, but I then understood the stakes they were playing for.

Denial is a choice. Reality s out in the open for those who choose to look. If you are just now realizing how corrupt and dangerous this cartel of traitors are, then it was your choice to read editorials rather than news stories, to avoid disagreeable news and to ignore obvious contradictions in official statements. People on the inside of this administration, the CIA, the Pentagon, and the FBI have been risking their careers leaking us warnings of illegalities for the past four years.

We fight now or face Gitomization. That "people will one day prevail" is the same complacent attitude that their empire is built on. If you think that somehow this situation will just rectify itself you have not yet successfully grasped the magnitude of the coming change.

The people in Ohio need your time, your money, but most importantly your support. They are giving their time and energy, possibly even putting themselves in danger fighting the greatest challenge Democracy has ever known.

If you cannot give, money, time, or positive support, please get out of the way.

[Sideways]

56. Oh Yeah! There Is No Future NONE Without A Fight Today.

Fight Club. Take it to heart or perish.

[neversaynever]

63. agreed...Win now or lose forever. n/t

[Nordic]

70. "Denial is a choice" Ain't that the truth!!

[Razorback_Democrat]

65. No! Fascism is creeping its way into our society and by 2008 it will be

TOO LATE!

We must keep fighting until we win.

First they laugh at you
Then they fight you.
Then you win!

[nashville_brook]

66. amen razorback!

it's starting to get good!

[myschkin]

68. We can

Do something!

Or do you want stare at it like people in the fashist-years of the 30'ies?

Passivity is our dead.

[Tripmann]

73. Just one question....

...to the 'concentrate on 2008' bunch among us. What the fu€k is wrong with fighting now and THEN concentrating on 2008. Fight till January, its only next month, Election 2008 is nearly 4 years away and will still happen regardless. Theres plenty of time to concentrate on that AFTER this situation has run its course.

WE CAN DO BOTH EVERYONE!

Tripmann

[Quakerfriend]

74. We can

and we MUST!

[neek]

81. I'm new

and have only posted a handful of times.
I have been watching this unfold since Nov. 2nd when I stayed up all night and was DUMBFOUNDED when the thing turned on a dime.

I live in a college town that went 79% for Kerry. Nobody here knows about the FRAUD and if they do they don't believe it ! I am trying so hard to forward all articles and studies and reports to everyone and they all think I'm crazy and obsessed. The MSM has SO MUCH power. No one believes unless it's reported on TV.

I'm so disgusted with what has happened. I kept telling everyone that the only way B*sh could win would be by cheating.
When I said that I never fully realized what it would feel like to have that actually happened because I believed in the American people and couldn't fathom how this man could be re-elected after all he's done.

On a lighter note, there were two AP articles in our local paper today- one about the RNC guy indicted on phone jamming charges here in my state- and the other about the electors voting in Ohio yesterday. That article did go into some (but not enough) detail about the fraud and irregularities. It was the first time I've seen it in my paper- so I thought maybe this is the beginning of something good possibly happening.

Anyway, I want to end by thanking you all for giving me a place to come and read things my heart relates to. I'll post rarely, but I'm reading everything....