So A Senator Refuses To Certify: What Does That Accomplish?

[cali]

From my perspective, not much. The election goes to the Congress, and the Congress is dominated by Republicans. What else does it accomplish? I just don't see it as being a practical move. What am I missing?

[Peace Patriot]

1. Heart. Soul. Justice. n/t

[noamnety]

2. It calls into question the legitimacy of the election

It makes a formal statement that we do not accept these results. It brings media attention to the need for real election reform, including audit trails, an end to racial disenfranchisement, etc.
It says we will not smile and nod as you remove the last traces of democracy from this country.

[yurbud]

3. strip the veneer of democracy

off these fascists, so Americans can begin to see what the rest of the world is already horrified by.

[VTGold]

4. Public debate - public record of the evidence - then they have to

...vote (in public) and say that they accept "him" as President even though his legitimacy is seriously in question.

They all have careers to think about and I'm sure there are quite a few repugs in the House and Senate that are not at all thrilled with dubya.

Could have an effect - we're swimming upstream though - no doubt.

[Senator]

5. OK several things

First, the pitch. We're asking that Senators (and Reps) to declare their intent to object NOW.

www.thedeanpeople.org

This puts states on notice that there may be a consequence to their lack of action. Included is a demand that states take affirmative action to demonstrate that any problems in their state have been remedied or are of negligible effect.

This puts the burden of proof back where it belongs. State officials don't simply owe us a vote count that we can't prove was criminally generated. They owe us a result we have confidence in. They have failed in several states to do this.

Now, if there's no shift in the political landscape and a Senator just pops up on Jan 6th to object. The bodies retire to separate chambers and vote, then most likely come back and accept the challenged electors.

But even this would be an historical event. On a more practical level it creates a real consequence for the situation. Something might actually happen next time if we don't clean up our act. You must make the injustice visible. -- Ghandi

That is even the most pessimistic scenario.

The political landscape could well change. Or even turn on a dime, should their be some fruits from the efforts ongoing in Ohio and elsewhere. We could end up in situation where even some Repubs are concerned about the integrity of the election. (Yes, really.)

But even if not, we could have a situation where the public gets wise. And then you could have "impeachment numbers." Where 70% of the country thinks (not simply that we should moveon) but that there's treason afoot.

It's one thing for cowardly politicians to sit on their hands while someone's cronies foist an appointed ruler on us (as opposed to an elected leader) with some legal mumbo jumbo, smoke and mirrors. But it's quite another to face down a 70% negative public opinion poll.

(Which is exactly what they were likely facing in 2000 when Luntz focus-grouped the Florida Leg. doing the dirty work scenario. They had no choice but to defecate on the institution of the court to "shut it down.")

And they thought they had an image problem with Gingrich around.

Now, you want me to go into the benefit to party/leftist morale; or the 5-7% of the white male vote it could garner by simply showing some backbone for a change (another historical event).

www.thedeanpeople.org

[ewulf]

9. exactly.

I agree totally: we can make this into a tremendous victory, one that will last well beyond the next four years, if we bring out the truth. A challenge to the inauguration would be a great place to start. It would light a fire behind a real, definitive investigation and it would legitimize all of our actions in the eyes of the American public. God I hope it happens.

[pinkpanther]

6. Oregon petition to Wyden; plagarize and use in other states

Hard copy petitions are more effective than email or web.

ActionSpeaks Portland has written a petition urging Senator Wyden (D-OR)to voice his support of any challenge of the 2004 election brought by members of the House of Representatives. This petition can be modified and sent to senators in other states. Download documents from: http://www.actionspeaksportland.org

Please make copies of this petition and gather as many signatures as possible! It must arrive at the senators' offices by the beginning of the 2005 session - if you mail the completed petition to the senator's Washington DC office, we suggest doing so by December 28th. Or you can FAX the completed petition by December 30th.

ALSO: write letters, emails, make calls to Wyden, Boxer, and to other senators who may be willing to stand up! They need to hear from us en masse.

Text of petition:

Senator Ron Wyden December 14, 2004
516 Hart Senate
Office Building
Washington DC 20510
[phone]

Dear Senator Wyden:

Massive evidence has emerged concerning election irregularities and fraud in the 2004 Presidential Election. The GAO has received over 57,000 complaints concerning election irregularities. Hundreds of stories on malfunctions of electronic voting machines and central tabulation machines are appearing in regional news media. Numerous papers and sworn testimonies written by experts are stating that the chances of the exit polling to be so wrong are almost a statistical impossibility.

We recently learned that Kenneth Blackwell, the Secretary of State for Ohio, who is clearly partisan as the Co-Chair for the Bush/Cheney campaign, has used his official powers to illegally hinder the recount process in Ohio in numerous ways. He has also refused to cooperate with and refuses to recognize the jurisdiction of the House of Representatives Judiciary Committee.

It is because of these facts along with so many more that we are proactively seeking support from you.

We, the undersigned citizens of Oregon, agree that a repeat of the betrayal of the 2000 election where no Senator stood up to support the members of the House of Representatives in challenging the election outcome is unacceptable. We urge you to openly voice your support for any challenge of the 2004 election brought by members of the House of Representatives.

Respectfully,

[absolutezero]

8. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[haifagirl1]

7. accomplishes NOTHING!!!

[coreystone]

10. "cali" - I think that I agree with some elements of previous posts..

on this thread that assert that it is important to have this "on record"! I would like to have no elected Congress Person allowed to "backtrack" on an issue so important as this.

I "FEEL" that if a Senator will support this issue, than it will be a matter of record. I, also, believe that each Senator has to be accountable for their decision to, or not support this action.

As far a the Senators from Vermont, they have already taken their hits!!

It's someone else's turn!

What would be absolutely gorgeous would be to have a lage slate of Dems stand up!

Only wishful thinking.

:-)

[trudyco]

14. Great Idea

Instead of asking your individual Senator lets ask ALL Senators to stand up and contest this (even if all dems). That we will not go through 2000 again. That so far the recount in Ohio has been a farce and where are all the Senators looking into it? That even if they have no hope of changing the outcome they are missing the point. It's time to take a stand. No more.

trudyco

[bush_is_wacko]

11. You know...

All this information will be made public at some point. If you were a senator, would you want the world to know you endorsed th completely corrupt administration of the worlds largest superpower? I hope they all, Republican and Democrat alike, realize that EVERY one of their names WILL be remembered in the event this country EVER wakes up from it's stupor! And the information that is coming out in bits and peices now, will ensure they never sit in ANY poition of power ever again! I almost wonder if the media is waiting for the oppurtunity to destroy them! I know,:tinfoilhat: THE INFORMATION I'M LOOKING AT COULD CAUSE MAJOR UPHEAVAL IN THIS COUNTRY! ARE YOU LOOKING AT THE SAME THING I AM?

[eomer]

12. If this thing gets to a Watergate level..

or even greater level of scandal, which is where it seems headed to me, then things may happen that would be otherwise not be imaginable. I've got to believe there are at least a few republican Senators that would not go along with seating a president if it's been proven that the election was a fraud. After all, the Senate did not vote to remove Clinton from office and the reason has to be that there are at least few Republicans with a conscience.

So my favorite end game is that this thing blows sky high and the Senate ends up voting in Kerry because he's the one who actually won.

[Bill Bored]

13. Elections are still under control of the states

Even if Congress does nothing, we can change things at the state level, the way the Repukes do when they elect or appoint thugs to run their elections, or redistrict TX 8 years ahead of schedule. By calling attention to the problem in Congress, it might motivate the states to take some action, but of course it will require the people to demand this. Giving the issue some needed visibility in the Congress would help.

Lots of issues though:

1. The paper trail, while verifiable, would not determine if and when a recount will take place. State laws determine that. If Ohio didn't have an easy way to do it, it wouldn't happen with Bush's current margin, and even with these laws, Blackwell had to be dragged kicking and screaming. Now the recount itself may be hacked!

2. What's to stop anyone who just doesn't like the outcome of an election to demand a paper recount if the law allows? This could result in more restrictive legislation. We may never again have the opportunity that we now have in Ohio.

3. If there's true hacking and fraud the margins can be made to look large enough to fall outside the bounds required for recounts. Suppose a state law says that only < 0.5% margin may be recounted; no problem -- just win by 0.6%! That paper trail wouldn't help much then, would it?

4. The states should get rid of these machines, or have them independently audited by professionals prior to accepting them. If the companies won't give up the code, don't buy the product! If they've already been bought, the state should ask for it's money back. The states can make these laws, and they buy the machines, so in a way, Congress is not even accountable is it? Part of the states Request for Proposals should include the ability to see the code, etc.

Well, I just wanted to vent a little here because all I've been hearing is that the odds are 3-zillion-to-1 that the election was stolen because of an exit poll not necessarily even designed to detect this, and few constructive suggestions about how to prove it, or what to do about it. And some folks say I'm boring!

Ohio is still our best hope and that can lead to wider exposure. Has anyone talked to John Glen yet??? (I know he's no longer in the Senate, but he has a lot of respect, and I'd imagine, connections in the Sentate, doesn't he???) I suppose if he were to speak up, the Repukes will remind us that the Russians got into space first though!

On the other hand, we could just keep repeating the same statistics over and over again while Shrubco goes on doing what they do.