Realistically speaking, what is our best hope?

[garybeck]

I've been thinking out all the possible scenarios, and it's going to be tough, with the Republicans controlling virtually everything from the counts, recounts, state legislatures, state supreme courts, US congress, and the US supreme court.

Here are a few scenarios that I can think of that would result in Kerry taking office.

1) Not just one, but several senators stand up and contest the Ohio electors. This would likely be based on either the recount showing a different result than the electors (not likely now that we know the recount is fixed), or heresay evidence of fraud. I say heresay because there are no hearings involved in this scenario. If such senator(s) did stand up, this would cause a vote in the house and senate on the matter. obviously both are Repub controlled. The only possible way out of this is if some of the repub reps vote against Bush. In order for this to happen there would have to be a well established discontent with the direction Bush is leading us within the party. Either that or such a huge public outcry that reps would have to vote for their constituency over their party. I don't think either of these are likely and IMHO the "senators contesting the electors" plan is a dead end.

2) Arnebeck's lawsuit bypasses the electoral process and goes directly to the US Supreme court, and his case lays out strong evidence of illegal activity in regards to voter suppression and/or fraud. It's then in the hands of the US Supreme court, which could be interesting. Keep in mind Renquist is very ill. Also, Gore v Bush was a 5-4 ruling, so only one out of 5 people would have to give up partisanship in the name of democracy, perhaps had a change of heart in their support of Bush over the last 4 years, or who knows, maybe they have a grandchild or two who would be drafted if Bush continues his warmongering.

3) The recount turns up questionable results and enters the courts. It would head straight to the Ohio supreme court and then to the US Supreme court. The only way out of this is outlined in #2. I list this separately because the means to get there is the recount, not the lawsuit.

All in all, I think that the Supreme Court obviously offers the most realistic chance of changing the election. It is much more possible for one out of 5 people to stop liking Bush and stand up for democracy (that's supposed to be their job), than for a majority of Congressmen and Senators to break party lines and oust their own leader.

SO, I say our only hope is in the Supreme Court. First we have to get there. I say, after inaguration day, we can worry about fixing the system. Until then we have to focus on getting this case to the Supreme Court. Not that we can necessarily make that happen. Arnebeck is the key to getting there. If we do get there, I pray that just one Judge sees the horrible mistake they made 4 years ago, or is at least just willing to look at the facts objectively.

-gb

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[Goldeneye]

4. I like the way you think.

[garybeck]

5. by "best hope" I mean...

... that it has the best chance of actually happening, not the "best thing that we could hope for"

I like your answer if the latter was the question :)

[corbett]

9. My Kind Of Dream!

I tend to shy away from wishing death on anyone but considering the innocent deaths which they have caused since taking office, I'll make an exception in the name of the planet.

[greatscott15]

12. We must rise above the "slim"

Folks: comments about AF1 colliding with AF2 should be pulled by the moderators. I am not happy about the last 4 years or the 2004 election. However, we must rise about wishing for our president and VP to be killed in a plane crash along with a TV network. How petty can we be? This is why people think we are kooks and won't vote democratic anymore.

It's time to move on. No one is ever going to prove their was significant and coordinated fraud. I have no doubt their was fraud, but if we look too deep, we may see some on our side too. Even if some fraud could be proven, so what? You would have to have Bush on tape telling Rove explicitly how to commit the fraud. Even then, I am not sure they would impeach Bush.

If we don't start focusing on what is important to the majority of Americans right now, and turn toward 2008, we're going to be having these same discussions in the middle of Nov08. We better just get over it and move on. If not, I am afraid we will continue to loose.

[Name removed]

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[Old Mouse]

2. great topic

I think a variation of #1 is our best bet.

The administration, and the Republican controlled House and Senate have proved willing to use the letter of the law to an extreme advantage. Additionally the Ohio SOS seems to flaunt the law with impunity.

I believe only an outraged public can force Congressmen and Senators into a rejection of the election or impeachment. This will have to be a very powerful explosion of mass rage, as it is probable many on the hill are involved, and will have to balance their level of cooperation against their likelihood of discovery.

I think if the public attention does not turn to this issue before inauguration, the executive branch will find a way to refuse to answer to the authority of the judicial branch.

[PATRICK]

3. Hope unseen

Hopes like we had in 2000 are not personally hopes for me and I had no hope then. No system game that keeps conceding and running up against hurdles with media suppression of the truth is 'hopeful".

My only hope remains things yet unseen and called into play. A massive scandal that the campaign is very ready to ride into the WH, replete with video, tapes, witnesses of crimes of the highest order. Even there, we already have so many smoking guns it looks like Waterloo, but we can't tell whose side is winning. Yet the sound on the boob tube is tumbling tumbleweeds, the disinterested RW going about its ravaging and looting with loud lies.

If the candidate never intended to fight in any sense recognized by dedicated Democrats, that is a hope gone up in the smoke of those guns.

We need Kerry or nothing will work outside of an intense criminal proceedings charging in like the US cavalry. If Kerry has nothing on his plate, nothing we haven't seen already, it is likely far too late.

[corbett]

10. Our Massachusetts Centrist To The Rescue!

Only a man who has led troops into combat under fire knows how to summon the necessary grace under pressure. He's the real deal and just what we need right now. The hardest part is waiting for him to emerge.

[tx_dem41]

6. None of the above. n/t

[rzemanfl]

7. Best we can hope for

Unfortunately, I think the best we can hope for is that history records that * stole two elections, became the most vilified "President" in United States history and destroyed the Republican party for a generation. Nothing short of armed rebellion will remove that s.o.b at present. However, the way he is treating the troops, a military coup is not out of the question at some point in the future if Bush continues to screw up (which, being a right-wing moron, he obviously will.)

I am reminded of a joke I used to tell before 9/11 and stopped telling for several years thereafter. Bush is speaking to a bunch of school kids and asks them if they know what a tragedy is. A little girl says "If my friend ran into the street after her ball, got hit by a car and died." Bush said "No, we'd call that an accident." A little boy said, "If our school bus went off a mountain and we all died." Bush said, "No, we'd call that a great loss." So another boy says, "I know, if you and your brother Jeb were in Air Force One and a terrorist shot it down with a surface-to-air missile and you both died." Bush says "Right! Can you tell me why?" The boy says, "The terrorist did it on purpose, so it was no accident and we all know it would be no great loss."

[bemis12]

8. Have to win the recount in Ohio

Period.

If we can't do that, then none of the above have any chance of success at all. Nor should they. Nobody is going to step in and stop a candidate that won the electoral college. If we can't turn the electoral college, it's lights out.

[garybeck]

13. disagree

the recount will not change anything. the recount is fixed.

however, the lawsuit alleges that there is fraud, including the fixing of the recount.

IMHO, the recount itself will not amount to anything. Proof of fraud is the only hope

[Griffy]

11. in these extrordinary times anything can happen...

Bush has stepped on many toes and belittled even more... the senate elects the president in that #1 choice vote.. we only need 6 republicans .. (44 dems.. 1 ind. and 6 rep and Kerry wins) I can think of a few... just stay tuned.. focus and MARCH ON DC on the 6th .. thats the date to be there!!! Ill stand for them... and perhaps they will stand for us!