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Democracy in America is about to die because of JOHN KERRY!!

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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:14 PM
Original message
Democracy in America is about to die because of JOHN KERRY!!
A golden opportunity to save his country was presented to John Kerry on election night, when he virtually had the world's spotlight upon him - and he was armed with the resources to launch a probe that would expose the obvious fact that the Republican Party had rigged the 2004 election through electronic voting/tabulation fraud and a voter suppression campaign that employed tactics from the Jim Crow era. Having full access to the exit poll data, Kerry knew all day long that he had handily won the election, and was working on his acceptance speech. He may have wondered if Bush (who was informed he had lost) was going to call him to concede.

But when the networks came on the air and began suggesting, then insisting that the exit polls were wrong (how could they have known this already) - John Kerry and his team knew better than any of us, that Karl Rove was in the process of stealing the election through fraud on an even much larger scale than the fraud they had stolen the 2000 election with. Kerry, as we all know, is a fighter - a decorated, bona-fide war hero and fearless prosecutor who, when he took on the BCCI scandal, arguably tackled bigger foes that the BFEE! And John Kerry loves this country he has served for so long - of this there can be no doubt. But he must have decided as some point that evening, that he had a better chance of saving his political career than he had saving or salvaging his stolen presidential victory. So he seems to have decided that rather than appearing as an Al Gore-esque "poor sport" and fighting - he would to let others take up this fight for him, reasoning that fraud of such a grand magnitude would most certainly be exposed in time. So, he held back most of his 17,000 lawyer force and most of his remaining money, and set his sights on "next time" - that next time being the 2008 race.

There are two major problems with Kerry's decision. First off, the people who have taken up the fight for Kerry don't have the kind of light on them that he had, and with our corporate controlled media, they clearly NEVER will. Because Kerry was the actual candidate (and the one the ACTUAL majority voted for) he is THE ONLY ONE the press could not have successfully ignored. Now, even the likes of high profile, long serving U.S. Congress members find themselves ignored, dismissed, and discredited with labels such as "dissidents," and lumped in with all the other conspiracy nuts and dreamers that are so prevalent in that shadowy world on the Internet.

The second, even bigger problem with Kerry's decision to wait for next time is THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE ANY NEXT TIME! This was it! They stole the election in 2000 and got away with it also! Remember?? THIS WAS "next time!" No Tom Delay-controlled Congress is going to impeach Bush, even if he's seen on live national TV murdering a defenseless child! Nor is our right-wing controlled Congress going to now pass legislation banning an electronic voting system that provides them with the ability to remain in power forevermore! This was it. And fate (or Karl Rove) put JOHN KERRY in this position - where his country needed him perhaps more than it's needed any American outside of Franklin Roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln. And how did our LEADER - our celebrated war hero respond? As a Kerry supporter and until now "true believer" I really hate to report that John Kerry appears to have gone AWOL. That is an apparent fact that I, for one, would NEVER, EVER have believed possible!

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UpsideDownFlag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. I prefer to blame it on the BFEE...but his acquiescence didn't help. nt
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
79. Last time I checked it wasn't JK that stole our vote. n/t
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UpsideDownFlag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #79
100. i didnt say he did, but while we're talking about the last time we checked
...last time i checked, JK very publicly conceded. that certainly didnt help anything.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #100
111. Concession has no legal standing. Allows him to slip under radar. nt
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #111
122. Trouble is - the WHOLE DAMN THING is under the radar screen
And it isn't likely the public will accept installing the real winner Kerry into office, having seen Bush for weeks working to fill his cabinet, claiming he has a mandate, being congratulated, etc. on his "clear cut" victory for a month and a half now.
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The Sushi Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kucinich would not have rolled over
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I agree. Neither would/did Gore. I am really amazed/disillusioned.
:shrug:
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
82. Gore asked the senators not to stand up. Isn't that rollling over?
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
54. Did Dennis Kucinich die? I could swear he's in Ohio and not very
vocal about this himself?

:shrug:
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Eye_on_prize Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #54
95. I saw a page of information by Kucinich on the web supporting the
investigations, fairly well worded and solid in its approach. but you are right, if he's OH rep. holy shit. where is HE in all this? would love to know that too..
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
56. Yeah, sure. Easy to say, I love these type of predictions.
Emmm, where is he now? Has he taken a stand and come out to support the challenges and come out questioning the results? Has he gone on MSM and said, "Folks, we have a problem"?

Just wondering :shrug:
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
85. Considering how active Kucinich has been active in the OHIO recount...
I'm not very convinced.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. What if he rescues us a couple of days from now?


I just keep wishing that he will ride in and save us at the last minute.

I really want to believe that Hope is still on the way!
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. I will be happy to have been proven a fool - and will kiss his feet!
ALL will be forgiven!
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. That's what I'm betting on. n/t
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. Me too!
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
33. Anything that happens now is entirely due to the efforts of Greens,
Libertarians, Nader, other private groups and individuals, etc. Kerry is shamefully waiting until others test the water before he decides to wade in. And he wanted to be President.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. He worked his ass off before - but he'll only take it now on a silver
Platter! :wtf: I absolutely do not get it.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #33
57. So, have you been involved in the strategy sessions. Do
you work in the law firms that have filed the suits, are you in the "know"?

I admit, we owe alot to Cobb and the rest, but I don't think Kerry is just sitting back.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. I am praying you are absolutely wrong!
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. So am I!
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praisethelowered Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Right on!
We have to deal with the reality before us. Kerry abandoned us when HE KNEW IT WAS RIGGED. But were not going AWOL.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. I know! We talk about "Bush Knew." What about "KERRY KNEW"?
Of course he did. How can he just accept such injustice without a frickin' fight? Maybe it show that the Repukes just fight harder. We have no choice but to fight much harder ourselves. Our first target should be the media. Then maybe the DLC...
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #25
59. You know, I can't get over those folks that think a man would
campaign for 600 days, mortgage his house and put his family through the rigors of a campaign and the abuse of the other side just to throw the election. Kerry has wanted to be make a difference for our country for 30 years, he has been making a difference. What have all of the "Kerry AWOL, Kerry Knew" folks done for the nation over the last 30 years?

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #25
93. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. Excellent EP!!!
I totally agree with every one of your points. The time to come forward has passed. I know JK has the intelligence to realize his mistake in letting them steal it again. So that leads me to my only conclusion and the reason I was hesitant to endorse him...
I believe he is one of THEM.

:cry:
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Jeez, I hope to God he isn't! But I don't get it! Who here would do this
:shrug:
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. that is my point!
the man is not fucking stupid! He knew wtf was going to happen and assured us he 'had our backs' and was 'the real deal'! Well bull fucking shit! His actions from NOV. 3 told me all I needed to know! He is the "RAW DEAL!"

... if he comes forward after today and admits his mistake in conceding way too soon, I will gladly eat a world of crow!
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. He certainly had ample warning about the potential for e-voting fraud!
I just don't get it. This guy is no wuss!
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Griffy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. not so.. the time and place of his choosing... this aint over!
the time is NOT past.. perhaps he was waiting for many things, like bush to tip his hand... arrogance is bush's biggest weakness...I can think of more... and I can imagine he quit. ever think we dont know enough to know!
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Perhaps it isn't - but it's getting pretty damn close.
Don't cha think?

:shrug:
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smartvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. We've been hearing that for a long time now. nt
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. Indeed we have!
Now my bullshit meter is sounding full blast! We've been had!
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #31
41. too long...
lotsa pollyannas around here. This fight is ours folks. We have no fucking candidate!
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suziedemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
89. This is NOT about Kerry.
This is about US. Citizens of the U.S.A. The ONLY power we have in this country is the right to vote. We don't make or enforce the laws, but we elect legislators, sheriffs, judges, etc. that we trust to act in our best interest. If they don't act in our best interests, our recourse is to not vote for them the next time. Tell me, what power do WE have if elections are a sham? If they can fix the election of the POTUS, how long before they fix the elections of Senators, Congressmen, or even the local sheriff or judge? It is essential that we fight and show that WE, THE PEOPLE, will not stand for fraudulent elections.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. that may be.....
but without the candidate standing up about election fraud, the US media will continue to ignore it!
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googly Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #90
102. You got that exactly right, Leftchick, however my guess is the reason JFK
Kerry conceded is that he must have realized between 9pm Nov 2nd and 11am Nov 3rd that his best recourse was to concede based on:

1) The 138,000 vote loss margin was too large to overcome
even with provisional votes and absentee votes counted later on

2) There was no way for Kerry to prove fraud unless a whistleblower or two came forward and he (Kerry) would only look like a sore loser not conceding inspite of the 138,000 vote margin of loss

3) Kerry knew others such as Conyers etc would investigate possible
fraud, and his only chance was for a whistleblower to come forward,
which would happen regardless of whether he conceded or not

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joeunderdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. US, THE PEOPLE can't call a press conference.
Kerry can. He can put our issues in the spotlight, but apparently that's a little too hot for him. What a pathetic disappointment if this guy goes out without a whisper with all of the evidence and brave souls coming forward, particularly this week. Where's HIS outrage?!?

JFK: MIA
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #92
96. Kerry's lawyers have written three letters to the Ohio officials. He is
involved but not as openly yet as you think he should be. The media will not cover this story, except for KO. Perhaps I am delusional (go ahead say it) but I still think laying low until there is proof is part of the plan. Too bad, the only media attention will be when Kerry is unequivocably involved. I still believe that will be soon. I haven't given up yet.

The DNC is another story, those are the guys who told Kerry not to fight back like he wanted to after the Swifties came out with their lies about him. He should not have listened to them, just as Gore shouldn't have listened to them in 2000 and distanced himself from Clinton.

I hope I'm right but I know he didn't throw the election on purpose as some keep suggesting. It is absurd and insulting to the values of everything Kerry has stood for in his lifetime of service.

Back to the 'I believe' thread for a hit.
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Griffy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #92
104. We the people CAN call press... MARCH ON DC 1/6/05 .. nt
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Mirwib Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #92
109. His plan is to become president
His best chance is 2008 rather than contesting the election now.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #109
120. LOL
And that helps how? He won't get my vote in '08 based on his actions in so swiftly conceding this election to the chimp. Won't get fooled again. :argh: Next time I want someone who really "has our backs!" means it and acts accordingly. He should be front and center working on this fraudulent election, not "behind the scene". He would have 56 million voters standing with him, #'s that would be hard for the MSM to ignore!
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #92
130. Good post.
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Goldeneye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
10. I'm gonna have to disagree
Edited on Wed Dec-15-04 06:23 PM by Goldeneye
Kerry is watching. And I stand by my initial opinion: Kerry would have gotten even less done than Gore did in 2000. This cannot be about Kerry. Don't get me wrong. I want him in the white house more than anything, but this is bigger than John Kerry. We need to get the voting system fixed, and if he were involved, the republicans would tag us as bunch of sore losers, and we wouldn't get anything done. I think at the rate were going, we are going to prove fraud, and we are going get some republicans in trouble. If John Kerry gets in, its because he won. If not its because they stole the election. His presence would do us no good at this point. Be patient, if the time comes, Kerry will step forward.
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. These are the only two possibilites!?!
"If John Kerry gets in, its because he won. If not its because they stole the election."
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. They DID steal the election! There isn't any question about it!
The numbers make no fucking sense - they had the motive, and the means - and ALSO the track record!
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sunnystarr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
43. His presence is the only that WILL do as some good at this point!
What point are you waiting for???? Now is the ONLY time that he can do some good. The reasons are there and people have had the courage to step forward and testify. Where's Kerry's courage???

I really wanted to believe and despite my fears that he wouldn't lead the fight, I believed he would once it was obvious that there was obstruction, disenfranchisement, and a coordinated *ush effort to steal this election. The time is now! Where is Kerry???
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. Where is he? This isn't like an option! He HAS to frickin' respond!
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Griffy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
14. I'll wait till the 21st of Jan to agree... he may yet turn his boat...
into the enemy.... but there is hope, and it is NOT over.. but if he just lets bush get re-elected I'll be in total agreement... and looking for a new party!



See "Diary of a Political Tourist" good perspective on Kerry and this race.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
16. If Kerry'd Gotten Involved ... There'd BE NO FRAUD INVESTIGATION
NONE. We wouldn't be as far along as we are now.

The Media Circus would have crucified him and in all the noise, we'd be TOTALLY unable to investigate ANYTHING.

Who knows what Kerry's strategy and reasoning was... but it is all for the best.

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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I wish I still had your faith in his judgment.
I'm sure I'd sleep easier.
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Mirwib Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #20
110. It would be nice to set up some verifiable tests to discern exactly
Edited on Thu Dec-16-04 06:18 AM by Mirwib
what Kerry has done.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. Well, if you consider 4 more years of Bush-
for the best.
:eyes:
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. It's better than 4 years of Hitler, and Stalin maybe...but after that...
Bushler's got to be the worst imaginable!
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #29
61. You Totally Missed The Point.
congratulations.

:eyes:
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
124. So just sit quietly behind the scenes?
If Kerry had won in the manner the Chimp did, the repukes wouldn't worry about being crucified for making waves. 56 million voters are willing to stand with Kerry and those #'s would be hard for the MSM to ignore! Kerry didn't give us a chance to stand up to the Media Whores for Chimpie. We had his back, unfortunately he doesn't have ours. What is "all for the best?" Being hung out to dry by our candidate when we need him the most? It appears to me that Kerry is looking out for his own best interests which don't appear to include those who voted for him. And I really hope I am wrong here.
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gumby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
22. It's not only John Kerry, it's the Dem Party.
Since the 2000 coup, it seems that the only ones speaking up have dark skins or are another minority like Patsy Mink (Bless her).

The White Guys who run things were then, and have now again remained silent.

Just as not one Dem White Guy in Senate would support those House Members who spoke up in 2000, they are silent now.

The Mainstream Media will not give the dark-skinned members of Congress the same coverage as the White Guys; especially in this stolen election stuff. This is why John Kerry's silence is so devastating. HE is the one that needs to have his face in front of the cameras full-time. He doesn't need to be screeching about a "stolen election," he just needs to be out front about "making sure all the votes are counted" like he promised.

Of course I don't mean to neglect courageous White Guys like Gerald Nadler and others, but the theme of this post remains the same. Call it racist if you want, but these are the facts. What would you call it? (is this flame-bait?)
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Quakerfriend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. We really need to give him a few more weeks
to prove himself to us. I do believe he'll step into the fray soon!!
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. A few more weeks? Have we got that?
:shrug:
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gumby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #39
48. "We" have got nothing.
There is NO WAY Bush will relinquish power... no matter what.

I don't understand why this in not understood.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. I suppose we're talking about "wresting" power than, aren't we?
The guy can't be allowed to stay in even though he keeps losing, simply because he doesn't want to leave. Some fucking democracy we've got going on here.
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gumby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #50
60. Let me count the ways:
Bush has control of the Senate
Bush has control of the House
Bush has control of the Judiciary
Bush has control of the FBI
Bush has control of the CIA
Bush has control of the Military
Bush has control of the Media

Did I leave anything out?
Where's "we?"
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Agreed. The Dem Party sucks. I ONLY trust the Black Caucus!
They're the only Dems left with balls, with a few notable exceptions.
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sunnystarr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
63. You have a valid point! (nt)
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
75. Thank you.
No flaming here. This is totally about race. The suppression of minority voters is racism. I went to the hearings in Columbus on Monday and I, a white female, was the minority in the room! I sat there and watched an African-American man in the audience pound on his chest and say "Let US Speak!" The minorities suppressed on Nov 2 are begging to be heard. Except for a couple of white congressmen (and Ted Strickland left way early) the people sitting on the dais were black. The minorities in Ohio are the ones in the streets spreading the message of election fraud on Nov 2. There is something very fucked up about this.
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daydreamer Donating Member (503 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
24. How do you prove it though
Edited on Wed Dec-15-04 06:51 PM by daydreamer
Karl Rove would not rig the election in a way that's easily provable. Without proof, what could Kerry do?
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. How did they prove it in Ukraine?
:eyes:
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. The exit polls are NEVER off by the degree they were here.
That's really their purpose - to expose fraud. Why do you think we financed the ones used in the Ukraine? To help Ukrainian political scientists study social trends? NO! To expose/prevent the kind of fraud that evidently took place there AND HERE!!
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
26. Kerry's reticence is absolutely inexcusable, but not surprising.
He showed what he was made of when the IWR vote came up.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Yep.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. What was the big drawback with...
Howard Dean again?
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
58. Don't know, but i bet Dean would be fighting tooth and nail right now.
I can't see him just accepting the Bushistas' decree that they had been "re-elected." I think that Dean recognizes the magnitude of the crisis America is facing.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
35. Oh give it a damn rest.
NGU.


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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Would you have let the GOP steal the election - steal your presidency
without a fight? I rather doubt it. I'll bet you can't even resist arguing this point with me! C'mon. Let's see you NOT respond.

:wtf:
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GetTheRightVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. I agree with Goldeneye, I believe he has behind the screens

remembering how Gore was hurt by Repubs, he has been behind the curtains gathering information to attack the repubs with while working with the 3rd parties and Black Caucas. It appears that they relayed on the people's outrage to be fuel on the fire of our angrier at the election fraud. I await the announcement as well as crossing my fingers.
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budkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
44. Amen to this!
What the hell did he have to lose by fighting? He is the main reason that the MSM is not taking any of this seriously.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. I think you summed it all up, bud!
It's really infuriating - and - I WANT MY MONEY BACK!!
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. me too!
about $275.00 I did not need to lose!
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
46. It's not over yet...
...and it is an utter waste of time to blame this on John Kerry, or anyone else involved in the K/E campaign, until Jan. 21. Then we can ask the question, did he sufficiently defend our right to vote?--not before.

You state that, "John Kerry and his team knew better than any of us, that Karl Rove was in the process of stealing the election through fraud...". What, you have psychic powers?

Look, I can sympathize with your anger at this incredible situation--our great victory stolen from us. But I urge you to direct your anger into constructive action. Go to Ohio--volunteer! Organize a protest. Fire off letters in every direction. Talk to people. Spread the word.

Save "the circular firing squad" for later--when the battle is over, and we have to think what to do next, and whom we should support.

I've had a long life of activism--40 years of it. One thing I've learned--after the assassinations of all of my political heroes in the 1960s, bang, bang, bang, one after another (God, it was awful!)--and more recent "black ops" including several probable assassinations--that we CANNOT rely on heroes and leaders. That is the lesson here. Democracy is a collective action. It requires each of us taking responsibility and working together. No leader can save us. WE are the leaders--all of us citizens collectively.

Getting angry at John Kerry (on the basis of a lot of presumptions) is useless. Either he comes through for us or he doesn't. It's not over yet. And if he doesn't, we deal with that.

And he may well come through for us, in interest of justice--but it doesn't work. What then? This is a long term project--saving our democracy. I hope he helps us with step one, challenging this election. If he doesn't, we have to find another way.

What I would suggest is that you write to him, and tell him why he should come forth vigorously and challenge it. Why complain here? It's just exhausting to all of us who are actively challenge the election.

In short: DO something!
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. When do we start panicking then? Jan 20th?
Is it at least time to be somewhat concerned?
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. I love what you said.
"We CANNOT rely on heroes and leaders. That is the lesson here. Democracy is a collective action. It requires each of us taking responsibility and working together. No leader can save us. WE are the leaders--all of us citizens collectively."

I've been in this for 40+ years, too ... and this is absolutely the lesson to be learned. We all became complacent, and this is where we landed. Who knows? This stolen election may be the best thing that ever happened to democracy if we all finally get up off our butts and do something about it. Power to the people -- right on!
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GettysbergII Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #46
88. January 6, 2005 I think you mean
That is the day the Congress ratifies the electoral vote. If no senator stands up with the Conyers and the lads then, it's over and with a whimper not a bang. I'd add also that any offical challenge would be not just a John Kerry decision but a decision by the entire DNP. Likewise a lack of one senator standing up would signal to me that the entire DNP leadership has stood down.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
53. YOU ARE SO WRONG
He has involved himself in this. The Kerry/Edwards campaign are plaintiffs to the civil action. Get your facts straight.

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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #53
65. Letting the Green Party take the lead. I hope "I am so wrong."
:argh:
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. So what does it matter who takes the lead. I cannot fathom
for the life of me why parties and who is first and what's on second come into play in all of this. SOMETHING IS BEING DONE. Kerry is not silent, he has taken an active role. You let me know when you run for office, any office, and I will donate to your campaign. Then you may get an idea how hard it is to campaign for 600 days, with the odds and the media against you.

What, do you want him to call you and tell you how he feels?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #65
73. Check your facts
Cobb, Badnarik AND Kerry-Edwards file expanded suit
The lawyers for Green presidential candidate David Cobb and Libertarian presidential candidate Michael Badnarik, along with Kerry-Edwards 2004 have added election tampering to a civil suit filed against the state of Ohio over problems with the state's recount

http://rawstory.com/exclusives/kerry_ohio_suit_1215.php

(BEFORE condemning rawstory as a source, you will see that copies of the legal documents are posted on the site.)
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angrydemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #53
66. AMEN MERH!
It is truly amazing at how quick so damn many think they know so damn much and have elected themselves god, judge, and jury. What the hell are all these people a bunch of phycics? Bullshit, If they know so damn much and are so damn good and know how to solve all the problems so much better why the hell wasn't their judgmental asses running for president, congress, or the senate instead of being a bunch of I know it all armchair quarterbacks. And YES, they need to get their damn facts straight and quit pissin in the wind! They need to assert there anger into helping instead of eating their own! Because by all means nobody is perfect, everybody has made mistakes including their judmental asses and until all the evidence is seen and heard you can't come out with the a fair and correct verdit and damn sure can't convict.
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coreystone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
62. Well, I don't know, maybe there was a "heads up" in 1994 when..
Newt's "Contract with America" hit the scene. REALLY! Let us scapegoat everyone except those of us who do not look in a
"mirror"!

:-)
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #62
70. I saw a political commentator on tv last night responding to
Pukeannans complaint that Reid was going to call for hearings on the matters the repukes refuse to investigate, like the prison abuse. The commentator said, fair is fair, this is what Newt did in 1994 when the dems had control of congress, why can't the dems do it now to the repugs. He was basically laughing at them and telling them, what's good for the goose....

It was a hoot!
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gumby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #70
86. Oh, goodie, a lawsuit.
Maybe it will reach the Un-Supreme Court sometime in Bush's unconditional reign.

Then Reid will have some "hearings" that will be without subpoena power and without any mainstream media coverage.

And then Barney Frank will continue to whine that he has no power.

By that time.............
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
64. Maybe he's waiting for the average person to expose this
Edited on Wed Dec-15-04 07:59 PM by HeeBGBz
We the people and all that.

Citizen's arrest.

For the people and by the people.

Or maybe not.

edited to say: It's my 400th post!
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. Maybe. But I tend to doubt that the average person has the resources
That HE has to accomplish this!
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
68. Perfectly stated. But you also raise some interesting points.
1. Kerry saw the real exits, and knew he won and it was rigged. But, there was that 3 million cushion. What do you do about that? It would have been pretty difficult at that time to realize BFEE put that extra padding in to stop him from disputing the results. Or, maybe the lightbulb went on and he said, Fuck, I am checkmated?

It must have been hard to know what to do at that point. He knew there was something wrong, not sure what or how it was done. I mean look how long it took everyone here to figure it out. He couldn't just come out and say, B* stole the election, without any inkling of what to say next. Maybe he could have waited a couple days to concede - but without any proof of how they padded?

2. They knew the exits were wrong too soon. Hmmm. Trying to remember how that happened. Wasn't it the next day before the company said there was something wrong with the program?
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Good points. But I think many of the statistical anomalies became evident
by the next day or two. He could have held off at least a couple of days to see what surfaced - because they knew that SOMETHING terribly wrong had transpired.
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. You're right. And even now, he could be screaming and he's
not. I want him to be there. I think he is a good man. And I am SO scared about what we have now - cornered like rats. I remember someone posting a note they got from Barney Frank. Paraphrasing, he said WE KNOW, but what do we do -- there's no one to go to (that they don't own). Maybe, the bad situation you say we ended up with was there Before the election. That is what we have to figure out a way to break into. Our own network for starts.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #74
80. I was stunned by that Barney Frank note.
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googly Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #68
103. yap, they claim exits had oversampled women and minorities
from what I heard and read in the MSM.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
72. CORRECTION
It's up to us, it's always been up to us, and the time and energy you and whoever else spend ruminating or mourning or crying in your beer about this are completely wasted.

Get with the program. Wake up, smell the coffee. Get over Kerry (or anyone else), and then get busy.
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #72
77. I understand what you're saying, but don't think there is anything w
wrong with analyzing how we got into the position we are in -- it will help us know how to get out!
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #72
81. I beleive ONE of the things we should be doing is DEMANDING that Kerry
Step up NOW!!
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. Do you mind if I send you original post to Kerry's brother??
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Eye_on_prize Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #84
98. Cam Kerry was on MSN last nite saying (paraphrasing ok) basically
that Kerry lost the election because blah blah blah. kept waiting for some more hopeful subtext somewhere in asides or facial gestures but i'm still waiting.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #84
121. I wish you would.
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joeunderdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #81
97. You got that right. It's more than halfway to inauguration.
From an earlier post.
If John Kerry stood up and cried “Election Fraud” it would have wide-ranging results.
1) A public outcry by Kerry will promote public dialogue, true investigation, donations, watchdogging and legitimacy in the MSM. Many will criticize, but many will come aboard, too. Like 60 minutes, some news outlets themselves are afraid of the backlash of being called conspiracists for initiating this story without some sort of public event to provoke it. Kerry can remove that barrier by speaking up.
2) Kerry would make instant believers out of the voters who only get their news and form their views from MSM. There are millions. Some people who need to be told how to think—Repubs and Dems—need to see a credible face with a concept that is widely dismissed as crazy conspiracies.
3) Public officials would be unlikely to pull the kind of crap that Blackwell is pulling each day. Do you think they’d’ve left the store open at the voting booth if CBS was in town? Would they have illegally locked down a recount with a NY Times reporters at the scene?
4) The Courts who will ultimately hear Arnebeck’s suit only have pressure from their (Repub) partisanship. Without a greater force of public outcry, only the incredible pressure from BushCo will decide the court case. Like Florida, the merits of the case won’t matter. Even Arnebeck says he needs public support to win this, and Kerry could bring instant exposure.

And lastly, and probably most importantly.
5)I concede on the point that if JFK speaks up, it might egatively impact his political career. If he speaks up and it doesn’t work, then I guarantee you he will not win the next rigged election, either. How can people not see that this is the most important point of all?
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
76. maybe the republicans were right about john kerry. eom
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. You mean that he's good, and decent, and wouldn't automatically
realize that the other side would be so consumately evil, unjust, unamerican, dishonest, diabolical?
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
83. Screw you
that is all
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
87. Um, what about this that was posted the same time as your post?
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #87
113. Yeah, mighty interesting timing, innit
Coincidence? Or distraction.

Every time Kerry makes a move in this fight, someone posts right after, wailing "Why doesn't he fight?!" It's weird.
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #113
115. Good. Thought it was just me!
The threads happened to be right by each other on the list too! LOL!
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #113
119. Coincidence, LC. I was not aware of this filing, and I am very pleased by
It. Why shouldn't Kerry come out now so that the other 99% of the public is made aware that all is not well with this election, as various bullshit MSM polls have tried to prove. What is the advantage, at this point of, of Kerry remaining underground? Perhaps he could lead the recount movement into the forefront of America's consciousness, rather allowing it to remain relegated to page a-28 in the local paper.
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wrate Donating Member (376 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
91. You want something done? Do it yourself. As they say in my country:
"No somos MACHOS, pero somos MUCHOS!" We are not MACHOS but we are MANY!

Organize, take to the streets, show the MSM, the Repigs, Bush and everyone else how angry you are and how far you are willing to go to defend your democracy.

Asking why Kerry hasn't done this or that while sitting behind a computer will NOT get your candidate the presidency he won. Not while the * mafia is in control.

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GetTheRightVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. It will never die because we are living here too, fight for it ourselves
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
99. I would have sworn that title was satire
Edited on Wed Dec-15-04 10:16 PM by Skip Intro
but you're serious.

I don't understand how you can be that positive that Kerry remaining apparently peripheral, so far, is a bad thing. Its possible a visibly hands-on Kerry pushing a recount might not be to the advantage of progress in Ohio. Strategy.

Maybe we already have the goods in OH, and the next time you see Kerry it will be at his inaguration.

Of course, that could just as easily not be true.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #99
117. In addition to a recount in Ohio - there ought to be one in Florida
Where there was likely even more fraud - but it isn't going to happen because Kerry didn't make it happen! The American public doesn't react to ANYTHING that isn't televised, and thanks to Kerry's decision to stay underground NOTHING'S being televised. The title ought to be satire - it certainly reads that way - but unfortunately, amazingly, I believe it happens to be the truth. Let Kerry prove me wrong (I certainly hope he does).

:shrug:
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Chasing Dreams Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
101. The Kerry is AWOL argument has been discussed on and off for weeks, and
you are right!

Despite the news coverage over the last few days, it is truly a drop in the bucket relative to where we should be -- shock and awe bombing of the fraud on national TV, night after night. Kerry and Edwards could have done it. Yes, they might have had to sacrifice their careers, but "THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE ANY NEXT TIME" if the Republicans get away with this.

And it isn't just Kerry and Edwards that have failed us, it is the entire Democratic Leadership with the exception of Conyers and his Judiciary Committee allies.

On January 6th I am expecting at LEAST 10 Democratic Senators to object to the Ohio Republican Elector Slate. If there isn't at least one Democratic Senator contesting, then on January 7th I am changing my registration and vote in 2006 and 2008 to the Green Party. To those claiming I "am throwing away my vote" here's my response: Well, at least I know that a Green vote will be counted correctly...and I don't want to give the Republicans a 5% chance of randomly stealing my Democratic Party vote.
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The Judged Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 03:48 AM
Response to Original message
105. How many days and weeks have passed, since Election Day 2004?
Yet, the lid is only beginning to get blown off the fraud scam of Election 2004.

If Kerry had resisted at the onset, then the Republicans would have virtually locked down every possible lead to evidence in expectation of the battle to ensue, but by Kerry's strategy to concede, there was an alternative available: to get the Republicans to relax, and to hunt down all clues of fraud.

Strategically, there was little more that Kerry could do, in hopes of actually catching the fraud, at the time that he conceded.

He needed to have actual evidence, and at the time that he conceded it was not available or yet discovered.

He is a former state prosecutor and a current Senate investigator and he knows the rules of evidence.

You must have evidence!

If Kerry had not conceded, do you honestly believe that the evidence would have been preserved until or even found by now?

If Kerry had not conceded, do you honestly believe that the Republicans would not have been much more vigilant and dogmatic and judicially bent on stopping the Democrats at every turn and every step of the way to finding every iota of evidence that has been found thus far?

Finally, If Kerry had not conceded, do you honestly believe that Congressman Conyers would go on MSNBC on say to Keith Olberman that that Democrats "are prepared to contest election!" OR "And the fact that Republicans didn't join us <[in investigating the allegations of irregularities and fraud in Presidential Election 2004>] isn't our problem, it's their fault!" ????????? Here is the video link of Congressmna Conyers' remarks as copied from http://www.crooksandliars.com on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 without express permission of the owner of that website: http://movies.ziaspace.com/12-15.wmv
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angrydemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #105
106. The Judged
There are so many of us that have tryed to explain this to the others around here and it's like talking to a block wall. It's as if they cannot comprehend how Kerry could be working on this unless he comes out screaming FRAUD, FRAUD, and doing some kind of damn jig. It is just plain crazy to sit and judge a man when you don't know the whole story.

And you can remind them that there is an investigation going on but they still don't comprehend. Hell I don't know how you explain to these people to get them to understand what is going on. I try to explain it in other ways hoping to flip the switch in the brain:think: Hell nothing works. Hell I have even told them to think about how a drug bust works. When they are investigating and getting ready make arrests they don't tell who is involved in the investigation, how and when they will conduct the arrest does that mean the police aren't doing their jobs? No. Hell when investigation going on they are not going to get TV and Say OK folks tonight we are going to the residence of Georgie W.Dipshit we will be watching all the traffic in and out of the residence, then we have undercover officer Johnny B. Good who will be going in and make the purchase and then signal for backup, and then we will arrest Georgie W. Dipshit. Stay tuned to Newscenter 5 for live action at 6:00:crazy:

Good luck at getting them to listen or comprehend what you are saying. They are to busy electing themselves god, judge, and jury. They are to busy being armchair quarterbacks. They don't understand or don't want to understand you have to know what is going on, see all the evidence first before you can come out with a fair and accurate verdict. And until you do you sure as hell can't convict. But as you see they skip most of the process and have already convicted Kerry and they don't even have the facts. They are so sure of themselves and they think they know it all that he is guilty as they charge. Hell Kerry was put on death row before it even got started.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #105
123. Repukes are not that dumb. They know this has been investigated
and that Kerry's being kept informed and backing it to a minimal degree. We need a full fledged, high profile assault on these cheaters!! We used to think Tom Daschle had some clever plan up his sleeve whenever he used to cave in. I'm not saying that Kerry is completely caving - I don't believe that (and I certainly don't want to believe it) I'm just suggesting that this toe in the water entry is bullshit and isn't working. Kerry needs to take charge. He might impress the public that he can lead this nation if he can lead us through the worse scandal in the history of this nation - not just pretend it didn't happen - or he isn't involved.
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Guava Jelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 05:38 AM
Response to Original message
107. Democracy is dead because Americans are sheep
And the Media is the judas goat leading them to thier own demise.
Lets face it Americans are dumb

I am reminded of an old saying.
one mans trash is another mans treasure.
Well One mans lie is another mans truth.
get the f off of Kerry
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #107
112. I love the whiney "I'd fight if Kerry would go first" response
How is it Kerry's fault that people won't get off their butt to protest.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #112
118. People are protesting - it's Kerry that won't get off his butt!
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Dem2theMax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 05:46 AM
Response to Original message
108. Democracy in America is about to die because of GWB, and ONLY
GWB and his evildoers. PERIOD.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #108
126. And if you were in Kerry's shoes, you would challenge an obviously rigged
Election? You'd accept it without a fuss, not wishing to come off like a poor sport, possibly tarnishing your image. It goes without saying that BushCo is the one destroying our democracy, our nation, our planet, but the unwillingness of the Democratic Party to act as an opposition party with any real backbone has allowed the right to succeed. They couldn't have done it without them, actually.
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NicRic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
114. Wait to long for your ship to come in ,miss the boat N/T
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
116. If Bush was told he was going to lose? how did he rig the election?
I don't have any doubt the electronic voting machine problem is real but when you said that "Bush was told he was going to lose" it contradicted that they had rigged the election. MY guess is he was told he was behind in the exit polls in Ohio and he smirked and said, "No problem."
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #116
125. Karen Hughes has described how she informed Bush that the exit polls
Were indicating a Kerry electoral landslide. She said he took the news stoically. Karl Rove obviously knew otherwise.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #125
128. Rove & poppy
Poppy was too relaxed and happy that night, poppy continued to keep everyone's spirits up. He knew the fix was in.

The weed and family were all gloom and doom until lat that night. Hell, when the weed and pickles and the twins cast their votes that morning, the weed and pickles were stoic and dejected and they didn't even include the twins in the interview (guess they couldn't hide their fears and sadness). Poppy knew. The idiot didn't until that night.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #128
132. The exit polls indicating a Kerry landslide
Ouch. Ouch. Ouch.

And those were likely the correct results, we're reckoning, right?

And by the look on Kerry's face Nov. 1, that's what his internal polls were saying too. He looked so happy.

Then he ran into the same brick wall we did.

And I was right. I told everyone "LANDSLIDE!"

Man, if that was the true result, I must say I'd feel much better about my fellow Americans.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
127. This is hyperbole
look it up.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #127
129. So what?
What's with the quotation marks?

:shrug:
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
131. that's not the way it is
let's get straight what this story is and isn't.

It is a REAL problem that needs REAL solutions.

What it is NOT, but which people are trying to make it into, is a cudgel to bash various people with, mostly dems.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
133. This thread is all that is wrong with our party
Self-destructive negativity.

Why don't you read something positive about Kerry here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=167965&mesg_id=167965

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