i know the election was stolen, how did they do it

[seabeyond]

and getting away with the handcounts matching in the counties they are doing. i didnt expect them to find it in recount, figured they were more clever. yet now that we have the recount and it shows nothing, i know the election was stolen

what is the theories

[theshadow]

1. How do you know it was stolen?

You've arrived at a conclusion but don't know why. Isn't it within the realm of possibility that we lost just because there weren't enough votes cast for our candidate?

P.S. And oh, am I gonna get flamed for this one!

[bemis12]

2. Not from here

There's never been any way the majority of DU'ers were going to accept that it's possible to lose an election.

So you get a recount. If that shows you lost, then it's "rigged" also. There's literally NOTHING that would make people accept it.

Myself? I'm waiting for the recount results. If we lose that, then we just lost. I'm open to whatever the results show.

[kuozzman]

126. How can you put that much faith in THIS recount?

I disagree that NOTHING would satisfy most of those who are unsatisfied. Sure we keep saying it's rigged, but what the hell is so hard about doing a valid recount? Why this 3% crap? Especially in light of the Triad employee messing with machines and talking about cheat sheets? And now they're all perfect? They're NEVER this accurate, in any state. Personally I think there should be a revote in OH because of the (extremely) long lines that likely made many people not vote, especially Democrats. Anybody who thinks * would win in a revote probably also thinks the dollar is strong....

[mattclearing]

179. Even so, how can anyone trust the results when they aren't auditable?

eom

[seabeyond]

133. it would be easy to shrug and let it go, but.....

if..... it has been stolen, then what does future election really matter. if they can win getting away with this stuff, once again we only allow them to be bolder and go further, the citizens sensitized and ready to accept more

hey kinda like you. you allow all this, they can just do more next time. so basically what you suggest, is we allow rampant coruption, so we will be one of the people that will accept loss. and then, you hold yourself out as the better person here, as if my not accepting it makes me not quite so what, smart. but in the reality, whi is not being so bright to continually allow the other party to win in theft yet hopefully say, next time we will get them, next time

[berniew1]

137. Elections are easy to rig these days & easy to cover up rigging: here's ho

Tell me the system and I can tell you ways to rig it easily if you have access to the records or compilers. And if a rigged election is being checke, for example by hand count, I can tell you have to cover it up where its extremely unlikely to be found.
On punch card system you just (1) replace x Dem vote cards with x Repub vote cards; (2) or add x(i) cards per precinct(i). Under case (1) there is nothing that can be done to catch the theft, other than do a survey of the voters which wouldn't even be consided proof. For case (2) if its being hand counted or the vote log will be checked against the number of official votes, you have to sign in x(i) people who didn't vote. Only way to catch this is notice more than one person seems to have same handwriting(if one person signed all), or do a followup to see if everyone who signed in really voted(this has never been done before so its virtually impossible to catch theft).
Perry County however appears to have had theft of this type which was observed that one person seems to have signed in multiple voters.

With touchscreens either the election officials or in many cases the manufacturer reps have virtual unlimited ability to decide what the proper vote count that they want is. And there is no way to catch theft unless someone turns state evidence. You can look at whether the vote makes sense given the demographics but not way to actually check. Voting on touchscreens is giving the election authorities the ability to decide who gets elected. Why bother to have an election. You might be able to prevent it by putting in checks and balances(both parties at all steps) but even this isn't foolproof.

With optical scan, the results can be determined by election officials or manufacturer reps who have access at will. And since most places don't have hand recounts, nothing would be caught. If there is a hand recount, to cover it up they just need to go through same steps as in punchcard section above.
Its just very easy to rig elections these days, the U.S. doesn't have either a "democratic" system or a reliable system. Basicically we allow the election officials to decide who should be in office in most cases.

[Truman01]

3. Shadow I've been saying this for weeks!

It's an unpopular position, but you can see we passion takes over reason. We reached the conclusion because of exit polling that was most likely floated by our own candidate that we were going to win. That is the reason a candidate puts out that sort of information, to give himself the appearance of strength for the later voters.

There is a concept called egocentricism which says that we expect the majority of the world to think as we do because we consider ourselves "normal." When we are faced with the stark reality that we are not alone, we tend to try to explain that away.

Look at how many times you see on this board words like, how could so many people believe "x". Or, like this poster, I know X happened I just can't figure out how.

I think there is a big problem with paperless ballots, I am certain that there was election fraud (there always is on both sides), but I'm also fairly certain that we just lost. What we are seeing now are the really hard working, committed idealists, who just can't see the idea that we could have just lost.

We need to rework our message if only to make it clearer. Work to show how bad this administration is, and prepare for 2006. I'm afraid you are right, we just lost.

TC

[skids]

4. If you think this all started with exit polling...

You really don't understand.

Read more. The evidence is conclusive.

[Truman01]

8. You use the term evidence quite loosely. I've done little else

but read about this subject in the past 8 weeks or so. There is little or no evidence of widespread fraud. We have theories, we have interesting statistical analysis, but we have no evidence. If we had evidence, people like me would be in courts presenting it instead of talking about it here.

Theories are fine until we test them and find them to be false. We clammored for a recount, we are getting one. Since we don't like the results and we are convinced of how the outcome should be, we are coming up with new theories as to why the recounts are also rigged.

If these boogiemen are so powerful as to pull of this nationwide compiracy as some of our theories have held, then we are in some deep shit. Nothing short of a miricle will save us.

I prefer to think that we simply didn't get our message out there well enough. With some good work we can. Let's do good work.

TC

[bj2110]

18. What, like Bush admitting it on Fox? These are smart people...

it will take a large-scale effort to bring to light just some of the fraudulent activity. There's enough circumstantial evidence here that would bring an embezzlement case to court. That's how that type of thing is discovered, statistics and opportunity. Show that it could happen, and show the statistics that support the theory, and BAM, you have a case.

I seriously don't know what you people are waiting for. There's enough out there now, but no one knows about it. Not all of it. It's our job to get it out. It will be uncovered. It may take time, but it will be uncovered.

[bunny planet]

47. I respectfully disagree. In Ohio (and in Florida) there is widespread

evidence of voter suppression and disenfranchisement both before and during the election. The recount efforts have had roadblocks thrown up right and left. You just had to watch both of the Dem HJC hearings and listen to the stories the people told to know that something really funky was going on.

The machine ate my vote factor is of course the hardest thing to prove, but lots of other things are glaringly obvious if only we could get it out there on a grand scale in the media. That is starting to happen, but we are running out of time. I am so ready for a prominent Democrat to come forward and denounce Blackwell and his shenanigi in a public news conference. Sorry but JJ and Conyers are just not going to be enough. I am hoping for CBC redux in the January 6th official unsealing and certificaton of the electors if it comes to that.

Sproul and associates tearing up democratic registrations, provisional ballots not being honored for the exact reason they were created, to prevent disenfranchisement of voters, less machines and broken machines in heavily democratic and African American precincts, unusually long lines in such districts but only 15 minute waits in heavily Republican districts, devious misinformation deseminated to new voters.....etc.,etc.,etc.

And now Blackwell is making every effort to throw a monkey wrench into the recount efforts even though it is a legal (and paid for) request for a recount which he is heard on tape (KO) agreeing to. Something is so wrong, not to admit that is positively ostrich like.

What are they hiding? Are they going to get away with this, because if they do, this is it folks. Wake up and smell the freedom fries, there will be no free and fair elections again if we don't alert the public at large to what happened in this election. We are making progress which is why I haven't given up yet.

I think what I'm going to do myself is write to every candidate who thinks they running for President in 2008. If they don't grow a set now, and stand up against another stolen election, they will have no chance of ever being nominated for President (not that they'd have a chance to win anyway with a systemically fraudulent and broken election process).

Part of the problem with other potential candidates like Dean, and Clark, and Clinton are that they don't want to rock the boat and ruin their chances of being the Dem candidate in 2008, this includes Kerry (if he is not working under the radar in 2004 to eventually contest these results). Maybe it's time to make it abundantly clear to them that none of them have our support in 2008 unless they band together now, present a united front, and talk about fraud and foul play in this election. How can they expect to be elected if they've allowed African American voters to be disenfranchised, and have their votes stolen in such a blatant, and criminal way, and they've done nothing about it. Maybe we can make them think about the possibility of a third party candidate like the Greens, who have actually stood up for us, being the ones to gain the nomination over the Dems due to a grass roots effort from the progressives (us).

If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem, it's as simple as that. They must be made to worry about their own political futures. They really have nothing to lose, if an election can be stolen on such a massive scale, not once but three times in a row, how can they ever expect to be elected to office again anyway. Even if they are in Congress, how can they expect to effect change and get anything done if the Republicans can just steal Senate and Congressional seats with impunity?

It's really clear, Democracy, use it or lose it.

Time to write some letters!!!!! It's easy to hate Terry McCauliffe, he's a tool, but we have to get tough with our own choices for candidates (yes this includes Kucinich), where are they? Are you willing to let Kerry be robbed because you think it'll be easier for you to get the Dem nomination in 2008? That sucks.

Sorry for ranting. Haven't had one in awhile. I feel better now.;-)

[kk897]

82. about Kucinich

I'd like to mention that he was the only candidate to officially send a representative to the first Columbus hearing.

[Daybreaker]

89. However ...

But doesn't it seem as though those theories are correct?

What's your explanation for the tampering? Are you saying that it didn't happen?

Specifically, let's talk about the Triad employee who tampered with a voting machine in front of a witness who has a signed an affidavit to that effect. Aren't you choosing to disbelieve the affidavit rather than accepting that fraud is the likeliest explanation?

And that's just one example. We've got 10,000 more.

[righteous1]

91. Maybe correct, on the other hand

that "tampering" may have been what others call maintenance and calibration mandated by county proceedure prior to any vote count. I try to keep an open mind and endeavor to get the whole story before I come to conclusions

[Daybreaker]

93. Does that really make sense, though?

Honestly. Does it make sense to you that someone came in, monkeyed with a voting machine, then put up a cheat sheet to make sure it matched the official tally?

What does "maintenance and calibration" mean, exactly?

[righteous1]

94. Thats what i am saying ,I don't know if it's true

but to me it's as possible as not untill I here something a bit more definative

[skids]

98. Yeah, I'm sure....

That posting a list on the wall of precincts results and "disguising it as employee instructions" so the "counts will match perfectly" is "routine maintenance". Come on.

[Truman01]

144. That affidavit is evidence, not proof, that a person supposedly

from Triad came in and opened a machine and did something to it. Beyond that it is all speculation. I say evidence not proof because one must decide whether or not they believe the affidavit (if the person is a democrat people will question their reason to lie) but even if the person is telling the truth, it is simply a doorway through which to ask more questions. We don't know what the "Triad" employee did to the machine, we don't know what the purpose was and we don't know it is has any relevance at all. The connection between this act and the count is simply our speculation.

TC

[Truman01]

145. Self delete accidental dupe

from Triad came in and opened a machine and did something to it. Beyond that it is all speculation. I say evidence not proof because one must decide whether or not they believe the affidavit (if the person is a democrat people will question their reason to lie) but even if the person is telling the truth, it is simply a doorway through which to ask more questions. We don't know what the "Triad" employee did to the machine, we don't know what the purpose was and we don't know it is has any relevance at all. The connection between this act and the count is simply our speculation.

TC

[righteous1]

146. According to the BOE official (Dem) I talked to

The maintenance and calibration of all machines is mandated prior to ANY vote count whether it be the general election or a recount. Maybe they did something naughty..... maybe not. But the fact that they looked into the machines is indicative of nothing more than following SOP.

[skids]

97. We have evidence.

We have considerable evidence where we can get it -- from the poll books and absentee ballots. Werner's paper on Trumbell is just what's been publicised so far. And we will get plenty more once we get our hands on more paperwork.

The recount is hacked, there are many, many signs of this being the case. Pointing to this as a valid "test" of theories is just silly. Even were it not hacked, the procedures they are using are so inherently flawed that they wouldn't pick up on some of the more obvious cases of ballot breakdown.

You say move on. I say step the hell off. I'm sticking to my guns.

[zann725]

114. Machines aside, there were 'people' involved in the Fraud...

and that's where the real "disclosures" will come from.

I'm sticking to my guns too! 'Keep hope alive!'

[Truman01]

147. First I've never said "move on," secondly you don't have ....

evidence, you think you know where there is evidence. Go find it. That is very legit. But when you get to where you think your evidence is, if it disagrees with your theory then go where the evidence takes you instead of trying to make the evidence fit your theory.

TC

[m berst]

118. hey

The op asked people to speculate, not prove in a court of law. I for one looked forward to a thread that was little different than the same old tired debate back and forth for the thousandth time.

Speculate. Use your imagination. Accept the op's tentative working hypothesis.

There is more to life than debunking.

[AmerDem]

10. "passion takes over reason" ...LOL

In your case I think it's more of ignorance taking over functional thinking. I'm not going to go into the endless proof nationwide of voting fraud. One only has to know that the e-voting system uses proprietary software code to function. No one but the "corporations" who own it have access to the source code. On that basis alone I don't think anyone has the right to say there isn't potential for fraud to take place.

Why any American would allow the very backbone of our Democratic system to left unchecked and uninvestigated to a bunch of corporate CEO's is beyond belief.

[righteous1]

14. Bingo, you it the nail on the head

(potential fraud). It may have happened, but to deem it as anything more than speculation is intellectually dishonest. As has been stated before; If you are going to get a court to act, especially on an issue that they don't want to touch with a ten foot pole, you better have solid ,verifiable ,compelling evidence or it's going nowhere

[seabeyond]

27. ya righteous you are right to get them to act

we have to have the proof. i think most reasoned people know this to be true. so we cant. so are we suppose to pretend it didnt happen.

we didnt know for sure in florida in 2000. not the factual proof. oh we all were pretty certain. came about the time bush said no way i lost florida and then his cousin on fox called florida for him. we didnt have the proof. but we knew

so well after we find the factual evidence, in the meantime bush is makig life decisions for all of us. 3000 down with 9/11, 100k iraqi lives......what the fuck. we didnt have the information at the time so shut up

we dont have the proof now. but i know. like i knew in 2000

and sure enough we are going to have bush making life decisions, cause we dont know how they did it or cant prove it.

this is working. good luck on your 2006 election living in your illusion, telling me i am not realistic. tell me how you are going to win 2006 in all your reality

[righteous1]

43. First ,by not throwing theories and accusations around that

can boomerang on my party and get people plenty pi$$ed off. Let me tell you something, my brother lives in Ohio, and the water cooler talk there is beginning to get starchy. If this thing continues and irritates the average Ohiojoe enough, a major democrat candiate won't win there for a decade. They are starting to feel as though Conyers, Jackson etc are assaulting the sanctity of THEIR state, calling into question the competence and loyalty of THEIR people. These are Dems I'm talking about mind you. All I know is you better produce proof or the ramifications of this thing may have an affect opposite of what you intended

[seabeyond]

51. what, i am suppose to live in a story because a lot of people

dont want to look. i am so tired of people telling me to buy a lie for their comfort

do be ashamed ohio, florida and across the nation

be ashamed

my god,..........black vote was denied

youth vote was demied

each person with a child, be friggin disgusted. and if you are a part feel the shame

i am not going into a cozy story because some people are afraid of what they will see.

[seabeyond]

53. you democrats on here

the ones that supposrt erry's ignore it. dont shame the people

people dont want to hear, so be quiet

you, are the problem

[proud_Kucitizen]

117. I live in Ohio too

and even if what you say is true it doesn't really matter if we can never win an election here again because we suppress votes and allow republican controlled companies to continue to count our votes without any scrutiny.

Unfortunately, most of the people I know including family are Repukes and I am pissed as hell at them and letting them know that by voting for Bush I am holding them accountable if my kids even have a chance of getting drafted or any democrats kids for that matter. Only Repukes and their kids should be fighting this war since they voted for it.

[TruthIsAll]

48. The evidence is simple: The Repukes did not allow a paper trail in HAVA

We have 40,000 and rising election day incidents,

We have 97% of instances of touchscreens switching votes in ONE direction: Kerry to Bush.

We have sworn affidavits of software thuggery.

We have overwhelming circumstantial evidence: 13.5 trillion to ONE statistical odds of Bush's tallies deviating as they did from the exit polls.

We have the SOS in Ohio refsung to cooperate.

But this is more than just about proof.
THIS ABOUT EDUCATING THE MASSES ABOUT THESE BASIC FACTS...

WE ALREADY HAVE THE PROOF. THE PEOPLE DON'T KNOW IT.




IDF THE PEOPLKE WERE PRESENTED WITH THE FACTS

WE HAVE WAY MORE THAN ENOUGH EVIDENCE.

[seabeyond]

57. thank you truth, that is all i wanted, a little friggin TRUTH

thank you.

now feeling the need to get on a machine that makes me move fast

breathe out

telling me to buy a friggin story

i am pissed. and i am an easy going old woman, and someone on the net telling me to shut up

[seabeyond]

58. someone on the net telling me to shut up

as they keep asking me for my money............

telling me why we cant win. we simply cannot win unless the voter can get to the polls, and trust the cast in their vote.......if they get to cast the vote when they get to the polls

[Igel]

87. HAVA mandated 'no paper trail'? n/t

[m berst]

119. who are you to tell us?

The op invited us to speculate. Allow people to speculate. If you can't get in the spirit, then post on another thread. We have all heard the endless debunking arguments 1000 times. This isn't about "prove it."

[Sideways]

120. You Are So Dense You Thought That Poster Was Agreeing With You

What A Dumb Ass. They were debunking you and they NEVER used the word speculation. You are really reaching aren't you. Not done yet unrighteous?

[insane_cratic_gal]

22. Was 2000 stolen?

Do you believe in retrospect that 2000 was not a stolen election?

Gore won it.

what makes you believe that in a year from now we won't find that same bit of information??

You have to pause and wonder when you seem the same shit happen again that happened in 2000 ... both in regards to chimp running for president.

[Truman01]

30. You are going to die when I say this. No, 2000 wasn't stolen, we

had every right to have a recount, we fought for it. If we had demanded an entire recount of the state to start with instead of cherry-picking the three counties we felt we would win it would have been better. But as a member of the Gore legal team I can tell you the election wasn't "stolen." It was just way closer than any of us expected and we didn't get to recount the whole state because we dicked around trying to stack the recount in our favor by counting friendly counties.

There, I broke the holy grail. Flames anyone?

TC

[bemis12]

35. In addition

when we tried to count only counties that would help us, we lost the public support. It was tough to keep a straight face sometimes while yelling "Count every vote!" (But only in our counties)

I think we likely could have got a complete state recount if we had only started out by insisting on that.

[skids]

101. Agreed on this one point. And glasses up to Gregoire...

For realizing that and insisting on a full recount.

However, in NM, we should press on with a partial because that is what we are being forced to do. It isn't our decision, we wanted a full recount. But then they decided $1.85 per vote counted, and gave us little to no time to raise it, which is absurd.

It's become obvious that the most useful thing the recounts are going to do for us, is expose the methodology that will be used in the future to perform sleazy CYA operations by the BOEs. That way, we'll be able to fight it if we ever get the chance to, in future elections.

[seabeyond]

37. oh bull

they i were signing absentee ballots for republicans and throwing the dem ballots away for anything they could find

they stopped people from voting that had every right to vote. they did tons of things to stop the vote and throw away the vote. so you can say how surprised we were that it was so close, but you think some of the illegal activity on the repug part to throw away or not allow the democratic vote was the reason for such a close election

and you are right, if gore had asked for full state vote would have been didfferent. here in lies the issue. he didnt know how it was done. he didnt have the answer. he was working int he dark, just like we are doing now

but what the hell, lets ignore and dismiss all this stuff. and then lets do it again in 2006, and 2008. we dont need to bother. will just let repugs be the only party

glad your head is so clear

[Truman01]

41. I'm always glad to hear from someone on the outside about

what those of us on the inside knew or didn't know. For all the hype about voter supression in Dade it was not true. IF we could bring a SHRED of evidence about it to light you think we wouldn't have? We spent more than 15 million in legal fees alone, you think we missed that? Bush stole the election was our way of discrediting him. It helped that he lost the popular vote.

Honestly, we will never know.

TC

[seabeyond]

42. Honestly, we will never know

but you are the first to dismiss me. well hey, we will never know., and in 2002 we will never now. and in 2004 we will never know

f* that shit. i want to know,to know if someone is screwing with my vote. so in your inside role, make sure we know i am getting to vote. and make sure the governor of the state doesnt run sheets of democrats name to make sure they arent allowed to vote. and make sure when people ask for absentee ballots they get it in a timely fashion. and make sure when the absentee ballots come in there isnt a republican there to throw away the democrats vote and fix the republican votes

you thi nk that is good enough for all of us. you insider, that has all the info and power

we will never know

[seabeyond]

49. the more i wandered the house being the outsider i am

the more pissed i got. so insider, pretty much saying i am stupid, being the outsider, sittin in the panhanldle of texas. let me ask you

seeing all the ways the democratic vote was rejected, dismissed and not allowed, losing florida..........why havent all you insiders for the last 4 years done something. why did you allow all of october watching the republican do exactly the same on a national scale of keeping democrats away from the polls, why did you continue time and again just ignore it, pretend it wasnt happening. in all your wisdom, it never crossed your mind, that all the votes being reject way before nov 2 that might have effected the outcome.

so do we not want those votes

are they throw away votes

do they not matter

then insider, tell me why i gave up my life for 6 months, totally distracted from taking care of my children, and my husband and everyone around me. to totally focus my attention and be aware for a half of a year. to listen for everything...............and give money

to get the vote out for the democrat

justify to me why i put forth the effort, if no insider felt it was important to get the democratic vote

i.....really......want to know how to justify my time and effort

now you are going to call me stupid when clearly i felt the vote was important. a duh for me. and i am the one living in illusion. i am the one that doesnt know. all the insiders better start listening to the outsiders. cause us outsiders see a hell of a lot more right now

let me say

my vote counts. tell me where i am wrong

[Helga Scow Stern]

113. Right F***ing On. n/t

[demo dutch]

149. This is exactly the point. We will never know because they capitalized

on the chaos and obstructed the due process with dirty tricks and the SC let them get away with it. It is happening again because the SOS holding the strings is once again the Chairman of Bush reelection campaign. It's in tolerable that our election system is run by partisan politicians Plus the electoral system needs to go! One man one vote is the way the rest of the democratic countries run their elections!

But the biggest problem is that the American people put up with this nonsense. If they really cared about their democracy they would protest in the street by the millions!

[insane_cratic_gal]

45. But when

the independent study was done, anyway you counted it Gore won correct?

It took us about a year to discover this?

I believe voter supression is considerable this time around in OH. They can't explain away 92,000 votes with no record for president.

19,000 votes counted after the state was counted that were slipped in favoring Bush 2/1 margin.

The 1 in million chance disparity frome exit polls in OH favoring Kerry only to hand it to bush.

The lack of machines in poor and minority neighbrohoods. Flyers and phone calls.. threats of arrests for tickets, childsupport. The 155,000 provisinal votes that had to be cast.

The poll book that had nothing on it. We can't even look at the polls books as far as I have heard.

The list goes on.

I'm not even touching on all of the reports of machines freezing and breaking down. Tallying wrongly.. manipulated?

Let's get your honest opinion here, if you were part of Gore's legal team.
Why do you believe that law suit has no merit in OH?

[Truman01]

160. You don't want an honest opinion, you want me to say you are

right. You bought a conclusion and now you are pushing only the evidence that backs it.

Let's look at your evidence like they will in court:

"the independent study was done, anyway you counted it Gore won correct?"

No, as we have repeatedly discussed on this board, when CNN/NYT went down and counted all the votes after the inauguration Gore lost in every way of counting except for one. IRONICALLY it was in how BUSH wanted the votes counted. Last time this came up someone found the CNN article to prove this. I'm sure if you look for it you can find it.

"I believe voter supression is considerable this time around in OH."

This is an admirable belief, but it is in the end only an opinion.


"They can't explain away 92,000 votes with no record for president."

In every single election there are thousands of votes in every state that register under votes or over votes for president. No it can't be explained but neither is it proof of anything.


"19,000 votes counted after the state was counted that were slipped in favoring Bush 2/1 margin."

I'm not sure what you are referring to here but even if this is true what does it prove? Delete those votes and * still won by 110,000 votes.

"The 1 in million chance disparity frome exit polls in OH favoring Kerry only to hand it to bush."

We do not have the raw exit polling data, we only have what was "reported" as exit polling. This could be evidence that something is amiss, but it isn't proof of anything.


"The lack of machines in poor and minority neighbrohoods. Flyers and phone calls.. threats of arrests for tickets, childsupport. The 155,000 provisinal votes that had to be cast."

These are certainly issues that need to be addressed. These are issues that occur on both sides in every election. Can they be proven? not really, are they enough to overturn the election, no.


"The poll book that had nothing on it. We can't even look at the polls books as far as I have heard."

I don't know what the truth of the matter is here. Let's see.


"The list goes on."
"I'm not even touching on all of the reports of machines freezing and breaking down. Tallying wrongly.. manipulated? "

Yes the list goes on and on, but it is simply speculation, allegation, and wishful thinking, not a whole lot more than that.

Everyone flamed me when I said the same about Bev Harris, and Madasen, now where are they?


"Let's get your honest opinion here, if you were part of Gore's legal team.
Why do you believe that law suit has no merit in OH?"

Would I like to have proof that what we believe is true, yes. Is anything we have mentioned so far enough to overturn an election, no.

The one thing that is enough to overturn the election is the results of the sampling recount. That is going against us, and of course, instead of us accepting it as evidence that we are wrong we are simply dismissing it as more "evidence" of a conspiracy.

TC

[insane_cratic_gal]

166. TC

First I am not a hostile, I truly want your opinion, and it has to be honest. I don't it any other way. I don't need you to prove me right. I'm just not that type of person. When I say I want your honest opinion on something. It's exactly what I am asking for.

I see you have brought up alot of points, Thank you for supplying them and I will look for those articles you suggested.

This tidbit of information: The 1 in million chance disparity from exit polls in OH favoring Kerry only to hand it to bush." For this to even happen in 3 states the odds go up to 1/180 million. People do have the raw data. Just because citizen's don't have it hand doesn't mean Zoby didn't supply it. They were at the hearing as well.

We do not have the raw exit polling data, we only have what was "reported" as exit polling. This could be evidence that something is amiss, but it isn't proof of anything.


Was something I pulled from Conyer's election hearing from statistical evidence given to the panel.

It still goes without saying that election reform is a HUGE issue that we need to be working on. And exactly how we handle recounts as well.
I mostly concerned with how to we get this information when Diebold, Triad, Es&S Any DRE company has contracts with it's clients proprietary contracts to protect their trade secrets, which prohibit inspections of voting machines by outsiders. So far in our legal agenda's no court has ever issued us the rights to inspect voting machines, or even required paper trails so recounts are possible.

Now we'll see what this latest law suit manages to uncover, or attain the independent investigation.

Here is a quote that we must consider: Computer voting gives the power of selection, without fear of discovery, to whomever controls the computer."-- James&Kenneth Collier .. VoteScam.

Therefore I conclude we can't prove it didn't happen. I tend to lean given the evidence that is out there. We KNOW electronic voting is not safe. Why would we believe our votes are safe in the hands of a Corporation that is dominantly Republican? It's absolutely revolting.

It's wonderful to scrutinize rationally, I highly encourage it. But we must not lose sight in the realm of the possible the odds this election was stolen by Corps Such as ES&S, Diebold, Triad, Sequoia, ES&S alone counted 60 percent of the vote, in 2000. Over 100 Million votes.
How many did they count this election, I don't even a number for the 2004 election yet.

How do you feel about those issues, are you on board for pursing change? What are you feelings on it. Again I'm being sincere.

[Truman01]

170. I don't mean to be hostile to you either. Just so many people

have no desire to hear the truth or anyone else's opinion if it don't conform to the populist view. I would be happy to try to answer your question.

We do not have the raw data from the exit polling. In fact we are not even certain where the reported exit pollings came from prior to 7 pm. Mistlftsy or whatever his name is has posted on this board that they did not release any numbers until the polls closed. This statement was ignored because it would put a crimp in the argument.

The day after the election it was widely reported that these early exit polling numbers were released from the campaigns themselves. I tend to believe that. If early numbers are released showing Kerry winning, it could dampen Kerry's later votes and heighten *'s votes. Of course it is a dangerous game because it could do the opposite too.

As for computer voting, we were the ones who wanted to ditch the punch cards. I think that was a mistake all together. We made the assumption that under and over votes were the result of the machine and the card, not of the competence of the voter or their desire to just not vote on a race.

Now that we got our wish and do not have chads to deal with, we have a real mess. I totally dislike computer voting without a paper backup. It makes no sense and should be chained immediately. It is an invitation to cheat.

Were the computers used to cheat this time? No one can really know. That isn't going to happen so prepare for * 2005.

TC

[skids]

102. Lest we forget, Thank you

...for all your good competant work on FL 2000.... NOT!

[Truman01]

167. I think we did better work than anyone has in this election. nt

[demwing]

121. I don't buy it

You say you were on the Gore legal team, but we have only your word to go on that. Im open, pass the ball. Show us your credentials.

You say there was no fraud, but thats only your opinion. Evidence shows otherwise.

And you completely ignore Bush v Gore and the SCOTUS decision. Wasthat fraud? Well, at least two of the Justices should have recused themselves, but didn't.

Bugliosi says it was worse than fraud.

He called it treason.


But you say, nah...we just lost.


Bullshit, brother, I'm not buying it.

[Truman01]

142. My credentials are as good as yours...

And no evidence you have shows fraud, either now or then. The Bush v Gore was like any other case, it had good arguments on either side. We chose one legal tact they chose another. In the end we lost.

Should two justices have recused? Every Justice on the panel, both in the USSC and the FLSC had conflicts. Bugliosi says it was worse than fraud, treason even, you know why? Because he makes money off of making statements like that now. If he was still practicing he wouldn't say such BS about judges.

Bugliosi makes money saying what you want to hear. He has sold a case to you that you want to have. No more no less. We had an argument in Florida, they had an argument, theirs in the end won.

The biggest problem I see in politics today is everyone throwing the idea of treason around like it's jaywalking. Clinton lied in a deposition, wrong? yes, TREASON no. Reason for impeachment? No. * wins Florida by out maneuvering us in court, Treason? No. We took it to court, we won some we lost some.

* winning isn't the end of democracy. The sky isn't falling, and their isn't a bogeyman in every freaking election closet. Sometimes the easiest answer is just the answer.

We need to work for an audit trail, we need to be sure that the votes are counted correctly, we need to look for fraud where it is indicated.

We need to stop making Rove out to be a superhuman bogeyman. He isn't all powerful, and he can't do all the things that are attributed to him here.

We get exit polls that don't agree with the counts we believe the exit poll because thats what we want to believe, even though many of the counts were done by DEMOCRATS. We ask for recounts and we get them, and because they don't turn out the way we wanted we are convinced that they were rigged too; even though they were conducted in many cases by Democrats.

We not only don't have proof, we don't even want it. Our allegation is proof enough for us.

TC

[demwing]

169. Your credentials better be a hell of a lot better than mine

if you claim to have been on the Gore legal team.

Then again, if you were on the team, considering the logic with which you rationalize the SCOTUS decision, I'm not surprised Bush won.

BTW - your comments about Bugliosi are self serving, and fly in the face of the point you try to make about fraud.

If I understand you correctly, "we" see fraud because we wish to see fraud, and because we choose to avoid the truth of our loss.

Well, I could easily counter that you see the manipulative intent behind Busgliosi's writings because you wish to see that intent. There's no evidence for your claim. To the contrary, Bugliosi makes a powerful and compelling legal argument. Sure he's a writer, and sure he makes a profit, but making a profit isn't unethical, and it does not reflect poorly on the man in any way.

Further, I could say that you refuse to see the evidence of fraud because you choose to remain blind. I can understand why. It is painful to consider the ramifications of advanced vote fruad. It means that our American Democracy is dead, or dying. I cry for the future of our country. I understand.

Fortunately, ideas don't literaly die. They simply sleep for a time until the moment is set for their re-awakening.

Perhaps one day we will be forced to keep the idea of Democracy alive solely through the oral tradition, like the characters in Farenheit 451. One of us will remember the Preamble, another the Declaration, and another the Bill of Rights.

In a sense, I don't care to prove to you that there was fraud, nor do I think that I (nor anyone) ever COULD prove such a thing to you...I see you leaping from argument to argument like a frog leaps from lily pad to lily pad, eventually returning to your old arguments just as the frog must return to lily's once visited, unconcerned and heedless of the fact that none of the lily's will hold weight, and using them merely as a place from which to launch on to other pads, hopping in an endless cirlce through a limited pond.

[Truman01]

172. My friend it is not me you must prove fraud to.....

But if you want to do anything about this election, or really change the system, you must do more than wildly allege what you "know" to be true.

TC

It ain't easy being green.

[KoKo]

50. The US Supreme Court Stopped the Florida Recount which would have

shown Gore won....here's the background...via Vanity Fair/Buzzflash, just in case you'd like to refresh your memory on what happened in Florida in 2000...

What are "they" hiding that they are putting roadblocks up in Ohio for recount and trying to totally block recount in New Mexico. If Democrats lost then the states should welcome recounts...just to prove us "internet conspiracy theorists" wrong...:shrug: No?


This is a snip from the close of the article. The whole article gives the "truth" of what happened.


FLORIDA REDUX in OHIO (Buzzflash with credits to Vanity Fair)


A bastard presidency couldn't win a free and transparent election. It systemically stole this one through fear, character assassination, and a wide range of dirty tricks before and at the polls, including the likely manipulation of electronic voting machines in key states.

The truth is that the valiant band of Democratic Congressional Representatives led by Congressman Conyers -- as well as the Green and Libertarian Parties -- are carrying on the Spirit of '76 in pursuing the voting irregularities in Ohio.

But the theft of the 2004 election goes much deeper than Ohio, although it was the linchpin electoral state. It was widespread, systemic, and coordinated -- throughout the nation.

But with a one-party government, who will investigate the perpetrators of the crime against democracy redux, when it is the perpetrators who hijacked our system of government and who control the committees and departments that could investigate, well, themselves?

The news in America is now on six hour cycles. Each day, we forget the morning's news by the afternoon.

It is no wonder that so many have forgotten that four years ago, the Supreme Court of the United States put the nails in the coffin of democracy. It occurred in the darkness of a winter Washington night on Tuesday, December 12th, with an unprecedented 10 PM decision release that elected George W. Bush president by a vote of 5-4.
http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/04/12/ana04030.html

[Truman01]

59. The Supreme Court didn't stop the recount

The SC simply said we had to recount the whole state or none of it. By that time we had dicked around so long there was no time.

TC

[seabeyond]

66. you arent totally true on that

in a very small time, all that dicking around was also trying to figure out what the shit had happened/. you know. people running all over the place saying surely not, surely........what happened. gotta find it. right here right now. with bushco and jeb doing everything they could with all their power, to screw us, making us dicking around all over the place.

how you ignore a whole part of this mess

as we are working on christmas, and family, and having always trusted the system, for the most part, in the past. was kinda a knock you on the ass............and get in gear, with little support from media, or the people. what a month. 30 days. only the five days of the work week. a whole court system. adn the dems were dickin around

ya lets blame the democrats.

[Truman01]

168. What I mean is that we tried to get just three counties recounted.

It would have been much harder to contest the whole state being recounted. In fact the reasoning of the SCOTUS would have not held had we been contesting the whole state. We didn't get around to asking for that until it was too late.

TC

[bobbieinok]

124. supreme court said couldn't do whole state because the results had

to be in by 12-12 (Wed) and the decision was made 12-12.....AND Scalia stopped the counting (some votes had not been counted at all) and recounting the previous Sat to 'not cast doubt on Bush's win'

the counting/recounting could have been done between Sat and Wed; many counties were prepared to do so

ALSO, results did NOT have to be in by 12-12; at least 6 states did not have results until 1-06....like this year

SO 'YOU' STILL HAD TIME BUT SUPREME COURT STOPPED EVERYTHING FOR 5 DAYS AND LIED.... LIED ABOUT CUT-OFF TIME

[Jose Diablo]

128. I was wondering what your game was, now we see

"But as a member of the Gore legal team I can tell you the election wasn't "stolen." It was just way closer than any of us expected and we didn't get to recount the whole state because we dicked around trying to stack the recount in our favor by counting friendly counties."

You confess to being a member of the "legal" team that should have been smart enough to know the score on Gore's election. I imagine you were certainly paid enough, yet YOU failed Gore, and us.

And now you once again come to us seemingly as a voice of reason and say to us, we need proof. What gall, what bullshit. You are the problem. You are the reason the elections are fraudulent, because YOU FUCKING LET IT HAPPEN.

Just go away. We don't need your legal advice, or your efforts to turn us away from what we must do.

[Truman01]

139. Without proof we have nothing. Like it or not. nt

[righteous1]

140. Why do you need proof?

Isn't simply "knowing" enough! (sarc)

[seabeyond]

141. wear a condom and rape me

i may not have proof, but i know i have been fucked. allowed to be pissed. dont need to become friends with you cause i cant prove you raped me. can still see you as a dog, even though i cant prove you raped me. will let all my friends and the girls you interact with know that you raped me so they are at least aware. not gonna keep my mouth shut with the rape and feel shame and pretend it didnt happen to save face of your ugliness

[Truman01]

143. When raped with a condom you still would have PROOF....

Here you have nothing. We have exit polls that are being held as better indications of who won the election than the actual counts. Then we ask for recounts and when they don't come up to our expectations we say they are rigged.

The only thing we know for sure here is that the election didn't turn out the way we had hoped or planned and we can't believe that so many people disagree with us.

TC

[Jose Diablo]

148. I don't think you really understand the situation

I can understand your blindness though, you with a background in legal and a reliance on legal proceedings to solve problems. Let me explain it for you in terms you may understand.

It's like John learned at Runnymede. You see John thought he had all the cards, all the power. In fact he didn't because in 1215 he agreed to the Magna Carta. Now why did he agree to limits to his power. He realized he wasn't all powerful. Thats the way with Kings, they think they have all the power until faced by those that do have all the power.

It seems the same today, with all sorts of people, mostly lawyers, that think the power is in the courtroom or government.

The courtroom is only powerful as long as it serves justice for the people. The power is really in the hands of the people and when justice is denied the people, by denying the right to a fair vote and justice is subverted by a system that doesn't work for the people, the people throw off that system and form a new system.

You keep thinking the system is working because to you, the written law and its interpretation is for the people benefit. You believe the system is all powerful, like John did.

We on this board are trying, it seems without success, to tell those in power, this system is not working if it allows election fraud to continue time and time again.

Now you seem to be intelligent in most matters, but in the matter of law you seem to think whatever is decided in court or government is superior to whatever people may decide for themselves is best. For you, what could be worse than the people rising-up and telling those in power, "we have had enough, out with you". For you, order is everything, even if it results on no justice.

The truth is, if justice is not served by the system, then that system will be replaced with one that is. And the people will replace it. You should read a little about France then you will know. When the system stops working for the benefit of the people, the real power, the people change it. Sometimes violently.

Have I been clear enough for your legal mind?

[Truman01]

150. You sure have, that's what we call revolution.... you just have

one small problem. THEY HAVE THE GUNS!

TC

[seabeyond]

157. hubby a repug texan. he has a few too. brother also

father too. lol lol lol. and we are really close to the border, lol lol. feeling huge ass yeehaw here. so enjoyed, is it jose's post.

be not afraid

or

the only thing to be afraid of is fear itself. (whatever, never get sayings right. why i embrace bush's isms so easily. i understand)

[Jose Diablo]

159. Again, you don't understand the nature of government and relationship

to those governed.

Guns do not matter. There are many ways to make power felt. All the people really have to do, is stop cooperating to stop the system. It doesn't even have to be violent.

All it would take would be one measly day. One days profit is a lot of money.

Right away you say 'revolution'. There are many types of revolutions. Even with a revolution with guns, the government is at the mercy of the people, and depend on the people for obedience. When the people decide justice is not served by the government, the people have no choice, unless they decide to live in tyranny.

Again, I think the legal people believe they are king shits and can do whatever they want because they control the government.

If I were to say to you that it is unconstitutional for anyone with a letter to hold any position in government, what would you say? You probably wouldn't believe me, because those that have letters after their names have subverted and hidden that little known piece of information.

But I think you already know this. You yourself want to benefit by having a letter and be in government for your livelihood and profit. Either that or you were full of baloney when you said you were on Gore's "legal team".

If I were on Gore's legal team, I certainly wouldn't admit it. Because Gore got some pretty crummy advice. Then again, maybe you wanted to discredit Gore's legal team and that was what you are really trying to accomplish by admitting to having been part of the team, when in truth you hadn't.

But we really should get back to the topic of the thread, and that is how are the officials in Ohio getting away with what they are doing?

There is all the time in the world to solve the corruption this election has shown to exist within our government. I don't think the courts will solve the problem with fraudulent elections, it will take more than the courts.

I don't think the court officials want to do justice for the people. They seem like a bunch of rabbi's arguing over some point in the Talmud, some meaning on a word, rather than seeing what the Talmud contextually is saying. Learned idiots, not really understanding the purpose of law and who the law is supposed to benefit, is all I see in the legal profession. But I don't see all, so I have to give the benefit of doubt to those I haven't seen in operation.

[Truman01]

161. Man give me some of what you are smoking....

You talk yourself into a complete circle and act as if you said something brilliant!

You can march and boycott till the cows come home, but if you want to change this election, you are stuck with proving it in court.

Speculation, allegation, and just "knowing it is true" won't cut it and really shouldn't cut it. Because when it is us on the winning side and the other side is just "knowing" that it was stolen, what is going to protect us but the law and the courts.

We need to learn to fight, and when to stop fighting.

TC

[Jose Diablo]

163. I am sorry

I do not smoke. You must go elsewhere if you wish to get high.

As for learning to fight, weren't you the one that says we cannot prove fraud so we must accept the outcome before all the facts come-in.

This kinda sounds like the results of Florida 2000. Maybe you did give advice to Gore. Probably Kerry too.

Are you part of the Dem Party team of 'legal eagles'. I really hope not.

[righteous1]

151. hmmmm I wonder why he does that...oh yea

We are a nation of laws, not of men, guess that's why. Oh and BTW you may find that by being patronizing and condescending to people usually serves to weaken your argument not to mention just plain pi$$ people off

[Jose Diablo]

162. I will keep in mind what you say about being a nation of laws

As for upsetting people by being patronizing and condescending, if you want to say piss, why don't you?

As for convincing people the value of my arguments, I care little about the techniques of debate. People can take what I say or leave it, it matters not to me.

By the way, righteous is a fit name for yourself. Wear it well.

Tell me again about us being a "nation of laws". I would like to understand how a "nation of laws" has taken the right to vote from the blacks and many others within our society. I have my doubts we are really a "nation of laws" or even a lawful nation.

[seabeyond]

155. you .......... are good

are you the one down below, lol. wow to your post. that is so exact. and this is what i am showing my children. and in the wisdom of children, a huge wow. they see, they know. this is good, thank you for sharing so clearly. lol

high five, really like

[hootinholler]

67. Which is a reason we need to push...

Prosecute!

We need to pressure all in Congress to pressure Justice to prosecute.

Our message needs to be that thieves go to jail. Without regard to party. We need to ensure that Congress knows we will accept no less. They must act with integrity and honor. (I know it would be a first)

This will only happen from a grass roots effort to prosecute election shenanigans. Prosecute!

-Hoot

P!

[Truman01]

25. Please don't bother convincing me, take it to court

where your "overwhelming" evidence can do us some good.

TC

[AmerDem]

29. It's in the process poster

you just hold your lil panties on. :spank:

[Truman01]

32. oooh, I get to wear panties??? nt

[zeemike]

12. Was JFK killed by a lone assassin?

The official record says yes
But there is a mountain of evidence that says no.
But if Oswald was not the lone shooter the ones in the conspiracy could care less what you think because they got away with it. They achieved there goals and popular opinion be dammed.

So it is with the elections of 2000 and 2004, the only thing that matters is that they getaway with it, and if it is possible to set up and get away with an assassination of a siting president then it is possible that they will get away with a fraudulent election. And the two are not that much different. In both you need to plan to do the deed and have a plan to cover it up. If you do not have a good well thought out plan to comity a crime then you are a stupid criminal and will surly go to jail
These are not stupid criminals they are powerful people that can pull the strings of many people in powerful positions,

[righteous1]

15. Maybe, but the Kennedy

assassination would be childsplay compared to this, 100 times more people involved

[bemis12]

16. Including...

... hundreds of Democractic officials who would oppose and expose the fraud. You have to beleive ALL of them are complicit. It's so unlikely as to be not worth considering.

We'll see what the recount shows.

[seabeyond]

34. not true

see you are simply worng here as you tell me i live in illusion. you are wrong.

computer company switches which vote goes to which candidate. how does that involve any poll watcher. how do they know what is happening. where do you get the theory that a dem has to be involved

[zeemike]

107. Lets see

One programmer or just someone that can write code, writes a virus like code puts it into the program to wake up on Nov 2, change a percent of the vote and disappears.
One person is all that is needed for that, and it does not have to be in all polling places just a percentage.
And then the Foreman of the crew that delivers the machines just screws up and makes a mistake that benefits bush. No big deal people make mistakes all the time. But you can bet your ass he will get a pay raise or a better job in the future.
Just like Arlend Spector (the author of the magic bullet theory) he has done well for himself.
And Pat Buchanon who did the bush family a great service when he did a hostile take over of the Independent party, he did well too.
And Olly North did well even though he is a convicted lier.
The list goes on and on.

[jsascj]

11. But part of the problem...

You can't 'recount' votes that were never cast. How many people were turned away or were locked out or couldn't wait for 10 hours?

We may have actually lost. But would we have if EVERYONE actually got to vote? Guess we'll never know.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[googly]

108. No need to flame you, you are stating a plausible option.

[righteous1]

5. It's generally wise to get proof or at least very strong evidence

then make your conclusion, rather than making a conclusion then go searching for evidence to prove it

[seabeyond]

23. be given a whole lot of stories that dont jive

and you know it doesnt work, not intellectually, but tell self, will believe the lie cause i have no proof. that is what rove counts on, throughout all his elections

kids play that game too. if parents adopted that attitude, kids would get away with lots and lots of shit

[righteous1]

46. back atcha n/t

[seabeyond]

62. back atcha,......

that is feeling a bit teenagish. do tell..........how smart are you buddy boy

bring it on

[righteous1]

65. You miss my point, could you not also

be believing a lie beacause there is no proof?

[skids]

104. You miss our point...

Could you not also be refusing to see what is blatantly obvious?

[skids]

6. How didn't they?

They have used every trick in the book, in small quantities, which in aggregate added up. If it wasn't for the scale of the operation, it would appear to be the work of a master embezzler.

See my sig for links to some of the studies. This was a multi-faceted attack, and I highly suspect, a completely disorganized one. Local folks just knew they were expected to skim a few votes off the top, and did so.

[righteous1]

7. If they did even 10% of the things I have read

it would be the most massive undertaking since the Bolshevic revoulution; It would make the Kennedy assassination look like a two bit con job. It would have required literally thousands of participants (Dems too) and a cover up of unprecedented proportion. There are anomalies and questions, but massive vote fraud, I'm not buying it, at least not with what I have seen and heard so far

[Truman01]

9. Your best point in my view is that in order for this to work

it would have required the HELP of hundreds if not thousands of DEMOCRAT election workers. I'm afraid this is just our attempt to explain away what we don't want to believe: we lost.

TC

[skids]

100. Not the help...

Just the dumb, trusting, sheep-like complaicency and general state of perpetual denial and bumbling incompetance which is entirely characteristic of institutional Democrats.

[zeemike]

17. It is not as massive as you think

Who decides how many voting machines to send out?
One man and it is probably a person that no one has elected and do not know
Who has control of the voting machines? Probably one man with a key to the warhorse where they are kept.
As an example in Florida in 2000, the voting machines had never had the punched out chads cleaned out and the oldest ones were sent into the Democratic precincts, Now how many persons do you think were involved in that? Probably two or three.
And low level civil servants are cheep to bribe and it does not have to be a direct bribe or even money out of there pockets, but if they know their boss wants something and they deliver they know that they will be promoted with out ever having to have a conversation about it.

Basically all you nee is a man at the top in government like Black well or K. Harris and a Governor that you can count on, the rest is easy.

[righteous1]

24. I have seen no data that shows any precincts were not allocated

similarly to the 2000 election. If machines were reduced in any given precincts, it would have to been done with the tacit approval of the Dem BOE officials which also is unlikely. I think Ohio might have been caught flat footed as far as increasing machines in certain areas considering voter turnout, but intentional fraud, thats another matter. Also the number of voting machines allocated is decided and voted on by both the Dem and Rep BOE officials

[skids]

105. Several precincts were reduced.

Many had less machines than they had in the Primary.

And tacit is just the perfect word to describe the idiots we have working the Dem side of the election system, who allowed this to happen under their noses.

[zeemike]

106. If that is true

Then why in New Mexico in my county (Rio Ariba) did they give my prescient only two machines when my polling place is one of the most populated parts of the county?
Many did not vote because the lines were so long.
Are you saying that the Democrats did it to us here in NM? You might be right, the demos may be in cahoots with the repugs and that would explain a lot why this election went so well for them despite a record turnout.

[skids]

99. First off, I trust Democrats...

About as far as I can throw a Republican.

And these are really starting to sound like rather familiar talking points. But very well, we can humor them.

It is funny how I say there was little coordination, and you twist that 180 degrees to say I claim there was a massive conspiracy. Until you address my point directly, I will not respond to yours.

[demodonkey]

13. Recount is NOT OVER! We don't yet know what all is coming out of it!

For example -- very interesting things coming out about computer "maintenance" done before the recount.

To LOTS of BOE computers in Ohio.

[Razorback_Democrat]

20. To me the "cheat sheet" the Triad tech put on the wall for the BOE

is the most damning thing so far.

Curtis affidavit is a close 2nd.

Statistical evidence is a strong 3rd.

But the fact is that there may well be no giant conspiracy, but rather small conspiracies here and there, like terror cells who operate independently in order to create plausible denial of other cells activities.

Think it couldn't happen? Look at the Zealots that support B*

Then look at the Zealots that follow bin Laden

What's the major difference? only the nature of their beliefs, but their committment and Zeal is about the same

[seabeyond]

21. because of what i watched nov 2 i feel it has to be organized

they were in process of loss, then they not very well went to winner in early nite. was too wierd

[righteous1]

33. Ok let's take them one at a time

First, the Curtis affidavit is of minimal consequence. It's a he said, they say scenario which is almost always discredited in court. They will have twenty people refuting him, painting him as nothing more than a disgruntled employee looking for payback. He'll be an island in the middle of an ocean of people saying he's a liar and cheat.


The cheat sheet is not evidence, circumstantial or otherwise. There are 100 different "excuses" that could be concocted to explain the reason for it. You could speculate why it was up there, but courts do not speculate, and judges frown upon anything that would by it's very nature invite speculation.


Zealots that support Bush? My experience is there are plenty of zealots on both sides. There are no fewer zealots in DU then on FR, just different sides of the fence

[Razorback_Democrat]

71. You presume to know more than anyone else I guess.....

The Curtis testimony may have corroborating witnesses before it is all said and done, at any rate there is a paper trail that may prove it.

The cheat sheet may have an innocuous explanation, but the tech said it was to keep them from having to do a full recount which doesn't sound innocuous to me.

There are Zealots on both sides, but the fervor of the right this time around seemed very intense and has the media locked up as well so they are brainwashing and recruiting daily.

The "Hannitization of America"

[righteous1]

80. Yes, I do know more than anyone else concerning

MY OPINION of how this thing would play out in the courts and public opinion with what is known to this point. My threshold of doubt may be higher than most Americans, but I don't think so. I need more solid evidence to be convinced than has so far been produced

[seabeyond]

19. how do i know it is stolen, let me count the ways

gotta start way before the election

factually we know they stole in 2000, 2002
they have yet to do anything honest in their administration
his approval rating too low for win
even in panhandle didnt have support from republicans
republicans i know didnt go out and vote
dems and republicans jazzed and voted
missing with the poll numbers for months
spent all day and a lot of night 6 months watching, listening
was involved in process here at home
ohio diebold said would deliver the vote for bush
senator said they would steal
kerry rally full and open
bush only had supporters and limited his message

election:
kerry knew had election nov 2
zogby knew
bush knew
karen hughes knew
i knew
started listening 6 in morning across the nation at polls
voter turnout in line early morning, kerry voters to vote
repug org throwing away valid dem registration across nation
texas and new mexico, straight dem ticket, come up bush (this was during early voting well aware of problem did nothing)
voter intimidation, thru court
voter suppression everywhere
numbers not jiving by afternoon across nation
a total shift in energy and feel of election late afternoon
manipulation of numbers
i saw by the odd press conference with bush in yellow room that he had stolen election at that point

i know it was stolen. i dont know how or if it can be proven

i am not a party advocate for dems, not a dem, not a republican. i am a person of intigrity raising two little boys in a retarded world. i am older, not conspiracy minded and dont easily buy into things. yet with all i watched, keeping my eye on this election throughout the last 6 months of it, i am sure it was stolen

i am a number person. the numbers of that day did too much playing around for it to be real

[righteous1]

26. That dissertation would not get you

anything but thrown out of court with the judge either laughing hysterically or just downright pi$$ed. What you "know" is nothing more than your opinion and an extreme minority opinion at that. If this thing is to go anywhere, there needs to be solid, bonafide, compelling evidence

[seabeyond]

38. as i said above, of course you need the facts

and clearly we dont have the stuff that would go thru court. but pretending it didnt happen hasnt gotten us anywhere, has it.

sit in your self righteous position. lets see what you accomplish in 2006. unless the blacks are allowed to make it to the polls, and the corporation has total control of the machines, not going to fly in the future. but you keep your head in the sand, cause you cant figure out and get the proof what was done

i bow and embrace your oh so full of it wisdom

dont think i dont know this shit. i didnt say we have proved it. i said it is hidin how do you find it.

[righteous1]

44. No need to get insulting.

But to draw conclusions and "definitively know" anything based on theories is dangerous and reactionary. Me, I'll wait and see all the evidence, then make up my mind.

[seabeyond]

64. i know there is a god too

or energy, source one

want me to prove it.

insulting, one can only allow

[CantGetFooledAgain]

36. I'm guessing Arnebeck has a theory...

His lawsuit was very detailed on how many votes got switched or removed in each Ohio county. Because of this, I'm assuming that he has a model of how it happened, but I don't know the details of that model. Maybe it's out there somewhere and I missed it, or maybe it's under wraps for now.

If such a model, or hypothesis, exists, it must be supported by an effort to obtain the physical evidence that could be used to prove or disprove it.

I see the Kerry letter, and its many specific requests, as an attempt to get that physical evidence. I see the stonewalling in Ohio as a clear indication that Blackwell and company are hiding something.

Finally, it appears that there has been a significant lost opportunity, in that the recounters don't seem to know specifically what to look for to detect hard evidence of fraud. Face it, if fraud occurred, the plan would have included "how to survive a recount without getting caught". I think they may have been one step ahead of the recount that they knew was coming.

[seabeyond]

39. thanks

this is how i am seeing it too

i really didnt need all the jerk coming on here saying i am lite in the head, insane, illusion, yada yada yada

was more looking to hear what was up. i would feel that they would have done what needed to not have the recount be in the way too

[CantGetFooledAgain]

52. I hear ya seabeyond...

I've been pretty obssesively asking myself the same question you asked. I wish I had a definite answer.

It would be entirely possible to develop a plan that wouldn't require a whole lot of people to be in on it. Elections have been always been stolen. Electronics just make it easier.

What you would need to know, first and foremost, is the entire election process for a state, including voter registration, sign-in, vote recording, vote reporting, vote tabulation, and finally vote recounting. You'd need to know what equipment was used, and what human processes were involved.

With this knowledge, you would design a plan and execute it. It's really not that different from any other process design. Find out how a system works, then get in there and manipulate it. Key elements of a successful plan would of course include how to get away with it, and how to keep as few people in the loop as possible.

And there wouldn't be just one plan, but many different ones, ranging from legal (GOTV) to illegal (electronic manipulation).

[The Flaming Red Head]

40. By ignoring many laws in multiple jurisdictions.

[PaganPreacher]

54. Rovian mind control!

How did they do it?

Mind Control!

That big HAARP transmitter at Gakona, AK, sent ultra-low-frequency mind-control messages all over the world (http://www.vs.afrl.af.mil/Division/VSBXI/haarp.html), and millions of American voters were psychically disenfranchised into voting for W.

After the election, the signal was turned off, and nobody remembered voting for him! All that was left behind was a dull headache and a case of the munchies.

Sure, they'll deny it, but you know how they lie.

Those of us who wore our AFDBs on November 2 were protected, though:



Damn that Karl Rove!



The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[seabeyond]

55. YOU, democrats in this thread

the ones that support kerry's ignore it. dont shame the people

people dont want to hear, so be quiet

you, are the problem

[righteous1]

63. Cmon now, lets not act a a self appointed thread sensor.

I personally appreciate hearing all points of view

[seabeyond]

68. i appreciate hearing it too

made me finally turn the finger and point at you. lol lol lol

have fun. off to do

[righteous1]

72. Either I'm slow on the uptake,or half of your posts are gibberish

[seabeyond]

76. you slow, wink

i am fast
lol lol

[NVMojo]

56. it don't mean jack crap if they do a hand count or verify the emachines

with paper trails by counting the totals on those rolls. If they don't cross reference the vote with the voting log, you have no proof of accuracy of the count. Are they doing that?

[CantGetFooledAgain]

60. Yes, good point...

...and from everything I've heard, they are NOT doing that because they are being denied access to the poll books.

This may be their vulnerabilty.

[Nederland]

61. If you don't know how it was stolen

how do you know it was stolen?

Does your conclusion come before the proof?

[seabeyond]

69. as long as you can get away with it, it is not cheating

you sound like a repug. truly

so

we watch vote denied. (i say cheating. how do you define)

and everyone says, so

then you tell us to prove vote was denied

this isnt my issue, it is yours. i say vote was denied. that is wrong. telling me where i am wrong.

how about that religious group that in az and oregon and nevada they threw away thousands of voter registeration because they were democrats.

think maybe they should go to jail

no, they get a position in the republican party.

think maybe we might do something

[righteous1]

70. So just because a person wants to see some

solid evidence before branding someone as a fraud ,he/she's a repug? Hmmmm guess i am one too, I better not tell the wife, she would be pi$$ed

[seabeyond]

77. i want to see some evidence. why i started this thread

see how you imply for me. i too want to see some evidence. where are we now, what do we have

now truthforall above,.........he gave me some. he answered me

but dont assume i am sittin on my ass saying ok lets do nothing, i am the one saying, lets ......what.........look maybe. find it. not gonna find any if you dont look

[FloridaCrat]

79. There's a S**TLOAD of evidence already -

Why do you say there isn't any evidence?

[Nederland]

78. Is it Repug

...to ask a person to have proof of something before reaching a conclusion? I'm not saying that there is no proof, I'm merely saying I find it incredible that a person say the "know" the election was stolen but don't know "how". Plenty of people here and even on this thread can explain "how" the election was stolen, and I have no issue with those people. However, it worries me that we have people in this party that are not only perfectly willing to jump to conclusions, but brazenly post about it. It just seem very anti-intellectual to me.

[insane_cratic_gal]

81. Thank you Ned

It's just my opinion, that it's not anti-intellectual, it's more a state of passion.

We don't always think clearly, I for one can't refute the allegations that have been brought forth. There are 40,000 reasons to investiage exactly what happened. 40,000 reasons to pursue election issues in OH alone. 40,000 complaints and allegations filed in OH relating to issues of people who had their right to vote underminded.

That's just the 40,000 we know of. How many votes were thrown out? How many votes were manipulated? there is 180 million reasons to question. Why the exit polls in FL OH and PA all favored Kerry, yet Kerry only won 1 of these state. the odds? 1/180 million.

I really do appericate your voice of reason. Your right passions are getting the best of us. It's not anti-intellectual, it's the simple act of trying to organize our thoughts and draw our own conculisons.

I'm quite sure I seldom come off as rational or just, people are still swimming through a sea of emotions over this. I am still one of them.
Good thing about this, I truley hope election reform will be pushed front and center.

[seabeyond]

73. texans and nm can help me. why do i know bush lost

let me tell you about texas. i am in the panhandle, couldnt be more self righteous and white and christian. but they respect integrity. i am the country club. my hubby the new money, and new money crowd, my father the old money. bush went to far, even for these people. the month before the election, i had this town. 300k. my kerry pin mailed in cause there was none in the panhandle of texas, our bumperstickers and signs...........i talked kerry everywhere, and not a single person challenged me. further, they lowerd their eyes, head...........they felt the shame. including the christian fundie private school my kids went to.

i know this area and what i saw, the best of bush supporters, a brother and a father and a husband who voted dem first time in life.

in texas and nm, the vote. southern texas and new mexico had machines. it was found immediately with early voting, first day, punch in straight democrat ticket and in preview showed the pres vote went to bush.

k

so what was it 1 : 4 vote that went to kerry. 1 : 3?

is that voter theft

no one fixed it during that 2 week early voting and one day election. were the poll workers allowed to say be sure to hit preview voting straight dem tick. i doubt it. how many votes you figure went to bush.

any other texan bothered by it. i knew people in dallas, houston, austin, elpaso. it was their town. they knew what was up. we talked on this board

[seabeyond]

75. oh oh oh and husbands dad is texas oil

bush jr wanted to do business with them and they said no, you are a f* up. not a chance in hell

we have the texas mafia

we have enron and all the others. lol ol. we lived it a decade before the nation. ya texans

you think texas had votes taken

[crispini]

74. They did it the old fashioned way! They DISENFRANCHISED PEOPLE!

From the WaPo article two days ago:

"Tanya Thivener's is a tale of two voting precincts in Franklin County. In her city neighborhood, which is vastly Democratic and majority black, the 38-year-old mortgage broker found a line snaking out of the precinct door.

She stood in line for four hours -- one hour in the rain -- and watched dozens of potential voters mutter in disgust and walk away without casting a ballot. Afterward, Thivener hopped in her car and drove to her mother's house, in the vastly Republican and majority white suburb of Harrisburg. How long, she asked, did it take her to vote?

Fifteen minutes, her mother replied.

...

Electoral problems prevented many thousands of Ohioans from voting on Nov. 2. In Columbus, bipartisan estimates say that 5,000 to 15,000 frustrated voters turned away without casting ballots."

The WaPo article insists that it wouldn't have made a difference, but IT WOULD HAVE -- because that's JUST COLUMBUS -- and don't forget to count the 93,000 undervotes also!

The sad part is, those votes are GONE. How can you count the vote of someone who didn't have a chance to cast it? You can't.

[seabeyond]

83. right on n/t

[SouthernDem2004]

84. The problem with that...

is that I live in a State and area that is overwhelmingly Republican and I had to wait several hours in line to vote with the Republicans. The voter turn out this year was just larger then usual.

It would only be "disenfranchisement" if the polling places had fewer machines then normal.

[righteous1]

85. Or intentially putting more machines in republican areas

at the expense of democrat precincts

[crispini]

86. Which is exactly what happened n/t

[righteous1]

88. That would be a slam dunk if it

were true, unfortunately it is not. Other than a handful of machines here and there, precincnts has essentially the same machines they had in 2000. Not only that but the (2)R & (2)D BOE officialls are responsible for the ordering of the machines for their respective precincts which makes it very difficult to illustrate any sort of nefarious intent.

[demodonkey]

90. Well then why were there 8-hour lines in 2004 and not in 2000?

Not THAT many more voters.

[righteous1]

92. 120,000 more in Cuyohoga county alone

that's an increase from 2000 of 20%, that's significant

[Igel]

95. Show me evidence.

I've no doubt that there were long lines and voters left polling places without voting. And I've seen evidence of having greater registered voter per machine in repub areas than in minority dem areas, which is a nice theoretical exercise with theoretically damning implications. *Could* be meaningful, *if* all precincts have the same % voter turnout.

But I question that assumption. I'm not convinced that every precinct has the same turnout. And I'd want my BOE not to assign voting machines based on registration (= theoretical voters) but on actual voters per machine (= real voters).

I've been in too many situations where my motivation's been questioned based on ambiguous or false statements because they happened to fit in nicely with the accusers' belief system. So I've leery of imputing motives without good reason. Before I allege intentional voting supression by local repub and dem officials I at least need to have the most likely explanations ruled out.

[Imajika]

96. That's a bit like saying...

..I know Clinton was guilty of some criminal act in his Whitewater dealings, I just don't know how.

or

We know their are WMD's in Iraq, we just can't prove it so just trust us.

None of this vote fraud business is going anywhere without real evidence. So far, there simply is none. Arnebeck's case is destined to go nowhere because he simply isn't offing any evidence a court will accept (actually, I suspect he is perfectly aware of this and it just using the filing to draw attention to the issue). A person can not claim that tens of thousands of votes were switched from one candidate to the other, offer no proof of this, and then expect to be taken seriously by a court of law on such a critically important issue. The recounts are not going to change anything either, and they never were. As best as I can tell, many people cling to the recounts, various legitimate investigations, and even bizarre conspiracy theories to avoid accepting the inevitable - which is that we probably just got beat and Bush will be inaugurated for a second term.

No major figures in the Democratic Party, or mainstream media, are going to step out on this issue because they realize nothing is going to change the outcome. Kerry knew the provisional and absentee ballots in Ohio would not significantly help him, even when so many here refused to see it. Kerry knew a recount wouldn't generate enough additional votes to overcome Bush's lead, even though so many here still cling to the belief it might. Recounts are worthwhile when the results are tens, hundreds or perhaps a few thousand vote difference, but over a hundred thousand? No way a recount is going to reverse the original outcome with this many ballots separating the two candidates. It just ain't gonna happen.

I see those who refuse to accept reality constantly move the goalposts. First, many said the provisionals and absentees would close the gap - they didn't. Next the recount would prove fraud or that Kerry won - so far it hasn't (and won't). I suppose it is just part of a healing process.

Imajika

[seabeyond]

103. i know first day of early voting in southern texas and new mexico

people were voting straight dem ticket and when looking at preview the vote shifted to bush. and it was challenging getting that vote back from bush, three four five tries. some didnt even bother. i know it happened for two weeks early voting. i know it happened election day. and i know it wasnt fixed

so how many votes went to bush

will it change the outcome of texas, no. so what you are suggesting is we just forget it. why bother. i suggest each of those persons vote for kerry mattered to them

do you suggest they shouldnt care that their vote went to bush

[TimmyBoy]

129. If you put your food in the microwave

for 5 minutes, and it is still cold, wouldn't you assume that something is wrong with your microwave (assuming it is plugged in and the power is on)? Just because you don't know how or why something is so, doesn't mean that you cannot determine through reason that it must be so. If you turn the key in your car and it doesn't start, do you say "The car must be OK, I don't know what's wrong with it"? It's OK to want more information before alleging fraud, but to dismiss the thought because you don't know how it was performed is just as much a fallacy.

[bemis12]

130. If you

put your food in the microwave for 5 miutes and it burns, do you figure you cooked it too long? Or that Karl Rove must have reprogrammed your microwave?

[TimmyBoy]

131. You are missing my point

If I turn the key to start the car and it doesn't start, then there is SOMETHING wrong with the car. It doesn't give me a clue about the reason, but there IS some problem. I can't reasonably say "it must be my imagination, I don't know what's wrong with it" and then drive it anyway.

By the same token, when you see all the problems that have been reported with this election, it is a logical fallacy to say that there is nothing wrong just because you don't know what it is. We have a responsibility to fix the system because it is demonstrably NOT WORKING. We can't just take it to a garage to have it fixed, we must do it ourselves. There is a major need for reforming the way that our elections are run.

[googly]

109. Frankly, I don't believe Bush** is smart enough to rig the election

and Karl Rove is over-rated a lot more than he is in reality.
I have always said a conspiracy of this magnitude, involving dozens of states and thousands of counties and millions of voting machines would
be an astronomical project, and the repubs are not capable of pullng it
off. I have lived in Chicago for three decades and on a local scale, it
is possible to fudge some votes, but not on a multi-state level.

The more likely scenario is that they fearmongered women over the terrorist threats into voting for shrub. Another item which seems to
have worked for them is they succeded in getting the gay marriage issue
on ballot in ALL the battleground states which had to have increased
voter turnout on their side.

The good news is that both of above issues most likely will not matter
in 2006 and certainly not in 2008. IMHO the issue which will tip 2008
is the cost of medical insurance and costs.

[seabeyond]

110. or the election was stolen

so 2006 and 2008 wont really matter.

[googly]

111. Nothing personal, but I don't share your pessimism..........

We have come back from huge Reagan landslides, much much more lopsided than this 2004 loss, and we will come back again to win presidency. You can bank on it.

[Ellipsis]

112. 2 brothers =80% of votes cast? Is this true?

is that Diebold and TRIAD?or Diebold and ESS?

What is the lay of land between the "two brothers"?

Two brothers are not many.

Two different voting systems, compared must have common similarities. What are those?

From what I gleam votes are cast in locals then accumulated by a central tabulators ?

In Diebold land...is the connection to the central tabulator is the WEB? Dial in?

In Triad land Modem?

They step into the stream.... before it gets there, after, or during. Those are choices,
perhaps all three.

How does ESS work? I have read nothing in my search for truth about them.

k

[Ellipsis]

123. update ESS and Triad 80% control of Ohio votes

a lot of rehashed stuff here.

Election Systems and Software (ES&S): ES&S claims to have counted 56% of the vote in the last four presidential elections. Was formed as a result of the merger of AIS and Business Records Corporation. Bob and Todd Urosevich founded its predecessor AIS in the 1980's. Bob is now president of Diebold-Global, while brother Todd is a vice president at ES&S. Business Records Corp. which was merged with AIS to become ES&S, was partially owned by Cronus, a company that seems to have a lot of connections to the infamous Hunt brothers from Texas, as well as other individuals and entities, including Rothschild, Inc.. Right wing Republicans Howard Ahmanson (who financed AIS) and Nelson Bunker Hunt have both heavily contributed to The Chalcedon Institute, an organization that mandates Christian "dominion" over the world. Ahmanson is also one of the bagmen behind the extremist "Christian Reconstructionist" movement, which openly advocates a theocratic takeover of American democracy, placing the entire society under the "dominion" of "Christ the King." This "dominion" includes the death penalty for homosexuals, exclusion of citizenship for non-Christians, stoning of sinners and -- we kid you not -- slavery, "one of the most beneficent


intresting archive from 2002 voting flaws
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Gx2lGewylPwJ:thurstondemocrats.org/docs/ElectronicVoting.pps+The+Chalcedon+Institute&hl=en

a magic number apears in the above article 18181 votes given to 3 canadates

18181/ 11=1652.818181818182 a funky number pattern when divided by 11

It appears that three companies (Election System & Software-ES&S, Diebold, and Sequoia) tabulate as much as 85 percent of the vote.

Triad did The Caterpillar ballot it's subsidiary did the butterfly ballot in Florida in 02

4 big happy families.

more to follow.

k

[Old Mouse]

115. I would like to remind you all of something

Even without the question of vote padding, switching or manipulation, even without poll lines or boxing or felon lists, even if every vote cast was pure true and heartfelt... there was still fraud.

George Bush used government funds to make transparent political campaign appearances for the entire four years of his presidency. He used aircraft and aircraft carriers for political purposes, and used the pretense of doing the people's work for a non-stop term long self serving infomercial. The swift boat campaign was directly tied to top members of his reelection committee, and his campaign appealed directly to clergy to influence the vote of their congregation. The magnitude of campaign law violation is beyond staggering.

Every press conference, press release, public appearance and utterance of the President and Vice President was so full of outrageous lies and distortions that if it was suspected the Bush or Cheney believed what they were saying, even the Republicans would rise up and have them removed as insane.

The only reason George Bush got any votes other than his own parent's is that he violated campaign law throughout the entire election, and was never seriously called to task.

[Helga Scow Stern]

116. seabeyond, you have won my respect on this thread.

I have been reading it for the past hour or so--it takes me awhile to get through all of the arguments.

It is interesting--I value rational discussion immensely, and the truth--but there is a concerted effort by a few here to get you not to believe in your own experience.

Bad stuff has happened to me a few times in my life and the hardest part of it is when other people won't admit that it has happened. It's kind of like the email that Michael Moore sent out a few days ago about Democrats being the victims of abuse. This shit of this evil cancer upon us called the Bush administration is abuse, period, pure and simple. And the tone this kind of argument against it takes is not one of reason, as it pretends to be, but rather, one of fear. Ones who argue like this against the facts of abuse are actually not being reasonable, but are insisting on remaining in a circular pattern of denial.

You ran circles around them, and I am damned impressed.

You have style and grace, and you wield the truth with precision and power. And your patience and stamina are to be commended.
Wo--hooo! You go Texas Lady!

[Old Mouse]

132. ditto!

seabeyond, about your discussion with the 'insider'

People 'inside' the system seem to have a difficult time believing or seeing when it completely fails. Perhaps they invest too much of their own identity in their place in its order.

If he was on the 2000 legal team, when we say fraud took place there, that would mean he, or those he worked with, did a really really bad job.

[The Judged]

122. Florida 2000: an accident that drew attention to election theft industry!

Those in the Bible belt and redneck regions are too cowardly to oppose their dictator, so they don't dare do it.

They accept anything they are told to, because they know that to step out of line is to invite economic, social, political, and even actual physical death.

Republican Party politicians avoided them until realizing that they could be controlled in order to achieve a Dominionist agenda of the ultimate power structure: a global theocracy over total enslavement of the human race.

The reality is that those leading the publicly elected delegation of the wanton moral majority are the most corrupt con men, drug lords, back stabbers, and thieves that this nation has ever witnessed and fallen victim to.

Perhaps it is time to expose them for what they really are, one by one, until there are none left who could be elected into public office or benefit from pilfering public offices.

They have used fraudulent elections in order to appear as legitimately elected public officials in order to appear as a majority of this nation's elected officials in order to fraudulently represent most Americans as wanting of their illegal and unpopular politics of hate, fiscal recklessness, and death.

They have personified corporations while dehumanizing Democracy.

They have provided America with a lethal lexicon of absurd lies that trivialize Orwell's "1984" and "Animal Farm."

They have bankrupted this nation by making personal withdrawals that generations of Americans who have not yet been born will not be able to pay off.

They have absconded public officials from public offices with the spirit of a false prophet.

They have decried that government is not of laws, not of men, but of Gods!

They have found ways to justify blatant racism, sexism, corruption, and malpractice by perfecting a judicial method of blindness that predates the law itself.

They terrorize our nation and the world at large, by use of their end-justifies-the-means philosophy, which repeatedly demonstrates moral bankruptcy and inexplicable, dangerous, and unconscionable means by which they grasp at ends that are obvious fantasies.

Finally, they have toppled education with ignorance by which they rule the confused and defrauded both here and abroad by virtue of their global terror network.

And this is just their way of starting their Revolution, which is just turning twenty-five years old.

Are you ready for their end game?

[m berst]

125. so disappointing

I got the impression that the op was saying that given that we have a feeling that it was stolen, let's imagine and speculate as to how they may have done it. If you don't want to accept the given for the sake of this exercise, then you have disqualified yourself from this discussion.

It didn't seem like an invitation to argue about proof, or about whether the election was or wasn't stolen blah, blah.

This whole business of "prove it to me before I will consider it" is asinine in any case IMHO. You can never prove anything that is already outside of your willingness for consideration at the outset.

So, given that it was stolen, and given what we know, how might they have done it? Not did they do it. How might they have?

[Ellipsis]

127. standstill

we are an limbo.
we do what we have to.
close to being solved, until then
you make my head hurt.

k

the pillow calls

[righteous1]

134. In my opinion I just find

the entire premise of "knowing" something and then attempting to rationalize what you know pretty bass ackwards. That sort of thought leads to all sorts of intellectual screw ups. How can a person possibly look at a set of facts and analyze them fairly and correctly when there naturally going to want to twist them into the shape of their preconcieved notions. This type of thought process is especially dangerous when we are dealing with real live human beings, because innocent people can get hurt. ie I just know my neighbor is an axe murderer now let's try and prove it. So you tell all your neighbors and before you know it everbody thinks this guys a killer, with no hard evidence to back it up other than "you know it".

[seabeyond]

136. "knowing" something and then attempting to rationalize

we can only see in the direction we allow our brain to see, and that is limited depending on our agenda, ego. look what you say. i know something and then i want to prove

for months i watched the build up to this election, i listened to the parties, i watched all the things moment by moment they were doing to steal it. i watched what kerry was doing in election, i watched the people respond to him i watched the peoples feeling on bush. that is a lot of learning first. i did a lot of work before getting to the knowing, which you exclude.

i didnt just walk into the politics of it yesterday without a clue and say i know. i have since clintons impeachment spent massive hours reading and listening and watching. that gives me as much knowledge as someone working on a degree in college. how much time in study do they put in what............'96, '97 on 7 years of study. and all day 7 days a week since spring. that is a lot of information gathering

so dont reduce me to insignificant, non knowing, empty headed. i have given you continual proof of examples of theft, and you continually say, not enough give me more.

i suggest you reflect why, you are so closed to what is happening right in front of your face.

[m berst]

175. innocent people

We are speculating about our government. I don't think the "innocent people" running the government are in any danger of being harmed by any specualtion that we do here about their avtions. If they weren't so secretive, there would be no need for speculation.

[righteous1]

177. I was speaking of the danger of that sort of thought process

affecting innocent people in general terms. However, innocent persons in this specific context could apply to the hundreds of Dem BOE officers in Ohio that are being besmirched for being anything from completely incompetent to complicit in fraud

[m berst]

178. I don't understand

There can be danger in any thought process. Of course people could be harmed by gossip and innuendo. That doesn't have anything to do with this however.

I still can't see the danger you are talking about. Explain who would be hurt by what the op said and asked us to do.

"I know it was stolen, how could they have done it?"

Who does that hurt? How?

[righteous1]

183. just read the prior posts, it is well explained

[m berst]

184. not what I am asking

I am asking you to explain your response to me.

[righteous1]

185. The danger of the thought process of "knowing" something

and then trying to justify what you know by searching for evidence to back of your preconcieved belief. As opposed to keeping an open mind looking and analyzing all the available evidence and if it becomes clear and convincing making an informed and rational conclusion. Basically prevents witch hunts.

[m berst]

186. witch hunts are bad

Agreed. I just can't see how speculating about the rich and powerful, who are very secretive and who have a track record of doing some pretty awful things, could be construed as a witch hunt. I just can't see George Bush as being victimized by any of us. See what I mean?

Seems to me that resistance to a tyrant is the opposite of a witch hunt. It also seems to me that were we enjoined from ever speculating, using intuition, or using working hypotheses, no wrong doing or oppression could ever be stopped. A witch hunt is when an individual or weak group of people is scape-goated and persecuted.

The Bush administration is engaged in some serious persecution and witch hunting. To say that we should not persecute the persecutors reminds me of reverse racism, as though the perpetrators and victims are co-equal. I didn't intrude on George Bush's life, and would be perfectly happy to let him live in peace, and I can promise you that I would never bother him. Since he will not let others live in peace, and since thousands are dying and millions are suffering at his and his cronies hands, I can see nothing constructive in telling the victims that they are persecuting him when they try to understand and resist him.

George Bush and his cronies and allies are not being persecuted, just as white males are not being persecuted. Christians are not being persecuted, and heterosexual people are not being persecuted. The persecution is flowing the other direction.

Thanks for responding.

[righteous1]

187. I am not so worried about Bush etc but alot of this is

Spilling over into the Dem BOE and poll workers and alot of good Ohio people that are being accused of being incompetent or complicit in fraud. There really is no evidence of any of that, but in order for a lot of these theories to be correct, those things would have to be true, and I'm noi prepared to come to that conclusion with what we know so far

[m berst]

188. absolutely agreed

Dem BOE and poll workers and, as you say, a lot of good Ohio people should not be coming under any attack or suspicion.

[seabeyond]

189. i dont agree that they are coming under attack.

i think bush stole it. and i dont think there is a single poll worker that was involved in contributing to that theft. not in incompetence and not willingly. or at least i havent seen any evidence of it. the stuff i saw in texas the polls workers didnt like it, they were trying to correct it and couldnt. they couldnt get anyone in to correct it. i dont know that they were allowed legally to tell a voter if you vote straight dem, look at preview. knowinng what i do, i feel probably they werent allowed. and probably they felt pretty bad

where i voted in totally repug enviroment, the were all sweet as pie

it is like you are making up an arguement as you go. the only people i have seen that there is an attack on the poll workers, are those telling us we shouldnt investigate election fraud, that we are tin foil. i think most all the people that believe election was stolen see it beyond the poll worker

so feel better, you can let that go. we are not going after the 70 year old senior citizens that was so kind to us in line as we waited to vote

[seabeyond]

135. i thought that is what i was exploring too

was really truly surprised the direction the thread went. really, lol lol was surprised. you dont believe, dont come in.

i wonder if it was all just the disenfranchizing, but in my gut i dont think so. this administration brazenly puts out their lie for us to see before they do it. really a truly amazing with the non consciencious liar. look at so many things, we arent going to follow the genevia convention, and they didnt, then blamed the 7 soldiers and they continue to not follow it and americans follow along.

they said they were going to steal it, they in our face said they wouldnt put paper in so we could follow it, diebold owner said he was going to deliver the election

and they did

[righteous1]

138. I would have no issue at all

had the thread been titled something like "I suspect this election was stolen, what's all the evidence we have right now". But, the whole idea of being convinced of something most likely because you desperately WANT it to be true will lead to a whole bunch of false conclusions. I have looked at a ton of facts on this, and personally I am more confused than when this first started. Each and every accusation appears to have a logical and benign explanation. I want to look at the facts and see nefarious intent in each instance but I fight that tendency because it clouds my judgement and leads to itellectual self censorship and incorrect conclusions. All I am saying is try not to be convinced of anything without strong, verifiable, evidence. If fraud happened it will be proven, if it didn't it will not

[seabeyond]

153. so all of this is over the fact i say know

lol ll lool lol. that is what all this work was for you cause i say know.

that is something. hm...........to hang all arguement and time over that word. what does it matter. waht does that really matter. all i talked does it really sound like i limit self. couldnt you have let go of that a mere 20 posts ago

wink

[demo dutch]

156. The fact of the matter is that elections have been a distaster in this

country for decades! Only it was exposed in 2000! The repugs (who were better organized) capitalized on the chaos and obstructed the due process with dirty tricks and the SC let them get away with it. It is happening again because the SOS holding the strings is once again the Chairman of Bush reelection campaign. It's intolerable that our election system is run by partisan politicians who can manipulate the outcome. Questionable electronic voting machines are thrown into the mix making matters even more complicated. Plus the electoral system needs to go! One man one vote is the way the rest of the democratic countries run their elections!

But the biggest problem is that the American people put up with this nonsense. If they really cared about their democracy they would protest in the street by the millions!

[gulogulo]

164. If elections have been a disaster for years

(and I agree) why the hell didn't we fix them when we were in power for years? Democratic Congress and Democratic President - and no one could come up with a bill that would mandate simple paper/pen ballots (one per issue, that is one for president, one for congressman, one for senator, judges, propositions etc) and hand counting with observers from every candidate? It would take maybe a day to count - at most. Why didn't we do this?

[demo dutch]

176. Because it works both ways! and all the politicians know it! Remember

when Kennedy was elected, (before my time mind you) but supposedly Joe Kennedy pulled out all the stops and there was a lot of "stuff" going on everywhere especially in IL and Chicago. Nixon decided against his advisors not to contest the election.

[m berst]

180. the poster can speak freely

"...the whole idea of being convinced of something most likely because you desperately WANT it to be true..."

It is not up to you to psychoanalyze the op. This is hypocritical. You object to speculation about the administration, and then turn around and speculate about the op.

You opinions expressed here are every bit as much based on conjecture and speculation as any one else's on this thread. You are the most guilty of the things you charge the op with IMHO.

Why don't you give the same benefit of doubt and consideration to your fellow DUer that you are telling us to give to the people in the Republican party and the administration?

[seabeyond]

152. kids have 1/2 day, from here on out, is xmas.........the RIghTEouS

joy to the world, family and love and play.

you make way to many assumptions........about me. anytime you try to label me, tell me what i think. tell me who i am you will be wrong. period, that is it. you nor anyone else can decide who i am, that is my job. you cannot speak for me, i can only speak for myself

i cannot let go of election
i am tinfoil
i am sore loser
i hero worship kerry
yada yada yada

i am not even a damn democrat. i see this now, spending all this time with democrats. i can embrace them. and now i say, they are the ones needing support so here i am. there is abuse going on, i can easily see, and anyone that cannot are refusing for agenda, own it

i stand up for the right for our vote, to know if it is counted, ....

i can see a higher in all things. bush winning has no more effect on me per se, than kerry. what is......is. i live with what we have, how foolish to do anything otherwise.

i am hearing from media, the republicans and democrats that we are the extremist out there, lite headed, dissident, whatever. telling me who i am. i am saying to you, and kerry and the stuipid ass repug and christian, dont decide who i am. being told i am not a christian because i dont vote for bush. how stupid is that. and wrong

that i dont support soldiers because i want kerry. clearing throat, let me see a smart man, one that has experience in war, well versed and understanding of the world, past experience. and i am not thinking of the soldier. i would suggest in wanting to simply get someone into office that embrace his smart, and learned, and read.........is a good thing. what illusion would one want me to be in to say, a vote for bush, a proven incompetent, is the only support of troops. intellectually, in feel, every possible way that makes no sense

and here you sit, saying i cannot accept defeat. nothing to me is defeat. this isnt my battle. i know what happened, i watched. it is yours, it is all of those that dont see. i get to sit back and watch, watch you struggle with all the non sense. i am not in struggle

6 years in a fundamentist school, with the one path of love, for all.....after all these were precious young souls we were brainwashing, manipulating and creating fear for, so we would have control. why, because we are so scared............scared of a child. all i need to do is touch any child, with hand, in hug, in love. 6 years i watched fundamentalist struggle in following old testament in love, tis hard hard work. i am not there, yet i embraced their lite, i saw them beyond. because religion isnt my struggle

i have lived in the panhandle of texas over a decade, and i watch the struggle of the white male seeing what their gender is creating and the challenge for them to own it, and say, no not gonna do that. remember dude, we had bush for a decade twice governor. these men looked me in the eye in 2000 and said, i know people that know bush, they say he is a good guy. trust me. all their lives they have told women what they are suppose to think and trust them. and i looked them in the eyes, smiled and said, you are wrong. now i can look them in the eye and say, you told me..........and they feel shame, oh they look down, away, shuffle their feet, bah hahaha. not a single challenge, not those that know me, trust me, cause i walk the talk.

bush being in office serves purpose. all that is given there is a higher. the only challenge is recognizing that. i am not afraid. not even. ergo, i am not in battle. my space, always i will be fine. my space always,.........all is in the higher

dont assume

you will be wrong, each and everytime

none of this is hard for me. universe shows us all. all we have to do is let go of ego, agenda and let it be. what is is.......is is easy to see, lol lol

i am so funny

and merry christmas or not to all

[seabeyond]

154. no one likes kerry, they only vote because of hatng bush

how many times did i hear that on run up to election. how many people got pissed after months of hearing this. time and time again. that i dont like kerry. damn democrats were even saying it on tv out loud to all. we dont like our candidate, but we want bush out because we all hate him and are so mad

i was having sex with hubby. having tons of fun. oooops, he left tv on. news. lol lool lol. and i hear how i dont like kerry. will never forget that moment of just being pissed some ass hole media person was telling me what i think.

this is what bush has done from the beginning. and then we have the dems buying into the b.s.

[bemis12]

171. You listen to the TV while having sex? n/t

[righteous1]

173. Now that's what i call "Passion"

[bemis12]

174. I can tell a chick is really into it...

... when she actually puts down the book she's reading. :-)

[seabeyond]

181. and what, you all single

have to make a date night and get pad all ready, candle low lites music yada yada

married over a decade and two kids running around, do where and when you can/..........wink

news is just not allowed in house anymore. repug hubby so disgusted with party, he cant listen to it anymore.

"actually puts down the book she's reading" that is funny

[Helga Scow Stern]

158. have a merry christmas w/ your family seabeyond. n/t

[seabeyond]

165. and back at you. thank you

family has already been arriving all morning. and packages. a grand time of the year, and.............

you are the one above. thank you for that.

happy holidays

[marions ghost]

182. thanks seabeyond and all others for this debate...

...interesting seeing it from different perspectives.

As Jose said (above): "The courtroom is only powerful as long as it serves justice for the people."

IMO--There is a kind of Morality that is higher than Legality.
Millions of good people in both parties know in their hearts that this is wrong.
All we who see it and know it will have to work to ensure that the laws are changed.
So this nightmare can never happen again.

[seabeyond]

190. not dem vs dem, not repug vs dem

Millions of good people in both parties know in their hearts that this is wrong.